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The Current State of the US Auto Market
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I'm just being descriptive and analytical of how things have transpired here in the past. Some of us realize that it's not the recall necessarily, it's how the problem is handled, or not handled, by the company that's important. The dealer also plays a great part in that handling and in how the owner perceives the brand. That's been the case with my Buicks through the years.
Others have realized that the hard-to-pin-down reliability is historical in nature and has absolutely nothing to do with the ATS, Accord Sport, Civic, Nissan Altima, VW Jetta/Passat and the Audi cousin that you buy today.
Most companies have improved the vehicle when they were able to make changeovers on them in the past decade.
As for bragging rights to being biggest, bestest, mostest,...I'm glad to hear that toyota is selling more cars worldwide than ever before or some similar statement on early news radio this morning. With the bigger size, comes bigger problems from the bean counter cost cutting and the typical things that go wrong are worse the bigger the company is.
I'm seeing more and more posts in other discussions about various brands that used to have an infallible but potentially undeserved, rating where people are swearing they'll never buy another of that brand. In 2003 I was mocked by a few when I said I was not impressed with my test drives of some brands while shopping for my new 03. Some of the problem then came to be truths.
Those car companies have regressed to the mean. They have joined the club in the public opinion value rating, which actually means little.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I totally agree.
A consistently great dealership "experience" will often outshine a mediocre brand/make "experience".
As an added note, lots of folks love to take potshots at the guy sitting on the top, regardless who he happens to be at the time. As a group, the media excels at that tactic.
I thought that was a Ford issue; premature failure of "nylon" gears.
I have to believe that eventually, cars that are recalled a lot end up with negative equity in the mind of the public.
I did think it odd that there was far more discussion here on the Sonic brake pad recall than on a 350-K vehicle recall that can't be fixed in a few months' time. You can call that what you like, guys, but I think truly disinterested people know what that really is.
I genuinely have to just shake my head when the only call to stop posting recall info is when the Asian makers have had multiple, large recalls for quite a while now. When GM recalls were posted here, I didn't ask for a 'truce'.
Sometimes, stuff just needs to be called what it is.
Ford might have had that issue also. Had the Pontiac towed to my garage. Did not know what failed. A relative with good diagnostic skills came over and found the problem. I did the repair myself, found the faulty gear, bought a new all-metal gear and new chain, water pump, etc, (all GM new parts) and put it all back together.
However, not one of them would be "recalls."
A few recalls would have done my Dodge some good.
Here's one I'd recommend "Recall all vehicles built by Chrysler from the '90's."
If Chrysler had ponied up to pay for the early failures of the AC, head gaskets, and automatic transmission, then I would not have Chrysler on the forever "no consideration whatsoever" list. The car would have still been a lemon, but I would consider their products. They'd likely be last on my list, but at least they'd be on the list.
As it stands, I could bring myself to test drive an ATS, but I couldn't bring myself to waste time driving a Chrysler in a test drive, after all, it's likely to break down during the test drive (odds in favor), and REALLY waste a lot of my time!
Total Recall
No disagreement there, but I'm not too sure about the longevity of the average car buyer's memory.
Toyota certainly had a horrible episode in both PR and recall experiences relating to UA possibilities, but the company seems to be doing pretty well today. And, that wasn't a lifetime back, but just a very few short time ago.
I don't think there's much long-term memory for auto recalls overall....
I think they don't mean much individually, but if there is a trend, that can begin to build a perception of lack of initial quality.
Of course, most here are more concerned with long term reliability than initial quality.
But a lot of GM haters said that the whole bailout was money in the trash. So they are already 80% wrong.
Meanwhile, GM is alive, earning $2.64 billion in Q3 alone.
I'm not including 1st tier suppliers, 2nd tier suppliers, your monkey's uncle, dealers, yadda yadda yadda.
I was then, and remain, pro-bailout. That $2.64 billion would have gone to China.
Yep...
Toyota Motor Corp. today raised its annual profit forecast, closing in on records set before the Lehman crisis as the weaker yen and growing sales in a healthy U.S. market sharply boost earnings
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20131106/COPY01/311069963/toyota-closes-in-on-re- cord-profit-with-healthy-u.s.-sales#ixzz2jtUS453z
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How many investors do you know that will invest 50 only to get 40 back anyway? 50,000 to get 40,000 back? 50 billion to get 40 billion back?
What about interest on the time value of that money since 2008?
What about lost opportunity costs? And I don't want to hear bull about the gov't not being able to invest in private enterprises like Apple. They can, do, and did. They invest in enterprises that buy votes, friends, family, and screw the rest of us.
Recalls now are just CYA, they aren't measures of quality.
