Beyond the predictable supply-demand swing, a few dealers have openly tried to game the system by using bait-and-switch tactics, misleading advertising, and other unethical practices which will make it worse for the whole industry
Unfortunately, that is how the industry has always been. There will always be dealers that do that, regardless of how the economy or supply is. There are crooks in every profession. Is there not?
"...heavy discounting right now is not necessary..." What I'm hearing here is that some dealers are outright stealing. Refusing to sell below MSRP might be a supply and demand thing but refusing to give mfg. rebates or scrap value money or holding cars hostage seems real dishonest not to mention short-sighted.
In the end the consumer has the power. He/she can walk. If they don't like the deal, use the door.
In short order things will swing back in the buyer's favor and then we can get some good "the grinders are killing me" stories again.
BTW, I'm happy to see that you didn't raise your prices. I think you'll see more business in the long term even if you passed up the quick buck now. There are some folks who have long memories. They tend to be old farts like me who have money stuffed in the mattress.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I have never raised my prices one penny. I am just not as willing to discount as much as before because heavy discounting right now is not necessary to sell cars. There is a big big difference between raising prices and discounting.
Ha! Ah, only car salesmen can play word games like that, and make it sound so good!
If you sell a car for $X, and then turn around and sell the exact same car for $X + 3K because they used C4C, use all the word plays you want, you just did raise the price.
Ha! Ah, only car salesmen can play word games like that, and make it sound so good!
If you sell a car for $X, and then turn around and sell the exact same car for $X + 3K because they used C4C, use all the word plays you want, you just did raise the price
Only someone with absolute distrust for this profession would call it "word games".
I am the same with everyone that comes into my store. If you were C4C, you would still get a deal, but I want to make some profit. If you came in looking for a hard car to get, like a Mazda5, there was very little discount to give regardless since inventory is now sold out. C4C or not.
Every case is different with every customer. Selling a car for $XX,XXX to one person and then $XX,XXX + $3,000 to a C4C buyer is an extreme exaduration. That was never the case in my store. In reality, we maybe made a couple hundred more per C4C transaction. That came per order of the company owner.
I have heard the horror stories that dealers were holding rebates (unlawful unless it is dealer cash) and refusing to deliver the new car until the C4C was approved (again unlawful). My store never did such things. We run a clean and honorable business.
The extent of my what you would call "pillaging" was making a couple hundred more on a C4C transaction then a normal one. Even so, in every instance, everyone got a deal of some sort. There was no gouging or rebate holding going on here. Everyone took delivery of their new car, and I have a lot full of clunkers.
>- A 2003 Chrysler bought by a resident burst into flames less than five hours after it was driven off the lot, the Torrington Register-Citizen reported.
>Ord said he planned to ask the dealership for a refund, and the dealership said it planned to oblige, the newspaper reported.
Nice of the dealer to refund the price of the car. Technically this would be on the owner's insurance policy, wouldn't it? They owned it as they drove it home.
BTW Kristi, the days of dealers living in modest homes in suburban developments are long gone -- most dealers live in big, beautiful mansions because they make PLENTY of profit on the cars they sell.
Where do you come up with this nonsense??? LOL!!!
The average car salesman makes less then 50K per year. Get real.
His comment regarding most DEALERS is accurate. Do you not understand the difference between the words "dealer" and "salesman"?
I know many "Dealers" personally who own one or multiple stores. They all live in very nice places, but not what I would call "mansions".
And why shouldn't they? They have millions of their own money invested, generally have worked hard, provide jobs to a lot of good people, and for the most part, are well regarded in their communities.
They do strive to make a profit on not only the cars they sell, but their parts' /service business as well. Just like any business. Welcome to the USA. Not too hard to understand.
"...They all live in nice places...They have millions of their own money invested..."
I think that's the point a lot of people miss. If you are well off in this country it is much more likely that you took great risk and worked hard to obtain it. For every successful business owner there are three who lost every penny they had.
I find the politics of envy in this country to be a sad trend. If people let a salesman talk them into something they later regret that doesn't make the dealer Bernie Madoff. If the dealer does something illegal, call the cops. If it's not illegal, learn from the experience so they can't get you next time.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
"I think that's the point a lot of people miss. If you are well off in this country it is much more likely that you took great risk and worked hard to obtain it."
The vast majority of people who now own New Car Dealerships simply inherited it from their family. Car dealerships are the highest users of nepotism. They didn't work for it, were just born into the right family.
SKILAU: That was the best post I have read today. "If you sell a car for$X, and then turn around and sell the exact same car for $X + 3K because they used C4C, use all the words you want, you just did raise the price"....Now that certainly might not NOT sense to aviboy97....but it sure as hell makes sense to me!!!!! I am sure he will have a well educated explanation!!!!! I posted this after his explanation... I was right...he did have an explanation.
