What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ateixeira · March 2013

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/28/volkswagen-golf-wagon-caught-completely-uncov- ered/

gagrice · March 2013

A comparison of the Touareg TDI, JGC diesel, ML350 Bluetech and X5D would be great. Those 4 are probably the best of the best in On/Off Road vehicles sold in the USA this year. I would like to see Jeep and MB get more involved in World class racing like the Dakar Rally.

gagrice · March 2013

I haven't a clue if one can go to the dealer, plunk order deposits down, put one's name on one: off either inventory or assembly line.

Since some would say the (2013) VW Touareg TDI would be ONE of the Jeep's competitors, Cars.com shows 621 units inventory: prices listed 45.5k to 61.2k.

I am on the list to test drive the JGC diesel when it first shows up here. I don't expect it till the end of this month or into April. Pricing has been announced sort of. Nothing on the Jeep website yet.

As for Touareg TDI, only 2 LUX within 100 miles of me. I am not driving 100 miles to Palm Springs to test drive one. Our local dealer moved and is under new ownership. I stopped in and they did not have any TDIs. Of course they gave me the line that they are all sold before they get here. Which may or may not be true. My one complaint is the rear seat is not as comfy as the Mercedes or have as much leg room. I would put the Touareg up against the other 3 for off road ability. On the basis of their records and off road racing wins. I did notice that BMW finally won the Dakar rally this year. In a Mini with their 6 cylinder diesel engine. Not sure how they got it into a Mini.

http://www.minimotorsport.com/en/dakar/car

stever · March 2013

"The diesel will be available in the 2016 Wrangler, which will debut in 2015.

"The engine will be introduced toward the end of the model's lifecycle to boost sales before they bring in the redesigned model," according to an industry source who asked not to be identified."

2016 Jeep Wrangler To Get Diesel Engine

fintail · March 2013

Had better luck in today's evening commute - was able to move faster, so I could make more lights (going the limit here means you miss a lot of them). 27.2mpg. Pretty nice. Old car would have maybe hit 15 in that driving.

ruking1 · March 2013

I am swagging most JEEP fans who off road are going, what took em sooooooo long? (max torque @ low RPM)

crkyolfrt · March 2013

Nonetheless, they gotta wait on their hands.

Is it going to be a MB or VM engine?

Either way, do they both have an aluminum block or cast iron?

Normal WB Jeeps, could be a little front heavy if they are cast iron.

I asked my friend when I drove his ML a couple months ago..he didn't know..he's not overly mechanically inclined. We were about to pop the hood, and something came up and I never did get to have a peek..

gagrice · March 2013

My understanding is the current Jeep Wrangler with diesel is made in the USA and sold elsewhere. It has the VM Motori 2.8L 4 cylinder what was used in the Liberty. Hopefully they come up with better emissions than was kludged onto the Liberty diesel.

Either way, do they both have an aluminum block or cast iron?

Here is the specs on the JGC engine we are all waiting to try. At least I am.

Inside The Banks 630T V-6 Diesel

DISPLACEMENT: 3.0L (182 ci)
CONFIGURATION: 60-degree, even-fire V-6
ENGINE WEIGHT: 498 pounds
BORE AND STROKE: 83 mm x 92 mm (3.26 in. x 3.62 in.)
COMPRESSION RATIO: 16.5:1
ENGINE BLOCK: Compacted-graphite iron (CGI) casting that weighs 159 pounds, featuring four 14mm head bolts per cylinder
BEDPLATE: A one-piece, 35-pound assembly retains the crankshaft and ties the bottom of the block together with six 12mm bolts per main bearing
CRANKSHAFT: Forged 4140 steel with 74mm (2.91 in.) main bearing journals and 67.5mm (2.66 in.) connecting rod journals, externally balanced
CYLINDER HEAD: Aluminum castings with four valves per cylinder
VALVETRAIN: Dual overhead camshafts (DOHC) with roller finger followers and hydraulic lash adjustment
VALVE SIZE: 28.5mm (1.12 in.) intake, 25.4mm (1.00 in.) exhaust
BASE POWER RATING: 221 to 268 hp at 4,000 rpm
BASE TORQUE OUTPUT: 369 to 421 lb-ft at 2,000 rpm
MAXIMUM ENGINE SPEED: 4,800 rpm
FUEL SYSTEM: Bosch common-rail injection with a CP4.2 pump and CRIN 3.4 solenoid injectors capable of running up to 29,000 psi (2,000 bar) and seven injection events
TURBOCHARGER: Electronically controlled variable geometry with water-cooled ball-bearing cartridge in high-power applications

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/1208dp_banks_vm_motori_630t_v6_diesel_engine/- -

stever · March 2013

I am swagging most JEEP fans who off road are going

Back when I had my '74 CJ-5, it was always fun to lock the hubs and put it in first gear and see if it would stall.

