Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    A lot less of those exist than Genesis, of course.

    I am hyper-aware of the vehicles around me when I drive, and I live on a fairly busy street, so I see a lot going by, too. Just not more than a few Genesis have crossed paths with me yet. I wonder if they are selling better in some areas than others.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    I am surprised that you have seen any at all. Don't give up though. Some day maybe you will be able to move to a more affluent neighborhood. :shades:

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    If I started seeing Hyundais of any sort showing up on my street, I'd assume my neighbors were going through hard times and that the neighborhood was on the decline.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    That's exactly it. I just live in a poor area. No high paying jobs here, cheap worthless property, uneducated population...a Genesis might as well be a Bentley Brooklands.

    But really, is there any data on sales by region or state?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Gosh, I'm surprised to see a big spender like you on the Hyundai board. I guess we should be honored by your presence. Not !

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • zone4zone4 Member Posts: 46
    A 340 horsepower V-8 will be available later this year on the Lincoln MKS.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Actually, it's a turbo-charged and direct-injected V6. A V8 in a FWD car like the MKS are not good combinations :)

    The MKS needs this engine as the range topper (est. 355hp, 16/25 mpg), much like the V8 in the Genesis (375hp, and very respectable 17/25mpg - I think class-leading).

    On that note, Hyundai has an even better Tau engine (prototype) than the one currently in the Genesis V8 (which by the way has already been awarded as one of the top 10 Ward's engines):

    Supercharged V8 with cyclinder deactiviation - 4.6L 460hp - even better than the already good 17/25 mpg in the current Genesis.
  • dczarkdczark Member Posts: 19
    I happen to catch, and of course "record" a 1/2 hour review/test of the 2009 Genesis V8 Sedan. It was held in Canada at some famous race track, the cobblestone streets and windy roads of Canada. Three different experienced drives took it out.

    Nothing but positives... Amenities, Power, handling etc... They specifically mentioned the Z-Shift Transmission and other items that were showing everyone that they had no intention of "cutting any corners" on this vehicle... ALL QUALITY... They were all amazed it was a Hyundai.

    The announcer at one point made emotion that when he told his buddies he was doing a review of Hyundai there were "snickers"

    Well no one is "snickering" anymore. To quote him/paraphrase but pretty close to an actual quote "You get all these amenities, a/c seat, rear camera, they all commented on the incredible sound system.. endless list of features mentioned.".. Then he named a plethora of luxury sedans and said "You get ALL this at 1/2 the price... So unless you need a badge/logo (what I choose to call Ego and a closed mind that another company can do better then the old stand bys-BMW, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Mercedes).

    My doctor took it out and says it drives, handles and has more options then his $85,000 Mercedes. But he will NOT buy one as he needs to go into the Dr. lot at the hospitals and fears the "snickers" of owning a Hyundai. He will buy one if Hyundai changes their strategy and starts an upscale division. I humbly disagree. That will only inflate the price and cost to Hyundai. Too many dealers and brands cost money, ask detroit...

    Only negative was the seat was not snug enough for "race" driving... I can live with that, I hunker down when going into turns at high speeds..

    So to all you "insecure" people that need your "status" symbols, please check your ego at the door of this board.

    If I see you on the road in NJ, I'll be happy to give you a run for your money and likely beat you in every category. And I'm "not" a professional driver..

    Have a good day...
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The announcer at one point made emotion that when he told his buddies he was doing a review of Hyundai there were "snickers"

    Well no one is "snickering" anymore
    .

    Well said dczark.

    About the snickers... Hyundai has been building cars since 2005 that no educated driver can rightfully snicker at. Their low end and midline cars are now competitive with Toyota and Honda is quality, and beat the pants off them in value. My 2006 V6 Sonata is the best choice in cars I ever made. It hasn't given me a moment's hassle or cost me a dime. It's still jet smooth and quiet, and the power never quits. (commonly driven 145-150mph by nutty youngsters). The Hyundai lineup since 2005 is nothing but respectable, and provides a good base for Genesis to build on.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    Can you ante up any performance related figures (more than 0-60) for a Genesis V8? Slalom numbers, speeds around certain tracks, cornering capability, etc

    It's funny that those who cry about ego seem to have ego problems of their own...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    Commonly driven? What? Name more than that one incident caught by those infamous profiteering Arizona cameras?

    Even Hyundai claimed the car was drag limited to 137...
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I shouldn't have said "commonly", I should have said "easily". The 137mph limited figure is for 5th gear. In Shiftronic mode in 4th gear, there is no limit, and it's easy to hit 145. Here's a Sonata that got 152 with a passenger on board. I imagine Genesis engines are even more capable.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRL55TfOnJY
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    That's a bizarre setup, but I guess I don't doubt it.