Yeah, as was said, I think car dealerships are often "family businesses"...inherited companies, and often places where incompetent cousins and nephews can find employment. For the most part, it takes money to make money.
Class warfare is a new reality in a devolved trickled down socio-economic spectrum more divided than at any time since before the depression. It's only going to get worse.
When I worked in Michigan during grad school, one of the others from my University was the son of a dealer in NJ IIRC. I tried searching for his name and came up with a dealership with his name connected to it. Surprise.
>family businesses"... inherited companies, and often places where incompetent cousins and nephews can find employment.
Would that conjure up the Kennedy name for examples?
I definitely agree. We spent a week narrowing down what we wanted to a Honda CR-V LX. Our clunker qualified for $4500. However, dealers in the area either were not participating or did not have the cars in stock.
On Friday, a last CR-V EX at a dealership (about $2000 more than what we wanted to pay) was sold from under our nose before we began to negotiate.
On Saturday, we tried to get another last CR-V EX at a dealership a lot further away, although we didn't like the color as much. It turned out that they would not budge one penny from the MSRP. What's more, they failed to provide us with any estimate of the “scrap value” of our trade-in. That is, without even finding out what the trade-in was, the scrap value would be zero. Both things are in violation of the CARS law.
We were so disgusted that we left. We would never visit the Hoffman Auto dealers in CT ever again!
I have nothing against them either...those who behave in some boundary of ethics, anyway. The rest...well, the French dealt with them pretty well, once.
It turned out that they would not budge one penny from the MSRP. What's more, they failed to provide us with any estimate of the “scrap value” of our trade-in. That is, without even finding out what the trade-in was, the scrap value would be zero. Both things are in violation of the CARS law.
Not budging from MSRP is in violation of the CARS law? Since when?!?
Ditto for us as well. We could not locate a CRV EX-L w/ Navi in the color combo we wanted. When the rules changed and dealers were allowed to take orders for incoming vehicles we tried again. Visited and exchanged emails and phone calls with about 15-20 different dealers. One dealer wouldn't let us place a deposit on an incoming car that matched what we wanted or except our qualifying car.
Right when CARS came out, we had a quote of $27,085 from 3 different dealers, as time went on and dealers showrooms were flooded, those dealers backed out on their written quotes.
I could care less about recovering any of the scrap value, but the demand this program created drove prices up. We opted to sit on the side lines, since an additional vehicle is a luxury for us, and not needed.
As far as CT dealerships, I'm about 30-40 minutes outside of plenty of NY dealers and prefer to give them my business and avoid the $295 CT junk conveyance fee.
If the C4C/CARS program starts back up and allows consumers to benefit with a rebate and still retain the ability to negotiate deals similar to pre-CARs, we'll be back.
Most people that have these clunkers drive inexpensive, older vehicles because they can't afford a new car payment. I do believe this program drew in plenty of people that were taken by dealers and got into payments they can't afford.... let's see how that shakes out.
While I understand the lack of trust for salespeople/car dealerships, since I actually wanted to benefit from the CARs program but not pay more than a pre-CARs transaction, and won't be buying a vehicle under this program. I actually get more upset with the consumers that went in, bought vehicles, and overpaid. Because these people are uneducated and still the majority. It makes those of us that have a little more knowledge of the cost structure have work a harder to get a fair deal.
I had discussions with two professionals I work with, both well educated, and had no idea what a good deal on a new car is. One buying now, was getting a few hundred dollars off MSRP and was excited, he was also buying two cars...UGH!
Got a great deal under the C4C program. Took my old 2000 Ford Explorer in and received $4500 towards a new 2009 Honda CRV EXL/navi in the colors we wanted. Carmax only offered $3000 to buy it from me and I had not luck selling privately for over $4500. I received several online quotes from area Chicago dealers for the CRV. The lowest were right around $26,000 off of a sticker price of $29,600. I think we were on the lucky side as this dealer we bought from honored the quote and even let me put $500 down to hold the CRV over the weekend while I shopped for a better deal. We bought the CRV this past Mon (8/17). Sounds like tomorrow is the end of the program. Get out early and make a deal to cash in!
One buying now, was getting a few hundred dollars off MSRP and was excited, he was also buying two cars...UGH!
What kind of car was he buying though?
A few hundred off of MSRP might be the right price for an in demand model without incentives.
I know I had one person who had a clunker that thought we were trying to hold back incentives when in fact he was getting all of them.
There was $7,500 back on this particular car plus demo money of another $1,000ish and then another $1,000ish of our own discount. I think in total we were $800 above cost but this was a while ago so I don't remember exactly.
About 10,000 dollars off plus his 3,500 dollar clunker wasn't good enough though.
