The R3 was in the regular Studebaker brochures. The fact that it cost so much extra (I think it was $1,031 in a base-model Lark) is what kept production down to nine Avantis and one Lark...not to mention Studebaker's widely-known precarious financial position at that time. It only was available for the '64 model year, which started in late September and ended Dec. 20, 1963. Canadian production, post-December 20, did not include any 'Avanti' engines.
I am not aware of any 800 hp Chevy or Toyota engines available for checking off in the regular sales brochure, installed at the regular factory.
The one Lark survives and is beautiful and has been featured in car magazines. It is a Strato Blue (dark) Commander two-door sedan, which was a low-line model, although with the high-performance packages received bucket seats, carpeting and other various heavy-duty parts. It was shipped to Albany, NY.
Wasn't the first Studebaker V-8 called a "Bear Cub"?
The early '50's Stude V8's were called "Bearcat", but I'm thinking that started with the '55's. My interest is much more with the '62 and later vehicles.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Perhaps a better question would be, "Did any other production car engine triple its horsepower from the date the engine was first introduced, in eleven model years?" Then, Studebaker would probably be the champ (no pun intended).
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
While it's true that Studebaker didn't have a bank of R3 engines sitting around next to the 259's and 289's, there were still a factory option and advertised as such. The install was done in South Bend and the car sent directly to the Studebaker dealer afterwards.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I enjoy the show but like Pawn Stars, I'm convinced the "picks" are all staged.
Last night I watched the rerun where they found a 1950 Champion sitting in a barn. They said it hadn't been driven in 50 years and it looked the part. It was as bad as anyone couple imagine.
They dragged it out, paid 2200.00 for it and another 700.00 to have it delivered.
An "appraiser" looked it over quickly. He said the floors were solid, some rust in the trunk and declared it to be worth 3500.00-3800.00.
The guys wre estatic!
Sounds like a whole lot of work to "maybe" make a few hundred dollars.
The part that gets me is when they drive 1000 miles and buy a few oddball items like a sign. It'll say they paid 100.00 and expect to maybe sell it for 125.00. What kind of a profit is that?
I do enjoy the show but I think it's, for the most part all staged. Pawn Stars is even more of a sham.
Nice try, but nobody has named another engine (other than the Studebaker V-8) that TRIPLED (not doubled) its horsepower based on its original engine block Try to distinguish all you want, the Avanti R-3 engine was available from the factory as a production engine. Sure, it used a supercharger, but GM engines had fuel injection and turbocharging, and none of them tripled their original power.
The 1949 Oldsmobile Rocket V8 of 135 hp. and got as high as 325 hp 1n 1963-1964. The 1963 Sky Rocket got to 325 horsepower as did the 1964 Starfire.
In 1962 and 1963 Oldsmobile also built a turbocharged version of the “215" (a Buick engine). It was only rated at 215 hp and used distilled water and methyl alcohol (dubbed "Turbo-Rocket Fluid") to keep from knocking. Oldsmobile then designed a “second generation of Oldsmobile V8s that was produced from 1964-1990 and was the last V-8 that used a carburetor
The Cadillac went from 160 hp in 1949 to 325 hp in 1963 when it was “redesigned.” Not close to a triple.
The Chevrolet V- went from 162 hp to 375 hp. Sorry , but no triple (162 x 3 = 480)
The 265 ci V-8 was bored out to 3.875 in (98 mm) in 1957, giving it a 283 cu in (4.6 L) displacement. The first 283 motors used the stock 265 blocks. However, the overbore to these blocks resulted in thin cylinder walls. Future 283 blocks were recast to accept the 3.875 bore. Five different versions between 185 hp (138 kW) and 283 hp (211 kW) were available, depending on whether a single carb, twin carbs, or fuel injection was used. Fuel injection yielded the most power.
Therefore, beginning at 185 hp, in 1957, the redesigned V-8 got to its most powerful 370 hp as follows: .
The LT-1 was the ultimate 350 cu in (5.7 L) V8, becoming available in 1970. It used solid lifters, 11:1 compression, a high-performance camshaft, and a 780 CFM Holley four-barrel carburetor on a special aluminum intake with ramhorn exhaust manifolds and a low-restriction exhaust to produce a factory rated 370 hp (276 kW) (the NHRA rated it at 425 hp for classification purposes) and 380 lbft (515 Nm). Redline was 6500 rpm but power fell off significantly past 6200 rpm. The LT-1 was available on the Corvette and Camaro Z28. Power was down in 1971 to 330 hp (246 kW) and 360 lbft (488 Nm) with 9:1 compression, and again in 1972 (the last year of the LT-1, now rated using net, rather than gross, measurement) to 255 hp (190 kW) and 280 lbft (380 Nm).The final version of the Generation I” continued through the end of the production run in 2003; =====================================================
Try again to name a production engine that was available and ordered from the local car dealer, assembled at the factory, and had three times power of the original version without redesigning the engine block. The Studebaker V-8 hits the only triple.
...a Zip Van, built in South Bend in '63 and '64 and in fact built after regular production stopped in South Bend, to complete the contract.
They were OHV sixes, automatic trans, and Twin Traction.
I absolutely remember when our small-town post office had them. My Dad worked there. Supposedly, the Post Office got rid of their last ones in '70 or '71.
