Got a Quick Question for a Car Dealer?

micosilver · July 2009

You are not clear about your initial agreement:
Did the salesman say that the sale price is $16,995 AFTER the rebate?
Or:
The sale price is $16,995 MINUS the rebate?
If you agreed to the price of $16,995, and they informed you that the price is after rebate - than all is good, you are supposed to pay taxes on a car before the rebate.
It sound like you didn't understand the offer clearly, but this is how is works: you have to pay taxes and fees before the rebate is subtracted.
It is legal.

stickguy · July 2009

You paid 18,500 for the car, and paid tax on that amount.

THe $1,500 was subtracted at the end to get you don to the 16,995.

rebates are taxed, so he did the correct thing.

The bigger question is, are you happy paying $500 off MSRP for the car to the dealer (the rebate comes from Hyundai)?

newcarbuyer12 · July 2009

I just looked up the rebates on the Hyundai web site and $1,500 is the right amount for the Touring version of the Elantra, so ignore my comment about it being $2,000.

That's for a different version of the Elantra.

boomchek · July 2009

Yes most reabtes are deducted after taxes are added on.

ldisler · July 2009

I know in NJ you pay tax after all rebates and trade value are subtracted. This is
the only time I've seen were NJ charges less tax, otherwise we're taxed out the wazoo.

british_rover · July 2009

You don't have property taxes on your cars either right?

joel0622 · July 2009

Nope they are being straight up with you.

back in the days before the internet and a 1000 programs the standard close was that you would tell a customer you will sell him the car for invoice including rebates. If it was a $1000 rebate then you automaticly had a $1000 deal because you would add $1000 back to the price, tax it, then subtract the $1000 again.

Really not a deceptive practice, just an easy way to close a deal. You were doing exactly what you promised. Buying the car for invoice including rebates.

That was back in the days when you negotiated from list down. Does not apply any more now that we negotiate from invoice down.

vangiebx · July 2009

Thanks for your input newcarbuyer12. The dealer offered the car for $16,995 and then said a rebate would be deducted. My last question is do I have to take the rebate? It is not helping me it is just adding to the cost of the car. Thanks again for your info.

deltheking · July 2009

Taking the rebate is definitely cheaper.Say the rebate in your case is 1500 and say the tax is 10%.So you pay an extra 150 for the 1500 rebate and so you save 1500-150=1350.
So how are you saving by not taking the rebate?

boomchek · July 2009

How's it adding to the cost of the car? You're paying less.

$16995 plus tax minus rebate. However you put it you save $1500 off the total price.

mej1965 · July 2009

I purchased a 2009 Chevrolet Traverse in April of 2009. This weekend I noticed the paint is starting to chip off in spots and has large circular blimishes in others. I took it back to the dealership today and they want to repaint the hood and buff out the other blemishes. I don't feel this is a fair resolution to this problem. Should they not have to a least repaint the whole car and if they do is that not going to devalue my car. What I would really like is a new car. Am I wrong for thinking a 2 month old car should not be having this problem and to expect it to look like a new car. I just need some advice. I can I say I wnated to buy american but am thinking I should have gone with the Honda Pilot.

exb0 · July 2009

As far as taxes on rebate, it's all legit. However, you are paying too much for this car. Go to Edmunds, figure out what the invoice is on this car, subtract $1500 from it, and that should be your price plus taxes and State fees.

jb_turner · July 2009

Rocks can make paint chip..
Cars dont just develop blemishes they are there or they are not. A proper paint correction will make it look fine.
You have a used car and the dealer will only take it back as a used car..... just the facts.

jipster · July 2009

Sounds like it may have already been repainted, and a crappy job at that. I'd take it to an independent body shop and get a second opinion.

verdugo · July 2009

You have a used car and the dealer will only take it back as a used car..... just the facts.

