You are right that CR shows the 07 Azera as a used car to avoid, but not for the reason(s) you imply. Their annual report shows only 2 troubled categories from the 17 that were reviewed. The 2 areas of concern were the climate system and power equipment. The 15 remaining areas, including suspension (above average rating), were all rated above average to excellent. That info is straight from the horse's mouth, the CR website.
I am a subscriber to Consumer Reports and the factors for Don't Buy These Cars is based on reliability based on their surveys. BTW, the survey asks if you think it has a serious safety or cost problem related to each system, not whether or not you had a problem with a system and it got fixed or not. You are correct in that the individual systems ratings do not compute with the don't buy this car rating. I wrote to them about this, but they never responded. This is unfortunate because nowhere does it indicate how they arrived at their overall decisions.
So says an apparent fair and balanced review by Popular Mechanics.
The Bottom Line But that’s the rub with the Genesis. The Genesis is a good car that gets nearly to “luxury” levels. But it’s lacking the fit, finish and quality control one expects from the leaders in the segment. Considering we’re even comparing this Hyundai with the leaders like BMW and Lexus, that says a lot. We suspect Hyundai will reach those same levels in due time.
If you look at the April 08 New Car Issue, you will see the 07 Azera listed in the Used Cars to Avoid section. This is based on the reliability reports in their annual surveys. Which supposedly is how they determine which cars to recommend also. Doesn't make sense, but there it is. If you look at the cars they recommend, they only have to have average reliability (whatever that is). Some pretty weak models IMO are "recommended."
Using BMW or any other German car as a quality standard shows ignorance or bias on PM's part. BMW (also Audi and MB for that matter) are among the most unreliable cars you can buy. Sure, the German cars look nice, drive nice, and have excellent interior design, but they fall apart. I would venture to say that Genesis quality will be superior to most German cars right out of the box. Lexus is another matter. Now there's a good standard for Genesis to aim for.
Fair and balanced? Have you seen the other reviews? I am not saying PM is right or wrong, but other reviews certainly didn't bash the fit, finish, quality like PM did, even when in the pre-production model. Hey, maybe PM guys saw something the other journalists didn't...
Oddly enough, the Genesis is priced agreessive, by industry standards. I think it would boost the brand and the rest of the line. Still, only time will tell.
"Sure, the German cars look nice, drive nice, and have excellent interior design, but they fall apart."
I strongly disagree. I've owned 2 Audi A6s that I bought new, a 2000 2.8 quattro and a 2003 4.2 V8. Both were among the best-built cars I've ever owned. Quality-wise, I'd put them up against anything on the road.
Mercedes has suffered some issues with its electrical and electronic systems, lately, however. And personally, BMW and Mercedes are really commanding an unjust premium, IMO, but in part it's because of the weak USD and strong euro.
The biggest test for Hyundai will be long term reliability/durability.
Given Hyundai's pretty poor resale value, if you're not a badge snob conscious person, and if the Genesis maintains its structural integrity and has decent mechanical reliability, a two or three year old Genesis may be just the bargain a lot of people will be wanting.
The Azeras lose about 50% of their value in 24 months, so if the Genesis follows suit, that would be a decent deal.
I have a feeling Genesis will have higher quality, mechanical reliability, and structural integrity than, say, a Gen 3, $11k, 8-year-old Elantra, which from personal experience has held up extremely well on all those counts.
Note that luxury sedans as a whole depreciate pretty quickly. So those looking for a bargain should buy one used no matter what the brand.
Not sure what you mean. I did not say Azera and Genesis will be the same. I said that based on my experiences with the Azera I would be concerned with Hyundai's ability to produce a quality car with its first RWD, first V8 and many other new components. According to postings here and elsewhere, many people are beginning to see problems with the Azera. Still a good car in many respects, but not without problems that a qualtiy car should not have. And Hyundai and the dealers both sell the Azera as a "luxury" car.
Backy, yes, some luxury vehicles do depreciate at a rapid clip, but not all. I have an opinion, that I believe empirical evidence would support, that BMWs and Lexus' retain their values better than most.