It's been said here before, there aren't many bad cars out there these days. They'll all last over 100k, so drive several in your category/price range and buy what you like.
With a few exceptions it's hard to be disappointed these days.
Since the lifecycle of autos is relatively slow (as compared to consumer electronics, for example), it seems to both take much longer to earn a bad reputation, and much longer to gain that good reputation back. A 2-3 year blip in problems doesn't seem to have a huge negative effect if the company's reputation has been generally good.
You take GM, it was 20-30 years of bad vehicles that got it's reputation severly tarnished, along with the BK and bailout, of course. Same with Chrysler.
On the other hand, it took 10-20 years of good vehicles to build the reputations of Honda and Toyota to where they are today. And it's my opinion that both have seen their prime and are declining (not significantly, but slowly), yet their reputations are still good and will take some time to suffer.
And then there's Hyundai, who was awful in the beginning but their reputation is improving, even though their cars have been better for probably a decade or so. Yet they still don't have the reputation of Toy or Hon.
It's a slow game, which is why it is so important to maintain the quality of vehicles. If you lose it, it's going to take a long, long time to get it back.
Well, that's an interesting way of looking at it.
By this logic, if 10x more was loaned and 10x more was lost, then it would still be 80% wrong even though the amount lost would be 10x higher.
Not sure that's a good accounting practice.
Awesome, so technically they have 7 billion more to go... lol, ya right! It'll never get paid back, the loss is on the government share...
Seriously, they could probably erase some of the bad Rep they have if they contributed to the loss and made up the difference one day...
I don't know ten people who own the same model of any automobile currently.
You obviously know a lot more people than I do.
Ironically, my sister has an Odyssey, her husband just bought a new Tundra last week. My wife's sister has a Odyssey, and her husband has a Tundra. Guess next time I see them, I'll have to let them take real truck for a spin;)
I wonder what their profit/loss would be without the special tax breaks that they received as part of the BK/bailout? I ask because I honestly don't know.
Unless you are going off road or towing, a minivan does the same thing with more room, smoother ride, better handling, and better mileage. Somehow people don't think sliding doors are "manly". IMHO they just have image issues....
But in general, I'm with you, I don't get the SUV crazy. Most SUV's are not taken off road and hence the ground clearance is not a benefit; other than for "view of the road from the driver's position."
I have a 2000 Ody which I bought new and it has been an incredible vehicle in many respects. Quality, reliability, handling (for a mini van), ride, fit, finish, paint, interior, engine, transmission, steering, brakes, gas MPG, body and trim integrity, etc. I did have an issue with the sliding door (driver side) and it was covered under warranty. This is one of the top vehicles that I have owned in my driving life. I will need an excuse of some kind to trade this vehicle in on a new mini van of Honda or some other brand, whichever I deem as the best value and of highest quality and reliability.
It is most interesting to hear from people who have owned 2 or 3 vehicles of different manufacturers concurrently. Such as owing a Chevrolet, Honda and Nissan at the same time for many years. Then, let them give their recounts and experiences. Quite a bit different from say a person who may be a senior citizen who only bought and owned Fords all of his driving lifetime. The Ford buyer/owner is like a mushroom. In the dark all of his lifetime. Could also be like GM "only" fans and apologists.
Unless you are going off road or towing, a minivan does the same thing with more room, smoother ride, better handling, and better mileage. Somehow people don't think sliding doors are "manly". IMHO they just have image issues.... >>>>>>
Exactly. People afraid of owning/driving a min-van have some kind of deficiency or character flaw. Why anyone would care about what they are seen driving in speaks to that deficiency. Why would someone be so concerned about the opinions of others as to what they drive.
I have owned a Suburban in the past and now a Honda Odyssey, and STRICTLY, for their functionality and hauling capacities. Over the years I have found it amusing when I see people outside of big box stores trying to stuff their LARGE purchases into their FASHIONABLY smaller suvs or small box pickup trucks while I easily have loaded my large boxes and other into my Suburban or Ody.
Dodge Caravan and Ford Fiesta
Toyota minivan and Mazda 323
Subaru Forester and Honda Civic
Nissan Maxima and Mazda 6 wagon
Honda Accord and Pontiac Vibe
Some overlap of course because we never bought 2 at the same time.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
I know a guy who has a "Condom On Board" triangle hanging sign on his Subaru ski wagon.
I'd be surprised if the OP knew ten people with an Odyssey covered by this recall, since he said 'none have experienced this problem'. Just sayin'.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
If you asked any other automaker if they'd like their vans to sell as well as an Odyssey, you'd have a lot of takers.
Oh yeah, he got another Odyssey.