Not if it can be lemon'ed. :lemon: Then the car company takes it back and refund the sales price minus a small charge for miles driven. :shades:

mej1965, check your lemon state laws, and make sure from now on you document everything (photos of car, interaction with dealer/car company).

jb_turner · July 2009

Which state has a "lemon" law regarding chipped paint?

boomchek · July 2009

I think lemon laws would only apply if the vehicle has mechanical problems that cannot be rectified within a certain amount of time, within a certain number of attempts.

I'd suggest that the buyer lets the dealership do what they need to do, including repainting the hood and go from there. The car will not stay perfect forever with new paint anyways as over time chips and scratches will accumulate.

ldisler · July 2009

No property taxes on cars in NJ. But $7000 a year for municipal,county and schools.

2400 Sq ft rancher

stickguy · July 2009

You must live in the cheap part of the state.

british_rover · July 2009

I can't see any car getting lemon lawed for such a minor paint flaw. Even if the paint on the whole car comes off I don't think they would lemon law the whole car just fix the paint issue.

Remember the problems that Ford had with Full size Broncos back in the early and mid 1990s? Most of the paint on the car came off very early and Ford just paid to have the car repainted.

As to Honda's and paint I am sure Craig will crucify me for saying this but they always seem to have thin paint. Check out any Dark colored Honda that has been through more then a couple of winters up here in New England and the leading edge of the hood is usually full of pot marks and rock strikes. Plenty of other cars end up this way too over time if they get driven on the highway in the winter, and don't have some kind of clear bra installed, but Hondas seem to have the problem show up a year or two before other cars.

joel0622 · July 2009

A full repaint on the car would kill the value of it. Have the problems fixed as suggested. Glad to see the dealer helping you.

deltheking · July 2009

The whole repainting thing just kills the resale value unless u plan to drive it into the ground.
And BR,totally agree about the Honda paint issues.Even here in West Texas where it is really hot,Honda paint tends to fade much faster than other brands..And as u said--yes,Isell won`t agree to this as he says Honda cars are virtually unbreakable and have no road noise !!

fezo · July 2009

You must live in the cheap part of the state.

I must live in the real cheap part of the state - $5,200 for a 5 bedroom 2-1/2 bath....

I'm looking at possibilities in state. My folks old house is something like $8 - 10K. If one goes all the way to the northwest the taxes start coming down again.

Good advice in the Elantra. Negotiate the price THEN subtract the rebate. If you've already pulled the trigger forget about it. Not like they'll negotiate after that. It doesn't sound like a bad deal. Like anyone you hate walking out confused about the deal.

tjc78 · July 2009

I know in NJ you pay tax after all rebates and trade value are subtracted

That is only half right. You don't pay tax on trade in value, however, rebates come off at the end. So if you have a 10K car with a 5K trade and 1K rebate it goes like this:

10,000 - 5,000 trade = 5,000 + 7% = 5,350 - 1000 rebate = 4350

instead of 10000 - 5000 trade - 1000 reabte = 4000 + 7% = 4280

Jersey needs that $70 we aren't taxed enough!

tjc78 · July 2009

$5,200 for a 5 bedroom 2-1/2 bath....

Thats what I pay for a 1200 square foot rancher in Camden County :sick:

dhamilton · July 2009

I think that ship has left the harbor!!!

ldisler · July 2009

You are correct the rebate comes off at the end, unless it's manufacturer to dealer
money then it comes off before tax.

mej1965 · July 2009

Just asking, why would a full repaint kill the value more than just having the hood and fenders repainted?

joel0622 · July 2009

A total repaint instantly leads people to belive the problem was more then it was, there is always overspray, and it is not a factory paint job. It just throws up way to many red flags.. If I was going to trade a car I would rather have one with chips in the hood and a swirl mark or two then a total repaint.

boomchek · July 2009

I agree. It's especially true if a really bad repaint ruins the whole car beyond repair. I too would rather have a chip, dent, a swirl mark than a repaint.

dhamilton · July 2009

down a very deep hole. Chevy Traverse, and resale. The two have 0 in common.

psumommyof2 · July 2009

Hi Folks - Because I'm not a car leasing expert and not so good with numbers and such, I thought I'd post here for some opinions/assistance.