Kind of like 4WD/AWD, I wonder if it really boils down to the tires at some point.

Oh, we've been talking about the proposed diesel fuel price in France over in the Liberty CRD discussion and I just noticed this cash for clunkers proposal tonight:

France mulls diesel car scrappage bonus (Reuters).

crkyolfrt · March 2013

Thanks for those specs - so it is the VM..not sure what compacted-graphite iron is..sounds like it is meant to be lighter than cast iron. 159 lb for a block is definitely heavier than a full-on aluminum block. I know the 2.8 was cast iron.

Come to think of it, ruking, does the Touareg use a cast iron block?

gagrice · March 2013

France is going through the same ignorance we have over the last few years. If they have good quality ULSD they should not be overly polluted by even old diesel engines. Hollande will go down as the worst of the worst, kind of like our current non leader.

gagrice · March 2013

Allpar gives a little more info on the upcoming GC diesel.

VM Motori started supplying Chrysler in 1992, with the Chrysler Voyagers diesel option. Today, VM Motori powers several European Chrysler and Jeep cars, as well as (as of Februrary 2011) the Chevrolet Captiva, London Taxi, Megastar van, and Maxus van. Today, two VM engines are used by Chrysler: the 2.8 (Wrangler, Voyager, and Cherokee) and 3.0 (Grand Cherokee, 300C/Thema.) The Maserati Kubang is reportedly to use a highly modified version of the 3.0 liter V6 as well.

The A 630 direct-injection V6 diesel has Fiats Multijet II technology, and delivers more horsepower and torque with greater efficiency, lower emissions, and, one analyst wrote, higher grade internal materials. Built by VM Motori and developed with Fiat Powertrain, it hits a peak 177 kW (241 hp DIN) at 4,000 rpm and 550 Nm (406 lb-ft) at 1,800-2,800 rpm. This engine was reportedly developed for General Motors, as was a 2.9 liter version that was dropped while still unfinished (meant for EuroCadillacs). Neither was used by GM.

Fuel economy for the new 3.0-liter turbo diesel engine (as used in the Grand Cherokee) is 8.3 L/100km on the combined cycle, an improvement of 17% over the prior diesel engine. CO2 emissions (combined cycle) are also reduced by 17 percent, now at 218 g/km; this is partly a result of new-generation, 2000 bar injectors with MultiJet II technology (Chrysler Europe specified 1800 bar pressure, but this is likely on the lower power version).

The diesel engine uses a compacted graphite iron, 60-degree block with aluminum cylinder heads and a two-piece structural aluminum oil pan. Bore is 83 mm (3.27 in) and stroke is 92 mm (3.62 in) for a total displacement of 2987 cm3 (182 in3). Bore spacing is 96 mm (3.78 in).

The engine is compact and lightweight, with overall dimensions of 695 mm (27.36 in) in length, 729 mm (28.7 in) in width and 697.5 mm (27.46 in) in height. Weight of the fully dressed new engine is 230 kg (507 lbs); on its own, it is 220 kg (485 lb). The engine was designed for either transverse or longitudinal mounting.

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/V6/VM-RA-diesel.html

ruking1 · March 2013

..."Come to think of it, ruking, does the Touareg use a cast iron block?"...

Yes, cast iron is my understanding. I have read in passing 490 #'s.

Here is how it is technically described. ..."High-strength, compacted graphite iron cylinder block""...

link title

So the utility of " high strength compacted graphite cast iron" is a 5 to 10% weight savings.

ruking1 · March 2013

The "high torque, low rpm" verbiage translates to: 406 # ft of torque, starting @ 1,750 rpm "ALL the way UP" to 2,750 rpm". The VW T TDI V6 3.0 L has hardly been billed, designed, built and/or used for "off roading." Additionly for some reason, I had always swaged max torque's upper rpm to be app 3,000 rpm (close enough). For whatever reason 2,750 rpm is not in the oem owner's manual !?

However I would swag the Wrangler's 3.0 TDI V6 will have similar translations.

ruking1 · March 2013

the MB diesel/Bluetec segments?

