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Comments
If they genuinely "lost" it then sure that's just good business and common sense.
I recently had the oil changed on my company owned Pacifica and the mechanic said the drain plug was rounded off. He installed a fresh one at no charge.
So they "lost" the drain plug as it was being removed. That's a common failure on those, the plugs threads are large compared to the head of the bolt and they are made from a very soft grade of metal so they distort easily especially if over-torqued.
>You need to try harder to make him go put of business over that bolt. JMHO.
That's not reasonable. In fact ridiculous: did the customer lose the bolt? Shop should neither have mentioned the bolt nor charged for it.
Sarcasm isn't supposed to be reasonable to make it's point. :P
Gotta make the business responsible for nothing other than "We just love makin' money."
They should have gone out of business over that bolt so that he wouldn't have had to subject himself to needing to use their towing. Oh wait, maybe then there wouldn't have been someone to tow him at all.
It had dropped into the #3 spark plug hole.
You certainly didn't get very far trying to defend charging the customer for a shop screw-up, Doc.
What is the point?
To defend the indefensible? To make reasonable the unreasonable?
To assume that every story about a poor customer experience at a repair shop is a fabrication?
Just use the scroll button.... :P
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Amazing logic that the customer should pay for a bolt lost by the shop. Makes used car salesmen look ethical. Just a little sarcasm here. :shades:
>Cardoc: Sarcasm isn't supposed to be reasonable to make it's point.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
To assume that every story about a poor customer experience at a repair shop is a fabrication?
No of course not every story is a fabrication, and the real ones are a part of learning how to run a great business, provided the people in the business actually get to learn from them. But the fabrications often get the loudest press and there is not only nothing to learn from them, they actually work to make it less likely that the next customer will get the service that they need.
The idea that the shop should be forced out of business because they charged for a bolt is what you are all saying its just that you seem to not hear yourselves saying it. Yet even though they aren't perfect explorer not only still needed them he used them essentially abandoning his principles.
Look at that picture for what it really says instead of only resorting to attacking the messenger.
To defend the indefensible? To make reasonable the unreasonable?
To assume that every story about a poor customer experience at a repair shop is a fabrication?
That pretty much covers it...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
It really doesn't matter what I write here about that incident. You think you over paid by a dollar or two and the fact that the car was fixed suddenly becomes totally irrelevant.
Relevance can be subjective, doc. There's right. And then there's wrong.
So should he have lied about why it needed a bolt to complete the repair?
Ok...I really can't believe you typed that, doc! Now that is identical territory as the pothole causing the oil fill cap to become unscrewed.
Whoever has control of doc's PC, turn if OFF and cease and desist NOW before you cost him the balance of his credibility on this forum.
If he had simply eaten that expense wouldn't that have only forced you to find another reason to never go back?
Ok...now you went and really did it...doc (should) be furious with you if he ever catches you you hacker you..
You need to try harder to make him go put of business over that bolt. JMHO.
So for icing on the cake you are really burying doc...you do know that right??
There is nothing humble about post 3583.
Agreed, wouldn't have it any other way. Heck we even pay when things aren't our fault, but then again that's just us.
The customer doesn't. Lot of moxie for the shop to put that charge on the bill.
How much does it take to use their services after that happened? Explorer dosen't have to belong to AAA does he? Is someone forcing him to be a member there and have that business tow his car?
I must have missed the part where Explorer said he wanted them to go out of business and he was actively pursuing same:
"Where I live, there are not a lot of independent repair businesses.
Here is one of my previous experiences.
Brought my truck in to have a leak fixed.
It was fixed, but on the bill was a charge for a bolt.
When I questioned it, the owner said 'We lost it'.
You are going to charge me for a bolt you lost? That doesn't seem right.
That's the way it is.
I have never gone back there, although I have had to reluctantly use some some of their other business services(AAA towing)."
>Explorer dosen't have to belong to AAA does he? Is someone forcing him to be a member there and have that business tow his car?
This seems to have gone paranoiac, but I'll play the game.