My 2007 Honda Odyssey (base model) lease is coming to an end. My maturity date is 10/21/09. I am trying to decide what my best option will be for when lease is up. I'm not sure if I should buy, hand it back and walk away, or what ever other options might be available.

If I need to share more info, please let me know.

The current payoff amount is $16822. The residual value on the lease agreement is $15481.

I am over mileage, I had a 15000/yr and am presently at 46500. I don't have another car to drive, so the over mileage will continue till I decide what I'm going to do next.

I would like to get my payments back down to something more reasonable, whatever option I choose. These lease payments are killing me, I was so foolish in my younger days..anyways, any help would be greatly appreciated.

tidester · July 2009

Please don't post the same message in multiple locations.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

deltheking · July 2009

It would depend on the over mileage penalty..generally it`s about 20 cents a mile.Don`t know in your case.So you must check your contract.
So say ,you drive 9k more miles for a total of 55k miles,that is 10k miles over.So 10000 miles x 20 cents= 2k.
Can you not afford any payments after your lease expires?Or are u looking for a lower monthly payment.Please give us more details as to your current monthly payment,mileage and wear and tear penalties.
Also a new base 07 Odyssey LX was selling for around 23-+Taxes.So the payoff amount of 16.8 seems quite high.
Do you think u can pay off the 15.4k balance if u decide to keep it.Do u like the van?
Please keep us posted.

carstryke · July 2009

Well im pretty green at buying vehicles and have never bought a new car before. My question is, whats a reasonable offer for a new vehicle compared to the sticker price? I know its obviously a little tighter if its a new car as opposed to a used car, and it varies dealership to dealership but any tips or advice would be great and appreciated. I pretty much dont wanna walk in there unprepared and end up paying sticker price or curveballing a offer to ridicious they will turn me aside.

psumommyof2 · July 2009

host - Sorry! I thought I might get different thoughts/opinions and wasn't sure which board had the most activity. Would you like me to delete the other ones, it was my mistake. Sorry.

deltheking - my over mileage penalty is 15 cents.
I can afford payments after the lease expires, I'm just looking for a lower monthly payment. I currently pay (please don't gasp too loudly) $538/month. I had some poor car decisions in the past and that is why this go around, as the lease comes to an end, I want to make an informed/smart decision on this.I have paid a lot more than what this van is worth, I'm certain of that. Everytime I look at it, I get upset with how dumb I was. Anyways, I do like the van, don't love the van, but it's dependable/reliable. It's a tad large for my small 3 person family (single mom with 2 kids), but when I bought it, i was trying to keep up with the "joneses" who were all carting their "perfect" families around in minivans..
Oh and the wear and tear penalties, i know I have a $1500 wear and tear allowance. The van looks pretty decent.

oldfarmer50 · July 2009

"...I would rather have one with chips in the hood..."

Speaking of chips. I was at the dealer yesterday having a minor warranty issue looked at on the new PT Cruiser. While waiting I took a stroll in their used car lot and found a 3 year old PT just like mine.

The dang thing had so many scratches in the paint that it looked like Freddy Kruger had been the detail man. I don't mean swirls, I'm talking deep scratches and gouges in the paint all over the hood and sides. Made you doubt how well the rest of the car was treated.

Why would a dealer put a car out on the lot looking like that? I would think that any one who bought the car would insist that the damage be repaired, so why not do it before offering it for sale?

I had the same thing happen when I bought my '97 Chrysler from another dealer. The salesman's response then was: "we don't take minor dents out of used cars".
I still bought the car but for less than I would have paid for an "eye candy" version. :confuse:

oldfarmer50 · July 2009

"...Well im pretty green at buying vehicles..."