He thought there were another $2,500 dollars in total incentives on the car. Even after I showed him our incentive print out and showed him our invoice he wouldn't believe me. The incentives he was looking for were rebates not dealer cash anyway so I had to give them to him if they were on the car he was looking at. I don't know if he was just confused or if the website he looked at was wrong he wouldn't tell me where he looked them up.
The money he was looking for was on another larger model that wouldn't qualify for C4C and had about an 8,000 dollar Higher MSRP so wouldn't have worked for him.
After he started saying that our invoice was wrong, the invoice he was thinking was for a base car with no options which would be almost $2,000 cheaper, and that he didn't have to pay the destination charge because the car was a demo I gave up. I sent him on his way and the car, which happened to be the last one of those we had in stock, was sold by one of our other salespeople the next day.
Two Honda's both EX-Ls, a CRV-$1900 between published invoice and MSRP + $500 MFG to dealer cash and Accord-Has $2400 between published invoice and MSRP + $1500 cash or financing.
No clunker, no trade ins....still think a few hundred off is a good deal???
Well published invoices are always a little off because there are usually regional ad fees or something else missing.
That makes a few hundred off of MSRP for the CR-V probably about right. You gotta figure 300ish for a Regional Advertisement fee maybe a little more so that eats up most of the dealer cash plus a few hundred off, lets say 500 bucks, and on a low supply model that sounds about right to me.
The Accord is a bit more problematic but if they cash is only 1,500 bucks and they are offering special financing I would probably take the financing anyway. What is MSRP on a EX-L accord now upper 20,000 range? You will have more then $1,500 bucks in finance charges financing an amount like that over 60 months. It would depend on how low the financing rate is.
You seem to believe that you have a constitutional right to buy a car at invoice , minus rebates. You are the one who is misguided.
It is all supply and demand. And the dealers have the right to charge whatever the market will bear. Don't pretend that you are morally superior to the dealer.
A Pontiac dealer advertised an 09 G6 for $6789 plue $2000 down. I have a 1998 Jimmy that qualifies for $4500, but the salesman said the car would actualy cost $13000 plus. WTF? BTW they are selling 2010 Pontiacs. I thought GM (Government Motors) had dropped the Pontiac line? WTF? :confuse:
We got the okay from the bank (been with this bank since I was 16) last Monday. Had already done my research and decided which car, DH got on the phone trying to local the car in the right color on the lot, and we headed up Wednesday driving my '89 Chevy Van G20 (14 mpg). Good engine but the body was falling apart. We have been planning on buying another for almost a year and kept putting it off.
Got half way through all the paperwork when the salesman says they won't allow us to take the car until the govt approves it, they also applied a fee, and we never heard them mention anything about the scrap metal. They told us probably Tuesday we could get the car (we don't live in the same town....it's about an hour drive). They offered to let us leave the van but we had to get home AND I needed something the rest of the week...duh?
OH, and while I had 4 yrs of registration forms in the van, and I had all the insurance cars going back about 2 yrs, we had changed insurance, and the other insurance company had keyed in the wrong VIN# on their paperwork. We had to go to the insurance company and get them to fax it with a new VIN#, that would have delayed our getting the car that day anyway.
Friday they called and said we could pick up the car on Saturday and we have it here now. I bought a 09 Honda Fit. I did a lot of research (this site was a huge help).
We would have bought a car anyway, however, we wouldn't have gotten a new car, this is our first new car, and I would have most likely gone a little bigger (maybe Civic or Accord). And honestly, the payments aren't as bad as I expected and we are doing a 4 yr loan instead of 5.
I actually get more upset with the consumers that went in, bought vehicles, and overpaid. Because these people are uneducated and still the majority. It makes those of us that have a little more knowledge of the cost structure have work a harder to get a fair deal.
Actually, under normal circumstances (plenty of supply and no time limit), others paying more should mean we can pay less. The dealers can get their profits from those who pay more and boost their volume bonuses from selling to us at lower prices.
I think you ran with my comment a little out of bounds. You may have misread my "pre-CARS" comment, or I should have explained my prior experiences.
I have purchased/leased my last 5-6 vehicles under published invoice, where rebates/ dealer cash has been available. Based on my experiences over the past several years that's what I expect and will continue to seek, if it's not there...I don't buy.
Dealers can sell there vehicles for whatever they choose to, and I in turn will decide if I spend.
I see your point... then after C4C is over Monday at 8PM and inventory is back up to it's typical supply, in a few months, and showroom traffic has died down, we'll see what the market dictates... I'll in turn post on a 2010 CRV
"...consumers that went in, bought vehicles, and overpaid..."
I personally think that their own greed got them. Some buyers got all starry eyed about "free" $4500 handouts and they did no homework. They just assumed that the car salespeople would be waiting to kiss their feet and give the cars away for free That was like jumping into the shark tank and saying: "Look he's smiling, it must be OK". Some dealers saw the opportunity to put their balance sheet into the black for the year and took it. Some of the short-sighted dealers took it too far.