Since explorer never said he wanted them to go out of business but rather indicated he wouldn't use their services for auto repair, I see their towing business as an ancillary service and a way to use them like the business misused him over charging for the bolt. I would have done the same.
I guess he could always tell AAA not to dispatch from that store but rather use any other tow truck available.
Actually that might make AAA take a look at why the people are asking not to have a certain company tow truck show up. Could be damning.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Now we have the idea that Explorer shouldn't belong to AAA if he doesn't approve of the shop owner screwing him over a bolt that they lost?
Absolutely ridiculous logic. Explorer and everyone else have every right to belong to any auto-related service business like AAA that they choose. I don't recall if Explorer indicated he called the shop directly for towing or if he used AAA. I think it's more of a putdown to use their towing but not recommend their repair work.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Almost as bad as my friend who got drilled for double the labor cost on his '02 back in the '80s. He had a shop R&R the clutch and the shop asked if he wanted them to replace the rear main seal(it was seeping a bit) while they had the transmission out. The shop billed him the full rate for each job. That is, they billed him the for the clutch job and billed him almost the same amount of time for the RMS, so he paid twice for the labor to R&R the transmission. He said he could understand paying for an extra hour or so for the additional RMS work, but not an additional 3-4 hours. He brought the issue up with the shop owner who showed him the rate book and said, "We go by the book."
And no, the RMS is NOT a 3-4 hour job; the seal is one piece and held in place by metal retainer and 6 bolts.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
He had a shop R&R the clutch and the shop asked if he wanted them to replace the rear main seal(it was seeping a bit) while they had the transmission out. The shop billed him the full rate for each job. That is, they billed him the for the clutch job and billed him almost the same amount of time for the RMS, so he paid twice for the labor to R&R the transmission
Now we have another example of what I feel is the wrong way to run a shop. As long as its an easy one like you just described I'd never charge the full amount to do the rear main seal while I already had the transmission out. A couple tenths, yea probably, but in some cases maybe not even that. Heck if the seal is seeping/leaking I'd probably just do it as part of the job to help protect the new clutch that I was putting in the car. If its a difficult seal then it gets estimated before the job gets touched. That way the customer and I both know what we are getting into. If they decline the seal when it's clearly leaking then I'm likely to decline the job as well. I'd do nothing before I do something that I would not be able to stand behind.
We follow Mitchell times and if the time is wrong we lose plain and simple. We really don't have anything else to go on because no matter what we would try to do it ends up the brew-ha-ha just like I made this forum do over the last few hours.
The vast majority of labor times are not studied and haven't been for as long as I can remember. The labor "GUIDE" is supposed to be for estimating purposes only and was never intended to be used to quote actual repair prices nor the labor times for which techs are supposed to be paid for doing a given job. But in practice that is exactly how it is used and you only see someone complain about it when it doesn't work in their favor.
BTW. The inside front cover of "The Book" actually has the very disclaimer that its not intended to be used for setting prices.
I can't imagine that the rate books really substitute for a few years of experience.
Yea, well let some aftermarket warranty company be involved in a customers vehicle repair and watch what happens. Go look at RepairPal on the net and see what they try to do and see if that really meshes with your perception.
The flatbed driving took good care of my car so I gave him a nice cash tip.
BTW, next time I opened the hood I found a bolt laying there in plain sight.
I think I still have it around somewhere.
I think I still have it around somewhere.
You might as well go ahead and 'fess up- we all know that YOU had to be the one who left the bolt there; no way the shop could/would have done it...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I think I still have it around somewhere.
LOL Murphy's law strikes again. It's easy to find the missing item once its been replaced and you no longer need it.....
Overall, I'm glad I had a shop take a look at the car. It is probably better and cheaper in the long run than me throwing parts at it.
A new MAF sensor was not my guess.
In anticipation of get the car back tomorrow, I bought some new oil and a filter today. What can go wrong with that?
Most popular or most contentious?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
The latter of course. What the other responders don't understand is how often some consumers act/react to situations even when a shop has done everything exactly the way they should.
