BMW 335d 2009+

trueteller · February 2008

Turner's "Stage 3 Upgrade" for the E90 325i does appear (if you trust a vendor dyno) to bring up 325i performance to 330i levels.

The upgrade costs $4000 and consists of a re-flash (a 18hp increase by itself), new intake manifold, and high flow cats. Most buyers in this segment won't be doing the installation themselves, so add another $700 for installation.

On the other hand, when new, a base 330i was about $5000 more than a base 325i - and included larger wheels and brakes, adaptive xenon headlights, power seats with memory settings, reverse-tilt mirror, and the upgraded audio system.

Sure, you could spend $5000 and add 50hp to an NA BMW, but why bother? The 330i was a better value.

Oh, I'm not arguing the cost-effectiveness of these cars anymore. I got really off-topic responding to the argument that it couldn't be done - firstly that they are not similar engine setups and parts are not interchangeable - and second that BMW engineers its vehicles 'perfectly' and there is no room for improvement.

However, if you happen to be someone who got a 325i or 330i back then, or used, and are looking to spice up your love afair with your car; you have options. There is some car-viagra available for the old lineup.

A stock 330 engine is 225 or 180whp. So for about $5000 (dinan + shark) or so you could maybe add 38 hp, if you trust the vendors figures. THe ECU adds maybe 20 hp, of which is probably bumping up the rev limiter which has an effect on engine longevity.

No, if you look at Turner's dyno graph, peak HP hits at 5800rpm or so, then starts to go down. Raising the rev limiter will not improve peak HP. Nice guess though.

It has been dyno-tested to provide a safe increase in power by altering fuel enrichment, cam timing and ignition timing specifically for use with premium gasoline.

Turner Again

shipo · February 2008

Did you actually read my request? I asked for a link to a tuner that could bump the output of an E90 325i to E90 330i levels via SOFTWARE. The link you provided requires a complete replacement of the exhaust system and an intake and software.

Yes, no?

I'm still thinking it would be cheaper just to buy a 330i instead.

Best Regards,
Shipo

trueteller · February 2008

Did you actually read my request? I asked for a link to a tuner that could bump the output of an E90 325i to E90 330i levels via SOFTWARE. The link you provided requires a complete replacement of the exhaust system and an intake and software.

Yes, no?

I'm still thinking it would be cheaper just to buy a 330i instead.

Yes, I read:

Please, post a link for ANY engine tuner that believes that they have software that can boost a normally aspirated 2006 325i to near 2006 330i levels. Personally I don't believe that it can be done without significant modifications to the actual engine.

They have software, and they claim it can boost it to 330i levels with minor engine modifications. It's been established by both Dinan and Turner that software + modification are complimentary to make the cars equal. Nobody but you said otherwise.

I don't call those engine modifications significant. They are still 99.9% the same car. I still maintain that getting ahold of 330i parts is the cheap way to go. You weren't buying that it could even be done, so I showed the expensive route as an example.

kdshapiro · February 2008

Oh, I'm not arguing the cost-effectiveness of these cars anymore. I got really off-topic responding to the argument that it couldn't be done - firstly that they are not similar engine setups and parts are not interchangeable - and second that BMW engineers its vehicles 'perfectly' and there is no room for improvement.

The bottom line is it really can't be done on the cheap without possibily voiding the warranty. Raising the rev limiter would cause a void of the warranty that BMW would be in its' rights to deny claim to fix for the engine and driveline....if they can prove the vehicle was redlined at 7K rpms.

So anything is possible, but this is not an inexpensive innocuous upgrade that could be slapped in.

You proved the point it really can't be done inexpensively, and hoping you don't void your warranty.

gagrice · February 2008

I'm wondering why anyone would do anything to the diesel BMW that would not help get even better MPG. Mileage and torque out on the road are the strong points of owning a diesel car. High revving is not what people own diesels for. I want to cruise up and down hill at 75 MPH at under 2000 RPM while getting 40+ MPG. I am hoping that is what the 330D and 335D will be offering. I have no need for a car that goes 0-60 in 6 seconds.

roadburner · February 2008

So anything is possible, but this is not an inexpensive innocuous upgrade that could be slapped in.

And the N54 has its own set of issues, such as wrecking the oil in less than 3000 miles, and running VERY hot on the track- even with the OEM cooler. So Vishnu comes along and cranks up the boost even higher to get more power out of the big lump. Of course, with more power comes even more heat and more stress. What a deal... But then, what do I know???

kdshapiro · February 2008

Hey, I'll take two. I was responding to our fellow poster who claimed someone could go into a junkyard and inexpensively crank up the BMW engine 40 hp. While I believe with money anything is possible, the key point is inexpensive. As shipo pointed out you could spend $3000 for 18 hp and then buy the Shark ECU for a dubious 18 hp. The only way to bump HP is to increase torque or up the revs. Shark takes the latter at the expense of your good 'ol warranty.

trueteller · February 2008

I'm wondering why anyone would do anything to the diesel BMW that would not help get even better MPG. Mileage and torque out on the road are the strong points of owning a diesel car. High revving is not what people own diesels for. I want to cruise up and down hill at 75 MPH at under 2000 RPM while getting 40+ MPG. I am hoping that is what the 330D and 335D will be offering. I have no need for a car that goes 0-60 in 6 seconds.