Carolinabob, I think the long term durability test will be key for Hyundai. There is no question they've come far. But I do think Korean vehicles tend to have an incomplete 'feeling' about them. It's hard to perfectly describe. It's almost the opposite of German cars. Whereas German cars are over-engineered, and even particular attention is paid to the pieces and bits you can't see and don't notice, Korean manufacturers such as Hyundai present a pretty package, but lurking underneath, hidden from plain view, are unrefined and poorly executed bits and pieces, which is necessary to keep costs down, but which evidence themselves in the way of steering feel, suspension noise, etc.
some luxury vehicles do depreciate at a rapid clip
Including brands like BMW, Merc - cars like 7 Series and S Class are notoriously known for huge depreication hit. First owners don't give a damn anyway, but still good news for second owners.
Shoot, around here screamer ads tout the Elantra is a "luxury" automobile.
Really? Never seen those popped up here. Certainly I know Hyundai has never called/touted the Elantra as a "luxury" auto in the US, unless someone is having a little too much fun
Not sure what you mean. I did not say Azera and Genesis will be the same. I said that based on my experiences with the Azera I would be concerned with Hyundai's ability to produce a quality car with its first RWD, first V8 and many other new components. According to postings here and elsewhere, many people are beginning to see problems with the Azera. Still a good car in many respects, but not without problems that a qualtiy car should not have. And Hyundai and the dealers both sell the Azera as a "luxury" car.
The Genesis, including the RWD BH platform took Hyundai some five years to develop so I have full confidence all of the bugs have been worked during various stages. The Lambda V6 (also in the Azera) is proven, same as ZF and Asin trannies, etc etc. Given Hyundai's fast improvements in quality and reliability, I am confident the Genesis will follow suit in the excellent vehicles we've been introduced to from Hyundai the past few years (pretty much whole line).
As for the Azera issues, I take it you haven't browse the other forums. Understand the Azera isn't the only car having issues - every car is. As long as human interactions are factored in the building process, you car isn't going to be 100% perfect.
There are reasons why the Azera has scored at the top of the list since introduction in customer satisfactions. If this was just an one time thing, sure, maybe it was a fluke, but obviously that's not the case.
As for the classification of the Azera, it's more of a marketing tag than anything. There is nothing wrong with it. FWIW, the Azera isn't that far from a true luxury car, it's an excellent premium vehicle based on my observations. On that point, some of the entry level products from the luxury marques - are they true luxury vehicles? I don't know about you but not by my opinion
Where ever you are, you are getting some serious bargain. In my area, not one go for under 14K, and that one closest has very HIGH mileage.
IIRC, Edmunds did a test and their calculation the Azera has a listed depreciation rate of around 27% after 18 months - don't recall the year, trim, options of the car.
I don't have the numbers in front of me but I believe a current-year Azera Limited (no add'l options) run somewhere in the mid 30% in depreciation after two years, in-line with most other large sedans - of course, this is based on MSRP.
You can't just use the prices you found on the used car lot and assign their depreciation rates.
Just go to cars.com and plug it in. They're all over.
I am not 'out to get Hyundai.' I don't dislike Hyundai. In fact, I am cheering for Hyundai, or any other company, that comes out with credible alternatives to more costly cars, as it produces a net gain for all consumers, everywhere, and provides the incentive for car companies to not just improve their products, but to lower the cost of the finished product, as well.
In fact, to be perfectly honest, I think Hyundai has already begun to pressure the new car prices of some of the competition. The Sonata has pressured Toyota and Nissan, IMO, for example.
I am replying to you because you said the depreciation rate wasn't as great as I originally stated, and in fact, it is.
Why it this the case? I do not know. I just know that it is.
I do no think it helps that Hyundai is makes people jump through technical hoops to keep their factory warranty from being voided. I don't think it helps that Hyundai cuts the powertrain warranty down to almost 1/2 for secondary owners (that isn't good for resale value). And I don't think Hyundai's handling of the suspension issues plaguing many Sonatas, and apparently, now Azeras, helps either. Especially when they resort to excuses such as 'it's inherent in the design of the suspension.'
Again, far from hating Hyundai, I like Hyundai. I'd just like to see them treat their customer base better, be more flexible on warranty issues, and admit when a problem shouldn't be dismissed as normal.
There is NOTHING I'd like to see more than Hyundai push the envelope by matching or exceeding Lexus, Infiniti and Acura quality levels, and BMW performance levels, while offering such vehicles for 20%, 30% or even 40% less than the competition.