Yeah, the numbers don't work out well When I was younger my parents were spare time hobbyist antique dealers, and my dad loved to go out "junking" on weekends. We never found anything like they do on that show - of course, this area isn't as old as the midwest, but still. The best luck was always from wanted ads or good old estate and yard sales.
Pawn Stars doesn't even try to be realistic...at least I hope not. Just like Storage Wars. It can be fun to watch, but take it with a grain of salt, it's a reality show.
Is "Pawn Stars" the show with the old guy who drives a '61 Caddy and has his son and a goofus named "Chumley" who works for them? I've only seen that once, maybe twice. I do like "American Pickers". While I didn't see the episode, I heard they found a bullet-nose Stude last season and overpaid for it. Duh, I guess that's the show you're talking about! The bullet-noses were the highest-production Studes ever, and a lot survive, and it seems like some people like 'em to rod (they must remember the Muppet Movie--'A bear in his natural habitat, a Studebaker'). I'm not a fan of 'em myself, but consider that a function of my age.
Somewhere not too long ago, I heard that the two guys on "...Pickers" had a space set up at Hershey, not all that many years ago.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Yep, that's Pawn Stars. It's good for a laugh, but sometimes it can be pretty obvious as a staged event.
On Pickers, they have bought the bullet nose, IIRC a 40 Dodge that was pretty rough, and a 67 Fairlane that needed a lot of work. They aren't the best car chasers.
It's not going to fly, sorry. The R-3 is a custom built engine built by outside contractors, not Studebaker. This included specially made cylinder heads, custom intake, custom valves, custom machined camshaft and special headers, and a supercharger. Any NASCAR engine built from a stock Chevy block would easily exceed 3X the original HP and without a blower.
Still, it was a formidable engine for the time but even the excellent performance couldn't save the Avanti, because the general public didn't like the styling of the car.
I guess I told you that Pawn Stars grabbed a friend of mine right off the street and asked him to pose as someone selling an antique chest. He was Eddie, my barber in Sausalito, and he's an ex-boxer. He's a hoot, but he certainly knows nothing about antique Victorian hope chests, I can assure you.
My last comment on the subject is, it was not made by contractors. Paxton Products was a division of Studebaker Corporation. And it is a Studebaker block.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Oh yeah, I remember that. I had a friend visit there not long ago, apparently it is a tourist destination there. and wildly overpriced. The guys who run that place hit the jackpot.
Maybe they'll buy a Studebaker sometime...they have bought a few other cars.
Studebaker's 1951 V-8 was factory rated at 120 hp and the 1964 R3 Avanti engine - completely hogged out, hand-built, modified, and blown to boot - was factory rated at 335 hp. Independent dyno claims for the R3 to hit and surpass the "triple hp" mark is a stretch. Look at what dyno readings can do to boost the (alleged) output of any hand-built hot rod engine!
Dyno irregularities aside, factory supplied hp ratings are always debatable. So what's left to debate? Seems like it's the same old same old: "Studebaker was the best ever-est, first-est in pony cars, most horsey of horsepower!"
That's the fan clamor which remained after nobody wanted to buy a Studebaker. At least not enough to keep Studebaker in the car biz. And the idea of pitting the Studebaker V8 against the mighty Mouse Chevy V8? Only Studey fans can sleepwalk their way through that "argument."
I'm a Mustang fan, but they really did not come from the factory with a special speedometer calibrated to Mach 1 - unless you special-ordered the R-code "Boss" 351 engine, half-way through the first model year, from a high elevation dealer in Denver, with a Shelby autograph on the glove box and well...there's the Marti report to contend with, too.
Ah well, every car club has it's myths and heroes.
A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
I always tell my kids it's okay to admit stuff. It's OK for Big Three lovers to admit that Studebaker did some pretty amazing things that no other independent did...I mean, look at what AMC was doing at the same time. I grew up in a GM family but in old cars, I got so damn bored with seeing the same old stuff at car shows, I really learned to appreciate Studebakers for their differences in styling and their surprising performance in certain models their last ten years of existence.
I'd say you've never read any Muscle Car Review magazines, concerning the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags in mid-Michigan. Stude R3's (acceptable since they were factory-offered) routinely spank cars like six-pack 440's and GM muscle. I'd imagine you could google it. They've had Big Three guys pull out of running against R2 and R3 Studes before, at the last minute, simply to save face. That's no joke. Pretty pathetic when it's all supposed to be in good fun.
Lastly, only a genuine idiot would believe the stuff you posted (in exaggeration) about "factory" Mustangs. None of the stuff posted here about R3 Studebakers has been anything I haven't read a dozen times in other places...and well-documented. Opinions about styling or whatever...OK, everybody has opinions. But there hasn't been anything posted here by anybody that could parallel what you've implied when you talk about "factory Shelby-signed glove boxes" et al.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
A '66 dodge 440 would have a faster ET than an R3, so you'd lose at the dragstrip and by about a second, though the Avanti might get the initial jump.
And a Dodge Dart GTS 440 would slap an R3 silly I'm afraid all the way down the track.
0-60 is pretty meaningless in a 1/4 contest, as you probably know, because it drag racing has a lot to do with gearing and the power band of the engine.
So the E.Ts tell you that the car that won is the one that did not fall out of the engine's power band after each shift in the 1/4 mile.
Sadly, the R3s impressive performance publicity didn't seem to filter down to the actual "real" showroom R2 cars. "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" didn't work for Studebaker, for a number of reasons. Does a Ford GT40 really sell Mustangs? Doubtful.