    C&D calls the claim "plausible"

    Indicated speeds are fun :P
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    That's a bizarre setup, but I guess I don't doubt it.

    C&D calls the claim "plausible"

    Indicated speeds are fun


    Eh, what's unusual about making a top speed run in 4th gear? The Sonata is geared for fuel economy, so it's no surprise that you can get good top end speed in 4th gear. It may sound unusual to European car owners, but Sonata's instrumentation is accurate. :D

    Genesis just won MW Best LUXURY Sedan. Put that in your plausible book. :blush:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    I have yet to see a car with an entirely accurate speedometer - it may appear so at low speeds, but once triple digits are reached, at least a few percent can be in error either way.

    Did you read the link? I'd guess they'd know how to make a speed run.

    MW - the definers of luxury.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Did you read the link? I'd guess they'd know how to make a speed run.

    I can't help it if C&D doesn't know which gear to use.

    MW - the definers of luxury.

    I'll take MW's opinion over yours 10-1. ;)

    If MW was the only trade publication giving accolades to Genesis, I could see your point. However, MW is just 1 of many. Hope that made your day. :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    Again, did you read the link?

    I have never really disparaged the Genesis, and you know that. But the "luxury" label is so vague it is meaningless. With so much high end competition out there, that simple term is irrelevant, and if MW uses it in such a basic sense, one has to wonder how much they are observing the market.

    I am sure you would stake your life on any opinion deferring to the swoopy H...
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    You have never given us a reason why you are so obsessive/compulsive about denying that the Genesis is at least somewhat of a luxury car. You don't own one, you never post anywhere else, and you are beginning to look ridiculous.

    Come on, what's the story?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    It's luxury in the realm of entry level lux, mass market lux, and so on. "Luxury" is not a segment in and of itself, the simple word is worthlessly vague.

    You don't own one either, correct? So why do you care? Why are you so defensive? When any questioning of the swoopy H is met with an instant rebuttal from the KC peanut gallery, one can wonder.

    I never post anywhere else? Please, before making such asinine statements, click on my name and you can stalk my other posts. You know you want to. DYODD and research before pointing fingers. Talk about looking ridiculous. And if it is too ridiculous for you, simply ignore my posts. You lack the means and recourse to do otherwise.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Apparently I got you and the captain confused regarding the posting issue. Maybe I just assumed that he was one of your alter egos.

    You are correct that I do not own a Genesis. I have driven one and a good friend owns one which I ride in quite often. IMO it is very impressive. Sorry if you got your feathers ruffled but I was genuinely curious.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    You say:

    I have never really disparaged the Genesis

    And then you say:

    I am sure you would stake your life on any opinion deferring to the swoopy H....

    You are obviously conflicted, or perhaps trying to cover up your unreasonable bias.

    The name of the thread is "Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?", meaning the general (or any) luxury market. Despite your best efforts, the answer appears to be "YES".

    I wouldn't stake my life on any emblem or corporation. Hyundai, MB, BMW, Toyota, and all the rest don't care 1 iota about me or you. All they want is our money. The sentiment is mutual for my part. All I want is the all around best car I can get for my money. The sooner you can understand that the sooner you understand my attraction to Genesis. When it's time to buy a new car, I throw out all my biases and start over. What have the car makers done for me lately, and what will they do for me during my ownership?
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    So to all you "insecure" people that need your "status" symbols, please check your ego at the door of this board.

    How do you define "insecure?"

    What about the people who simply like Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Audi or Cadillac?

    Do you think everyone should be excited that Hyundai created this car? It's a very nice car, but I hope you don't think that everyone who simply prefers other makes & models are insecure because they don't want to drop everything & go buy a Genesis...

    How do you feel about brand loyalty?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Brand loyalty is a great thing... for the automakers. As a car buyer, it has no value to me. All it does is prevent me from considering all options when shopping for a car. About the only real value brand loyalty has is that, sometimes, an automaker will give me an extra rebate if I already own or lease one of their cars. But that incentive has no meaning if I don't like the car enough to buy it without the loyalty rebate. Anyway, sometimes there's "anti-loyalty" rebates too. :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    Please define this supposed "conflict". Not having blind deference to a brand does not equate to downright bashing of a certain model.

    Is there a "general" luxury market? I would say "no".

    I have no problem understanding any attraction to the Genesis. It is not an unattractive package at all.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    So to all you "insecure" people that need your "status" symbols, please check your ego at the door of this board.