The 330d and 335d will offer similar performance to the gasoline car they compliment, but with better fuel mileage. For those that like to go faster than 6 seconds from 0-60, the 335d isn't a bad choice. It is still a performance car. If you're happy with just the mileage, more power to you. 6 seconds would feel like a week to me. Just biased.

And a lot of times with turbocharged engines, especially diesels, you can get both hp/tq increases as well as improving your fuel economy. It has to do with getting the most complete combustion from your fuel as possible. Ford's Econoboost works to this principle.
With the diesel that should be even more prevalent. Because the point of diesel power is not additional high-revving hp, its more low-revving torque. So your torque peaks higher at a lower RPM. You go faster without even adding as much fuel.

And the N54 has its own set of issues, such as wrecking the oil in less than 3000 miles, and running VERY hot on the track- even with the OEM cooler. So Vishnu comes along and cranks up the boost even higher to get more power out of the big lump. Of course, with more power comes even more heat and more stress. What a deal... But then, what do I know???

Yes, its not uncommon for turbocharged engines to require frequent oil changes. The turbo bearings need to be oil cooled as well, so that is adding extra demand on the oil cooler. I've heard if you want to track any car with that engine, buy an aftermarket oil cooler of larger capacity. Its not the biggest teething problem to fix.

One alternative is, don't track it. Thats hard on any car and not cheap to do. I'd use a 400hp 335i as a daily driver.

Hey, I'll take two. I was responding to our fellow poster who claimed someone could go into a junkyard and inexpensively crank up the BMW engine 40 hp. While I believe with money anything is possible, the key point is inexpensive. As shipo pointed out you could spend $3000 for 18 hp and then buy the Shark ECU for a dubious 18 hp. The only way to bump HP is to increase torque or up the revs. Shark takes the latter at the expense of your good 'ol warranty.

Yup, I'm all about value. Totally agree that if you can't get it cheap, don't bother. As for the warranties; the Vishnu program is not detectable by an OBD2 check, so unless you tell your dealer service you've tuned with Vishnu, they won't know.

habitat1 · February 2008

The 330d and 335d will offer similar performance to the gasoline car they compliment, but with better fuel mileage. For those that like to go faster than 6 seconds from 0-60, the 335d isn't a bad choice. It is still a performance car. If you're happy with just the mileage, more power to you. 6 seconds would feel like a week to me. Just biased. ....... Because the point of diesel power is not additional high-revving hp, its more low-revving torque.

Guess your definition of "similar performance" is based upon stoplight drag racing?

It is my understanding that the diesel 335d will weigh 200+ lbs more than the 335i. An already overweight car, by enthusiast standards. The 335d will lose 1,500+ rpm off the redline, already 1,000+ rpm low by enthusiast standards. The 335d will not come with a manual transmission, a complete non-starter by enthusiast standards.

Don't get me wrong, I am very much looking forward to having a 335d or 535d as an option when it comes time to replace my family sedan. And I appreciate that, at least as far as straight line acceleration, they will not "penalize" buyers over the gas model. But I'm not going to be giving up the third space in my garage, currently occupied by a 911S, for a 335d. It wouldn't even replace an older 240 hp M3 if I happened to have one of those.

Feel free to modify your 335d to increase the horsepower and torque to astronomical levels if you please. But I generally agree with gagrice. The 335d intrinsic advantage is that it is, potentially, a 250k mile, fuel efficient, reasonably quick and good handling workhorse. It's not a high strung thoroughbred racehorse. And trying to force it into that role could have detrimental impacts on the intended advantages.

No amount of modification to a 335d will change my "bias" that a true "performance" car ought to have a 7,200+ redline, be trim and fit on the scales and have a short throw 6-speed with a third pedal. And I think most driving enthusiasts share my biases. Perhaps that's why BMW's "M" cars get higher marks from them than AMG's horsepower and torque laden behemouths.

Performance is a lot more than winning drag races. If 6 seconds feels like a week to you, driving a "performance" car with a slushbox transmission feels like castration to me. The 335d is not an M3 or 911. And that's not a bad thing.

trueteller · February 2008

This is true with diesels in general. HP and torque drop off significantly past 4000-5000 rpm. All the power is down low, so getting to the next gear is beneficial for maintaining optimum acceleration. You could have the exact same horsepower and significantly more torque at 2K-3K RPM than the equivalent gasoline engine does at 4K-5K rpm. Raising the redline would do nothing for you on this type of engine.

Diesel tuning has been going on in numerous models for years. If done correctly, you can easily get more torque out of it without harming your engine. I don't know why there are so many gun-shy BMW fans out there. Do you think they are dainty cars? Do they break instantly when you rev them? You can bolt on over 100hp to a boosted Subaru or Audi and not even come near the limits at which the engine will be damaged.