They really do need to work on their customer relations as part of that equation, IMO, though.
Finally, I have lowered expectations of the Genesis based on some things I've read recently. I will keep an open mind and wait for it to reach dealer lots and hear feedback from owners before assuming some of these negative comments (there are many positive comments, too) are true.
On this Azera issue, understand just because a used car is selling in your area for 50% of its original MSRP doesn't not always indicate the car has lost 50% of its value. In my area it's selling for about 40% of its original MSRP, can I say the car has lost 40% of its value, based on MSRP?
That said, the depreciation for Hyundai could be better, and it's getting better, slowly. Cars like the Genesis sedan and coupe certainly will help, perceptions will help, etc. Hyundai is trailing Toyota/Honda, for example, by a considerable amount in terms of resale value, but the gap is closing. Hyundai is re-writing the playbooks of its Asian counterparts
I agree with you, and FWIW, second owners are certainly getting a serious bargain on a fantastic product.
hmmm... i was fiddling with the cars.com search tool. i put the price range up to $30,000; one was actually for sale for $29,545. i found about 1094 available Azeras. only 5 (4 of which rotary posted) were under 14k. 1 more was under 15K. a couple more were in the mid 15s. and everything else was right under 16k or more. more than 800 of the 1094 Azeras were just under 18k or more. there were about 70 or so that were not priced, so who knows how much those were going for? only 2 were 2008s; two virtually brand new limiteds selling for $27,999 and the one i mentioned earlier fro $29,545. everything else was 2006 and 2007.
considering that the 2009s are out, the 2006s are closer to 36 months than 24 months old. out of the 1094 Azeras, about 233 were 2006s. around 18 were not priced. of the remaining 215, over 160 were just under 17k or more. again, only 5 (all 2006s) were under 14k. by under, i mean 13,700 to 13,998. as i stated before, everything else was mid 15k or more, and even then only about 30 cars were more than 100 bucks under 17k. over half (of the 215 06 models) were just under 18k or more.
the reason i was so dubious of the low prices, was because i had checked the carmax site just a few days ago for a cheap Azera. on that site, there are only about 40 Azeras, mostly 07s, and all were just under 18k or more, except one 06 se, and an 07 gls. the only gls they're selling. i might add that the GLS makes no sense at all, but i am digressing. everything else were limiteds. they topped off at just under 20k, and all were between 1k and 5k under kelley blue book pricing, which really means nothing, except for insurance purposes.
so if sub 14k Azeras are "all over", then probably that means that there are probably about 30 or 40 Azeras scattered "all over" the entire country, out of some thousands of used Azeras currently on the market. hardly reflective of what a typical Azera is going for. to be fair, most of these cars are dealer cars. maybe the private market will have more of these sub 14k Azeras.
FWIW, since you seem to be hung up on depreciation rates, I did a quick check on ALG.com to see how they rate the Azera and while it is not yet a 5 star rated vehicle, it does garner a 3 star depreciation rating which is the same as the Avalon, Lexus ES350/GS350, LS460, Infiniti M35, BMW X3/5, Acura RDX, RL, Cadillac CTS, most Mercedes, most Lincolns, etc, etc. The point being that the Azera's depreciation rating is considered comparable to the majority of vehicles now by the leasing experts, ALG. ALG Depreciation Ratings
To expand on an earlier point that I thought was right on the money.
If a 2008 Azera Limited lists for $30000 for example and Hyundai brings a $2500 rebate to the table, you are down to $27500. Most dealers will happily sell you a new Azera with an additional $2500 discount (some will give more, some will give less, work with me here), that would bring us to $25000 total.
Now if you are talking about $17k-$18k for this car after one year, then you are really saying there is $7k-$8k depreciation. That is 28%-32%. The real kicker though is that if you look at a car that has a 20% rate of depreciation but is $40k, you have lost the same amount of money. Why would you say that one car depreciates worse than another? If a M-B SL55 at $100k dropped only 10%, then you would lose $10k. That seems like a lot worse depreciation than the $7k-$8k on an Azera.
Dollar amounts are really all that matter, not percentages.
If you think a stripped Aveo has equivalent utility to a car like an Azera, then yes.