BTW, the previous set of posts isn't about defending or condoning any practices. It was about whether you liked what they did or not where would you be without them? In the marketplace we compete against those shops and would easily meet everyones expectations about the missing bolt because I'd just replace it and forget about it. But at the same time, we don't tow for AAA and cannot even justify going to the shop and starting up the tow truck for what they pay for a call. Oh one more side-note, tipping the driver could cost him his job if someone found out about it.
So lets role play. You are the tech and this is the description of a real vehicle repair event.
2003 Mazda Tribute. Customer reports the transmission is stuck in second gear and the check engine light is on. The light has been on since November of 2012. Sometimes the check engine light flashes for the first minute or two after the car is first started in the morning. The vehicle has already been looked at by a transmission shop and they feel the issue with the transmission not shifting is electrical in nature (wiring) and related to the turbine shaft input speed sensor circuit.
You start your diagnostics by connecting a scan tool and you pull codes from every module and then proceed to road testing the vehicle. It wasn't reported but you notice the ABS lamp on and feel ABS activation just before the vehicle comes to a stop.
The codes you retrieve are : C1233 B1676 B1877 B1881
U1262 U1073 B1352 PO715 PO717
Using the scan tool and watching the misfire data cylinder #4 isn't contributing, the turbine shaft speed remains at 0rpm, all four wheel speed signals are reporting but the left front is erratic.
What do you do at this point? Note make one mistake and it will be no different to the consumer as if the bolt was charged for or if the labor was double dipped on RB's clutch job. Oh and if it helps the owner is a widow on fixed income and can't afford another car.
Didn't hear anything from the shop today, so it looks like will I'll get it back next week.
Well, there is an obvious difference in the comparison...
The missing bolt was there when the car arrived at the shop, and the shop never denied it was there at the beginning. And, the double billing in RB's example was for a job that clearly didn't require a component removal, repair, re installation, removal, repair and re installation. It was 2 component removals, dual repairs and component re installation.
From the consumer standpoint, perception can be difficult to predict. As you well know, there is always someone who wouldn't be happy even if you paid them to repair their vehicle. A mis-diagnosis is always a risk we undertake, whether it be car repair, surgery or appliance repair. No one bats 1000 forever...
That's for sure..I'm finding it increasingly more challenging to take any of doc's posts seriously...especially these last few days since the cahoots and drumming up forum activity remarks which he didn't deny. What should seem to be obviously different scenarios to any normal person, doc seems to be in another world..claiming we just don't get it even though he drills us with the same song and dance in every other post. He says he has not defended the charge for the missing bolt, yet after reviewing all his posts again about that very thing, what he typed can only be interpreted as defending that shop's decision to charge for something they lost, because it is in our best interest to hire people who are negligent to varying degrees or another. So the poor slob lost a bolt...not really a negligent thing to happen, but what makes it negligent, is the decision to charge for it. Was he honest?..well I suppose so, in a dim-witted kinda way... But how doc cannot seem to see that we, the customer.. who, like-it-or-not, are responsible for his being able to put bread and butter on his table, and even with all of our limited collective abilities could never possibly grasp that it would be in our best interest to be appreciative of a shop that looses parts, then charges for them, rather than find and patronize a shop that either does not lose parts or at least does not charge for them if they do, is beyond me.
Yes, I have read more than once that he says his shop does not condone that action, but still..his usual way of explaining it (and all other similar cases away, by putting basically all scenarios back on the customer, does seem to exploit a pretty big skip in the ol' 75..
Just once I would like doc to admit he has made a mistake and that the customer was absolutely innocent of any and all perceived wrong-doing with regards to the result that ensued. No caveats that the industry and trade has these unavoidable mistakes or improprieties built in by default of the trade. Just a plain and simple, unmitigated take-full-responsibility admission guilt or fault.
Now for my broken record comment...I'm still waiting for him to make a simple, basic, and honest retraction of his absurd explanation to the infamous and mysterious oil fill cap not being screwed on, being due to hitting a pothill.
Until you retract that, doc, how can we take you seriously? When you consider some of your more ridiculous posts mixed in with other truly excellent ones...how are we, the subservient, (apparently) dispensable, ignorant public, ever to know which ones to take for real?