    Can I throw in my soul, personality and any semblance to humanity as well? I'm sorry, but no savings on a Hyundai Whatever are worth it. I'm sure my local tailor can make a suit as good or better than an Armani, but it'll still be a "Myron Hymowitz suit" and not a Giorgio Armani.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My '88 Buick Park Avenue makes top speed in fourth gear as well! :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I dunno. A 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic Brougham is pretty luxurious too...for a Chevy! I guess it depends on who defines what luxury is. A Genesis is pretty luxurious...for a Hyundai!
  • rb26gtrrb26gtr Member Posts: 2
    whoa i have a fully loaded malibu and it's "luxurious" for a chevy! tell me .. define what is luxury..

    amazing how patriots like to show off cars that are out of ones league. it's just a chevy. is hyundai in need of financial aid ? i don't think so. does chevrolet have the build quality now than hyundai ? no . have you driven a Genesis? i guess not ...

    ignorance is bliss
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    We seem to be getting back to trying to peg members instead of talking about the car. Stick to the Genesis please - it provides plenty of fodder for discussion.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    Is that a new car or a facelifted Azera?

    Hmm I don't see a swoopy H anywhere there!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a facelifted Azera?
    that perhaps is what the base 'Genesis' should be - if Genesis were actually a brand. Something akin to the ES. The Equus, however, simply a coupe version of the big Genesis sedan we already have and also RWD FWIU. It is unclear whether we will ever see this car in the US and whether or not Hyundai has tightened the suspension up a bit more in keeping with a coupe's sporting pretensions.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    D'oh...the links changed. The linked images looked like an Azera body with a revised rear end and a Genesis front end. It wasn't a coupe. Maybe Azera is set to move up to allow Genesis to move up?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Many of the Hyundai owners think the Azzy is history. There's not much to separate it from the loaded Sonatas.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The Equus, however, simply a coupe version of the big Genesis sedan we already have and also RWD FWIU

    Uh? The Equus slots above the Genesis, and is not a coupe (nor a coupe like sedan). The Equus rides on a stretched Genesis platform.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Hmm I don't see a swoopy H anywhere there!

    You wouldn't find the "H" on the S. Korean spec Genesis either (and other markets); neither will you on the Equus, as you've indicated.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Looks nice. A little more distinctive.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The following is a list of cars I compiled from another forum. Readers were asked to simply state what car they got out of to get into Genesis. It's a very raw compilation, so apologies for that.

    It's a long list. Someone that's good with statistics could probably glean some tendencies and make some loose conclusions. (hint hint).

    Now my typing finger is sore. Here's the list. Steve, if the list is too long or something, my apologies.

    06 Honda Pilot
    09 Chrysler 300C
    92 Merc. 400E
    05 Dakota
    06 Azera
    97 528i
    07 Camry Hybrid
    ?? Mazda Speed 6
    05 Avalon
    06 F150 4X4
    06 M45
    04 Prius
    07 Azera
    04 Dodge SRT-4
    87 Acura Legend
    07 Shelby GT500
    06 530i
    02 745i
    03 SRT-4
    07 Acura MDX
    ?? 528i
    ?? Infiniti Q45
    05 Sport Trac
    06 Sonata
    05 Tacoma TRD
    08 535i
    05 Montego
    05 Outback
    07 Acura TL
    07 Mini Cooper
    06 Sonata
    05 Camry
    08 Cadillac DTS
    99 Mustang
    07 Azera
    04 Maxima
    03 530i
    06 330i
    03 Seville
    06 Infiniti M
    06 Passat
    04 Volvo S60R
    06 Saab 9-5
    06 330i
    ?? BMW 5 Series
    07 Acura RDX
    04 Sebring
    07 Acura MDX
    05 Ford Focus
    06 Passat
    91 Buick Century
    06 Sonata
    ?? Mazda Speed 3
    00 TransAM
    00 Maxima SE
    04 LS430
    ?? LS430
    02 Grand AM
    02 Impreza WRX
    05 Accord EX
    06 Charger
    ?? Merc. C230 Kompressor
    07 Saab 9-3 Aero
    01 Merc E320
    06 Chrysler 300 Limited
    01 Merc. C320
    04 325i
    99 Avalon
    08 GS430
    06 M35 Sport
    06 330i
    06 Azera
    06 M35
    06 Ridgeline
    06 Azera
    ?? Tiburon
    02 Bonneville SSEI
    04 Sonata
    00 740iL
    02 Passat Wagon
    01 E320
    98 CL 600
    95 Fleetwood
    04 Acura TL
    03 Elantra
    07 335i COupe
    04 Ford Excursion
    08 Ford Edge
    ?? Acura TL
    07 Escalade
    01 Lincoln LS
    ?? Accord
    06 Altima
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If it were too long, the software would cut your post off and you'd have to continue in a second post. :)

    Lots of typing - thanks!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'll bet this thread will be at least 100 posts long. :)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I'll bet this thread will be at least 100 posts long.

    It's off to a good start. :)

    I dabbled in statistics the past 35 years, but I'm too tired from making the list to massage the numbers.