Again, I was saying this is an option for those who choose to go that route. It will be able to perform similarly to the 335i, not identically, while wasting less fuel. I personally wouldn't get anything with an automatic transmission either. Though some people will get this car and want to giddyup once in a while. And they can have a little fun if they want, up to and including getting 500tq and 2-3 better mpg without voiding the warranty.

It doesn't have to be an M3 or a 911. It's a 335. And a decent bump in torque on the 335d could get you into the 0-60 in the low 5-second range just like the 335i, despite the extra baggage.

But I can't see any logic in that a true "performance" car ought to have a 7,200+ redline, be trim and fit on the scales and have a short throw 6-speed with a third pedal.
There will be performance diesels on the market. Possibly even diesel supercars. Few of them will have 6000+ redlines. It just doesn't benefit them that way. Unfortunately in the US, a lot of them will be automatics.
But Porsche is a good example of how that's a flawed 'perfomance enthusiast's creed'. The tiptronic is faster in some models.
RS6? GT-R? No, none of those can be performance cars. They have AWD and tip the scales at 3800+ lbs. Doesn't matter that they are sick-fast for their class and corner just as well as the *cough* light *cough* BMW or Porsche performance cars. Forget any of the Ferrari or Lamborghinis that come with paddle-shifters. They aren't performance cars if you have that bias.

I don't condone street racing. With great power comes great responsibility.

circlew · February 2008

But Porsche is a good example of how that's a flawed 'perfomance enthusiast's creed'. The tiptronic is faster in some models.
RS6? GT-R? No, none of those can be performance cars. They have AWD and tip the scales at 3800+ lbs. Doesn't matter that they are sick-fast for their class and corner just as well as the *cough* light *cough* BMW or Porsche performance cars. Forget any of the Ferrari or Lamborghinis that come with paddle-shifters. They aren't performance cars if you have that bias.

Ahh...AWD...the castration of castrations. Gotta luv it!

Regards,
OW

trueteller · February 2008

Ahh...AWD...the castration of castrations. Gotta luv it!

Let me get this straight --- you think the Bugatti Veyron is castrated compared to...... what exactly? That the GT-R and Murchialago are impotent compared to..... again, what? You're defending RWD as the only 'manly' drivetrain? Okay... that's different.

Granted, I like RWD cars with manual transmission too, but I'd gladly take the faster of two cars over the more conventional any day. Since I'm not compensating for anything

, I can afford to let technology and engineering take me around corners faster.

circlew · February 2008

Listen, I have a castrated 330xi from vinage'06. 255HP is OK for me same as the chassis and deneutered drive train.

So, as you see, I have issues!

Regards,
OW

habitat1 · February 2008

But Porsche is a good example of how that's a flawed 'perfomance enthusiast's creed'. The tiptronic is faster in some models.
RS6? GT-R? No, none of those can be performance cars. They have AWD and tip the scales at 3800+ lbs. Doesn't matter that they are sick-fast for their class and corner just as well as the *cough* light *cough* BMW or Porsche performance cars.

Again, I think we have different definitions of "performance".

That 911 Turbo Tiptronic that is faster 0-60 than the 6-speed manual? Well Porsche conveninetly forgot to add to the 3.4 second run the 10 seconds you have to spend setting the "launch control" program on the PCM screen and hold your foot on the brake while you rev the engine up to 5,000 rpm before your "launch". Crap, by the time you go through all of that, my old 65hp 1978 Datsun B210GX would be at 60 mph. That isn't "performance" it's a gimmick. And I can tell you from first hand discussions with a couple of dealers, the percentage of buyers of the 911 Turbo Tiptronic that later wished they got the 6-speed manual is probably 50%+. The Ferrari 430 F1 transmission is an excellent SMG, but it's still castration compared to the manual transmission, albeit with a very sharp knife and a little pain killer.

As far as "sick fast" and corners as good, let me hear that from first hand experience and not from some Road and Track review. Before I owned a 911S, I had a Honda S2000. According to the "numbers" it was almost identical in acceleration and maximum cornering g's compared to the 350Z. But it felt like razor sharp scalpel compared to a butter knife when I test drove the two back to back. There is no denying that the extra 600 lbs in the 350Z makes it feel like more of a GT than a visceral sports car.

Again, my point is that the 335d appears as though it will offer a very nice set of attributes, right out of the BMW OEM box. But, in spite of "numbers" that might look close on paper, I submit it will have a far less sporting demeanor than the gas model 335i. It will be heavier, handicapped with a slushbox and be shifting at rpm's that are below where the real fun starts for me. Personally, I would be happy to own a 535d and use it as intended, and keep my sports car tendencies in check.

By the way, if you couldn't already tell, I'd take a RWD 911 GT3 at 3,075 lbs, 8,400 rpm redline over a AWD 911 Turbo at 3,580 lbs and a 6,900 rpm redline in a heartbeat - in spite of a 0.5 second difference in 0-60 times.

trueteller · February 2008

Listen, I have a castrated 330xi from vinage'06. 255HP is OK for me same as the chassis and deneutered drive train.

So, as you see, I have issues!