Of course the media shares some of the blame for hyping this all up. the "Parade" magazine in the Sunday paper was still advising that dealers are desperate and will give you great bargains. People read that and just assume they will get the cars for next to nothing. Supply and demand is a tough master. When the lot is full you get a better deal than when the lot is empty.
I'm just wondering, those professionals you were talking to. Don't they have computers? The first day I was on Edmunds I learned 90% of everything I needed. The other 10% is a closely held secret known only to the salespeople. :shades:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
"....A Pontiac dealer advertised an 09 G6 for $6789 plus $2000 down...but the salesman said the car would actually cost $13000 plus..."
I'm assuming this is a new car. Go back and read the screamer ad that you probably got your info from. The tiny print at the very bottom probably says something like : "price assumes $4500 cash for clunker rebate, factory rebate, military rebate,horse breeders rebate, farmer's rebate and $2000 cash or trade to dealer plus title, tax and licence".
If you don't qualify for all of the rebates or if you want to buy a car other than the puke green model, you have to pay more. It's a trick to get the greedy and uninformed into the showroom.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Understanding what you could before the program started, going in and making your deal before the program started and being prepared with all of your paperwork the day that the program started was key for us. Thanks to Edmunds, the sticker on our car was $22,700 and we bought our car for $18,000. Take the $4500 off of that, we had ourselves a nice deal. My husband and I agreed that if we were not able to get the "what others are paying" type deal as put out on this site, we would not have purchased the new car.
I'm not sure if "greed" would be an accurate way to describe the purchasers who did not get a good deal as another poster mentioned. Rather, excitement about getting a "good deal". Plus, many probably turned in vehicles worth much, much less than $4,500.
If the people who turned in their clunkers feel like they got a good deal, then they should enjoy their new ride.
If you don't qualify for all of the rebates or if you want to buy a car other than the puke green model, you have to pay more. It's a trick to get the greedy and uninformed into the showroom.
One of the oldest tricks in the car sales book. My partners wife saw an ad like that in the Anchorage paper for a new 4WD Ranger. It was Cal Worthington Ford ( Go See Cal). She went down with the ad and it was the ugliest purple color. But the price was well under invoice and they needed a PU Truck. She bought it in spite of the salesman trying his best to switch her to a much higher priced truck. They still have the truck. The color kind of grows on you with the years.
As far as whining about the dealers raising their prices as the lots empty. What do people expect? If I get taken in a car deal, it is MY fault for not doing my homework. Getting caught up in the frenzy of C4C is not an excuse. With the knowledge afforded by the Internet and email to get the deal in writing, there is no excuse that I can think of for being taken by a car dealer. I know people that hate to haggle with a car salesman, and accept the price as posted. Hey that is their choice. Those people keep the lights on and the salesman eating. You can be assured by the end of September the deals will return for those astute shoppers.
Unless Sam ups the anti. Maybe $5500 for any old wreck in trade and we can really generate some sales. No cap or limit on what you buy. New or used. If Congress could just KISS.
If I get taken in a car deal, it is MY fault for not doing my homework. Well said!!! People getting free 4.5K for junk and complain about "rised" price. If you don't like the price, wait 2-3 month, come back to the dealer and buy a new car.
are you guys crazy busy today since it's the final day? Just curious if there were a lot of 11th-hour deals being done.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
If you sell a car for $X, and then turn around and sell the exact same car for $X + 3K because they used C4C, use all the word plays you want, you just did raise the price.
I can only imagine someone answered this question already....
No he didn't raise the price.......... The price is dictated by the market. If they are selling at that price everywhere why wouldn't you do the same thing? Have youever gone to a restuaraunt and ordered Lobster? That price changes everyday. One day it could be $5.99 a pound and than the very next day.... smae resturaunt it could be $8.99 a pound....
As a dealer we see the reports of what everyone elses gross margins are for a car. So once again why wouldn't a dealer raise their price..... The CFC is over now. But inventories are still low.
Bottom line everyone is whinning that dealers are raising there prices, but hey ya know what? CFC's are not the only people buying vehicles. CFC's is not the only thing driving the business. And if you feel prices are to high.... well you have the option of not buying a vehicle. You want a really good deal. Buy on Christmas Eve. Everyone wants to get out so fast that day anyway.
Most people that have these clunkers drive inexpensive, older vehicles because they can't afford a new car payment. I do believe this program drew in plenty of people that were taken by dealers and got into payments they can't afford.... let's see how that shakes out.
Before the program started I thought the same thing you just stated. But after experiencing CFC.... I realized my self and you were wrong. Many of CFC people paid cash for the vehicles....and all had excellent credit.... When the program was running out this week, I seemed to run into a lot of "bottom feeders".... Especialy this weekend.