    I would love to have a Genesis, and if I purchased one, I would trade a 2006 Sonata (probably sell it privately). I see there are quite a few 2006+ Sonatas and Azeras on the list. If they're like me, they have built up a trust in their cars, and have no reservations about buying the more expensive Genesis.

    I see a surprising number of BMW's there, but mostly older models.

    I see several newer expensive cars, and I suspect some were swapped to cash in, getting the Genesis for little money out of pocket.
  • sandy25sandy25 Member Posts: 65
    nice job, bobad. one quick observation: The Genesisi is bringing many new buyers to the Hyundai brand with minimum "canibilization" of their existing models. Also, the main source of business for the Genersis is not from luxury car owners. It's from a very broad segment of the auto market...which supports the position that the Genesis was not designed to compete in the luxury segment but to be a halo car for the Hyundai brand. .
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The Genesisi is bringing many new buyers to the Hyundai brand with minimum "canibilization" of their existing models.

    True.

    According to the poll (where I gathered my list) a lot of Genesis owners were persuaded to buy after a test drive. The car is very seductive, and impresses everyone who drives it. If I were a Genesis dealer, I would advertise free donuts and coffee for taking a drive.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I've heard from multiple owners after taking the test drive, they signed right away on the dotted line - certainly they didn't sleep on it ;)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I've heard from multiple owners after taking the test drive, they signed right away on the dotted line - certainly they didn't sleep on it

    I've been wanting to take a test drive, but I don't think I'll risk it. I just don't need a new car right now. Maybe I'll just go sit in one. I don't think just sitting in it can put a whammy on me, but just in case, I'll leave my wallet home.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    Brand loyalty is a great thing... for the automakers. As a car buyer, it has no value to me. All it does is prevent me from considering all options when shopping for a car. About the only real value brand loyalty has is that, sometimes, an automaker will give me an extra rebate if I already own or lease one of their cars. But that incentive has no meaning if I don't like the car enough to buy it without the loyalty rebate. Anyway, sometimes there's "anti-loyalty" rebates too.

    What about brand loyalty is with other products? For example, some people only like a certain type of after-market radio for their cars. Some women only like a certain brand of makeup. Many runners prefer a certain brand of running shoe. Brand loyalty exists in all types of products, ranging from electronics, toothpaste, to motorcycles, etc. etc. etc. Some people have a brand somewhere of some sort that they are loyal too...

    But when it comes to cars it's a different ballgame?

    Since you're not loyal to a specific automaker, is it safe to say that if another car maker comes out with a car similar to the Genesis that's more luxurious, better looking, wins MTCY and thousands of dollars cheaper than the Genesis you will abandon this board and be on that message board talking about how great it is? :P
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I can't speak for Backy, but I think you have brand loyalty confused with meeting customer requirements. They are way different.

    People that are brand loyal tend to stick with a brand regardless of whether quality or usability have slipped. People that are not brand loyal will constantly evaluate cars, and choose the best car for himself regardless of brand.

    I'm no psychologist, but I think brand loyal people tend to think of automobiles in human terms. They may name their car, or call it "she" for example. They may say they "love" their car, and feel they are cheating on it if they consider buying another brand. Believe me, a machine or manufacturer will never return those tender sentiments!

    Manufacturers are well aware of brand loyalty, and take advantage of it. For example, a 740 costs twice as much as a Genesis. I will guarantee you that a 740 doesn't cost twice as much to manufacture as a Genesis! Toyota Camry costs ~6K more than a comparable Sonata, and I would bet you their manufacturing costs are nearly identical. Why the $6K premium? I attribute most of it to brand loyalty.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,247
    I don't know if you are trying to mention the BMW 740, but it's an obsolete model now in the states. With how the upper end is depreciating in this "crisis", you can get one cheaper than a Genesis no problem ;)

    I am sure a RR Phantom doesn't cost 350K more to make than an Accent either...but, you pay extra to get extra. Some of that extra will be brand cachet.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    People that are brand loyal tend to stick with a brand regardless of whether quality or usability have slipped. People that are not brand loyal will constantly evaluate cars, and choose the best car for himself regardless of brand.

    Well said. But IMO brand loyalty is not related to people personifying their cars. I have in the past named some of my cars (no current cars have a name, however) and I have been known to say "I love my car" on occasion, as much as one can love a depreciating hunk of metal, plastic, and rubber.

    And someday, if some car maker comes out with a car that is more luxurious, better looking, has more features, drives better, and costs thousands less than the Genesis, it is certainly a car I'd have to take a close look at when I'm in the market for such a car.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - -------------------------------------
    Current bands owned: Chrysler, Hyundai, Mazda, VW
    Owned/leased in the past: Chevrolet, Mercury, Toyota (multiple), Honda (multiple), Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Dodge (multiple), Mazda (multiple), Nissan (multiple), BMW
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