No I won't deny stirring the pot, and its quite true everyone hasn't really figured out what this has all been about. The title, "a mechanics life". Do you really want to know what it's like doing this as a career? There is no way anyone could totally understand just what its been like working in this trade without actually doing it. But the next best thing is what I have been doing in this forum by dragging the responders into slices of it by proxy.
RB had no problem being himself and bullying the newcomers to the trade over any mistake he has ever encountered. There are lots of RB's out there full of themselves in their own perceived competences who really don't have a clue how to do anything beyond the most basic things that techs have to learn to do. When some of the posters figured out I was using my experience and playing the bully at times, they got to feel the pressure that the RB's bring to the job. Now you can go back and look and you will see that nothing positive comes from any of the bullying that RB has been proud of, and I mirrored that here in this forum.
Now for my broken record comment...I'm still waiting for him to make a simple, basic, and honest retraction of his absurd explanation to the infamous and mysterious oil fill cap not being screwed on, being due to hitting a pothill.
It doesn't need a retraction, if RB was a tech and a consumer accused him of making the mistake of leaving the cap loose the consumer is right and he is incompetent, end of story no matter how absurd the accusation is. What you saw happen is everyone run to defend him here because he was the consumer and like I wanted to prove no one defends a tech who is accused of making a mistake. He really could have lied about the entire event and that didn't matter he automatically got full support. I manipulated the posts to try and make him feel the pressure about being accused of lying in that moment he got to feel what its like to have been the tech.
RB's posts go hand in hand with the recepie for most of the stories or sales pitches that you ever see. Do you want to sell a toy scan tool, just make sure that you talk about a tech failing or call them a rip-off and that's supposed to give you mounds of credibility. Meanwhile when a tech does make a mistake or some kind of an error whether it was honest or not it becomes grounds for some kind of permanent banning and persecution for the whole shop. I think RB portraited. that better than I could ever have done on my own. The little episode of the lost bolt served well to make that point too since explorer has never gone back there over it.
At the same time he gave me a
two-fermake that three-fer when he still had to use their towing service, reluctant as he may have been where would he have been without them? No-one commented about the fact that the driver could lose his job over getting a tip and really I wasn't surprised by that.So the poor slob lost a bolt...
Think about what you just wrote there. Again its not about the bolt and who ultimately paid for it, its about your perception of the tech that I have been dragging to the surface. Each of these little forays have been to try and tease out the prejudices that if we simply changed the identity of the person being talked about from the career of a technician to someone's gender or race as the hope is that you would start to see what you are really saying.
I probably should go on and explain every one of the posts but for now you're too close to them and can only see what you think they were supposed to mean. For now take everything with this short synopsis. The job today is still a terrible career choice and these arguments that you see in the posts are all about demonstrating exactly why. The way you saw people react to the things I wrote here reflects how techs really get treated on the job by not only consumers but by their employers.
The work top techs do today is far more technical than all of the experts have ever explained and that Mazda Tribute example I wrote a few posts above will outclass just about anybody who isn't sufficiently trained and experienced as a mechanic/technician. BTW, don't hold your breath waiting for the brain trust here at Edmunds to try their hand at explaining how to analyze that vehicle, they can only lose by trying because they will expose the fact that they don't actually know how to proceed. By not trying they get to pretend that they could handle the job and no-body ever questions it. JMHO.
When you consider some of your more ridiculous posts mixed in with other truly excellent ones...how are we, the subservient, (apparently) dispensable, ignorant public, ever to know which ones to take for real?
You'll probably remember me saying that as a tech we are only as good as our latest failure, I suspect that's why you want "Just once I would like doc to admit he has made a mistake and that the customer was absolutely innocent of any and all perceived wrong-doing with regards to the result that ensued". There isn't a single tip or trick that I can share that isn't the direct result of having to learn from a mistake that I have made at one time or another. So if you want to know a mistake of mine, just look for a tip that explains how to figure something out and you'll see into an event that someone like RB would want to grandstand my incompetences over. But its the mistakes that have made me better as a technician because I made sure to learn from them and refused to let the bullies beat me down over them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'd change the oil and filter as well.