The point is that you cannot spend a percentage. Thus the amount of dollars you lose in depreciation is really what is important. Percentages are misleading when two cars sell new for different prices; percentages favor the more expensive car. Great, its depreciation rate is not as big as that of the lower-priced car. But you might actually lose more in depreciation, in dollars, on the more expensive car.
Seeing as how a number of finance companies won't even offer financing on a Chevy Aveo (which is a rebadged Daewoo by the way) I don't know that the resale value on that car would be that great whether it be dollars or percentages.
Most dealers have to consider the ability to obtain financing on a car when assigning a value to it.
IMO a car like an Azera, or Genesis, does not have equivalent utility to a car like an Aveo, unless all you need is basic A to B transportation, then there would be no reason to even look at an Azera or Genesis (or talk about them for that matter).
I don't see any value, or fairness, in comparing depreciation on two vehicles unless the vehicles are comparable.
April 2008 Consumer Reports, page 82, Best and Worst Used Cars. "Used Cars to Avoid had below average reliability." Page 85. Used Cars to Avoid. Hyundai, Azera '07. These reports are based on surveys completed by Consumer Reports subscribers. I have browsed other sites and do not see near the problems that I see listed for the Azera. Bottom line, I was looking forward to moving up to a Genesis; now it is very doubtful. I don't need another car that develops problems after 5,000 miles or even 50,000 miles. Even when covered by warranties, which is doubtful, it is still a pain in the rear to get them taken care of.
Consumer reports also ranks the Elantra and the Santa Fe as top picks in their classes. These cars are Hyundai's as well.
So if these two models are ranked very highly does that make the Genesis more compelling?
Any car of any type can develop problems. This is not a sure sign that any other car of that type will be bad. It also does not mean that one good one gets you great service in the future. My Lincoln LS V8 that was a great car sure didn't make my wife's Aviator any less of a piece of junk.
Or as my financial guy would say, "past performance does not guarantee future results"
About the only thing shared between the Genesis and Azera is elements of the 3.8L engine, but it's been modified for the Genesis. I don't know if the two cars are produced on the same assembly line. Are they? So predicting the Genesis' reliability based on some problems with the Azera (which I don't think have been with the 3.8L engine) is iffy.
P.S. Sonata is another Hyundai that CR has praised for its reliability--one of the most reliable cars in its class per their latest survey. But.. can the Genesis' reliability be predicted from that?
Maybe this will clarify my position. In 2006 and 2007, most all major car publications really built up the Azera as being a fantastic car. Now it appears some of them are not as sure about it and many owners are finding problems that should not be there on a "luxury" or near luxury car. Hopefully the same will not happen with the Sonata, Elantra and others. However, the April 2008 issue of CR also stated that while Hyundai's newest vehicles have better reliability, it falls off dramatically at five years and older. All I'm saying is that my experience with the Azera causes me to postpone consideration of a Genesis until it has been on the road at least three full years and all the reports are in. They can test it all they want in Korea and California, but thousands of models over three years will be the real proof. I hope it is a great car and in 2011/12 I can seriously consider one. My original plan to get a higher level car in 2010.
However, the April 2008 issue of CR also stated that while Hyundai's newest vehicles have better reliability, it falls off dramatically at five years and older.
That is not quite what CR said. What they said is this (emphasis added by me):
Younger Hyundais are fairly reliable, but the average Hyundai of five years and older is among the least reliable. That doesn't mean that newer vehicles will suffer the same fate down the road. In the past few years, the Korean manufacturer has greatly improved the quality of its cars.
-- Consumer Reports, April 2008, p. 21
Also, the article notes that their reliability numbers for the article incorporate Kia vehicles. It is well known that Kia lags Hyundai in reliability. It would be interesting to see what the results would have been with just Hyundai vehicles.
Based on your take on Hyundai's reliability, it seems you should wait at least 6-7 years to buy an Genesis, right? That is when you expect the reliability falloff to occur.
Come on, what's you endless obession with the Azera. You keep bring up the CR ratings, which by the way is a recommended product by CR.
I glanced over the April issue you have mentioned (many times may I add), the only issue from the subscribers seem to be electrical for the 06 model year; for 07, climate system and power equipment. By the way, all of those issues are middle of the road (right in the middle between better and worse).
