GM News, New Models and Market Share

circlew · May 2009

Which makes me wonder why, if the Gov't is intent on "saving" GM, they just didn't try to strike a deal with the bondholders months ago, say by putting some of the TARP funds in an escrow and say "look, here's your money, safe and sound. Just back off (for, say 24 months for arguments sake), let GM get their house in order, let's all get through this mess together, and THEN GM can start paying you back, with interest."

Because they want to rip off the bondholders and it did not work. They figured they would break at the 11th hour.

Another gamble that looks like it came from the GM board of old except now it's the BO Team!

We'll, congrats to the taxpayers on their new auto company! :surprise:

Regards,
OW

imidazol97 · May 2009

As the GM goes to bankruptcy have the Obama handlers selected GM dealers to close based on Republican and Democrat ties as done in Chrysler closings?

Interesting reading. Surely they wouldn't be playing politics with the economy..., would they?

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Furor-grows- - -over-partisan-car-dealer-closings-46261447.html

Follow some of the embedded links for more interesting reading.

xrunner2 · May 2009

Ever since the Volt was announced, it seems as though companies have been tripping all over themselves to come up with a better battery pack, in hopes of landing a contract with one of the mfrs. Maybe this will help lower the price of the technology.

Article in yesterday's WSJ on page B4 says that Chinese company BYD is launching a plug-in car ahead of more established foreign rivals. BYD has capability to manufacture batteries with iron-phosphate based lithium technology. These batteries are about half the cost of similar batteries made in Japan and the West. VW AG said it is exploring options for teaming up with BYD on hybrid and electric vehicles powered by lithium batteries.

Article had no mention of GM nor Volt.

lemko · May 2009

Isn't BYD that company that makes fake Bimmers?

Even the badge is a ripoff of BMW.

xrunner2 · May 2009

Aside from the fact GM has nothing I want, other than a Corvette. Wife says I am too old for one.

One is never too old for a Corvette. Just put on a Hawaian shirt, gold chain around neck, wrap-around designer sun glasses, knee length jeans, sneakers. :P Can use this year-round in SoCal.

And, of course age is a plus in owning any Cadillac. :P

However GM evolves in coming months, there will "always" be demand/desire for Corvettes and Cadillacs.

lemko · May 2009

I'm only 44 and I have a Cadillac! One is never too young to own a Cadillac if one has the means! I bought my first new Cadillac when I was 24!

xrunner2 · May 2009

Isn't BYD that company that makes fake Bimmers?

But, maybe the new GM might buy batteries from them in the future for cars (Cadillacs?) that it makes in China and exports to the US.

anythngbutgm · May 2009

Don't foget the "Members Only" Jacket, and the "point and wink" introduction.

Giggidy Giggidy

imidazol97 · May 2009

>that was an article from 4 months ago,

the only date I see is March 11. Is that 4 months?

>Were you just trying to create a panic sell so you could get a better stock price?

Hardly. I bought 100,000 in Feb at around $2. It looks like $5.25 now.

bpizzuti · May 2009

hey, if it's good enough for the elephant, it's good enough for the donkey. That's BAU is Washington...if you must hurt someone, make sure to hurt the other party rather than your own.

dave8697 · May 2009

They are one of the many factors. I was the one whose job was sent out of the US. Mitsu took away our business with a low cost product made in a non union factory in Maysville, KY. If it wasn't Mitsu then it would have been some other foreign company posing as American. I didn't even enter into the American auto industry until the decline was in full swing, and that was over 15 yrs ago. I went to work for a company that decided in 1981 that the UAW had to go. It took 28 years and BK a day or two away, and they still can't get a wage concession from the UAW. I really like the idea of the UAW owning 70% of GM. Now they will be their own boss. Breaks reduced from 48 mins down to 40 mins for an 8 hr shift is a concession. Wow.

I stopped at a Honda dealer and saw a Civic 4 dr. sedan for just under $20k sticker. A 1.8 liter engine and an automatic. It said over 60% foreign content. Transmission was from Japan. Car assembled in Canada. Engine from Canada. The car costs far more than it's lifetime fuel cost. Send $12k to Japan to avoid a few $k for Mexican Oil? Not America's solution.

bpizzuti · May 2009

Ever sat in that Civic? They're put together like swiss watches and it feels like it. I got in one right after trying a Cobalt...it was the difference between Acme generic frozen pizza and Pizzeria Uno.