Zetscher's Last Chance Saloon?

stever · March 2013

They should have stuck with Chrysler. :shades:

crkyolfrt · March 2013

Wow, very interesting pdf read. I haven't had time to go thru it all..but one thing strikes me odd (in terms of engine potential longevity) right off the bat, and it is the extended distance and pull angles of the (probable water pump etc) chain tension guides. They are long and pull at ridiculously extreme convex angles, depending TOTALLY on the content longevity potential of whatever on earth those guides could possibly be made of, and the lubricity of the oils in which to keep them lubed. I had to go back to look again cuz I can't believe what I'm looking at. !

ruking1 · March 2013

In some ways it looks to be made to SELF DESTRUCT !! ??

Looking and thinking back to 11 years or so ago, the self destruct feature of the "interference design"(1.9 L/2.0 L) were MAJOR red flags. Another were the reports of both the shorter timing belt life (60,000 miles and tensioner: since extended/improved to 100,000 miles ( improved belts have extreme kevlar materials) and a bearing beef up on the tensioner) These and other issues almost killed the deal for me.

crkyolfrt · March 2013

Ya..so it's not just my interpretation of that photo? Almost makes me wonder if those guides actually hold extremely high quality (read, hardened to within inches of their life) small needle bearings that ride the backside of the chain..but surely not? It's mysterious to me..

ruking1 · March 2013

Oh gosh NO !!

I didn't go into the VW Touareg 3.0L thinking: gee, VW TDI four bangers dodged the dangling by the horse hairs SWORDS. Therefore the V6 and much more power SHOULD !

There are some on this board that think I am just a shrill for VW. Secondarily for diesels in general. However the majority of cars I have had in my life were GASSERS, and NOT VW's. Indeed I still own majority GASSERS. I have taken @ least three to 200,000 miles plus +. Another logical question would be why would I even want to gamble with that for a so called unreliable diesel ('s in my case)?? Trust me if any three were any more a gamble with lesser odds, I positively absolutely would NOT have made the switch (to diesel).

But the (obvious or so I thought) truth is: I personally have THE MOST to lose, especially with 3 VW diesels. If anything in my case, VW is really defying the odds as all three have been flawless. If you listen to some, ALL could have just as easily been ... lemons. Do I think I got all three A products? Not on your or my life. I think statistically, I did get C products or middle most. I am fairly sure I did not get the D/F grade products or lemons.

Indeed my first preference for the 2nd TDI (09 Jetta TDI) was in fact the BMW 330 D. The BMW X5 35D was not even a consideration.

tifighter · March 2013

The BMW X5 35D was not even a consideration.

Why not?

gagrice · March 2013

The BMW X5 35D was not even a consideration.
Why not?

I am curious about that as well. I liked driving the X5D when they first came out. There is a good supply in my part of CA. I do prefer the inline 6 cylinder design, though it takes up more space. My only complaint was the X5 seats being much harder than the Mercedes or my Sequoia. Not sure how that would affect me after 600 miles on the highway.

ruking1 · March 2013

The BMW X5 35 D most certainly was when I was considering the VW Touareg TDI, as well as the MB ML350 BlueTec. The MDX was the unofficial standard, sans not having a diesel engine.

The BMW 330 D was really for majority of commuting miles (78%) with up to 4 folks in the car. Anybody I knew that had BMW's 3 series and others and on line research indicated 30k high normal for 800+ per set tires. Both sets of H VW Jetta sedan tires are on track for 120,000 miles @ 490. Higher insurance costs and lower resale value %. Way more up front monies to own and no real dealing going on. Plus @ that time I had no real want/need to be able to pass chain controls points.

I think 500 and PLUS miles are not done by a lot of people. The longest I have done in the VW T has been 430 in a day. I have done as much as 965 to 1,100 in a day in other vehicles. But on those trips, I think it may have been much more fun to have more than one driver.

gagrice · March 2013

I thought BMW had trashed the Run Flats along with MB. No way would I buy any vehicle with Run Flat tires. Over priced rough riding CRAP. If BMW wants to continue their great run, they need to drop the RUN FLATS.

tifighter · March 2013

I test drove a X5D a few months ago, and it was fitted with run-flats.

fintail · March 2013

20mph average speed errand run today averaged 26.5mpg - I can deal with that.

Someone must be buying diesel cars - local MB dealer had 2 other E Bluetecs when I bought my car, both are now sold.

ruking1 · March 2013

I do not know this for sure, but there seems to be a lot of new (committed) MB's off load @ dealers from trucks hit their preparation/repair department and don't hit the inventory lists. It seems I get the calls when one hits the (local) dealer when a customer either changes their mind or cancels out.

gagrice · March 2013

My local bank manager hates his run flats. First week after he bought it he picked up a nail. They cannot be repaired. $380 for a new tire. That was on a 135i coupe. Can you just imagine what it would cost for an X5 tire?