Regards,
OW

That is good irony. I LOL'd.

trueteller · February 2008

Again, I think we have different definitions of "performance".

That 911 Turbo Tiptronic that is faster 0-60 than the 6-speed manual? Well Porsche conveninetly forgot to add to the 3.4 second run the 10 seconds you have to spend setting the "launch control" program on the PCM screen and hold your foot on the brake while you rev the engine up to 5,000 rpm before your "launch". Crap, by the time you go through all of that, my old 65hp 1978 Datsun B210GX would be at 60 mph. That isn't "performance" it's a gimmick. And I can tell you from first hand discussions with a couple of dealers, the percentage of buyers of the 911 Turbo Tiptronic that later wished they got the 6-speed manual is probably 50%+. The Ferrari 430 F1 transmission is an excellent SMG, but it's still castration compared to the manual transmission, albeit with a very sharp knife and a little pain killer.

As far as "sick fast" and corners as good, let me here that from first hand experience and not from reading some Road and Track review. Before I owned a 911S, I had a Honda S2000. According to the "numbers" it was almost identical in acceleration and maximum cornering g's compared to the 350Z. But it felt like razor sharp scalpel compared to a butter knife when I test drove the two back to back. There is no denying that the extra 600 lbs in the 350Z makes it feel like more of a GT than a visceral sports car.

Again, my point is that the 335d appears as though it will offer a very nice set of attributes, right out of the BMW OEM box. But, in spite of "numbers" that might look close on paper, I submit it will have a far less sporting demeanor than the gas model 335i. It will be heavier handicapped with a slushbox and be shifting at rpm's that are below where the real fun starts for me. Personally, I would be happy to own a 535d and use it as intended.

By the way, if you couldn't already tell, I'd take a RWD 911 GT3 at 3,075 lbs, 8,400 rpm redline over a AWD 911 Turbo at 3,580 lbs and a 6,900 rpm redline in a heartbeat - in spite of a 0.5 second difference in 0-60 times.

I'll say we do. I still prefer the manual too. But performance can only be measured in 'ideal' numbers. Depending on the driver and conditions, results can be different. What make a performance car is what it is capable of. Tiptronics aren't the only performance cars with a lot of gadgetry to get around. How about the M5? How many settings are there? Thousands? I don't call the M5 a gimmick. Difficult to program, yes, but still a performance car. So no, I'm not adding 10 seconds to the faster car. Under ideal situations, its capable of going faster.

You can do whatever you want with your diesel Bimmer. I can't exactly measure how performance is 'percieved' by individuals. But I contest that with a little work, the 335d could keep pace with the 335i despite the extra weight. And despite the fact that an Audi R8 diesel prototype doesn't rev as high as you like, it would soundly beat a lot of gas-powered cometition. Its because with a tiny blip of the throttle, you are getting 700+ tq at 2000 rpms. Its a performer no matter which way you swing it. For some people, it would be even more fun to get all that torque immediately, then shift so the torque of the next gear hits sooner. Diesel driving does not feel like traditional cars. It takes some getting used to, but it can just as performance-like.

R8 V12 diesel

I've heard dealers say just about anything. Usually I am more knowledgeable about the cars they are selling than they are. Thats just the way the cookie crumbles. I'm not sure how you stand to call any F430 castrated. Is the Enzo castrated as well? Please enlighten us.

Aside from being Nissan's, the 350Z has nothing in common with the GT-R whatsoever. It is RWD for starters. I was referring to this car:

GT-R

It is reportedly faster than all 911 turbo models, though again it requires a launch mode. And it is sick fast. A $70K supercar that keeps up with all the rest. I'll take this over the GT3, the Turbo, and the GT2.

fedlawman · February 2008

"I'll take this over the GT3, the Turbo, and the GT2."

Who cares if a GT-R is faster than GT3? I'll take fun, visceral, and rewarding to drive over effortless, computer-assisted "sick fast" every time.

trueteller · February 2008

Who cares if a GT-R is faster than GT3? I'll take fun, visceral, and rewarding to drive over effortless, computer-assisted "sick fast" every time.

Hey, its your money. Do what you want with it. Sick fast suits me just as well as a stock 535d suits you. To each their own.

You know what I think the ultimate castration is? Marriage. The old ball and chain. Someone else telling you what to like and how to think. No, I'm not talking about to a woman, I'm talking about to a car. Marriage to a brand, a nation of origin, or a drivetrain type. I used to be married to the philosophy that only RWD 6-speed muscle was 'masculine'. Its pretty stiffling if you ask me, especially when the brand you are loyal to stops delivering on performance for value. Some choose to hang in there till the bitter end... I needed some space.

No longer! I divorced those notions and now I roam freely, making eyes at the fastest... cars out there. If she's got some slick new moves that the other ones don't have, great! I don't even care if she's cheap. And if my GT-R started to look old and tired compared to some other types, I'd dump her in a heartbeat.