It was so heartbreaking to tell consumers that we stopped the program as of last Friday.
Consumer: "But the govt says it runs through Monday 8pm and you have to honor it"
Me: No sir the program was on a voluntary basis.... Dealers chose to participate.
Consumer: "So you don't want my business (whining)"
Me: No sir I would be happy to appraise your vehicle and give you current market value.
Consumer: "No forget it, you don't want my business I will go to someone that does"
Me: Ok sir have a great day.
That conversation happened about 10 times with myself alone Saturday sand Sunday......
It was a blast to participate in this program. I can only imagine what might happen if any one dealer doesn't get "their" money and has to close down or go after consumers, or already scrapped the vehicle but didn't get their paper work in on time becuase it got rejected the first time because the person filing the claim on the govt end didn't know what they were doing.
Maikng the popcorn now so I have something to eat when the excitment happens.
I had discussions with two professionals I work with, both well educated, and had no idea what a good deal on a new car is. One buying now, was getting a few hundred dollars off MSRP and was excited, he was also buying two cars...UGH!
It is never the "deal" you get when buying a vehicle.... It is the "Deal" you "think" you get....... :surprise:
If a person felt they were treated right and recieved good service and don't squabble over getting the best deal and are happy why should say they are not as "smart" as you.... The thing you may not understand is what happens for those folks down the road when they need service. They might get free loaners, vehicles dropped off at their house. Maybe a dealer will go out of their way to keep said customer happy.
Most people that have these clunkers drive inexpensive, older vehicles because they can't afford a new car payment. I do believe this program drew in plenty of people that were taken by dealers and got into payments they can't afford.... let's see how that shakes out.
What is this based on? Is this just your opinion?
Every clunker deal I know of personally (granted, not that many) was by a person driving an older car because it still worked and because there was no immediate need to get a new car. Some people actually hold on to their cars and don't get a new one every 3 years.
That doesn't make a clunker owner poor or unable to afford a new car. It makes them financially savvy because they know cars are a depreciating asset. Read The Millionaire Next Door. It's not always the people in the biggest houses and expensive cars that have the money.
C4C was a good opportunity for these people to get a good value for their old car and get a more fuel efficient car that they will probably keep for 10 years.
I have no problem if you sell MSRP or not discounting at all based on supply demand. But i do have issue when a dealer provided a quote and when i went in the quote is no longer guarantee because C4C. Sure not all dealer conduct this tactic but i have visited about 3 different dealer who employed this. Yes the C4C take extra time but don't price me with non sense sale. C4C program is supposedly help auto industry on slumping sale yet some dealers took way too advantage of consumers. like i heard yesterday on radio where your sale when the C4C program end. karma does bite.
His comment regarding most DEALERS is accurate. Do you not understand the difference between the words "dealer" and "salesman"?
Relax....he was NOT accurate and here is why.
The term "dealer" and "salesman" are commonly referrd to as the same person in these threads. Since you want to get technical, the owner of a dealership is usually referred to as the "dealer principle". "Dealer" is just a type of business.
If that person wanted to be specific, he should have said "dealer owner" or "dealer principle".
That doesn't make a clunker owner poor or unable to afford a new car. It makes them financially savvy because they know cars are a depreciating asset. Read The Millionaire Next Door.
Makes you wonder if Warren Buffett cashed in his 9 year old clunker Lincoln.
Comments
Unfortunately, that is how the industry has always been. There will always be dealers that do that, regardless of how the economy or supply is. There are crooks in every profession. Is there not?
What I'm hearing here is that some dealers are outright stealing. Refusing to sell below MSRP might be a supply and demand thing but refusing to give mfg. rebates or scrap value money or holding cars hostage seems real dishonest not to mention short-sighted.
In the end the consumer has the power. He/she can walk. If they don't like the deal, use the door.
In short order things will swing back in the buyer's favor and then we can get some good "the grinders are killing me" stories again.
BTW, I'm happy to see that you didn't raise your prices. I think you'll see more business in the long term even if you passed up the quick buck now. There are some folks who have long memories. They tend to be old farts like me who have money stuffed in the mattress.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Ha!
Ah, only car salesmen can play word games like that, and make it sound so good!
If you sell a car for $X, and then turn around and sell the exact same car for $X + 3K because they used C4C, use all the word plays you want, you just did raise the price.
Ah, only car salesmen can play word games like that, and make it sound so good!
If you sell a car for $X, and then turn around and sell the exact same car for $X + 3K because they used C4C, use all the word plays you want, you just did raise the price
Only someone with absolute distrust for this profession would call it "word games".
I am the same with everyone that comes into my store. If you were C4C, you would still get a deal, but I want to make some profit. If you came in looking for a hard car to get, like a Mazda5, there was very little discount to give regardless since inventory is now sold out. C4C or not.