I would say so. Asking a dealer what you should pay is like the lamb asking the lion "What's for dinner?".

Why don't you look at some of the purchasing strategy boards in the "Smart Shopper" section. If you're not up to reading "know-it-all" advice from 10,000 people you can go to the new car menu at the top of the page and get an Edmunds TMV price for any car. Lots of good info there.

Good luck, let us know how it went afterwards.

jipster · July 2009

My question is, whats a reasonable offer for a new vehicle compared to the sticker price?

Anything with a rebate shoot for invoice.. Make an out the door offer which includes everything (pay no more than $100-150 for doc fee.).

joel0622 · July 2009

What normally happens is when the UCM originally appraises the car he allows for the touch up work, Say the car is worth $10K and needs tires and touch up. So he its the car for $9K to cover reconditioning cost.

Then the negotiations begin, customer wants $11500 for the trade. so in the heat of the battle they cut the profit out of the deal and raise the trade to $10500. Now the smoke has cleared and the deal is done and you have what we call $1500 worth of water in a trade in. So instead of spending more money on the car and creating more water the UCM cleans up the car and puts it on the lot as is hoping some one will buy it, or at least have a chance to structure a deal including the repairs. Basically it is a instant spiff car. LOL

imidazol97 · July 2009

>Make an out the door offer which includes everything (pay no more than $100-150 for doc fee.).

Second that.

document fees discussion

Check Edmunds Incentives under the new car info for dealer cash and consumer incentives to determine how much rebate is on the car.

Know the cost of title and temporary plates if that's what you'll need so when fees are quoted you'll know if they upped with so document fees.

Negotiate an out-the-door price, bottom line, including sales tax, to have the clearest purchase process. Take a calculator with you and a notepad.

exb0 · July 2009

Current wholesale book value for your van is around 14K. Honda doesn't negotiate payoff amounts. You either pay the residual or turn the vehicle in. Honda is very lenient on wear and tear. As long as you don't have any dents that cost over $500 to repair, you are good to go.

In your case I would not buy this van off, if you don't need a van. You can buy a nice reliable Hyundai Sonata for $15-16K. If you want another Honda lease, go here http://automobiles.honda.com/current-offers.aspx and check current offers out.

My advise would be to suck it up, finish your lease obligation and buy something else then. However, do your research next time. Go to Edmunds to determine what the invoice is, subtract all the incentives and rebates and offer that plus taxes and State fees. Also, get pre-qualified for a loan to determine max interest that you should pay. Go to www.Bankrate.com and use their calculators to figure out monthly payments. And, don't buy anything in the F&I office.

bvdj84 · July 2009

Is it true that a company say "VW" can only roll so much negative equity into a new deal? I was told that that I have have approx $6,000 negative equity, now I am not sure how legit this is. But VW would take $3k, and I would have to pay $3k into the deal. But, with their $3k, its still being rolled into the deal, making my payments go up still. Surely, there has to be a way that it can all be rolled into the deal, but then it would still blow my payment out the door. I am just not sure what to believe. The dealer could have easily spiked it to just keep me from moving out.

What can I do to get a true fair market trade value for my car.
2008 Pontiac G6 4cyl, sedan, red, leather, roof, xm. approx 18,000miles.
39mth lease, 23mths left.

Can I just go to a dealer and ask them how much they would be willing to give me?
Either going to VW or a Honda product. Also, do you really think I am $6k upside down. I just want out!! My engine has been acting weird(transmission).
There has to be a way. People trade all the time.

Thanks to anyone that can help

grandtotal · July 2009

Also, do you really think I am $6k upside down. I just want out!! My engine has been acting weird(transmission).