I am seriously waiting on the 2014 Jeep GC diesel. Many innovations not offered on the competitors. NO RUN FLATS on JGC.

http://www.driveuconnect.com/system/2014/jeep/grand_cherokee/8-4an-ra4/

ruking1 · March 2013

From what I have heard and read about run flats, it is more than enough to make me raise the bar on getting cars that oem WITH run flats. There are a lot of opaque engineering and specification issues but higher costs, operational and acquisition and worse ride compliance can not be good observable things.

ateixeira · March 2013

Run-flats are the #1 complaint on the Sienna boards. They cost double but last half as long.

fintail · March 2013

Took the car on its first highway jaunt today, around 40 miles, 40mph average speed - mix of 65mph cruising and stopped-for-no-reason idiocy. 34.3mpg - not bad as the car doesn't yet have 300 miles on it, already beating the EPA estimate.

huntzinger · March 2013

Well, a diesel does make sense when it doesn't cost appreciably more than gas and delivers a lower cost per mile ... ie, better MPG at basically the same cost per gallon (diesel vs premium, which is what's the norm for MB).

-hh

crkyolfrt · March 2013

wow..so cool..a car of that weight..gas hybrids, eat your hearts out.. (while in your dreams)

Is this MB engine also one of those graphite iron type blocks? Ya know, I don't actually recall if any of the diesels I have ever read about, use aluminum blocks..

There is a strengthening two-piece oil pan to help offer up rigidity on the VW block. I would imagine MB must also use reinforcing measures too..

ruking1 · March 2013

I will leave it to Fintail to run the difference between MB E350 gasser/diesel.

But in an earlier post, I ran the difference between gasser Acua MDX @ 20 mpg RUG (VWT gasser competitor) vs VW T TDI @ 31 mpg.

Given current corner store prices (your basic variable ?)

$4.35 RUG/20 mpg = .2175 cents per mile driven

$4.33 D2/31 mpg = .13968 cents per mile driven

per mile driven costs RUG is .0778 cents more or +56%.

But i think your basic assumption is an outlier in terms of political and national policies and laws. Again not to get political, but when GB was POTUS, fuel was app $1.85 per gal. So indeed the current POTUS, BO has presided over his promise to raise the price of fuel.

Again not to bore folks with the results of a cheap calculator

, 135% rise/5 years=

27% per year. Well, BO POTUS is a tad behind, as his outgoing energy secretary had targeted European priced fuel (aka close to $10. USD gal)! But I think it is fair to say they are app half way there. (Damned Republicians !!!!!!)

fintail · March 2013

Exactly. For higher line cars that require premium, it's a no-brainer. Identical performance, fuel that in my area might cost 3-5% more at most, but sometimes 20% better mileage, and likely better resale/cheaper leases - I don't see a drawback. The adblue might be a hiccup, but it is easily refilled DIY.

fintail · March 2013

I don't have many gas vs diesel E350 comparisons, but I did drive a rented E350 about 1500 miles last year. Best highway cruising was about 31mpg (car had about 9K on it, should be fully broken in). I would expect 38-40 in similar driving with a diesel.

Not to be political, but I remember paying well over $4/gallon when GB was POTUS and a sneering unrepentant war criminal was at his side... there might have been a price collapse for a virtual instant, but there was also a severe run-up in the summer and fall of 08. Probably has more to do with dollar value issues/printing too much money, which is what happens when a bankster cabal has control of national finances no matter who is in office.

fintail · March 2013

I want to say it has an aluminum block with cast iron sleeves? But I don't really know. I assume the engine is reinforced as all diesels are usually overbuilt.

plekto · March 2013

Just a small note about the rising gas prices:

The real reason gas prices have gone up so much has nothing to do with Congress or who is residing at the White House.
http://wiki.fool.com/The_Role_of_Speculators_on_Oil_Futures

The problem is that giant financial institutions are hording and manipulating oil futures and driving up the price to the refineries. Which then have to pass the price along to the consumer. If you want to blame the right people, blame Wall Street and the big banks. Again.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/oil-speculation-raise-gas-price.htm
Here's a full length article about it, complete with videos and graphics.

ruking1 · March 2013

..."when GB was POTUS and a sneering unrepentant war criminal was at his side... there might have been a price collapse for a virtual instant, but there was also a severe run-up in the summer and fall of 08. Probably has more to do with dollar value issues/printing too much money, which is what happens when a bankster cabal has control of national finances no matter who is in office."...