Installed a trailer hitch on a 76 Country Squire with a dull drill bit.
I felt like I accomplished something when it was done. Doing that sort of stuff 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year? Probably just a bit different.
Same goes for washing cars, grilling burgers and cutting grass.
Which brings me to my main point; I think the overarching problem with the service industry as a whole is that a large percentage of techs don't know what they don't know- and/or they simply don't care.
Do I expect perfection from the shops I use? Of course not; everyone makes mistakes, but what I do expect is a professional level of knowledge and competence. As a result, I don't have to deal with "techs" who don't know BMWs use a drain plug gasket, break battery vent fittings when they mindlessly yank a battery out of a car, or take off an oil filler cap and leave it under the hood when the work order only involves replacing the RF tire...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
FWIW, if you're going to quote me, I would appreciate a little more of the quote so that proper context can be referred to.
And in my mind he became a poor slob because he charged for a bolt he damn well lost! NOT for ANY OTHER REASON! We have a bit of history here now, doc. When have you known me to defame a mechanic that wasn't damn well deserved? Think carefully before you reply..
Comments that you yourself filled in the blanks with a defensive recollection, (but not necessarily accurately) need not be used as examples. This example being a perfect one. Ok?
And if you don't read between the lines, the very fact that you admit it was wrong of him (because you do not run your shop that way) supports the point I made/am making. Ok..I hope..peace tho..
Even though I'm gonna let your rebuttal over the potential that RB was not being honest, go..
Seriously, doc...we are all men here...I don't believe for a second that the story or the course of events in order were a fabrication, and I honestly believe you surely cannot think that either..regardless of what you may think of him.
I think that's a very good point... Concise and self explanatory.
I suspect that if and when a day comes in which Doc is forced to rely on the service industry in general (including vehicle repair) for car/home maintenance, his attitude will shift more in-line with most of the other posters here.
My own personal opinion is that when one has the ability to be self-reliant and independent, they see the world in a different way than when they find themselves forced to be at the mercy of someone else's abilities (or maybe I should say lack of abilities...).
Let me also state that I suspect Doc is much easier to relate to in person, as compared to what we see here on the Interweb.
My own personal opinion is that when one has the ability to be self-reliant and independent, they see the world in a different way than when they find themselves forced to be at the mercy of someone else's abilities (or maybe I should say lack of abilities...).
Let me also state that I suspect Doc is much easier to relate to in person, as compared to what we see here on the Interweb.
Yes, I would agree with this. Email can very hard to interpret accurately (considering so many variable personalities) since there are so many other aspects of communication that is lost when you can't see or even hear the tone of voice.
Most people would appreciate something like that. Imagine how you'd feel if the comments were edited to simply allow someone to tell whatever story that they want to and then they shoved a camera in your face and started firing off questions that you weren't prepared to answer. That's what it feels like to encounter someone who is trying to do a sting.
Seriously, doc...we are all men here...I don't believe for a second that the story or the course of events in order were a fabrication, and I honestly believe you surely cannot think that either. Regardless of what you may think of him.
I think he said enough with his last response that I don't have to say anything else. New people have to come into the trade all of the time and they are going to make mistakes. Berating them, bullying them will only serve to chase them away and then everyone will have to go through the same learning events all over again with yet another person. It's the hypocritical idea that he (and most everyone else) are above such mistakes that is what has been getting taken to task, over and over again. Give him enough chances, he will mess up a drain plug gasket, leave a filler cap off, misdiagnose an oil leak etc. The point is nobody is immune from making these mistakes, the question comes down to how the situation is handled when it does occur and from there how well they are/were trained for the most part there simply isn't enough investment in training taking place and its because of too much price competition that there isn't enough money in the shops to support it. That's all part of a viscous cycle that needs its own thread to talk about it.