Caveat: I didn't drive the Civic. But just sitting in there and comparing the interior material quality, fit/finish, panel fit, control positioning, etc, etc...a lot of Chevys feel like some go-kart built in someone's backyard.

lemko · May 2009

The best pizza is usually from your neighborhood pizzeria!

Forget frozen or chains! :sick:

bpizzuti · May 2009

Well, the neighborhood pizzeria would have been an Acura or Infiniti...Hondas aren't quite THAT good interior-wise. :shades: They're just a whole lot better than Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn...etc, etc.

If we were talking Chrysler, then we'd be talking about pizza-shaped bird droppings.

stever · May 2009

The best pizza is from my kitchen - bread machines are great for cranking out dough painlessly.

I can't put together a decent car in my garage however. But it would be nice to be able to call up the factory and assemble one exactly the way I want it without having to take a whole package just to get, say, a sunroof. Half mushroom, half pepperoni, no problem. Heated seats? Got to get the NAV and towing package for that.

The bondholders get another carrot:

"A committee of General Motors' bondholders, after soundly rejecting an earlier debt-for-equity swap by the automaker, has accepted a sweetened deal backed by the U.S. government that paves the way for a quick pre-packaged bankruptcy a la Chrysler's, CNBC reported."

GM Bondholders Committee Accepts Sweetened Deal; Chrysler-Style Bankruptcy Next (AutoObserver)

stever · May 2009

"Ford is on pace to overtake General Motors this year as the top North American producer of vehicles, according to a forecast by IHS Global Insight.

Ford, which has been No. 2 for decades, gets a boost from GM idling its plants in the next couple of months to produce an estimated 1.7 million vehicles in North America this year."

Ford Set To Pass GM in North American Production (AutoObserver)

nvbanker · May 2009

Well, as much as I've been pulling for GM over the past year to succeed, I have to admit that I don't want a car from Government Motors....therefore, it's highly unlikely I'll buy a new GM car anytime soon. Chrysler is already out of the question. That leaves Ford or an import...... I already like Ford and Toyota, so ......

Why, you ask? Because I don't want a car made by or backed by the same folks that run my Department of Motor Vehicles!! Not exactly comforting....

bpizzuti · May 2009

This should have happened long ago. But this is why GM was always chasing market share instead of profitability. it took 12 brands and selling most cars at a loss to do it, but they did manage to hold on to #1 longer than they should have.

I hear the new domestic manufacturing standings will go something like this:

1 - Ford
2 - Toyota
3 - Honda
4 - Subaru
5 - Tesla
6 - Saleen
7 - The guy in his backyard rebuilding a 69 Mustang
8 - GM
9 - Chrysler

iwant12 · May 2009

My vote's for # 7!

dave8697 · May 2009

Ever sat in a civic?

Yes but not a late model. They are much improved in the last 10 years. They even put on a few hundred lbs. I don't know about 34.4 inches of rear leg room though. You could fit a frozen pizza back there.

Fortunately for me, I can get a Malibu for less than a Civic, So I can enjoy the interior material quality, fit/finish, panel fit, control positioning, etc, and have space and 1000 lbs more engine, tranny, protection, and sound deadening, and an exterior every bit as refined as a TL, make good use of America's college grads, and have something left over. My 5' 11" son fits fine in the back of the Malibu.

cadillacmike · May 2009

I bought my first Cadillac when i was 18. It wasn't new - took me 24 more years to actually buy a current model year one, but the misses and i have 3 now (crashed my beloved Fleetwood just before getting sent to afghanistan- but I'll buy another when i get back!). She likes the new ones (like her CTS) and i like the late 60's up to 70-71 ones!

That and 1995-96 Fleetwoods!

Corvettes new, used and vintage, are all far too overpriced in my considered opinion. :mad:

I was considering getting her a Saturn Sky or Pontiac Solstice, but if those two brands are going away, I'll guess i'll have to keep my El Dorado custom hard boot convertible for a few more years until I can get a CTS convertible conversion. I'm not old enough yet for the DTS convertibles :P

cadillacmike · May 2009

One of the giggest problems in the whole fuel economy smoke and mirrors act is tha fact that SUV, and pickup trucks are NOT considered to be cars in the fuel economy laws / regulations, even though the vast majority of these veichles are bought and used as cars.