Every case is different with every customer. Selling a car for $XX,XXX to one person and then $XX,XXX + $3,000 to a C4C buyer is an extreme exaduration. That was never the case in my store. In reality, we maybe made a couple hundred more per C4C transaction. That came per order of the company owner.
I have heard the horror stories that dealers were holding rebates (unlawful unless it is dealer cash) and refusing to deliver the new car until the C4C was approved (again unlawful). My store never did such things. We run a clean and honorable business.
The extent of my what you would call "pillaging" was making a couple hundred more on a C4C transaction then a normal one. Even so, in every instance, everyone got a deal of some sort. There was no gouging or rebate holding going on here. Everyone took delivery of their new car, and I have a lot full of clunkers.
>Ord said he planned to ask the dealership for a refund, and the dealership said it planned to oblige, the newspaper reported.
Nice of the dealer to refund the price of the car. Technically this would be on the owner's insurance policy, wouldn't it? They owned it as they drove it home.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Where do you come up with this nonsense??? LOL!!!
The average car salesman makes less then 50K per year. Get real.
His comment regarding most DEALERS is accurate. Do you not understand the difference between the words "dealer" and "salesman"?
And why shouldn't they? They have millions of their own money invested, generally have worked hard, provide jobs to a lot of good people, and for the most part, are well regarded in their communities.
They do strive to make a profit on not only the cars they sell, but their parts'
/service business as well. Just like any business. Welcome to the USA. Not too hard to understand.
The trick is to use only 100s....much softer.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I think that's the point a lot of people miss. If you are well off in this country it is much more likely that you took great risk and worked hard to obtain it. For every successful business owner there are three who lost every penny they had.
I find the politics of envy in this country to be a sad trend. If people let a salesman talk them into something they later regret that doesn't make the dealer Bernie Madoff. If the dealer does something illegal, call the cops. If it's not illegal, learn from the experience so they can't get you next time.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I had a problem with that...1000's work even better.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The vast majority of people who now own New Car Dealerships simply inherited it from their family. Car dealerships are the highest users of nepotism. They didn't work for it, were just born into the right family.
I am sure he will have a well educated explanation!!!!! I posted this after his explanation... I was right...he did have an explanation.
Class warfare is a new reality in a devolved trickled down socio-economic spectrum more divided than at any time since before the depression. It's only going to get worse.
>family businesses"... inherited companies, and often places where incompetent cousins and nephews can find employment.
Would that conjure up the Kennedy name for examples?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There are loads of folks that build it from nothing but they're a minority.
I've got nothing against rich people...I hope to be one some day.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
On Friday, a last CR-V EX at a dealership (about $2000 more than what we wanted to pay) was sold from under our nose before we began to negotiate.
On Saturday, we tried to get another last CR-V EX at a dealership a lot further away, although we didn't like the color as much. It turned out that they would not budge one penny from the MSRP. What's more, they failed to provide us with any estimate of the “scrap value” of our trade-in. That is, without even finding out what the trade-in was, the scrap value would be zero. Both things are in violation of the CARS law.
We were so disgusted that we left. We would never visit the Hoffman Auto dealers in CT ever again!
Not budging from MSRP is in violation of the CARS law? Since when?!?
Right when CARS came out, we had a quote of $27,085 from 3 different dealers, as time went on and dealers showrooms were flooded, those dealers backed out on their written quotes.
I could care less about recovering any of the scrap value, but the demand this program created drove prices up. We opted to sit on the side lines, since an additional vehicle is a luxury for us, and not needed.
As far as CT dealerships, I'm about 30-40 minutes outside of plenty of NY dealers and prefer to give them my business and avoid the $295 CT junk conveyance fee.
If the C4C/CARS program starts back up and allows consumers to benefit with a rebate and still retain the ability to negotiate deals similar to pre-CARs, we'll be back.
Most people that have these clunkers drive inexpensive, older vehicles because they can't afford a new car payment. I do believe this program drew in plenty of people that were taken by dealers and got into payments they can't afford.... let's see how that shakes out.
I had discussions with two professionals I work with, both well educated, and had no idea what a good deal on a new car is. One buying now, was getting a few hundred dollars off MSRP and was excited, he was also buying two cars...UGH!
Edmunds posters are truly the minority
High end was $300,000 and just under 2,000 square feet.
One was $240,000 and the other $270,000 both around 1,600 square feet.
All of those values are a little below the average value for the area.
My house would probably be value out in that same range if I didn't live in a comparatively cheap town.
What kind of car was he buying though?
A few hundred off of MSRP might be the right price for an in demand model without incentives.
I know I had one person who had a clunker that thought we were trying to hold back incentives when in fact he was getting all of them.
There was $7,500 back on this particular car plus demo money of another $1,000ish and then another $1,000ish of our own discount. I think in total we were $800 above cost but this was a while ago so I don't remember exactly.