I posted that Tribute, where are all the experts to explain to everyone how to approach that car? Every time I see someone write something to the effect that because she's a woman or what ever she is ripe to be ripped off it makes me want to clean my shop floors with them. I gave Thelma a solid estimate after a whopping thirty-five minutes that addressed the ABS problem, the transmission issue, and the misfire. When it comes to taking care of her especially with her financial situation its all about efficiency and precision and then prioritizing her vehicles needs. She couldn't fix everything right then so it had to be done a little at a time. Armed with a detailed list of what her car needed we laid out a plan for her and now after several months she has a car that is paid off and working correctly so that she can rely on it. There is a long list of people who would rather not see that happen because they make a living selling her another car, now who really has her best interest at heart?
Mistakes?
Not knowing that a BMW uses a drain plug gasket? And what about failing to reset the SI?
Screwing around under the hood when the hood release should never have even been touched?
Automatically assuming that the source of an oil leak is the gasket that rarely fails(and costs @$1,000 to replace) when three shops correctly diagnose the leak source as a gasket which is known to fail on a much more frequent basis? Who cares? The customer can afford it, and it's all in the name of on the job training, right?
It's one thing to excuse an inadvertent error; but I cannot understand why anyone would bend over backwards to defend incompetence, apathy, and/or laziness.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Give him enough chances, he will mess up a drain plug gasket, leave a filler cap off, misdiagnose an oil leak etc. The point is nobody is immune from making these mistakes,
So you think you're perfect? News flash, you're not capable of stepping into a shop and have to produce at speed without making effectively the very same errors that you find so egregious.
Not knowing that a BMW uses a drain plug gasket?
Oh you'll know they use a gasket but you will given enough chances lose track of one and install the plug without it.
And what about failing to reset the SI?
Given enough different cars you'll fail to reset more than you'll care to count. You like to concentrate on just BMW, they are what about 2% of the market? On top of that there was a natural learning curve that had to take place when these systems started filtering in across the board. You only berate someone when they make a mistake and the thing is that doesn't solve the problem nor work to prevent it from occurring again. Take a good person and treat them like that over how many mistakes they will make and they will do just what you have seen some do right here in this forum, quit. It's only the ones with strong ego's that keep up the fight.
It's one thing to excuse an inadvertent error; but I cannot understand why anyone would bend over backwards to defend incompetence, apathy, and/or laziness.
I'm not one to allow anyone to continue to bully someone else and what's the best way to deal with a bully? Stand up to him (you). I don't defend people who don't belong in the trade, they are best served by moving on. But the kids that the trade needs are going to still have to make the same mistakes, and we don't have a choice but to support them as they learn. Good people feel bad enough already when something goes south on them, they don't need some parsimonious prick piling on.
Screwing around under the hood when the hood release should never have even been touched?
Some of your lawyer buddies disagree, if a car comes into the shop and leaves low on oil because the tech doesn't catch it and advise to correct it, that is enough to blame them for the engine failing. So we have the tech wrong if they do lift the hood, and they are wrong if they don't. That sounds like the person who fussed about the mirrors and seat being moved and the shop then tried to respond with a rule that the mirrors and seats had to be left in what ever position they were at when the car came in. Yea great idea, make it unsafe for the tech to maneuver the vehicle during the road test and inside the shop.
Automatically assuming that the source of an oil leak is the gasket that rarely fails(and costs $1,000 to replace) when three shops correctly diagnose the leak source as a gasket which is known to fail on a much more frequent basis?
Really how widely known is it? I had an Audi in the shop a month ago that I would have loved for you to be the person who had to identify the source of the oil leak (there were six of them) and the coolant leak, (both of them).
Who cares? The customer can afford it, and it's all in the name of on the job training, right?
Hey the bully is back and that's all you understand how to do. When that's what you take away from these conversations you prove that you don't understand the trade, the work we do, and what the people in the trade need to better serve the customers. You can only grandstand the failures but can't contribute anything to try and prevent them in the future and that makes you nothing but a bully. Yet you want to profess your competence but I don't see it even though you have a great chance to prove yourself with the Mazda Tribute example.