I'm a performance addict. It's my cross to bear.

lehrer1 · February 2008

I drove a Mercedes, a Renault and a VW Passat with diesel engines. Diesels the same size as gas engines have more torque and better fuel economy but they are more expensive, heavier, running with more noise and vibrations, have narrower RPM range and less elastic. Gas engines are more comfortable.
Lehrer

trueteller · February 2008

I drove a Mercedes, a Renault and a VW Passat with diesel engines. Diesels the same size as gas engines have more torque and better fuel economy but they are more expensive, heavier, running with more noise and vibrations, have narrower RPM range and less elastic. Gas engines are more comfortable.

Historically, there is some truth to that, except I don't know what you mean by less elastic. But that does not have to be true. The technology is advancing rapidly.

The Subaru Boxer Diesel for example is getting rave reviews by every journalist driving it in the UK right now. Reasons? Its the same size and weight as the gas engine, with low vibration and noise, and twice the fuel mileage. Since the vibration is so low in a boxer engine, they allow it to rev higher than most diesels. And since it has significantly more torque than its gas counterpart, its actually faster in the Legacy test.

The 335d's reviews also reflect the fact that it is the most fun diesel to drive yet, good enough to call itself a 335. Maybe you just haven't happened accross a good diesel yet. And maybe you'll never like them, thats up to you. But not everything you say is intrinsic to all diesels. Except expensive. They are that.

fedlawman · February 2008

"Sick fast suits me just as well as a stock 535d suits you. To each their own."

Umm, when did I say anything about wanting a diesel? I would no sooner own a diesel than I would an AWD, auto-shifting, yaw-controlled rolling computer.

"I used to be married to the philosophy that only RWD 6-speed muscle was 'masculine'. Its pretty stiffling if you ask me"

No more or less stifling than "The newest and the fastest is the bestest."

roadburner · February 2008

I think that you need to dust off your Pokemon analogy...

trueteller · February 2008

Umm, when did I say anything about wanting a diesel? I would no sooner own a diesel than I would an AWD, auto-shifting, yaw-controlled rolling computer.

I agree that all the manufacturers of clean diesels need to realize that the people who are going to be buying them are not the hybrid crowd. They are the ones that opted not to get hybrids because they are slow, automatic, trashy little econoboxes. Or large, useless fuel-guzzling hybrids that don't save you any money or fuel. (Lexus LS and GS Hybrids or Tahoe and Yukon Hybrid).

People who choose diesel over hybrid are wanting a driver's car that is also good for the environment. That means whatever demographic they are looking at that that suggests we don't want manuals is way off. I don't care if its Acura, Audi, BMW, Mercesdes, or Subaru that puts a manual in a turbodiesel, thats the one I'm most interested in.

As for the auto-shifters, I only make exceptions for those when they reach hypercar level. Once you are going 0-60 in 3 seconds or so and cornering at 100mph, that level of white-knuckle driving demands ultra-fast shifts. When you cross the threshold of SMG's outpacing 6-speeds, thats where I become interested.

But the thing I love best about a computer on wheels is how easy it is to reprogram. If the new GT-R is anything like the old one, there will be extreme bolt-on power potential. The more data the onboard computer processes, the more you can get out of it, and Nissan always led the way in automotive onboard supercomputer technology for the GT-R. That means you have almost unlimited potential for telling it what to do.

Within the first year, expect tuners to get a 0-60 in the high 2-second range and 1/4-mile in the sub-10's. With even more astonishing gains as the software improves. Preparing to see records set!

I love computers. :shades:

fedlawman · February 2008

"As for the auto-shifters, I only make exceptions for those when they reach hypercar level. Once you are going 0-60 in 3 seconds or so and cornering at 100mph, that level of white-knuckle driving demands ultra-fast shifts. When you cross the threshold of SMG's outpacing 6-speeds, thats where I become interested."

And where exactly do you plan on doing all this "white knuckle driving?" I could see this car being useful if my left leg and right arm are wounded while combating giant evil alien robots and I need to make a quick getaway to my secret lair to don my power armor. :P

But seriously, even on a track (and who would be dumb enough to take a $70,000+ car to the track?), this car is a waste. What's the fun in having a car that does all the work for you and takes driving skill out of the equation? Might as well go to Disneyland and ride Space Mountain for all the fun this car will provide.

I just finished looking in my crystal ball and here's what I saw. Fourteen 20 somethings are going to wrap their (daddy's) GT-R around a tree, off a cliff, into oncoming traffic, etc. in the first month after it's released. Most of these cars will be sold to people who have little driving skill and even less brains.

trueteller · February 2008

Why do I get the feeling that if a car that could pull off this type of speed was a 6-speed manual you'd be gushing over it?

There will be plenty of these at the tracks, I can assure you. There's no point to a GT3 outside of racing either. People who opt for this one over the GT3 can afford to wreck it twice with all the money they saved. And they are less likely to wreck it than one of those stripped-down cars like the GT3 because the AYC is protecting you from imminent death. A person with the same skill in both cars can just drive the GT-R faster around the same course. If by a waste you mean... I'm not sure what you mean because all the technology does is help you go faster. Some people like better lap times.