That was probably some automakers behind the scenes deal with the feds way back. It allowed them to not put any money into fuel efficiency, and make a killing on trucks bought and used as cars, but the past few years have blown that business model out of the water.

The public is partly to blame, if they weren't so eager to buy these monstrosities, the US automakers would have been forced to kick up their R&D earlier, but noo, they were caught napping as was the case back in the mid 70s and 80's.

bpizzuti · May 2009

So I can enjoy the interior material quality, fit/finish, panel fit, control positioning, etc,

You wouldn't say that about the Malibu if you had sat in a late model Civic. I don't even quite say that about my Mazda...Civic's interior material quality is noticeably better: I like the Mazda because it's got a hatch and Civic doesn't. There's comparing honestly, and then they're lying to oneself to make oneself feel better about one's purchase.

Why not say you get more legroom and a bigger engine and leave it at that? It's a valid argument, after all. The rest...just sounds a bit silly.

colloquor · May 2009

I don't know about the interior quality of the Civic. I spent a week in Orlando in February with a rental 2009 Civic EX sedan with 8K miles on the clock, and although nice, hard, and somewhat shiny, plastics abound within the interior. Frankly, the interior of my son's 2009 Mazda3 Grand Touring hatchback is nicer than that of the Civic EX. Also, the poster on the new Malibu has a point... go take a look at a new Malibu, sit in it, and take one out for a test drive - you might just be impressed.

imidazol97 · May 2009

> It's a valid argument, after all. The rest...just sounds a bit silly.

I disagree that making his point was "silly." Have you read how people write comments about GM vehicles that are totally negative in "silly" ways?

I don't recall the back seat room in the Civic that was in the showroom I visited two winters back. I sat in several Accords and was unimpressed with the quality of plastics, which I had expected from reading posts by fans to be much nicer than my Buick even. But I agree with bpizzuti's point that the Civic isn't as bad as it was expected. AFter sitting in Accords, I got the Civic and it was actually better than the Accords. Fit and finish seemed better. ----------But it was an SI model. The only Civic inside was an Si so I don't know how the standard Civics were. I didn't want to go outside and sit in cold Civics and didn't want to bother the pleasant salesman whom I had told I was just wanting to look over the cars and I wasn't a buyer for the next several months at the least.

bpizzuti · May 2009

I've seen the interior and exterior...the interior is improved from the past but still classic GM (meaning more hard shiny plastics). The exterior...really don't like the front end much. Can't speak to how it drives, though GM engines tend to be fairly reliable and have a nice torquey feel to them.

Here's the whole problem with the Malibu. Is it impressive for a GM? yes, especially so, it's a huge improvement. Is it an impressive midsize car? Only somewhat...it's better than several, but Fusion and Sonata beat it. Possibly Altima too, depends on what you're looking for in a vehicle. This is skipping the usual Camry which I don't like, but probably beats it in many minds as well. GM needed a world-beater there and didn't get it. I think part of the problem is the same problem Chrysler has and Ford used to have: they use themselves as benchmarks (be better than the last car we made) rather than the competition (let's make a car that's better than Camry in every respect!).

bpizzuti · May 2009

I peeked in both, the interiors were the same. Not so much legroom, true, but what do you expect in a compact?

I'm not real sure what they were thinking with the new Accord...saw that too, and I also liked the Civic better. It's really got a premium feel to it, something many other cars, including Toyota and Nissan as well as GM, seem to lack. That's not everything to everyone but it stuck out for me.

I also think Ford aimed for some of that with their newer vehicles like Fusion and Edge..I got the same feeling from sitting in them (this was last year, before the 2010 Fusion).

m4d_cow · May 2009

Aside from the fact GM has nothing I want, other than a Corvette. Wife says I am too old for one.

Hey at least GM still has one thing you'd want. Too old for a Vette? Hell no. Forget the gold chains and any of those cheesy cliches. Buy one in elegant color, maroon, black, grey, for example, and skip the chrome wheels, get alloy ones. Dress up in semi formal way or at least a nice t-shirt and you're set. Just remember, skip the gold chains AND the chrome wheels. :shades:

m4d_cow · May 2009

go take a look at a new Malibu, sit in it, and take one out for a test drive - you might just be impressed.

