Jeep Liberty

leomort · January 2001

I'm one of those Toyota Rav4 potential buyers. I like reliabe vehicles. Chrysler/Jeeps/Dodges are not that reliable from all I've read/heard. The Liberty (Or Cherokee) looks like it might be good alternative if it comes close in price-wise---low 20's. But my question is how reliable will these vehicles be?

Leo

bblaha · February 2001

kem1:
Well, I'd bet this means you have a 2dr Cherokee, for which the hinge problem is pretty common. Never heard of it happening on a 4dr. It is, after all, a result of having a heavy door necessary to get into the back.

leomort:
Noone will actually know how reliable it is until it gets driven around for awhile, but I would expect the Liberty's reliability to be about the same as the Grand Cherokee's, since both are original designs by Chrysler.

rsholland · February 2001

from what I've been reading. Seems they've still got some kinks to that Quadra-Drive system to be worked out.

Bob

mike617 · February 2001

Just spent some time being amused by this Liberty exchange. Nothing new to add (owning 4 XJ's makes me a bit biased), except
BBLAHA, when you become exhausted here, if you are not aware already. you might find some useful info in keeping your Cherokee alive and kicking in the North American XJ Association - NAXJA www.naxja.org

leomort · February 2001

that Jeep/Chrysler dropped the quality ball on their cars. I like alot of thing about Jeep but their unreliabilty keeps me hesitant and not buying. I would expect the Liberty to have alot of problems it first year out, just like alot of other 1st year vehicles. Does anyone know what mileage is expect from the Liberty?

Leo

heyjewel · February 2001

1) I had an '86 Cherokee for 12 years, put over 150K on it and wish I still had it.

2) It was a 2 door, and I never had door problems.

3) It was an AMC/Jeep which I truly believe had better quality than the Chrysler Jeeps, unfortunately.

4) The Liberty will appeal to both soccer moms (like my wife) and folks who like to go off road - but may never do the Rubicon (like me) and will probably be a sales home run. For those hard-core off-roaders, there's still the Wrangler and the JGC.

5) The Liberty ain't perfect, but it (apparently)does a better job than anything else out there at serving the 2 markets: off-road and cute-ute at once.

6) Leo - You ain't gonna get Rav-4 reliability from a Liberty, unless a miracle happens. That said, the Rav-4 is a wimp-mobile and the Liberty is a real capable vehicle, apparently. You'll have to decide if 2 tow-truck incidents in 12 years (my experince with my Cherokee and, it turned out, the second was cause dealer fixed first with wrong part) coupled with go-anywhere hardware is worth more or less that Toyota reliability to go back/forth to the supermarket.

7) Milt721: I emailed Peter DeLorenzo re his Liberty bashing in auto-extremist. I reminded him that the Liberty is the ONLY vehicle in the class he mentioned that has a Lo-range transfer case which completely differentiates it from all the others and truly gives it the 'soul' of a Jeep (as if the grille didn't already). His reply was basically - Oh, yeah. Good point.

8)paisan: ridiculous stereotypes. And, BTW, DC will welcome both types of buyers into their showrooms. And in many cases, both will drive out with a Liberty. The hard-cases will get a Wrangler.

9) Kem1: You've got a '94 Cherokee that's taken you thru the jungles of Panama and the snow-packed muddy dirt streets of Denver for 95000 relatively trouble-free miles and you're complaining? You'll really be complaining if you try to get a Subaru or a Highlander to do the kind of driving you appear to need to do. BTW - Have any of these mechanic geniuses thought your rattle may be the catalytic converter?

10) tonysracing: You got that right. All of it.

11) Leave Yahoo to the yahoos.

- a very probable future Liberty owner. My wife loves it too

leomort · February 2001

with you, heyjewel. Jeep is targeting the RAV4/CRV/Tribute/Escape/GrandVitara-Tracker mini-utes with the Liberty. Since Edmunds also puts the Xterra in this group as well, I think that would be Jeep's only competetion in this class. If Jeep can get at least average reliability from the Liberty, I think it should do well. I don't know if Jeep can keep the price in the same range as those other mini-utes as they seem to be going for something in the low 20's. They also seem to get decent gas mileage as well. It should become an interesting arena in the mini-ute segment. (although I don't consider the Liberty to be a mini-ute).