1. The styling was controversial. You either liked the Avanti or you hated it
2. There were serious production delays. The fiberglass bodies didn't have good fit and finish, and so Studebaker ended up having to make the bodies themselves (they were originally farmed out). These snafus were deadly for a cash-strapped company.
3. Superchargers of that vintage were noisy and very expensive to repair. You could buy a normal Corvette 396 and go just as fast or faster for the same $$$.
4. The R3 was as rare as hen's teeth. Only 9 of them appeared, hardly enough to make an impression on the street.
A company's "swan song" is often its best effort, that is true. The last Pierce Arrows, the last Auburns, the last Duesenbergs, were all among their most interesting cars. But this speaks to desperation as much as to a viable business plan I think.
I'm not aware of a single factory-installed Dodge Dart 440. I'm quite certain it wasn't shown as an option on a Dart in the factory brochure.
There were ten R3's, not nine.
The car that spanks 'em at the Pure Stock Musclecar Drags is a two-door sedan Lark Challenger, with the aerodynamics of a brick. It's Bermuda Brown and is known as "The Plain Brown Wrapper".
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
The list of victims included: a 1970 LS-6 Chevelle, a 396-powered Nova, a 1970 Challenger with a 440 Six Pack and W-30 1970 Oldsmobile 4-4-2. Harbit drove Krem's car to consistent 13-second times with a best time of 12.85 seconds at 111 mph.
Those early Studebaker V-8's weren't very good engines while Chevy got it right the first time with teh 265's.
Right. Chevrolet got the 265 engine so right (four years after the Studebaker V-8) that they had to redesign for 1957 just to get to 283 cu.in. because the cylinder walls were too thin. That must be a record - - major engine block modification before reaching 300 cu. in.
The main criticism of the Stude V-8 was that it was too heavy. It was approximately 35 pounds lighter than the Cadillac V-8 and 40 pounds heavier than the Oldsmobile V-8.
It's not going to fly, sorry. The R-3 is a custom built engine built by outside contractors, not Studebaker
Sorry, Studebaker and Paxton products were both owned by Studebaker in 1963 & 1964. Here is the Studebaker entry in the 1963 custom built engine category.
The fuel injection system was used in the experimental Avanti that generated 500 hp and went 197 mph at Bonneville.
The R-3 engine is a HAND-BUILT, hot rod engine. It does not have Studebaker off the shelf parts. It was not made on the Studebaker assembly line. It's as much a "special construction" as the Dart GTS 426 Hemis built for drag racing (which no R3 is going to beat by the way).
As for the Dart GTS 440, is it any less of a car than a Yenko Camaro because of dealer installations?
So really, you want to *include" custom hot-rodding as valid when it fits your case, but exclude it when it challenges it? Now, really gentlemen......
One cannot can't cherrypick and incident or two in drag racing, which has so many variable like the skill of the driver to rewrite history. It's simply not good historical research practice.
note:
"Harbit-one of the best four-speed shifting racers in the country, with eight NHRA titles under his belt"
note:
" In 2004, the car ran against 20 more celebrated muscle cars and won 17 times"
So in other words, it lost 3 times.
Besides, you guys are in love, and this undermines objectivity.
If these cars were so great, they wouldn't be dead. We always need to look at the "whole picture" when judging an historical event.
Doing justice to Studebaker requires that we tell the whole story.
I'm not aware of a single factory-installed Dodge Dart 440. I'm quite certain it wasn't shown as an option on a Dart in the factory brochure.
I think the Darts were sent out to Mr Norm, or something like that, for the 440 transplant and other beefings up. In '68, you could get a 426 Hemi in the Dart or Barracuda. I think they made either 50 or 75 of each, but again, I think they were sent out, rather than being made in-house.
The Hemi Darts were extremely stripped down, too. Rear windows made stationary. Front windows designed to slide up and down like the window in a school bus. Bucket seats out of the A100 van, which were a bit lighter than regular Dart buckets, or even the bench seat. You also got this little notice when you bought a Hemi Dart:
They decided to go to a 283 instead of a 265 during the horsepower race era. I never once heard of an early 283 causing any trouble but to their CREDIT, they beefed up the blocks.
The first Stude V-8's had oiling problems as I recall. No such problems with Chevys.
Anyone ever heard of anyone putting a Studebaker V-8 into a hot rod?
Hey, I really am a Studebaker fan but they were what they were!
I've heard that the Chevy smallblock is junk, but usually the source has a Mopar or Ford bias. Or even B-O-P.
However, I have heard from several of those sources that the block was weak. Supposedly, when first engineered, it was TOO weak, but instead of doing a ground-up redesign, they simply added to it, which made it heavier than it should have been.
And, for such a small block, it IS pretty heavy. I've seen sources quoting it at 575 lb, versus something like 525 for the Mopar smallblock and 500 for the later Ford. IIRC, even the old-fashioned poly-head Mopar "wideblock" 318 was only around 550 lb, yet physically, it looked big enough that people often mistake it for a big-block.
Now, that being said, I've had two 305's. An '86 Monte Carlo that my Mom bought new, and had 192,000 miles on it when I got T-boned in it in 1998. And an '85 Silverado that my Granddad bought new, and I still have, with around 135,000 miles on it. Other than an oil leak here and there, and a little puffing at start-up, it's still alive and kicking!