I did, and I would've been impressed if I didn't test Nissan Altima, Honda Civic-Accord and Toyota Camry first. The quality is far beyond the last gen's, and it's cavernous inside. However that's it, it wins in no other category. Materials, Hon-Toy wins big time, Chevy really need to think of better plastic quality (though at least it's less shiny now). Fit-finish, above Camry's but behind everything else. Ride, Camry wins, handling, Nissan wins.

How's Malibu to ever lead if they can't even keep up with competitors? And now that the new Fusion and Mazda6 are already in the market (both totally kill the Malibu in every category), the Malibu takes the backseat on my list.

andre1969 · May 2009

How's Malibu to ever lead if they can't even keep up with competitors? And now that the new Fusion and Mazda6 are already in the market (both totally kill the Malibu in every category), the Malibu takes the backseat on my list.

The main thing that kills the Malibu (and Aura) for me is the back seat. I don't care what the published specs say, but when I sit back there, it's worse than the Camry, Altima, Accord, and Fusion. I'd say it's better than the Sebring/Avenger, but that's not saying much. And I can't remember how the Mazda6 felt, but it didn't impress me overall, anyway. Can't put my finger on why, but I just remember that I didn't like it.

Now it's not that often that I have to ride in the back seat of my own car, but I don't like a car where I can feel the back seat passengers putting their knees into my seatback. And I do still like the Malibu and Aura. However, I think if I was going to get a car in this class, I might go for an Altima or Accord first...unless I could get a deal too good to pass up on an Aura/Malibu!

xrunner2 · May 2009

The main thing that kills the Malibu (and Aura) for me is the back seat.

Back seats are mainly for kids. How many owners of sedans have adults in back seat on frequent or regular basis. If they do, maybe they have the wrong vehicle and should get a minvan or crossover. Adults in back are usually very occasional.

andre1969 · May 2009

Back seats are mainly for kids. How many owners of sedans have adults in back seat on frequent or regular basis. If they do, maybe they have the wrong vehicle and should get a minvan or crossover. Adults in back are usually very occasional.

Well I have adults in the back seat pretty regularly (although not to the point that comfy 3-across seating is that important anymore. That went out with downsizing in the late 1970's, anyway). Also, most minivans, crossovers, and SUV's in general tend to have back seats that are designed to fold down or be removed if need be. That compromises their comfort considerably, as they tend to be under-sized, thinly-padded, etc, have joints in the wrong place, mounted too low, etc.

Besides, back to my original point. If an Accord, Camry, Fusion, or Altima can have a comfy back seat, why can't a Malibu/Aura? And if I can get it in another midsized car, what's the point in getting some unwieldy minivan or SUV/crossover? I think comfy 4-passenger seating is pretty much a standard requirement in the midsized car arena. Otherwise, it's a compact.

dieselone · May 2009

Besides, back to my original point. If an Accord, Camry, Fusion, or Altima can have a comfy back seat, why can't a Malibu/Aura? I think comfy 4-passenger seating is pretty much a standard requirement in the midsized car arena. Otherwise, it's a compact.

Exactly, I sat in the back of my dad's 09 Accord EX-L and was very surprised at how comfortable the back seat was. I'm about 6'1 and I had plenty of room, better than the CTS I sat in at the autoshow where my head hit the roof while sitting in the back seat, much better than something like an Impala which is almost embarrassingly lacking in the rear seat. My wife's GP is even worse, I think I'd rather sit in the back of a Civic. That's part of the reason why my dad chose the Accord. He has coworkers ride with him a lot when they visit other locations around Chicago where they will be in his car for a few hours during the day.

The Accord is his first non D3 car ever and he loves it. No issues with cylinder deactivation or anything. The D3 may have very well lost a life long customer for good. We'll see. My dad's last two fords provided 200k trouble free miles and he still looked else where. Reliability isn't everything.

m4d_cow · May 2009

I might go for an Altima or Accord first...unless I could get a deal too good to pass up on an Aura/Malibu!

Unfortunately such sweet deals may be impossible to get since GM can't afford anymore losses at this point.