So this is why we'd need to avoid the Azera? Speak for yourself then, because I flipped a few pages and saw the Camry V6 - far more issues: tranny (major and minor), body integrity, brakes, etc..
Those seem like far more serious issue than raised on the Azera; yet you made it sound worse than they actually are, posts after posts.
Consumer Reports, Consumers Guide, Autobytel.com, others and many owners have noted problems or concerns with the Azera that do not get fixed. I am out of this one.
I agree with you...Bob loves to visit other Azera forums to talk about his problem with the suspension. I have 07 limited with 22.000 miles on it and do not have one bit of problem with the suspension. It's not a sports car... it's a very good highway cruiser. I find it interesting that the suspension problem didn't,t show up on CR report. BTW no problems with electrical or AC unit.....as a matter of fact -0- problems and after 22K miles I'm averaging 27.6 mpg
NONE! I discovered the reports after I was alerted to the problem on this and the Hyundai-forums sites. OK, this really is my last posting on this topic, maybe even on Car Space altogether.
Do you realize the average transaction price for a new vehicle was around $28,000 last year? Or close to the list price for an Azera Limited... and about $5k away from the price of the "luxury" Genesis. Maybe folks who are used to paying an average of $28k for a new vehicle won't bat an eye about paying $33k MSRP for a car like the Genesis. Even better with a little discount on top.
Got my August C/D today with the review and pics of the Genesis sedan. For some reason it looks better on the printed page than on pics on the PC. Maybe I need a new monitor? Oh, I have one. Never mind.
Someone spotted it on the Motor Trend web site. It's a comparison of the popular midsize cars. The Sonata came in 2nd. Passat won, and was the only car in the comparo with a manual tranny. I guess that shows MT's strong performance bias.
My point is, Hyundai cars are finishing well in all the reviews and comparos, and showing excellent reliability. That more than likely helps make buyers more comfortable when they're about to plunk down 35K for a Genesis.
Comments
You are correct in that the individual systems ratings do not compute with the don't buy this car rating. I wrote to them about this, but they never responded. This is unfortunate because nowhere does it indicate how they arrived at their overall decisions.
So says an apparent fair and balanced review by Popular Mechanics.
The Bottom Line
But that’s the rub with the Genesis. The Genesis is a good car that gets nearly to “luxury” levels. But it’s lacking the fit, finish and quality control one expects from the leaders in the segment. Considering we’re even comparing this Hyundai with the leaders like BMW and Lexus, that says a lot. We suspect Hyundai will reach those same levels in due time.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4265762.html
Don't shoot the messenger. Maybe they're right, or maybe they're wrong.
Oddly enough, the Genesis may boost Azera sales, if they price are aggressive with the Azera in an increasingly cost-competitive field.
If you look at the cars they recommend, they only have to have average reliability (whatever that is). Some pretty weak models IMO are "recommended."
Unless you drive backwards.
Oddly enough, the Genesis is priced agreessive, by industry standards. I think it would boost the brand and the rest of the line. Still, only time will tell.
I strongly disagree. I've owned 2 Audi A6s that I bought new, a 2000 2.8 quattro and a 2003 4.2 V8. Both were among the best-built cars I've ever owned. Quality-wise, I'd put them up against anything on the road.
Mercedes has suffered some issues with its electrical and electronic systems, lately, however. And personally, BMW and Mercedes are really commanding an unjust premium, IMO, but in part it's because of the weak USD and strong euro.
The biggest test for Hyundai will be long term reliability/durability.
Given Hyundai's pretty poor resale value, if you're not a badge snob conscious person, and if the Genesis maintains its structural integrity and has decent mechanical reliability, a two or three year old Genesis may be just the bargain a lot of people will be wanting.
The Azeras lose about 50% of their value in 24 months, so if the Genesis follows suit, that would be a decent deal.
Note that luxury sedans as a whole depreciate pretty quickly. So those looking for a bargain should buy one used no matter what the brand.
According to postings here and elsewhere, many people are beginning to see problems with the Azera. Still a good car in many respects, but not without problems that a qualtiy car should not have. And Hyundai and the dealers both sell the Azera as a "luxury" car.