I don't see any more kids being killed in their daddy's GT-R than in their mommy's Boxter or Cayman or Carrera. What car exactly do you think it takes brains and skill to buy exactly? An M3? I'm sure no jackass has ever driven an M-series off a cliff with a car full of kids. Oh wait, yes they have...

M5 off a cliff

And what's wrong with roller-coasters? If you hate computers so much why don't you just smash the one you're sitting in front of.

Anyway, this is the wrong forum for this discussion. Any more sensible topics related to diesels to discuss?

fedlawman · February 2008

Well, I guess I just care less about lap times and more about control / response.

An SMG E46 M3 will blow the doors off my 5-speed E30 M3 on the street or track, but you couldn't pay me enough to trade.

I truly hate to see / hear about the senseless, tragic loss of a Porsche. At least when some idiot wrecks his GT-R, it's just a Japanese car. :P

But you're right, we have strayed off topic here.

kdshapiro · February 2008

Fourteen 20 somethings are going to wrap their (daddy's) GT-R around a tree, off a cliff, into oncoming traffic, etc. in the first month after it's released. Most of these cars will be sold to people who have little driving skill and even less brains.

That is true, but Nissan did it to upstage Chevy, which produces the most useless car in the world (IMO). But I agree, the number of these that will be trashed either on the street or on the track, won't be a laughing matter.

kdshapiro · February 2008

There's no point to a GT3 outside of racing either.

Correct, except daddy isn't giving his GT3 to the kids due to the price point. People who buy GT3 don't think 2 GTRs, they think 2 GT3s.

roadburner · February 2008

Well, I guess I just care less about lap times and more about control / response.

It's sad, but fewer and fewer people care about their driving ability anymore, and they are more than happy to relinquish control to a boatload of electronic acronyms that will conceal the operator's(driver is much too generous a term) lack of skill.
But who cares, right?
Just as long as the sled is flashy and fast.
Oh, and it also needs to be featured on a couple of PS3 and/or XBox 360 titles as well...

circlew · February 2008

Hard to eliminate computer control....but the car I have does transmit good steering feel despite the added baggage...simply the best i've driven so far.

Now if I can get a diesel to get 40+ MPG of higher cost diesel fuel (8% premium over premium gas) in this chassis, It'll be good enough for me, the castrated enthusiast.

I don't need 500 HP for commuter driving...that's for the ego-centric set....although that would be quite an experience for a track car...strip out the garbage and go!

Regards,
OW

fedlawman · February 2008

And a drift movie or two...

Oh wait, can you drift an AWD car?

circlew · February 2008

Oh wait, can you drift an AWD car?

Yup..takes practice! But you know that already!

Regards,
OW

shipo · February 2008

"Oh wait, can you drift an AWD car?"

Apparently you didn't see the S8 being drifted all over France in the movie Ronin.

Best Regards,
Shipo

circlew · February 2008

Here is the Ronin S8 clip. AWD ain't that boring! (in the movies).

link title

Regards,
OW

trueteller · February 2008

Yes, clearly only blue eyed people can make good cars. Every German vehicle is engineering marvel. Not.

You know people who fly airliners are significantly more talented than ones who fly Cessnas.

And ones who fly F-15s are way more capable than those flying P-51s.

That's because you warm up and train on the simple, rough-riding ones. Then they graduate up to the big leagues.

Don't say its not the same, because it is. An F-22 pilot doesn't need computers because he's incompetent. Its because without computers the plane wouldn't fly. And without computers, hypercars would not be able to accelerate, stop, or corner nearly as well.

And after having practiced on your favorite techo-handicapped cars, then having raced 1000 laps in an F1 car, a driver would then be able to drive a dinosaur faster than you. Because they have been to the limit and back.

I detect egos outstrip their skill by a wide margin. If you like a certain style of car that's fine. I like stripped down Lotus' as well as high-tech Mercs. But the high tech ones can just plain do more.

Don't pretend like liking a more basic car makes you more skillful. Its ok to like it. Don't be so bitter that what you like is becoming obsolete.

Just as many Boxers and Caymans and Carerras will be wrecked by kids acting dumb. Daddy won't let junior drive the GTR any moire than the GT3. Price irregardless. Its the favorire child. Stupid people buy your cars too. I'll bet the ratio is the same.

roadburner · February 2008

Don't pretend like liking a more basic car makes you more skillful. Its ok to like it. Don't be so bitter that what you like is becoming obsolete.

Care to put those assertions to the test?

How about attending a BMW CCA HPDE?
We'll soon find out whose ego outstrips their skill.
As a matter of fact, I'll be instructing at Watkins Glen in September- during O'fest 2008. You are most welcome to be one of my students.
By the way, the word is poseur; see my CarSpace page.

trueteller · February 2008

Don't pretend like liking a more basic car makes you more skillful. Its ok to like it. Don't be so bitter that what you like is becoming obsolete.

Care to put those assertions to the test?

How about attending a BMW CCA HPDE?
We'll soon find out whose ego outstrips their skill.
As a matter of fact, I'll be instructing at Watkins Glen in September- during O'fest 2008. You are most welcome to be one of my students.
By the way, the word is poseur; see my CarSpace page.