There are tens of thousands of things that a tech today could have to do for the first time in his/her career. It's how they deal with things that are the first and maybe the only time that they see a given problem that is the measure of their ability, not how fast they can complete what they have been exposed to a dozen times or more. But no-one is looking at it from that angle, they all just think the job is simple. Well Thelma's Tribute was simple but you don't even know where to start do you? But if I had gotten any part of it wrong like you would have if you had actually tried you (and everyone of the other self proclaimed experts) would have been all over me about wouldn't you?
You're the one that's sounding more and more like a bully.
We all know thoughts and intentions come across differently in a blog or email thread than they would in a face to face discussion. But Doc - you're trying to defend the indefensible.
Many of the criticisms, or what you like to call the "berating of the techs", was not because they made a mistake, but because they denied making the mistake and blaming the resulting problem on the consumer.
But the kids that the trade needs are going to still have to make the same mistakes, and we don't have a choice but to support them as they learn.
I think we all agree that making mistakes is part of the learning process. But it is not reasonable to expect the consumer to pay for that learning curve, and pay for those mistakes. That is something the industry is going to have to work out.
The lost bolt - shop should have paid for it. They made a mistake, no big deal. Man up to it and buy a new bolt.
The loose oil filler cap - Same thing, admit that they shouldn't have opened up the hood. But since they did (in order to check the oil as that was there SOP), and didn't replace the oil filler cap properly, just own up to it.
The missing gasket on the BWM oil drain plug - own up to it. Admit that there should have been a gasket used; that the tech was tired and just missed this item. How 'bout "Bring the car back in and we'll take of it, on the shop's dime."
Now even that won't prevent all of the mistakes but that will catch a lot of them. The problem here comes back to cost, what would it cost to make this happen? There would also be some inconvenience that the consumers would have to tolerate as this change occurred and for a while we would suddenly be short on techs and facilities. That's going to happen anyway as the cars keep needing less service and we don't have the business plans across the board to deal with that as well as the growing complexity of the work.
I think we all agree that making mistakes is part of the learning process. But it is not reasonable to expect the consumer to pay for that learning curve, and pay for those mistakes.
Sorry one way or another the cost still has to be borne by the consumer.
That is something the industry is going to have to work out.
An industry has standards, we don't. There is nothing to stop any one of you from going to Sears, buying a box full of tools and claiming you are a mechanic tomorrow.
That's the real "bone sticking in your craw", isn't it?
You're a true professional operating in an environment under which you have next to zero control, and its bugging the crap out of you.
And, you know what?
It would do the same to me. In fact, it has...
The real difference here is that you somehow feel you're a member of an elite club, but that's far from the truth. Few of any of us are/were employed in a field in which "hacks" don't abound. Even the medical industry, from doctors on down to the bottom has them, and that's as powerful a group of folks in the USA as you will find (excepting politicians).
I can promise you RB would tell you he sees unqualified people in the legal field daily, and if he had his way he'd most likely run them out. The requirement to have a sheepskin or pass an exam does little to eliminate the dregs at the bottom of any field. It's a false illusion for anyone to believe otherwise, else the malpractice insurance industry for doctors would have collapsed years ago.
Here's my suggestion, for whatever its worth. Quit hoping to make the auto repair industry an Eden and do the best you can with what you've got control over. That doesn't mean I suggest you not care, but it does mean you should focus on the things you can effect change on, and forget about the rest.
One last thing... Berating other posters with different ideas (and a "holier than thou" attitude) seldom gets anyone the desired results. I can testify to that first-hand. All it does is to turn the other side "off", and that isn't going to change anything, is it???
OK, ill get off the soapbox now and let someone else have a turn.
I never said that I was perfect, and I probably would make mistakes if I had to service cars that I didn't enjoy driving and/or owning.
You like to concentrate on just BMW, they are what about 2% of the market? On top of that there was a natural learning curve that had to take place when these systems started filtering in across the board. You only berate someone when they make a mistake and the thing is that doesn't solve the problem nor work to prevent it from occurring again.
I love your "berating" accusation, I never even talk to the techs who screw up; I just fix their mistakes- or point the hapless vehicle owners to a competent dealer or indie shop that that I know does quality work. As for a "natural learning curve?" I think the guy doing the work not only didn't know how to reset the SI- he just flat didn't care.