Carolinabob, I think the long term durability test will be key for Hyundai. There is no question they've come far. But I do think Korean vehicles tend to have an incomplete 'feeling' about them. It's hard to perfectly describe. It's almost the opposite of German cars. Whereas German cars are over-engineered, and even particular attention is paid to the pieces and bits you can't see and don't notice, Korean manufacturers such as Hyundai present a pretty package, but lurking underneath, hidden from plain view, are unrefined and poorly executed bits and pieces, which is necessary to keep costs down, but which evidence themselves in the way of steering feel, suspension noise, etc.
The Genesis isn't in the TCO calculator yet though.
Find me a 12-14K 2006 Hyundai Azera then...
Stop smoking that pipe; you are way off there.
Perception is a helluva drug. Believe it or not, Azera and Avalon, for example - depreciation rate is about the same.
Hyundai no longer has poor resale value, this is the 21st century - wake up
Including brands like BMW, Merc - cars like 7 Series and S Class are notoriously known for huge depreication hit. First owners don't give a damn anyway, but still good news for second owners.
Really? Never seen those popped up here. Certainly I know Hyundai has never called/touted the Elantra as a "luxury" auto in the US, unless someone is having a little too much fun
Find me a 12-14K 2006 Hyundai Azera then...
Stop smoking that pipe; you are way off there.
Perception is a helluva drug. Believe it or not, Azera and Avalon, for example - depreciation rate is about the same.
Hyundai no longer has poor resale value, this is the 21st century - wake up
You are in denial. Less than 14k with 13k miles on some of them; even some Limiteds.
You can get a 2007 for just a bit more than 14k. That's some serious depreciation.
Say when. Denying reality is a hell of a drug, no?:
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNum- - - ber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfie- - - ld=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-|E-ALL|M-_19_|B-14000|H-|D-_7- - - 871_|N-N|R-10000|I-1|P-PRICE+descending|Q-descending|Y-_2006_|X-popular|Z-48009&- - - aff=detnews&paId=272052112&recnum=2&leadExists=true
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNum- - - ber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfie- - - ld=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-|E-ALL|M-_19_|B-14000|H-|D-_7- - - 871_|N-N|R-10000|I-1|P-PRICE+descending|Q-descending|Y-_2006_|X-popular|Z-48009&- - - aff=detnews&paId=135917423&recnum=1&leadExists=true
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNum- - - ber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfie- - - ld=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-|E-ALL|M-_19_|B-14000|H-|D-_7- - - 871_|N-N|R-10000|I-1|P-PRICE+descending|Q-descending|Y-_2006_|X-popular|Z-48009&- - - aff=detnews&paId=269086370&recnum=3&leadExists=true
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNum- - - ber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfie- - - ld=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-|E-ALL|M-_19_|B-14000|H-|D-_7- - - 871_|N-N|R-10000|I-1|P-PRICE+descending|Q-descending|Y-_2006_|X-popular|Z-48009&- - - aff=detnews&paId=273212782&recnum=4&leadExists=true
According to postings here and elsewhere, many people are beginning to see problems with the Azera. Still a good car in many respects, but not without problems that a qualtiy car should not have. And Hyundai and the dealers both sell the Azera as a "luxury" car.
The Genesis, including the RWD BH platform took Hyundai some five years to develop so I have full confidence all of the bugs have been worked during various stages. The Lambda V6 (also in the Azera) is proven, same as ZF and Asin trannies, etc etc. Given Hyundai's fast improvements in quality and reliability, I am confident the Genesis will follow suit in the excellent vehicles we've been introduced to from Hyundai the past few years (pretty much whole line).
As for the Azera issues, I take it you haven't browse the other forums. Understand the Azera isn't the only car having issues - every car is. As long as human interactions are factored in the building process, you car isn't going to be 100% perfect.
There are reasons why the Azera has scored at the top of the list since introduction in customer satisfactions. If this was just an one time thing, sure, maybe it was a fluke, but obviously that's not the case.
As for the classification of the Azera, it's more of a marketing tag than anything. There is nothing wrong with it. FWIW, the Azera isn't that far from a true luxury car, it's an excellent premium vehicle based on my observations. On that point, some of the entry level products from the luxury marques - are they true luxury vehicles? I don't know about you but not by my opinion
IIRC, Edmunds did a test and their calculation the Azera has a listed depreciation rate of around 27% after 18 months - don't recall the year, trim, options of the car.