About 10,000 dollars off plus his 3,500 dollar clunker wasn't good enough though.
He thought there were another $2,500 dollars in total incentives on the car. Even after I showed him our incentive print out and showed him our invoice he wouldn't believe me. The incentives he was looking for were rebates not dealer cash anyway so I had to give them to him if they were on the car he was looking at. I don't know if he was just confused or if the website he looked at was wrong he wouldn't tell me where he looked them up.
The money he was looking for was on another larger model that wouldn't qualify for C4C and had about an 8,000 dollar Higher MSRP so wouldn't have worked for him.
After he started saying that our invoice was wrong, the invoice he was thinking was for a base car with no options which would be almost $2,000 cheaper, and that he didn't have to pay the destination charge because the car was a demo I gave up. I sent him on his way and the car, which happened to be the last one of those we had in stock, was sold by one of our other salespeople the next day.
No clunker, no trade ins....still think a few hundred off is a good deal???
That makes a few hundred off of MSRP for the CR-V probably about right. You gotta figure 300ish for a Regional Advertisement fee maybe a little more so that eats up most of the dealer cash plus a few hundred off, lets say 500 bucks, and on a low supply model that sounds about right to me.
The Accord is a bit more problematic but if they cash is only 1,500 bucks and they are offering special financing I would probably take the financing anyway. What is MSRP on a EX-L accord now upper 20,000 range? You will have more then $1,500 bucks in finance charges financing an amount like that over 60 months. It would depend on how low the financing rate is.
It is all supply and demand. And the dealers have the right to charge whatever the market will bear. Don't pretend that you are morally superior to the dealer.
Got half way through all the paperwork when the salesman says they won't allow us to take the car until the govt approves it, they also applied a fee, and we never heard them mention anything about the scrap metal. They told us probably Tuesday we could get the car (we don't live in the same town....it's about an hour drive). They offered to let us leave the van but we had to get home AND I needed something the rest of the week...duh?
OH, and while I had 4 yrs of registration forms in the van, and I had all the insurance cars going back about 2 yrs, we had changed insurance, and the other insurance company had keyed in the wrong VIN# on their paperwork. We had to go to the insurance company and get them to fax it with a new VIN#, that would have delayed our getting the car that day anyway.
Friday they called and said we could pick up the car on Saturday and we have it here now. I bought a 09 Honda Fit. I did a lot of research (this site was a huge help).
We would have bought a car anyway, however, we wouldn't have gotten a new car, this is our first new car, and I would have most likely gone a little bigger (maybe Civic or Accord). And honestly, the payments aren't as bad as I expected and we are doing a 4 yr loan instead of 5.
Actually, under normal circumstances (plenty of supply and no time limit), others paying more should mean we can pay less. The dealers can get their profits from those who pay more and boost their volume bonuses from selling to us at lower prices.
I have purchased/leased my last 5-6 vehicles under published invoice, where rebates/ dealer cash has been available. Based on my experiences over the past several years that's what I expect and will continue to seek, if it's not there...I don't buy.
Dealers can sell there vehicles for whatever they choose to, and I in turn will decide if I spend.
I personally think that their own greed got them. Some buyers got all starry eyed about "free" $4500 handouts and they did no homework. They just assumed that the car salespeople would be waiting to kiss their feet and give the cars away for free That was like jumping into the shark tank and saying: "Look he's smiling, it must be OK". Some dealers saw the opportunity to put their balance sheet into the black for the year and took it. Some of the short-sighted dealers took it too far.
Of course the media shares some of the blame for hyping this all up. the "Parade" magazine in the Sunday paper was still advising that dealers are desperate and will give you great bargains. People read that and just assume they will get the cars for next to nothing. Supply and demand is a tough master. When the lot is full you get a better deal than when the lot is empty.
I'm just wondering, those professionals you were talking to. Don't they have computers? The first day I was on Edmunds I learned 90% of everything I needed. The other 10% is a closely held secret known only to the salespeople. :shades:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I'm assuming this is a new car. Go back and read the screamer ad that you probably got your info from. The tiny print at the very bottom probably says something like : "price assumes $4500 cash for clunker rebate, factory rebate, military rebate,horse breeders rebate, farmer's rebate and $2000 cash or trade to dealer plus title, tax and licence".
If you don't qualify for all of the rebates or if you want to buy a car other than the puke green model, you have to pay more. It's a trick to get the greedy and uninformed into the showroom.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I'm not sure if "greed" would be an accurate way to describe the purchasers who did not get a good deal as another poster mentioned. Rather, excitement about getting a "good deal". Plus, many probably turned in vehicles worth much, much less than $4,500.
If the people who turned in their clunkers feel like they got a good deal, then they should enjoy their new ride.