In that case, DAMNED democrats !!

ruking1 · March 2013

I would hesitate, as I recall you rented those vehicles in Europe. Generally European cars get a US model Mr Hyde transformation, probably at the behest of the EPA, et al.

But still 39 vs 31 is still 25.8%.

fintail · March 2013

I've rented a 4cyl diesel E-class and 6cyl diesel 7er and A8 in Germany. The E was the smallest engine, and was fairly slow - but returned an amazing 44mpg overall - worth the sacrifice. The 7 and A8 each averaged around 33mpg - both including long stretches of triple digit autobahn cruising. I think the A8 3.0TDi is coming to the US. These cars do make large car gasoline hybrids seem kind of superfluous. I bet the S hybrid is a really tough sell right now.

gagrice · March 2013

I've rented a 4cyl diesel E-class and 6cyl diesel 7er and A8 in Germany. The E was the smallest engine, and was fairly slow - but returned an amazing 44mpg overall - worth the sacrifice.

That is precisely my sentiment concerning the ML250 Bluetec being sold in the EU. They claim about 37 MPG combined with US gallons. I could put up with 9 second sprints to 60 MPH with that kind of economy. The only time I need good acceleration is entering the Freeway. And that is usually 30-65 MPH time. That puts you in the diesel sweet spot for torque.

fintail · March 2013

My diesel E was an E200 - 0-60 around 10 seconds. But, in many places that might not be such a big deal. Similar performance to my old car, you just have to plan ahead on some roads. Nearly hybrid mileage in something the size of a modern E-class is nothing to sneeze at. I know for sure the E250 is coming for 2014, and I see no reason why we finally shouldn't get a diesel C. Both should easily have highway mileage in the 40s.

gagrice · March 2013

Somewhat Ironic that most of the good mileage vehicles are in the upper price range. Most folks that can afford them are not hurting that much from the price of fuel. I see high priced vehicles and fuel as a means to keep the masses off the roads and using buses, bikes or shoes. I think CA spends about 50% of gas tax on mass transportation. CA also gets 92% of the Federal gas tax back. Too bad they are so inept in building mass transit.

dudleyr · March 2013

Out of curiousity how much is the adblu per mile? What does that add to the cost per mile comparison?

crkyolfrt · March 2013

about 4 or 5 times at the dealer what it would cost you at Walmart. I'm curious about fintail's and others..ruking? take on this too, as my friend with the ML, recently asked me whether he thought it was safe to use Walmart type adblue fluid instead of MB branded fluid, and is there anything legal that makes your life complicated if you have problems later and then MB tries to point the blame toward your Walmart purchase?

edit- he also told me that MB says you must use THEIR windshield washer fluid, as the aftermkt stuff would dull his headlight lexan shields. hahahahahaha rothflmy butt off... What a buyer beware world we have tho..gotta know what matters and what doesn't..

I doubt VERY much that MB has literally designed their headlight covers to dull under exposure to foreign washer fluid..

gagrice · March 2013

It seems you can get VW brand AdBlue for about $5 per gallon. Generally you will get more than 1000 miles on a gallon of Urea. That would be less than half a cent per mile. If you let MB rip you off it is about 1.6 cents per mile.

dudleyr · March 2013

So if you get 40 mpg - or $.10 per mile (at $4/gallon) the adblue adds about 5% to your fuel cost with VW brand - not too bad. MB brand would be a 15% hit - that would be highly annoying.

Of course the percentage changes as the mpg does so ymmv.

ruking1 · March 2013

From WalMart (Peak) ad blue is $13.99 per 2.5 gal container. 2.5 gal BlueDef .0437cents per oz

For app 13,000 miles, The VW T TDI (3.0 L V6) used app 4.5 gal. /13,000 miles= $.001937 cents per MILE driven. SO using 30 mpg that adds $ .05811 cents per D2 gal.

In terms of use, that is .04431 oz per mile (less than half an oz for the math types)

This is a stretch and swag: but since the 2.0 L is smaller than the 3.0 L by 33%, one could apply that reduction until it is disproved by those using both ad blue and a TDI 2.0 engine.

gagrice · March 2013

This is a stretch and swag: but since the 2.0 L is smaller than the 3.0 L by 33%, one could apply that reduction until it is disproved by those using both ad blue and a TDI 2.0 engine.

I read somewhere that to get the 2.0L TDI to pass CARB emissions in the Tiguan and heavier vehicles it would have to have Urea injection. I think Honda would have to use urea to get theirs to pass as well. It is a fine line in the smaller engines.

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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