Other than the new one getting rear-ended last summer, neither Odyssey spent any time in the shop. Just like most cars these days.
http://www.cars.com/for-sale/used/honda/odyssey/_/N-ma9Zfg1ZgrqZm5d?feedSegId=28- - 705&rpp=50&stkTypId=28881&PMmt=1-1-0&zc=02356&rd=100000&mdId=21734&mkId=20017&se- - archSource=SORT&crSrtFlds=stkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId&pgId=2102&sf1Nm=miles&sf1- - Dir=DESC&sf2Nm=price&sf2Dir=DESC
I've known plenty of people with Odysseys over the years and I usually make it a point to ask how they have been for them. I asked because back when the whole Honda V6 tranny things was going on, I was a proud owner of a 2003 Acura MDX which was also subject to transmission problems.
Needless to say, none of the people I talked with had any sort of issues with their transmissions and problems were usually equated to abuse from the kids, lol or the occasional electric doors not working. I do recall one person having a torque converter replaced but I don't remember the mileage on hers...
My MDX? Rock solid for about 120 thousand miles before we sold it to buy my wife's current LLBean edition Outback. Never ever let me down and had very few unexpected repairs or recalls. I was a stickler for maintainance tho, religiously changing the transmission fluid every 30k... But other than not-so-great gas mileage and the requirement for premium fuel around the time when prices were bumping 4 bucks a gallon, I would probably still have it in my fleet...
Ooh, I didn't realize that actually made it through...when I tried to post it yesterday my browser timed out on me.
Anyway, I don't have anything against minivans; I just thought it was funny. :P
In the past, my biggest beef with minivans was having to sit so close to the front of the vehicle, so upright with not that much legroom, whereas a truck-based SUV usually had a more comfortable driving position. For my body, at least.
But, that's probably not true anymore, as minivans have evolved and improved.
But, to be fair, these were all very common vehicles, so I don't know if they were necessarily having higher failure rates, or simply seeing a lot because there were a lot built.
I still think a recall of 350K vehicles is a large recall....and I still have never seen a recall for sudden stopping. That was the original post and you're right, there's been quite a bit of 'drift' from that original post.
That's pretty much what the trans guy told me when I had to have the trans rebuilt in my Suburban. While no question, there are a lot of them on the road, the fact is I probably know 10 people who've had a GM 4l60e trans die long before 100k miles. I know one guy who's had his rebuilt 4 times to make it to 200k.
I have a boat and a camper, so I socialize with a bunch of people with trucks/SUVS.
That whole 4L60E stigma is what tended to keep the GM trucks off of my shopping list. I know the nicer trucks started going to a 6-speed automatic at some point, but I was looking for a more basic, stripper work truck, which would have most likely meant a 4.3 V6 or 4.8 V8 in a GM. And as late as it was in the model year when I bought my Ram, there wasn't a whole lot to choose from in general.
I've heard that the 4L60E can be traced back to the old THM350 transmission, which I think GM debuted in 1968. Shame, because that was a good transmission.
GM would be one of those. GM's minivans were poorly designed and executed. From the dustbuster nosed era to their last bottle-nosed models. GM was incapable of making a competitive minivan and had to leave that segment of the market.
The owner of the trans shop which rebuilt my transmission said the early 4l60e transmissions were good, but GM started using lighter parts to reduce weight and increase FE in 97 or so and I guess changed them a bit in '99-00 too. According to him, with the lighter parts, heat became a bigger issue and the sun gear shell was a major weak spot too.
My FIL still drives a '95 Tahoe on the original trans and he's pushing 200k. It's a total POS otherwise, but it gets him from point A to B and that's all he cares about.
Or you could say GM had prescience and got out of a dying market when the getting was good. Even Chrysler has been debating dropping them.
I think GM could have made a competitive minivan if they had really put more effort into it. But, in the early years, they tried to hard to be unique, rather than following the Caravan/Voyager model. The Chevy Astro/GMC Safari were fairly popular for awhile, but they were more of a 3/4 scale work van, whereas the Caravan/Voyager blended the concept of van, car, and wagon.
I think that, if the minivan market had stayed as large as it was, GM would have toughed it out and improved their product. But instead, they started focusing more on crossovers like the Equinox and Traverse. Seems like today, the only real players in the minivan market are the Caravan/T&C, Oddysey, and Sienna. Ford dropped out, just like GM did. I'm surprised Nissan is holding on with the Quest. I hardly ever see them on the road. And Mazda has that Mazda5 thing, but it's much smaller than the rest, and seems more like the first-gen Odyssey, or even those old tall Civic and Stanza wagons from once upon a time.