Which brings us to the bigger issue. IMO instead of wasting money on niche cars like Volt, GM should've focused on building a real hybrid version of Malibu, GM's bread and butter. The current "Mild" hybrid is so mild one fails to see the effect towards fuel econ.

Sure they can point out that 43000 people are already signing up for Volt. However this brings 3 questions in my mind:
1. How many of them are non-niche consumers?
2. How many will actually buy the car?
3. Assuming all 43k people buy the car, will there still be such demand in the following years? Or is it EV1 all over again?

m4d_cow · May 2009

Reliability isn't everything.

Exactly, this is what I've been trying to point out to some posters here, yet they don;t seem to understand at all. Product quality, fit-finish, comfort, service quality, they al matter just as much as reliability.

Besides, back to my original point. If an Accord, Camry, Fusion, or Altima can have a comfy back seat, why can't a Malibu/Aura?

This is so true. Domestics (and also Koreans for this matter) seem to neglect the fact that no matter how good a car is it's all useless if the driver and passenger can't sit comfortably in there. Koreans seem to be getting it at last, and Ford's latest Fusion addressed this problem properly (at least up front, didn;t try the back). Heck even Chrysler got it right with 300's seats, so why isn't GM doing the same?

Being a luxury brand doesn't ensure anything either. I find CTS' backseats disappointing (front's ok), and IMO, the best (and only) great seats in a GM car can be found in Cadillac DTS. Sure it's similar to Lucerne's, but it's got thicker padding and the shape's right. Now the big question: if GM can design good seats for DTS, why not for other GM cars? :confuse:

bpizzuti · May 2009

Now the big question: if GM can design good seats for DTS, why not for other GM cars?

Because they can charge a lot more for the DTS, and only have the money to spare to research cloth bags stuffed with rolled up paper for the Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn models? Part of the problem with too many brands, incidentally...money spent making the Malibu, G6, and Aura look different could have been spent on better seating for one of the three if they tossed the other two overboard.

ingvar · May 2009

Reliability isn't everything.
100% true. I don't care if my BMW will break. I'm aware about fuel pump & etc. I love how car drives:-)

nvbanker · May 2009

I spent a week in Orlando in February with a rental 2009 Civic EX sedan with 8K miles on the clock, and although nice, hard, and somewhat shiny, plastics abound within the interior.

While I agree with you - I'm wondering who is renting Hondas, since they don't sell directly to rental fleets to the best of my knowledge.......??? :confuse:

bpizzuti · May 2009

Enterprise manages to get some anyway, and I'd expect a few others would to. Since Honda won't sell them direct, they probably pick up a few models from dealers here and there after they've been sitting too long.

And yeah, I'm getting off-topic. But it's interesting in relation to how Enterprise would get its cars directly from its owner...uh, strategic partner, General Motors.

xrunner2 · May 2009

Above is title of article by GK in latest Autoweek. GK says that Opel recently showed the sixth gen Astra. GK then says Astra Delta 2 chasis is likely to provide underpinnings for a small Buick, first in China and then in the United States.

Might these be the first Buicks imported to US from China then maybe followed by Lacrosse? What will American brand-only buyer/drivers do? Is baby Cadillac from China in the cards? Kind of a Catera-Geely.

andre1969 · May 2009

While I agree with you - I'm wondering who is renting Hondas, since they don't sell directly to rental fleets to the best of my knowledge.......???

They're getting them somehow. About a month ago I was thinking about getting a rental car for the weekend, and a Honda Civic was one of the choices. Years ago, I had a 1991 Civic rental car, so the concept of Hondas in rental fleets isn't a new one.

dave8697 · May 2009

You wouldn't say that about the Malibu if you had sat in a late model Civic. I don't even quite say that about my Mazda...Civic's interior material quality is noticeably better: I like the Mazda because it's got a hatch and Civic doesn't. There's comparing honestly, and then they're lying to oneself to make oneself feel better about one's purchase. Why not say you get more legroom and a bigger engine and leave it at that? It's a valid argument, after all. The rest...just sounds a bit silly.