I don't have an ego, genius. Nowhere in there was I calling anyone out and saying they were untallented. But many are claiming that anyone driving cars with electronic traction aids are incompetent drivers. If you own a Mazdaspeed 3, I'd say that includes you.

Do you have the skill to take a Honda Accord or another uncomplicated FWD with 260hp around a track as fast as a Mazdaspeed 3? I doubt it. You'd understeer into a wall just as fast as anyone else in a car that handles like a pig. Fun little computers would save your life in the Mazda. If you think otherwise, yeah, I'll put that to the test. You can pick any other FWD car that has no electronic locking front diff, and I'll take the Mazda.

But considering you and I seem to like the same types of cars, who you should be challenging is someone who claims they are more talented because they hate electronic traction control and you don't. Sound rediculous? It is.

I'm betting if you had a repertoir of 50 cars of varying technology, you would be more talented than someone with a very limited scope. A familiar example would be the Stig. Who else has a familiar face... err helmet... that drives so many cars to the limit. Is he a lousy driver because he posts faster times in cars with e-diffs than ones without? No, the car is better. He'd still outgun you in your own car.

I don't have a repertoir of 50 cars, so I'm not an ideal example. I've only driven manual transmissions without AYC. And I feel like I haven't gotten the full range of performance car expericne yet. But I'd like to. I'm not ruling out a GT-R because it can go faster than a GT3 without wrecking. I also stand by the assertion that no more cars will be wrecked with a GT-R than if it didn't exist. Because those drivers would have bought Porsche Carrera 4s for that price range and died anyway. It may not be as fast, but its fast enough to kill an idiot driver.

circlew · February 2008

Forget the GT-R. Check this out!

GM hasnt revealed any official details about the next Corvette apart from the fact that it will retain the front-engine layout. According to parts suppliers, a mid-engine layout was ruled out because of the costs involved in developing such a car. Developers are instead looking at AWD traction to improve the Corvettes track performance. We already know what its capable of with just RWD. Now imagine what an AWD Corvette with more than 600hp could do to the competition.

The new AWD Corvette would be a nice car to ask roadburner to turn me from a poseur to a driving genius!

But I would still consider a 40+ MPG 335d for my commuter. I'm sure that BMW will add AWD to the 335d ITNF since it is now available on the Xdrive35d.

The E350 BlueTec gets 29 MPG all-around so the335d is comparable. Back to the drawing boards!

Regards,
OW

kdshapiro · February 2008

Because those drivers would have bought Porsche Carrera 4s for that price range and died anyway.It may not be as fast, but its fast enough to kill an idiot

The difference is the price and idiots/$.

trueteller · February 2008

GM hasnt revealed any official details about the next Corvette apart from the fact that it will retain the front-engine layout. According to parts suppliers, a mid-engine layout was ruled out because of the costs involved in developing such a car. Developers are instead looking at AWD traction to improve the Corvettes track performance. We already know what its capable of with just RWD. Now imagine what an AWD Corvette with more than 600hp could do to the competition.

Link please! I'll definitely be interested to see what becomes of this competition, but I love it! We are all winners when auto-companies compete for bang/buck championship title.

The difference is the price and idiots/$.

I hope you are not suggesting that there is a linear relationship between money and common sense. Because that would be quite possibly the worst claim in a forum full of bad claims. If anything, I'd say the relationship is inverse.

Here's how I know you're wrong:
I would like to someday own a racing team. Though I'm far from the greatest driver in the world, I'm practically an automotive encyclopedia, and would make a good crew cheif. I'd select someone with extensive driving experience, and pick 2 GT-Rs for my lineup, rather than 1 GT3. Reasoning? I don't care if my driver likes the feel of a 6-speed without traction control. And I don't care that the image of owning a more expensive car makes some people feel more successful. I'm going to be screaming into his headset to catch the gorram leader! And I know enough not to chose 2 GT-3s that were too expensive to start with, impossible to fix in the pits, and snap oversteer and wreck more often.

I get paid to be an efficiency expert and financial auditor. I'm practically allergic to waste. I'd think intelligence is doing more with less.

But I would still consider a 40+ MPG 335d for my commuter. I'm sure that BMW will add AWD to the 335d ITNF since it is now available on the Xdrive35d.

Back on topic at last. The 335xd would be a fine choice, especially since the extra torque to the rear wheels might cause extra wheel spin in wet weather.

IMHO, 'poser' is better since both are correct spellings.

circlew · February 2008

AWD 'Vette link.

link title

Regards,
OW

roadburner · February 2008

I don't have an ego, genius

That's great! You'll probably be a much better student when you finally do decide to participate in an HPDE.

Nowhere in there was I calling anyone out and saying they were untallented(sic).

So THAT is why you compose a post entitled "I see posers(sic)" which includes comments such as:

"I detect egos outstrip their skill by a wide margin." and
"Don't pretend like liking a more basic car makes you more skillful."

But many are claiming that anyone driving cars with electronic traction aids are incompetent drivers.

No, we are claiming that incompetent drivers use the stability and traction control technology as a crutch. These drivers rely on the safety nannies to save their bacon and thus they never learn basic car control skills.