I don't have the numbers in front of me but I believe a current-year Azera Limited (no add'l options) run somewhere in the mid 30% in depreciation after two years, in-line with most other large sedans - of course, this is based on MSRP.
You can't just use the prices you found on the used car lot and assign their depreciation rates.
I am not 'out to get Hyundai.' I don't dislike Hyundai. In fact, I am cheering for Hyundai, or any other company, that comes out with credible alternatives to more costly cars, as it produces a net gain for all consumers, everywhere, and provides the incentive for car companies to not just improve their products, but to lower the cost of the finished product, as well.
In fact, to be perfectly honest, I think Hyundai has already begun to pressure the new car prices of some of the competition. The Sonata has pressured Toyota and Nissan, IMO, for example.
I am replying to you because you said the depreciation rate wasn't as great as I originally stated, and in fact, it is.
Why it this the case? I do not know. I just know that it is.
I do no think it helps that Hyundai is makes people jump through technical hoops to keep their factory warranty from being voided. I don't think it helps that Hyundai cuts the powertrain warranty down to almost 1/2 for secondary owners (that isn't good for resale value). And I don't think Hyundai's handling of the suspension issues plaguing many Sonatas, and apparently, now Azeras, helps either. Especially when they resort to excuses such as 'it's inherent in the design of the suspension.'
Again, far from hating Hyundai, I like Hyundai. I'd just like to see them treat their customer base better, be more flexible on warranty issues, and admit when a problem shouldn't be dismissed as normal.
There is NOTHING I'd like to see more than Hyundai push the envelope by matching or exceeding Lexus, Infiniti and Acura quality levels, and BMW performance levels, while offering such vehicles for 20%, 30% or even 40% less than the competition.
They really do need to work on their customer relations as part of that equation, IMO, though.
Finally, I have lowered expectations of the Genesis based on some things I've read recently. I will keep an open mind and wait for it to reach dealer lots and hear feedback from owners before assuming some of these negative comments (there are many positive comments, too) are true.
On this Azera issue, understand just because a used car is selling in your area for 50% of its original MSRP doesn't not always indicate the car has lost 50% of its value. In my area it's selling for about 40% of its original MSRP, can I say the car has lost 40% of its value, based on MSRP?
That said, the depreciation for Hyundai could be better, and it's getting better, slowly. Cars like the Genesis sedan and coupe certainly will help, perceptions will help, etc. Hyundai is trailing Toyota/Honda, for example, by a considerable amount in terms of resale value, but the gap is closing. Hyundai is re-writing the playbooks of its Asian counterparts
I agree with you, and FWIW, second owners are certainly getting a serious bargain on a fantastic product.
considering that the 2009s are out, the 2006s are closer to 36 months than 24 months old. out of the 1094 Azeras, about 233 were 2006s. around 18 were not priced. of the remaining 215, over 160 were just under 17k or more. again, only 5 (all 2006s) were under 14k. by under, i mean 13,700 to 13,998. as i stated before, everything else was mid 15k or more, and even then only about 30 cars were more than 100 bucks under 17k. over half (of the 215 06 models) were just under 18k or more.
the reason i was so dubious of the low prices, was because i had checked the carmax site just a few days ago for a cheap Azera. on that site, there are only about 40 Azeras, mostly 07s, and all were just under 18k or more, except one 06 se, and an 07 gls. the only gls they're selling. i might add that the GLS makes no sense at all, but i am digressing. everything else were limiteds. they topped off at just under 20k, and all were between 1k and 5k under kelley blue book pricing, which really means nothing, except for insurance purposes.
so if sub 14k Azeras are "all over", then probably that means that there are probably about 30 or 40 Azeras scattered "all over" the entire country, out of some thousands of used Azeras currently on the market. hardly reflective of what a typical Azera is going for. to be fair, most of these cars are dealer cars. maybe the private market will have more of these sub 14k Azeras.
If a 2008 Azera Limited lists for $30000 for example and Hyundai brings a $2500 rebate to the table, you are down to $27500. Most dealers will happily sell you a new Azera with an additional $2500 discount (some will give more, some will give less, work with me here), that would bring us to $25000 total.