I think 305's and 350's tended to eat crankshafts back in the late 70's. But, I'm sure if you poke and prod around enough, you'll find enough dirt on just about any engine ever built!
A 440 Dart would not be allowed to compete at the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags. There must be documentation that the engine was available in that car from the factory.
Even R2's surprise a lot of people at those 'Drags. The driver of Krem's car has a '63 R2 Lark that's red that he calls the "Stude Tomato". I'll have to look up some Big Three cars he's spanked with that one.
It's just admitting that they did a lot with what they had. I'm not the son of a Studebaker employee or dealer; I just learned to admire them, independently.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Studebaker's 1951 V-8 was factory rated at 120 hp and the 1964 R3 Avanti engine - completely hogged out, hand-built, modified, and blown to boot - was factory rated at 335 hp.
Wrong . All R-3 engines were bench tested at 335 hp at 5,280 rpm before they were installed in the cars. They would turn well over 6,000 r.p.m. and the tachometer for the R-3 Avanti went to 8,000 r.p.m. Funny how GM cars get to use outside vendor turbo-charging, fuel injection and carburetors, but all R-3 parts have to be from the existing Studebaker parts bin.
The first Stude V-8's had oiling problems as I recall. No such problems with Chevys
Wrong again. You have the Studebaker V-8 mixed up with the 1955 Packard V-8. The Stude V-8 did not have any oil problem. The early 1951s had soft camshafts, as did some of the GM products built much later. I am putting together a list of all the Oldsmobile defects that happened much later. At lease Studebaker could supercharge its V-8 engines without adding water/ alcohol injection to keep them from knocking.
If these cars were so great, they wouldn't be dead. We always need to look at the "whole picture" when judging an historical event.
I guess the Auburn, Duesenberg, Cord, Hudson, Packard, Oldsmobile and Pontiac were bad cars too. BTW, this is the second time Chrysler is getting bailed out by the US government. :shades:
Studebaker COULD have gone to outside vendors for parts but they probably didn't have the money to do this. Moe power to them for being able to be resourceful.
Yeah, I stand corrected, I remember now it was soft cams that were the problem. 1955 Pontiacs had the same problem. I don't recall any other GM cars that flattened cams off hand unless people skimped on oil changes.
As far as oiling problems, the Ford Y-blocks were so bad on this that outside oilers were often installed.
The gummy oils especially the ones that came in the yellow cans were just great at gunking up engines and restricting oil flow in those days.
Wrong . All R-3 engines were bench tested at 335 hp at 5,280 rpm before they were installed in the cars.
:surprise: Well, if you're objecting to the term "factory rated" and prefer "bench tested," then I still don't see what the fuss is about. The upper register of the Avanti tachometer could have been 8,000 or 10,000 RPM but so what? What would be the difference had they put a 200-mph speedo in a Studebaker Lark?
Dyno figures can be manipulated by factory engineers, specialty engine builders, or even marketing execs. My friend, Mopar race cars put everything else on the trailer in 1964 - no matter what the Studebaker brochure promised.
RE:GM outsourcing for special engine parts/tuning Again, what's the point? Everyone did that. During that same era, Shelby hooked up with AC Cars to build a Ford V8 powered sports car which would later become the Cobra. By 1965 the Shelby American Daytona Coupe won the World Manufacturer's Championship GT class. Who cares if that magnificent performance was featured in a "brochure" or available at your local Ford dealer? It ran like stink and beat Ferrari! :shades:
edited to add: so the "emotorcons" don't work anymore? :confuse: :sick: :lemon: hmm...
A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
Mr. Norm's Grand Spaulding Dodge ... brings back memories as a kid with their fast paced radio commercials on WLS! Mr. Norm did a lot of customizing on Mopars. He actually worked closely with the Chrysler factory on many of these and gave them some ideas as well. You could pretty much get any Mopar modification physically possible. Ironically, it wasn't as big of a dealership building as many in the suburbs, but it did a lot of out of state deals as well. Still, back then Chicago was really a big GM town.
The ten cars built number was a function of the downhill sales slide of Studebaker and the fact that they were only offered for less than three month's time before the South Bend plant shutdown.
I'm laughing when I type this, but this is the first time I've seen "17 out of 20" turned into something negative.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I really enjoyed those video clips. I had not seen them before. Here is a web page about George Krem's R-3 Challenger, , aka Plain Brown Wrapper. http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/151/
Of course, a lot has to do with the driver and how the engine is running, and even the weather, but "The Plain Brown Wrapper" and the "Stude Tomato" are legendary at the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags. They've changed a lot of minds up there.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I like like this video clip (Plain Brown Wrapper) because the Chevy was definitely ahead at the beginning of the race. I did not intend to start a drag race discussion. I intended to discuss the strength of the original Studebaker engine block which was originally designed for 120 horsepower. I enjoyed the direction the discussion took, but I want to clean up some facts/figures I stated earlier posts.
In November 1986, Special Interest Autos (SIA) did a great story on the R-3 Avanti. It isreprinted in the Hemmings Motor News Book of Studebakers. It said that every R-3 engine was actually run on a dynamometer to 335 hp at 5,350 rpm and that it had a three hour break-in period. If the engine had the optional dual valve springs, the engine could rev to 8,000 r.p,m. If it had the high output supercharger pulley it would produce 400 hp at 6,000 r.p.m.