Fun little computers would save your life in the Mazda. If you think otherwise, yeah, I'll put that to the test

Well, bring it on; when I want to make time in the MS3, I disable the DTC...

You can pick any other FWD car that has no electronic locking front diff, and I'll take the Mazda.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but if you take the MS3 you won't have a magic electronic diff either. You see, Mazdaspeed fits a mechanical LSD.

But considering you and I seem to like the same types of cars, who you should be challenging is someone who claims they are more talented because they hate electronic traction control and you don't.

Nope, you are the one who started the poseur thread, so it's time for you to step up- but I'm not holding by breath. When you are ready to test your assertions in the real world -as opposed to relying on magazine articles- we'll discuss this further.

pat · February 2008

become little more than a food fight, let's take a break before the walls get any gloppier.

pat · April 2008

I'm reopening this thread. Let's stick to the car this time and leave the personal and off-topic comments for some other world.

jlbl · April 2008

Last month I bought a 335d coupe. Having put 2,000 miles in her odometer by now, I can say the more I drive her, the more I like it.

With this car I am doing 32.7 milesgallon at best (cruising at 80 mileshour) and 19.7 in town & commuting. Before this car I owned a 530d sedan, which was more economic (36.6 milesgallon, my cruising average after four years).

Though I was very satisfied with that 5-Series diesel, the driving comparison between both cars forces me to forgive the 335d higher fuel consume.

I asked Pat to re-open the thread just in case people is interested in discussing first-hand information on this car, her driving, etc.

Regards,
Jose

gagrice · April 2008

Do you know anyone with an X5 diesel? What kind of mileage are they getting. Not that I am holding my breath for anything decent to offered in the USA. Thanks for the info.

shipo · April 2008

Congratulations on the new ride.

Question: Over here there is a rumor that when the 335d hits our shores, it will be in the form of an automatic only. What transmission does your car have?

Best Regards,
Shipo

coupedncal · April 2008

Do we know if the engine being offered in 2009 335d and X5d here in the US is going to be same as what is being currently offered in Europe? How does it compare with the two diesel engines offered in X5 in Europe until last year. I believe one was regular diesel and one was with a turbo diesel.

jlbl · April 2008

Reply to Gagrice and Coupedncal:

Do you know anyone with an X5 diesel? What kind of mileage are they getting.

No, I don't know X5 real mileage. Those mileages I post below are the officials; based on my experience with my former and current diesels, they might well be underestimated at least to a 15%.

How does it compare with the two diesel engines offered in X5 in Europe until last year. I believe one was regular diesel and one was with a turbo diesel

Currently there are two X5 diesel versions offered in Europe. One is the 3.0d, the other the 3.0sd. Both have L6 engines, each with a capacity of 2,993 cc; both have automatic Steptronic transmissions and Brake Energy Regeneration. Sport suspension is optional for each.

But the 3.0d engine comes with one turbo, delivers 210 hp and 126 milesh at 4,000 rm, and gets 0-60 milesh in 8.1 sec; CO2 emissions are of 214 grkm (EU4). Mileage (urban/road/combined, EU4): 23.1 /34.1 / 29.0 milesgallon.

In turn the 3.0sd has twin turbos, 286 hp / 141 milesh at 4,400 rm, 0-60 milesh in 7.0 sec. and 216 grkm CO2 emissions (it also meets EU4 regs.).
Mileage (urban/road/combined, EU4): 22.8 / 33.6 / 28.7 milesgallon.

I hope this helps in rising your expectations. Of course, I don't know the final specs of the X5s eventually going to the USA.

Regards,
Jose

jlbl · April 2008

Congratulations on the new ride.

Many thanks.

Over here there is a rumor that when the 335d hits our shores, it will be in the form of an automatic only. What transmission does your car have?

Automatic Steptronic. It is just 335d coupe standard equipment; there is even no option in getting the manual with three pedals. M Sport suspension is also standard with the 335d coupe.

I had little experience with automatic trannies, and most of it driving rented cars when visiting the USA. On the other hand, all my life I have liked to change gears by my own, in order to control the engine revs up and down so as to brake with the engine or cornering and accelerating matching the best revs. Thus, I had wished 6 gears manual with three pedals for my 335d.

However, some posters in other Edmunds thread told me I should not be worried with the BMW Steptronic (thanks are dued to them): it is soft and unnoticed in the automatic modes, and quick and efficient in the manual setting. (It also apparently adapts itself to your way of driving.)

After using the Steptronic for a while (specially in the M mode) I am happy I do not gave up the 335d coupe deal because of the transmission item. In short, in the M mode the Steptronic allows me the same sort of changing tips I am used to do with the classic manual tranny (except skip gears in between). When I set myself in an economic-driving humour, M mode is also more fuel greedy than the automatic modes. My only concern is that the size and placement of the two remaining pedals are not so friendly to the heel and toe maneuver as they were in the 530d, for instance.

Regards,
Jose

PS: 335d coupe has an oil dipstick

BMW 335d 2009+

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