Yes, you could easily be $6k upside down. If your transmission is playing up why not take it to the dealer and have them fix it under warranty? Probably not what you want to hear because I have the feeling you want a VW or Honda and not a Pontiac.

bvdj84 · July 2009

lol, well I have been to the dealer. It is definitely under warranty. However, they cannot duplicate the issue. The issue is, that they probably don't get the car warm enough in town for it to truly show itself. We all get to know our cars and what is not right. I am so tired to going to the dealer. They do give me nice rentals in such, but it gets old. I am thinking after vacation, I will try it again.

Yes, I never wanted the car. Never would I have picked a GM car. I had my heart set on a 2.0T VW, or a new 08 Accord. I ended getting this car, because I had to lease another car for a family member(their lease was up, original lessee was not approved), they get to drive the 08 Jetta, and VW would not let me lease 2 VW's or keep the 06 Accord lease I had and keep the new Jetta. So the dealer knew that GM would approve me, I signed 2 contracts on the same day. They sold Pontiac, and I did end up with a loaded car, but not what I wanted anyway.
But, I have to think of the nice thing I did, I gave up my very loved Accord so that I could obtain a new lease for family.

But, I feel like I am being punished. It meant alot to the family member, I have to be sensitive about talking about how its acting up. In fact, I told her everything is fine. Its just a car, but its not right for GM to rip me off. That is what they are doing if they are not upholding their end of the contract. I have had $1,500 in repairs, and rentals already!!

isellhondas · July 2009

" why would a dealer put a car out on the lot looking like that?"

Good question.

Every lot is run differently. we wouldn't do that. Especially with a hard to sell PT Cruiser we probably would have wholesaled it.

Fixing stuff like that is expensive. they may be selling the car cheap hoping a buyer won't care.

We took in a Toyota Hybrid last week. It's a 2004 with, I think around 90,000 miles. From 20 feet away, it looks great. When you take a close look at it it has extensive hail damage. I mean BAD hail damage!

The dent guy wants 2000-2500 for fix this. It would be a several day long miserable job!

So, we tagged ti cheap! A nice Prius with hail damage a new owner may not care about. If someone wants a cheap hybrid to commute with, it would be perfect!

If someone does care, they can spend a lot more money on one without dents!

deltheking · July 2009

Yup,Best advice would be to pay off the lease and do not buy the van.Not to make u feel bad,but right now the new 09 Odyssey LX has a lease payment of 299/month.But this would definitely help u the next time u go to buy a car.U will be a much better informedAnd also I think 14k for a base 07 Odyssey with 55k miles is a tad too high.Trade in would be at 11k as generally folks prefer the EX-L odysseys used.
If u dont need a big van,then u can get a late model low mileage Hyundai --for a great deal.
Also do some surfing on Edmunds for the new car and used car prices,financing options and these forums which can really help u make an informed decision.

grandtotal · July 2009

I knew there was more to this story than met the eye. You did a good thing for your family member.

I had transmission problems with a Honda. The dealer tried to reproduce it and couldn't. I didn't blame them, if they can't see the problem they can't fix it. So, I took the car back and drove it around until the problem was showing and then drove back to the dealer. I called the dealer and asked for someone to come and try it again (didn't even want to switch the engine off because that reset the problem). Anyway, long story short the mechanic experienced the problem and I got a new transmission.

imidazol97 · July 2009

Agree with grantotal.

Make an appointment with the dealer to have their knowledgeable mechanic or service manager drive the car after you drive it and it's acting up. Do not turn off the car; just pull into service and pick up the person.

If you have an appointment and the car's not doing it that day when you're driving it under the right conditions, just call them an tell them it's not doing it make another appointment another day; the mechanic and service manager will use the free time on another job with no trouble.

bvdj84 · July 2009

Very true. But, per Edmunds, I am not the only one to have issues with my car.

But, I will just drive it, until my values become better, and I will bring it back to the dealer again. I am so done though.

I work too hard to pay that kind of money on a "lease". If I wanted problems, I would buy used. But, I know,.... no car is perfect. But, have a Catylic converter replaced already is silly and crossing the line a bit, and so would rebuilt tranny.

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