Is your Mazda a 3? I rode in one and the road noise was far worse than a G5 and getting out of the back seat was like a wisdom tooth extraction.

lilengineerboy · May 2009

You wouldn't say that about the Malibu if you had sat in a late model Civic. I don't even quite say that about my Mazda...Civic's interior material quality is noticeably better: I like the Mazda because it's got a hatch and Civic doesn't. There's comparing honestly, and then they're lying to oneself to make oneself feel better about one's purchase. Why not say you get more legroom and a bigger engine and leave it at that? It's a valid argument, after all. The rest...just sounds a bit silly

Is your Mazda a 3? I rode in one and the road noise was far worse than a G5 and getting out of the back seat was like a wisdom tooth extraction.

Its great that there are so many different options in the market today so that everyone can get a vehicle works for them.

gagrice · May 2009

great seats in a GM car can be found in Cadillac DTS.

Sadly Cadillac went cheapo on the 2007 and newer Escalade. I test drove one before I bought my current Sequoia. The seats were hard as rocks. I also test drove a barely used 2006 Escalade that I really liked and the seats were wonderful. With gobs of room in the second row. I only take adults in my vehicles so the back seat has to have good leg room. I also do not like having someone pushing their knees into my back as I have my seat all the way back. A roomy back seat is way up on my list of importance. It eliminates all the sub compacts and most of the midsize. That and I just do not like being that low to the ground in a sedan. Maybe a Porsche I can lower myself in and back out.

dieselone · May 2009

Is your Mazda a 3? I rode in one and the road noise was far worse than a G5 and getting out of the back seat was like a wisdom tooth extraction.

I'd gladly go through another wisdom teeth extraction (I had four impacted) if it meant never having to own or drive a G5.

bpizzuti · May 2009

Is your Mazda a 3? I rode in one and the road noise was far worse than a G5 and getting out of the back seat was like a wisdom tooth extraction.

Its great that there are so many different options in the market today so that everyone can get a vehicle works for them.

Very true. Mine is a 2004 Mazda3s. Road noise doesn't bug me, and new tires make a huge difference there. And I never sit in the back seat, nor would I subject anyone to that. Back seat is for cargo. :shades: If I wanted a back seat for actual people, I'd get a midsize or a Rogue.

andre1969 · May 2009

I remember when the Mazda3 first came out, I was impressed by the interior, which almost seemed too expensive for this class of car! I haven't paid much attention to them, so I don't know how they hold up today. Another thing I liked about it was the front seat room. I actually fit comfortably in the car, which isn't something I can say about every compact...and even some midsized cars! Now yeah, the backseat was pretty bad IMO, but I attributed that partly to the increased front seat travel. A Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic feels better in the back to me, but if their seats went back as far, I'm sure the back seat would be just as bad.

Actually, front seat room is one of the things I liked about the Cobalt. Getting behind the wheel almost feels like some big old 70's car, minus the shoulder room. Plenty of stretch-out room for my legs.

As for road noise, vibrations, etc...well I'm just used to bigger cars that tend to isolate you, so all little cars pretty much feel the same to me...jittery, bouncy, noisy, etc. Unless you get something expensive like a BMW 3-series, I guess.

bpizzuti · May 2009

One of the reasons I didn't like the Cobalt is that it didn't have enough front legroom..the Mazda3 had more. Despite that, Cobalt's back seat was still only good for cargo.

dieselone · May 2009

One thing about the compact market is the people who buy them tend to be young and without kids, and they probably don't care to much about rear seat room (I know I didn't back then). Hell, I remember riding in the back of a buddies Honda CRX in college to get a ride across campus or go out with friends to breakfast etc. We didn't care, as it was better than walking. When your in your early 20's you can bend into anything. I think I'd break something if I tried to contort myself into the cargo area of a CRX today. LOL

My wife had a Ford Probe when we were first married. Talk about no back seat room, but we didn't care until she got pregnant, then it was traded in on a used minivan

dave8697 · May 2009

it's worse than ..............accord, camry, fusion...

kinda like my road noise comment with the Mazda3, except I don't know if you mean dimensions are smaller or seat cushion is more comfortable.

Most seats are spec'ed out and purchased from companies like Lear and Johnson Controls. I make my seat ratings as I get out of the vehicle at the first rest stop on a long trip, not in 20 seconds in the dealer lot.

Road noise can be judged in one minute at 55 mph on each of a couple of used roads.

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