That is why I said the Stude V-8 was the only engine to triple its horsepower from its original version. (120 h.p. x 3 = 360). The factory rating of 335 hp was not the top horsepower the R-3 ordered from the factory could achieve. Every R-3 engine was actually tested to that figure. Studebaker did not want to release horsepower figures because it could not match engines like the “big-block Chevy 409" which was introduced in 1958, seven years after the Studebaker V-8.
The same SIA article also says that “a stock R-2 Avanti topped 158 mph at Bonneville” and “The previous top speed for an American production car was the 153 mph attained by Mickey Thompson in a Pontiac Catalina."
Therefore, the second fastest Studebaker Avanti (R-2) was also the second fastest production car in America (behind the 170 m.p.h. R-3). I would like to know how long it held that position.
Stranger things have happened... a very stock looking DeSoto like this one once made drag racing history!
But to be fair, it took the know-how of one Arthur Fonziarelli to hop that car up for Richie to win a drag race. And, of course, he had to put it back to stock before Mr C. found out!
I've told this story before, but back in college, the general manager at the Denny's I worked at told me he had a '57 DeSoto Fireflite 4-door hardtop, pink and white, that was his first car. He paid $500 for it. This was in 1965, and it was considered a loser car since it was big, had tailfins, and was an orphan. But it laid waste to many a cooler car, whose owner had the extra embarrassment of being whipped by a "loser".
He ended up getting rid of that DeSoto and bought a '57 Chevy Bel Air convertible with a 283. Also pink (dunno why this guy had a thing for pink) and also for $500. It was regarded as a much, much cooler car, obviously, but was a dog compared to that DeSoto. If you wanted to take on that DeSoto with a Chevy Bel Air, about the only way you'd do it was with fuel injection, or maybe dual quads and a stick. Both cars being stock, of course.
I've told this story before too but I love happy memories.
In high school, this dorky friend of mine was shopping for a used car with a very limited budget. He couldn't afford the Chevy he wanted and ended up finding a 1957 Dodge that an "old lady" (probably 50 or so) was selling for 400.00. He wanted me to take a look at it.
It was a low mileage gold and white 4 door Custom Royal that was like new inside and out. All of a sudden I spotted the D500 badge on teh trunk lid and told him...." BUY IT" and he did!
You have NO IDEA what that big gaudy Dodge could do to a 327 Chevy!
He even beat a mighty GTO one night but it took him three blocks to do it.
I learned about Center Plane brakes on that Dodge and how crappy they were. Oh, what a sleeper that Dodge was withit's mighty Hemi V-8 and..OH, how it used gas!
It was actually the 348's that came out in 1958 and they stayed around until 1961, The 409's came out in 1962.
I was speaking of the date the big-block Chevy engine arrived. By the time the Studebaker R-series engines arrived in 1962, it was a 409 and beyond what Studebaker V-8 could match in horsepower. My mistake for not being specific enough about the origin of the engine.
Comments
I am not aware of any 800 hp Chevy or Toyota engines available for checking off in the regular sales brochure, installed at the regular factory.
The one Lark survives and is beautiful and has been featured in car magazines. It is a Strato Blue (dark) Commander two-door sedan, which was a low-line model, although with the high-performance packages received bucket seats, carpeting and other various heavy-duty parts. It was shipped to Albany, NY.
Here is the car:
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2004/08/01/hmn_feature20.html
The early '50's Stude V8's were called "Bearcat", but I'm thinking that started with the '55's. My interest is much more with the '62 and later vehicles.
Nothing miraculous about doubling HP in a stock American V-8engine. It's actually pretty easy.
Last night I watched the rerun where they found a 1950 Champion sitting in a barn. They said it hadn't been driven in 50 years and it looked the part. It was as bad as anyone couple imagine.
They dragged it out, paid 2200.00 for it and another 700.00 to have it delivered.
An "appraiser" looked it over quickly. He said the floors were solid, some rust in the trunk and declared it to be worth 3500.00-3800.00.
The guys wre estatic!
Sounds like a whole lot of work to "maybe" make a few hundred dollars.
I do enjoy the show but I think it's, for the most part all staged. Pawn Stars is even more of a sham.
The 1949 Oldsmobile Rocket V8 of 135 hp. and got as high as 325 hp 1n 1963-1964. The 1963 Sky Rocket got to 325 horsepower as did the 1964 Starfire.
In 1962 and 1963 Oldsmobile also built a turbocharged version of the “215" (a Buick engine). It was only rated at 215 hp and used distilled water and methyl alcohol (dubbed "Turbo-Rocket Fluid") to keep from knocking. Oldsmobile then designed a “second generation of Oldsmobile V8s that was produced from 1964-1990 and was the last V-8 that used a carburetor
The Cadillac went from 160 hp in 1949 to 325 hp in 1963 when it was “redesigned.” Not close to a triple.
The Chevrolet V- went from 162 hp to 375 hp. Sorry , but no triple (162 x 3 = 480)
More importantly, the 265 cu. in. Chevrolet V-8 of 1955 (four years after the Studebaker V-8) had to be redesigned in 1957 just to get to 283 cu.in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_small-block_engine
The 265 ci V-8 was bored out to 3.875 in (98 mm) in 1957, giving it a 283 cu in (4.6 L) displacement. The first 283 motors used the stock 265 blocks. However, the overbore to these blocks resulted in thin cylinder walls. Future 283 blocks were recast to accept the 3.875 bore. Five different versions between 185 hp (138 kW) and 283 hp (211 kW) were available, depending on whether a single carb, twin carbs, or fuel injection was used. Fuel injection yielded the most power.