Really how widely known is it? I had an Audi in the shop a month ago that I would have loved for you to be the person who had to identify the source of the oil leak (there were six of them) and the coolant leak, (both of them).
You admit that BMWs comprise @2% of the market yet you make it sound as if the folks who work on Bimmers day in and day out shouldn't possess a bit more specialized knowledge about the marque. One last time, a BMW dealer that blames the oil pan gasket for a leak in that area of the engine when that is not the case is dropping the ball. Period. And I'll leave all the Audi repairs and maintenance to you(shudder).
Good people feel bad enough already when something goes south on them, they don't need some parsimonious prick piling on.
To quote the only true expert in this topic:
I only see things like those two responses and when they were fairly challenged doesn't like it one bit and resorts to name calling.
Some of your lawyer buddies disagree, if a car comes into the shop and leaves low on oil because the tech doesn't catch it and advise to correct it, that is enough to blame them for the engine failing. So we have the tech wrong if they do lift the hood, and they are wrong if they don't.
Two points:
1. Has anyone else on this board had a tire shop pop the hood-without asking-and check fluids when the only work being performed was a tire repair? I blame lawyers for some problems as well, but this excuse doesn't hold water.
2. The dimwit must not have even checked the oil; if he had he would have found the sump filled to the top mark on the dipstick- and thus there would have been no reason whatsoever to remove the oil filler cap.
Hey the bully is back and that's all you understand how to do. When that's what you take away from these conversations you prove that you don't understand the trade, the work we do, and what the people in the trade need to better serve the customers.
This from the guy who said: "I just put people before money or a POS car."
Anyone who reads this topic knows that I regularly praise the shops that I use. As a matter of fact, just last week I received an online survey from Mazda inquiring about my last service visit. I gave my dealer top marks across the board-as was deserved-and I mentioned my Service Advisor by name and specifically complemented him on his work, And I went on to say that the fact that I drive over 100 miles to use that dealer should speak volumes.
Well Thelma's Tribute was simple but you don't even know where to start do you? But if I had gotten any part of it wrong like you would have if you had actually tried you (and everyone of the other self proclaimed experts) would have been all over me about wouldn't you?
To be perfectly honest with you, I had absolutely no interest in diagnosing Thelma's Tribute. I've never said that I can fix every automotive problem you have come across, but I do know shops that can. Kudos to you for fixing that Tribute correctly, but when it comes to automotive repair and maintenance I only concentrate on vehicles that I have owned or might own. I'll stick with my @3-4% of the market(BMWs, Jeep TJs, MS3s) and let you have everything else. Deal?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Sure they will. But those training/learning costs should probably be buried in the costing rate, and not as a line item on a customer's bill that says, in effect, "Our tech, because of his inexperience, screwed up and lost the bolt. So we'll add that $5 inexperience charge to your bill."
Just like the increased costs that are going to come about from lawsuits and changes in training in the airline industry as a result of the jetliner that crashed in San Francisco.
This from an AP article:
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — The pilot at the controls of an Asiana plane that crash landed was guiding a Boeing 777 into the San Francisco airport for the first time, and tried but failed to abort the landing after coming in too slow to set down safely, aviation and airline officials said Sunday.
It was unclear if the pilot's inexperience with the aircraft and airport played a role in Saturday's crash.
See Post 3138 and Post 3207, for example. And like doctors with their medical associations, attorneys in every state can be disbarred by their state's Bar Association for unprofessional conduct. It happens in Kentucky on almost a monthly basis. And you know what? There are still more than a few lazy, incompetent, and apathetic hacks out there.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I got new tires on the minivan a couple of months ago. When I picked it up, the guy told me that they checked the oil and topped up the windshield washer fluid. And they checked the front disc brakes and pads (they didn't pull the rear drums to check them).
And yeah, I was surprised.
The last time a shop "went the extra mile" like that, after doing something under the hood, they took the van to the automatic car wash next door and ripped the mirror off. I had to JB Weld it back on - for the 3rd or 4th time.