One of the oldest tricks in the car sales book. My partners wife saw an ad like that in the Anchorage paper for a new 4WD Ranger. It was Cal Worthington Ford ( Go See Cal). She went down with the ad and it was the ugliest purple color. But the price was well under invoice and they needed a PU Truck. She bought it in spite of the salesman trying his best to switch her to a much higher priced truck. They still have the truck. The color kind of grows on you with the years.
As far as whining about the dealers raising their prices as the lots empty. What do people expect? If I get taken in a car deal, it is MY fault for not doing my homework. Getting caught up in the frenzy of C4C is not an excuse. With the knowledge afforded by the Internet and email to get the deal in writing, there is no excuse that I can think of for being taken by a car dealer. I know people that hate to haggle with a car salesman, and accept the price as posted. Hey that is their choice. Those people keep the lights on and the salesman eating. You can be assured by the end of September the deals will return for those astute shoppers.
Unless Sam ups the anti. Maybe $5500 for any old wreck in trade and we can really generate some sales. No cap or limit on what you buy. New or used. If Congress could just KISS.
Well said!!! People getting free 4.5K for junk and complain about "rised" price. If you don't like the price, wait 2-3 month, come back to the dealer and buy a new car.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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I can only imagine someone answered this question already....
No he didn't raise the price.......... The price is dictated by the market. If they are selling at that price everywhere why wouldn't you do the same thing? Have youever gone to a restuaraunt and ordered Lobster? That price changes everyday. One day it could be $5.99 a pound and than the very next day.... smae resturaunt it could be $8.99 a pound....
As a dealer we see the reports of what everyone elses gross margins are for a car. So once again why wouldn't a dealer raise their price..... The CFC is over now. But inventories are still low.
Bottom line everyone is whinning that dealers are raising there prices, but hey ya know what? CFC's are not the only people buying vehicles. CFC's is not the only thing driving the business. And if you feel prices are to high.... well you have the option of not buying a vehicle. You want a really good deal. Buy on Christmas Eve. Everyone wants to get out so fast that day anyway.
GP
Before the program started I thought the same thing you just stated. But after experiencing CFC.... I realized my self and you were wrong. Many of CFC people paid cash for the vehicles....and all had excellent credit.... When the program was running out this week, I seemed to run into a lot of "bottom feeders".... Especialy this weekend.
It was so heartbreaking to tell consumers that we stopped the program as of last Friday.
Consumer: "But the govt says it runs through Monday 8pm and you have to honor it"
Me: No sir the program was on a voluntary basis.... Dealers chose to participate.
Consumer: "So you don't want my business (whining)"
Me: No sir I would be happy to appraise your vehicle and give you current market value.
Consumer: "No forget it, you don't want my business I will go to someone that does"
Me: Ok sir have a great day.
That conversation happened about 10 times with myself alone Saturday sand Sunday......
It was a blast to participate in this program. I can only imagine what might happen if any one dealer doesn't get "their" money and has to close down or go after consumers, or already scrapped the vehicle but didn't get their paper work in on time becuase it got rejected the first time because the person filing the claim on the govt end didn't know what they were doing.
Maikng the popcorn now so I have something to eat when the excitment happens.
GP
It is never the "deal" you get when buying a vehicle.... It is the "Deal" you "think" you get....... :surprise:
If a person felt they were treated right and recieved good service and don't squabble over getting the best deal and are happy why should say they are not as "smart" as you.... The thing you may not understand is what happens for those folks down the road when they need service. They might get free loaners, vehicles dropped off at their house. Maybe a dealer will go out of their way to keep said customer happy.
GP
What is this based on? Is this just your opinion?
Every clunker deal I know of personally (granted, not that many) was by a person driving an older car because it still worked and because there was no immediate need to get a new car. Some people actually hold on to their cars and don't get a new one every 3 years.
That doesn't make a clunker owner poor or unable to afford a new car. It makes them financially savvy because they know cars are a depreciating asset. Read The Millionaire Next Door. It's not always the people in the biggest houses and expensive cars that have the money.
C4C was a good opportunity for these people to get a good value for their old car and get a more fuel efficient car that they will probably keep for 10 years.
Busy with regular deals.... We stopped doing CFC on Friday morning :shades:
GP
Relax....he was NOT accurate and here is why.
The term "dealer" and "salesman" are commonly referrd to as the same person in these threads. Since you want to get technical, the owner of a dealership is usually referred to as the "dealer principle". "Dealer" is just a type of business.
If that person wanted to be specific, he should have said "dealer owner" or "dealer principle".
Kristie-
We delivered our last 2 "clunker" deals this morning. We are working on getting them submitted successfully.
We stopped taking "clunker" deals once the news came out on Friday that the Govt. was ending the program.
Makes you wonder if Warren Buffett cashed in his 9 year old clunker Lincoln.