Therefore, beginning at 185 hp, in 1957, the redesigned V-8 got to its most powerful 370 hp as follows: .
The LT-1 was the ultimate 350 cu in (5.7 L) V8, becoming available in 1970. It used solid lifters, 11:1 compression, a high-performance camshaft, and a 780 CFM Holley four-barrel carburetor on a special aluminum intake with ramhorn exhaust manifolds and a low-restriction exhaust to produce a factory rated 370 hp (276 kW) (the NHRA rated it at 425 hp for classification purposes) and 380 lbft (515 Nm). Redline was 6500 rpm but power fell off significantly past 6200 rpm. The LT-1 was available on the Corvette and Camaro Z28. Power was down in 1971 to 330 hp (246 kW) and 360 lbft (488 Nm) with 9:1 compression, and again in 1972 (the last year of the LT-1, now rated using net, rather than gross, measurement) to 255 hp (190 kW) and 280 lbft (380 Nm).The final version of the Generation I” continued through the end of the production run in 2003;
=====================================================
Try again to name a production engine that was available and ordered from the local car dealer, assembled at the factory, and had three times power of the original version without redesigning the engine block. The Studebaker V-8 hits the only triple.
They were OHV sixes, automatic trans, and Twin Traction.
I absolutely remember when our small-town post office had them. My Dad worked there. Supposedly, the Post Office got rid of their last ones in '70 or '71.
http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?48685-Zip-Candy
Pawn Stars doesn't even try to be realistic...at least I hope not. Just like Storage Wars. It can be fun to watch, but take it with a grain of salt, it's a reality show.
Somewhere not too long ago, I heard that the two guys on "...Pickers" had a space set up at Hershey, not all that many years ago.
On Pickers, they have bought the bullet nose, IIRC a 40 Dodge that was pretty rough, and a 67 Fairlane that needed a lot of work. They aren't the best car chasers.
Still, it was a formidable engine for the time but even the excellent performance couldn't save the Avanti, because the general public didn't like the styling of the car.
Maybe they'll buy a Studebaker sometime...they have bought a few other cars.
Dyno irregularities aside, factory supplied hp ratings are always debatable. So what's left to debate? Seems like it's the same old same old: "Studebaker was the best ever-est, first-est in pony cars, most horsey of horsepower!"
That's the fan clamor which remained after nobody wanted to buy a Studebaker. At least not enough to keep Studebaker in the car biz. And the idea of pitting the Studebaker V8 against the mighty Mouse Chevy V8? Only Studey fans can sleepwalk their way through that "argument."
I'm a Mustang fan, but they really did not come from the factory with a special speedometer calibrated to Mach 1 - unless you special-ordered the R-code "Boss" 351 engine, half-way through the first model year, from a high elevation dealer in Denver, with a Shelby autograph on the glove box and well...there's the Marti report to contend with, too.
Ah well, every car club has it's myths and heroes.
I'd say you've never read any Muscle Car Review magazines, concerning the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags in mid-Michigan. Stude R3's (acceptable since they were factory-offered) routinely spank cars like six-pack 440's and GM muscle. I'd imagine you could google it. They've had Big Three guys pull out of running against R2 and R3 Studes before, at the last minute, simply to save face. That's no joke. Pretty pathetic when it's all supposed to be in good fun.
Lastly, only a genuine idiot would believe the stuff you posted (in exaggeration) about "factory" Mustangs. None of the stuff posted here about R3 Studebakers has been anything I haven't read a dozen times in other places...and well-documented. Opinions about styling or whatever...OK, everybody has opinions. But there hasn't been anything posted here by anybody that could parallel what you've implied when you talk about "factory Shelby-signed glove boxes" et al.
And a Dodge Dart GTS 440 would slap an R3 silly I'm afraid all the way down the track.
0-60 is pretty meaningless in a 1/4 contest, as you probably know, because it drag racing has a lot to do with gearing and the power band of the engine.
So the E.Ts tell you that the car that won is the one that did not fall out of the engine's power band after each shift in the 1/4 mile.
Sadly, the R3s impressive performance publicity didn't seem to filter down to the actual "real" showroom R2 cars. "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" didn't work for Studebaker, for a number of reasons. Does a Ford GT40 really sell Mustangs? Doubtful.
1. The styling was controversial. You either liked the Avanti or you hated it
2. There were serious production delays. The fiberglass bodies didn't have good fit and finish, and so Studebaker ended up having to make the bodies themselves (they were originally farmed out). These snafus were deadly for a cash-strapped company.
3. Superchargers of that vintage were noisy and very expensive to repair. You could buy a normal Corvette 396 and go just as fast or faster for the same $$$.
4. The R3 was as rare as hen's teeth. Only 9 of them appeared, hardly enough to make an impression on the street.
A company's "swan song" is often its best effort, that is true. The last Pierce Arrows, the last Auburns, the last Duesenbergs, were all among their most interesting cars. But this speaks to desperation as much as to a viable business plan I think.
There were ten R3's, not nine.