Now if you are talking about $17k-$18k for this car after one year, then you are really saying there is $7k-$8k depreciation. That is 28%-32%. The real kicker though is that if you look at a car that has a 20% rate of depreciation but is $40k, you have lost the same amount of money. Why would you say that one car depreciates worse than another? If a M-B SL55 at $100k dropped only 10%, then you would lose $10k. That seems like a lot worse depreciation than the $7k-$8k on an Azera.
Dollar amounts are really all that matter, not percentages.
The point is that you cannot spend a percentage. Thus the amount of dollars you lose in depreciation is really what is important. Percentages are misleading when two cars sell new for different prices; percentages favor the more expensive car. Great, its depreciation rate is not as big as that of the lower-priced car. But you might actually lose more in depreciation, in dollars, on the more expensive car.
Most dealers have to consider the ability to obtain financing on a car when assigning a value to it.
A car depreciating faster does not necessarily make it bad.
I don't see any value, or fairness, in comparing depreciation on two vehicles unless the vehicles are comparable.
Page 85. Used Cars to Avoid. Hyundai, Azera '07.
These reports are based on surveys completed by Consumer Reports subscribers.
I have browsed other sites and do not see near the problems that I see listed for the Azera.
Bottom line, I was looking forward to moving up to a Genesis; now it is very doubtful. I don't need another car that develops problems after 5,000 miles or even 50,000 miles. Even when covered by warranties, which is doubtful, it is still a pain in the rear to get them taken care of.
So if these two models are ranked very highly does that make the Genesis more compelling?
Any car of any type can develop problems. This is not a sure sign that any other car of that type will be bad. It also does not mean that one good one gets you great service in the future. My Lincoln LS V8 that was a great car sure didn't make my wife's Aviator any less of a piece of junk.
Or as my financial guy would say, "past performance does not guarantee future results"
:confuse:
P.S. Sonata is another Hyundai that CR has praised for its reliability--one of the most reliable cars in its class per their latest survey. But.. can the Genesis' reliability be predicted from that?
Hopefully the same will not happen with the Sonata, Elantra and others. However, the April 2008 issue of CR also stated that while Hyundai's newest vehicles have better reliability, it falls off dramatically at five years and older.
All I'm saying is that my experience with the Azera causes me to postpone consideration of a Genesis until it has been on the road at least three full years and all the reports are in. They can test it all they want in Korea and California, but thousands of models over three years will be the real proof.
I hope it is a great car and in 2011/12 I can seriously consider one. My original plan to get a higher level car in 2010.
That is not quite what CR said. What they said is this (emphasis added by me):
Younger Hyundais are fairly reliable, but the average Hyundai of five years and older is among the least reliable. That doesn't mean that newer vehicles will suffer the same fate down the road. In the past few years, the Korean manufacturer has greatly improved the quality of its cars.
-- Consumer Reports, April 2008, p. 21
Also, the article notes that their reliability numbers for the article incorporate Kia vehicles. It is well known that Kia lags Hyundai in reliability. It would be interesting to see what the results would have been with just Hyundai vehicles.
Based on your take on Hyundai's reliability, it seems you should wait at least 6-7 years to buy an Genesis, right? That is when you expect the reliability falloff to occur.
I glanced over the April issue you have mentioned (many times may I add), the only issue from the subscribers seem to be electrical for the 06 model year; for 07, climate system and power equipment. By the way, all of those issues are middle of the road (right in the middle between better and worse).
So this is why we'd need to avoid the Azera? Speak for yourself then, because I flipped a few pages and saw the Camry V6 - far more issues: tranny (major and minor), body integrity, brakes, etc..
Those seem like far more serious issue than raised on the Azera; yet you made it sound worse than they actually are, posts after posts.
I am out of this one.
I'm just wondering how many of those complaints are yours!
problems and after 22K miles I'm averaging 27.6 mpg
OK, this really is my last posting on this topic, maybe even on Car Space altogether.
Has anyone heard anything about this?
And the Article Comments - 2009 Hyundai Genesis Full Test discussion may be of interest.
Thanks!!
Got my August C/D today with the review and pics of the Genesis sedan. For some reason it looks better on the printed page than on pics on the PC. Maybe I need a new monitor? Oh, I have one. Never mind.
My point is, Hyundai cars are finishing well in all the reviews and comparos, and showing excellent reliability. That more than likely helps make buyers more comfortable when they're about to plunk down 35K for a Genesis.