The car that spanks 'em at the Pure Stock Musclecar Drags is a two-door sedan Lark Challenger, with the aerodynamics of a brick. It's Bermuda Brown and is known as "The Plain Brown Wrapper".
Here's the link:
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2005/02/01/hmn_feature19.html
This car has been showing up at Mid-Michigan Motorplex for ten years straight. And the driver is now 74 years old!
Right. Chevrolet got the 265 engine so right (four years after the Studebaker V-8) that they had to redesign for 1957 just to get to 283 cu.in. because the cylinder walls were too thin. That must be a record - - major engine block modification before reaching 300 cu. in.
The main criticism of the Stude V-8 was that it was too heavy. It was approximately 35 pounds lighter than the Cadillac V-8 and 40 pounds heavier than the Oldsmobile V-8.
Sorry, Studebaker and Paxton products were both owned by Studebaker in 1963 & 1964. Here is the Studebaker entry in the 1963 custom built engine category.
The fuel injection system was used in the experimental Avanti that generated 500 hp and went 197 mph at Bonneville.
As for the Dart GTS 440, is it any less of a car than a Yenko Camaro because of dealer installations?
So really, you want to *include" custom hot-rodding as valid when it fits your case, but exclude it when it challenges it? Now, really gentlemen......
One cannot can't cherrypick and incident or two in drag racing, which has so many variable like the skill of the driver to rewrite history. It's simply not good historical research practice.
note:
"Harbit-one of the best four-speed shifting racers in the country, with eight NHRA titles under his belt"
note:
" In 2004, the car ran against 20 more celebrated muscle cars and won 17 times"
So in other words, it lost 3 times.
Besides, you guys are in love, and this undermines objectivity.
If these cars were so great, they wouldn't be dead. We always need to look at the "whole picture" when judging an historical event.
Doing justice to Studebaker requires that we tell the whole story.
I think the Darts were sent out to Mr Norm, or something like that, for the 440 transplant and other beefings up. In '68, you could get a 426 Hemi in the Dart or Barracuda. I think they made either 50 or 75 of each, but again, I think they were sent out, rather than being made in-house.
The Hemi Darts were extremely stripped down, too. Rear windows made stationary. Front windows designed to slide up and down like the window in a school bus. Bucket seats out of the A100 van, which were a bit lighter than regular Dart buckets, or even the bench seat. You also got this little notice when you bought a Hemi Dart:
To me, 10 cars from any maker do not constitute a meaningful indication of the brand as a whole.
They decided to go to a 283 instead of a 265 during the horsepower race era. I never once heard of an early 283 causing any trouble but to their CREDIT, they beefed up the blocks.
The first Stude V-8's had oiling problems as I recall. No such problems with Chevys.
Anyone ever heard of anyone putting a Studebaker V-8 into a hot rod?
Hey, I really am a Studebaker fan but they were what they were!
However, I have heard from several of those sources that the block was weak. Supposedly, when first engineered, it was TOO weak, but instead of doing a ground-up redesign, they simply added to it, which made it heavier than it should have been.
And, for such a small block, it IS pretty heavy. I've seen sources quoting it at 575 lb, versus something like 525 for the Mopar smallblock and 500 for the later Ford. IIRC, even the old-fashioned poly-head Mopar "wideblock" 318 was only around 550 lb, yet physically, it looked big enough that people often mistake it for a big-block.
Now, that being said, I've had two 305's. An '86 Monte Carlo that my Mom bought new, and had 192,000 miles on it when I got T-boned in it in 1998. And an '85 Silverado that my Granddad bought new, and I still have, with around 135,000 miles on it. Other than an oil leak here and there, and a little puffing at start-up, it's still alive and kicking!
I think 305's and 350's tended to eat crankshafts back in the late 70's. But, I'm sure if you poke and prod around enough, you'll find enough dirt on just about any engine ever built!
Even R2's surprise a lot of people at those 'Drags. The driver of Krem's car has a '63 R2 Lark that's red that he calls the "Stude Tomato". I'll have to look up some Big Three cars he's spanked with that one.
It's just admitting that they did a lot with what they had. I'm not the son of a Studebaker employee or dealer; I just learned to admire them, independently.
Wrong . All R-3 engines were bench tested at 335 hp at 5,280 rpm before they were installed in the cars. They would turn well over 6,000 r.p.m. and the tachometer for the R-3 Avanti went to 8,000 r.p.m. Funny how GM cars get to use outside vendor turbo-charging, fuel injection and carburetors, but all R-3 parts have to be from the existing Studebaker parts bin.
The first Stude V-8's had oiling problems as I recall. No such problems with Chevys
Wrong again. You have the Studebaker V-8 mixed up with the 1955 Packard V-8. The Stude V-8 did not have any oil problem. The early 1951s had soft camshafts, as did some of the GM products built much later. I am putting together a list of all the Oldsmobile defects that happened much later. At lease Studebaker could supercharge its V-8 engines without adding water/ alcohol injection to keep them from knocking.
If these cars were so great, they wouldn't be dead. We always need to look at the "whole picture" when judging an historical event.
I guess the Auburn, Duesenberg, Cord, Hudson, Packard, Oldsmobile and Pontiac were bad cars too. BTW, this is the second time Chrysler is getting bailed out by the US government. :shades:
Yeah, I stand corrected, I remember now it was soft cams that were the problem. 1955 Pontiacs had the same problem. I don't recall any other GM cars that flattened cams off hand unless people skimped on oil changes.
As far as oiling problems, the Ford Y-blocks were so bad on this that outside oilers were often installed.
The gummy oils especially the ones that came in the yellow cans were just great at gunking up engines and restricting oil flow in those days.
:surprise: Well, if you're objecting to the term "factory rated" and prefer "bench tested," then I still don't see what the fuss is about. The upper register of the Avanti tachometer could have been 8,000 or 10,000 RPM but so what? What would be the difference had they put a 200-mph speedo in a Studebaker Lark?
Dyno figures can be manipulated by factory engineers, specialty engine builders, or even marketing execs. My friend, Mopar race cars put everything else on the trailer in 1964 - no matter what the Studebaker brochure promised.
RE:GM outsourcing for special engine parts/tuning
Again, what's the point? Everyone did that. During that same era, Shelby hooked up with AC Cars to build a Ford V8 powered sports car which would later become the Cobra. By 1965 the Shelby American Daytona Coupe won the World Manufacturer's Championship GT class. Who cares if that magnificent performance was featured in a "brochure" or available at your local Ford dealer? It ran like stink and beat Ferrari! :shades:
edited to add: so the "emotorcons" don't work anymore? :confuse: :sick: :lemon: hmm...
I'm laughing when I type this, but this is the first time I've seen "17 out of 20" turned into something negative.
The Stude driver was 74 years old at the time.
Here's a video of an R2 Lark--same driver as the R3. While the Pontiac is certainly heavier, it has 132 cubes and most likely at least 50 more horses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN5WjajQZ2o
I'ld like to know what kind of rear gearing those cars had. Beating an SS 396 took some doing!
" So, how did you do at the drags?"
" Ah...I got beat"
" REALLY! What beat you?"
" Ah....ah....a Studebaker"
" WHAT???"
Probably a quarter mile time of 22 seconds and 58 MPH.
I did see something incredible one time at the now long gone Lions Drag Strip in So. Calif.
I guy had a 1940 Buick Century coupe that was totally stock and it managed to whip some cars nobody would have thought possible.
In November 1986, Special Interest Autos (SIA) did a great story on the R-3 Avanti. It isreprinted in the Hemmings Motor News Book of Studebakers. It said that every R-3 engine was actually run on a dynamometer to 335 hp at 5,350 rpm and that it had a three hour break-in period. If the engine had the optional dual valve springs, the engine could rev to 8,000 r.p,m. If it had the high output supercharger pulley it would produce 400 hp at 6,000 r.p.m.
That is why I said the Stude V-8 was the only engine to triple its horsepower from its original version. (120 h.p. x 3 = 360). The factory rating of 335 hp was not the top horsepower the R-3 ordered from the factory could achieve. Every R-3 engine was actually tested to that figure.
Studebaker did not want to release horsepower figures because it could not match engines like the “big-block Chevy 409" which was introduced in 1958, seven years after the Studebaker V-8.
The same SIA article also says that “a stock R-2 Avanti topped 158 mph at Bonneville” and “The previous top speed for an American production car was the 153 mph attained by Mickey Thompson in a Pontiac Catalina."
Therefore, the second fastest Studebaker Avanti (R-2) was also the second fastest production car in America (behind the 170 m.p.h. R-3). I would like to know how long it held that position.
There may have been a few 1961's with 409's installed.
But to be fair, it took the know-how of one Arthur Fonziarelli to hop that car up for Richie to win a drag race. And, of course, he had to put it back to stock before Mr C. found out!
I've told this story before, but back in college, the general manager at the Denny's I worked at told me he had a '57 DeSoto Fireflite 4-door hardtop, pink and white, that was his first car. He paid $500 for it. This was in 1965, and it was considered a loser car since it was big, had tailfins, and was an orphan. But it laid waste to many a cooler car, whose owner had the extra embarrassment of being whipped by a "loser".
He ended up getting rid of that DeSoto and bought a '57 Chevy Bel Air convertible with a 283. Also pink (dunno why this guy had a thing for pink) and also for $500. It was regarded as a much, much cooler car, obviously, but was a dog compared to that DeSoto. If you wanted to take on that DeSoto with a Chevy Bel Air, about the only way you'd do it was with fuel injection, or maybe dual quads and a stick. Both cars being stock, of course.
In high school, this dorky friend of mine was shopping for a used car with a very limited budget. He couldn't afford the Chevy he wanted and ended up finding a 1957 Dodge that an "old lady" (probably 50 or so) was selling for 400.00. He wanted me to take a look at it.
It was a low mileage gold and white 4 door Custom Royal that was like new inside and out. All of a sudden I spotted the D500 badge on teh trunk lid and told him...." BUY IT" and he did!
You have NO IDEA what that big gaudy Dodge could do to a 327 Chevy!
He even beat a mighty GTO one night but it took him three blocks to do it.
I learned about Center Plane brakes on that Dodge and how crappy they were. Oh, what a sleeper that Dodge was withit's mighty Hemi V-8 and..OH, how it used gas!
I was speaking of the date the big-block Chevy engine arrived. By the time the Studebaker R-series engines arrived in 1962, it was a 409 and beyond what Studebaker V-8 could match in horsepower. My mistake for not being specific enough about the origin of the engine.
I was always curious as to whyu in their final year they felt compelled to use Chevy V-8's when they still had their own engines.