Leo

paisan · February 2001

I was going to the 2 extremes on my example. I personally think it will be a sales hit. (I embraced IFS in my rodeo and my trooper)

-mike

rsholland · February 2001

the Liberty will go after the cute-ute sales, but it's so much more capable than those vehicles. It can go (far) off road with its low range, and it can tow up to 5000#. None of the cute-utes can do that.

Bob

bimmer4me · February 2001

I love the looks of the Jeep Liberty. I also bought my 95 Jeep Grand Cherokee because of the looks and utility. But I'll never, ever buy another Chrysler product again, no matter how good it looks. I've spent to many days at the Jeep dealer over and over. I'm hoping to sell/unload my 95 JGC and buy a Toyota 4 runner, something more reliable. Now I feel better just admitting that I made a poor choice for and SUV.

ab348 · February 2001

Anyone know where the Liberty will be price-wise? I confess, I'm not in the market, but just for the heck of it I went to D-C Canada's web site today and priced out both a Cherokee and a Grand Cherokee. I was shocked at how expensive they both were.

In admittedly worthless Canadian dollars, the Cherokee came in at the low $30K mark for a decently-equipped one (profitability on something that old must be *huge*) and the GC was in the low $40s. Yikes. Now I'm definitely not in the market. They must make a bundle on these things.

bblaha · February 2001

mike617:
I've lurked in a couple of the NAXJA forums periodically. I probably spend more time lurking at JU. Really, grad school keeps me from being able to get involved in more boards than I already am. But thanks. (and graduation is imminent!)

Its not really exhausting; so long as I can keep it from turning into a Liberty lovefest, I'm content.

You currently have 4 Cherokees?!? Geez. I presume at least one is a dedicated trail vehicle? Are all 4 running or is 1 or 2 of them for parts?

mike617 · February 2001

bblaha:

As you can imagine, over on the NAXJA board the Liberty-XJ discussion was reverse of this one. Final consensus is that it will probably do fine in it's intended market segment, but, can't accept that DC hasn't been listening to reasonable suggestions for upgrades to the XJ and that they are going to stop XJ production. At least the "violent" opposition may have had some impact on dropping the name Cherokee for the KJ. When the Liberty reaches millions sold, thousands logging over 200K miles, and multiple-unti owners, while bouncing around off-pavement and delivering groceries in a less than 22K package, then I guess we'll understand why they dumped the Cherokee.

All four of mine are running, but I have been looking at my first '87 (197K) as becoming a parts supply for the other '87 (150K). I recently retired my '92 (170K) from daily duties to develop it into a "play" mobile - but it has been in some amazing situations in stock condition during it's life. The '96 (65K) is being babied for now. Once again, if you need any XJ questions (tech or non-tech) answered - you can't do any better than NAXJA. Good luck.

Mike

kem1 · February 2001

Leomort and heyjewel,

Yup, my Cherokee is a 2 door. No, no one mentioned the catalytic converter - though I will have it checked out - thanks.

I am excited about the Liberty, I think it will appeal to a lot of people - myself included, but Jeep has experienced a lot of quality problems in the last 3 years (including the Denver service dealers). I just don't know if Jeep can overcome the quality problem that is plaguing all american manufacturers the last few years. (That should be another topic: why can't american auto makers produce quality cars as good as their competition - Honda, Toyota, Subaru). Lets face it - why can't Jeep offer 10yr-100,000 mile drive train warranties? Or why are some of the lower end Honda's and Toyota's offering better interiors than the higher end Jeeps? (I'm not even going to talk about Ford's horrendous interiors).

rsholland · February 2001

the Philly Auto Show yesterday, and met up with a bunch of Edmunds buddies, including Paisan.

They had a Jeep Liberty on display. Unlike the one at the Baltimore Show, this one (still a Sport), was dressed up a bit more. While it still had steel wheels, this one was equipped with the "Up Country" package, with the increased ground clearance. It was interesting to note that the front tow hooks are now inverted 180° so that the open end is now at the top, instead of the bottom.

Paisan_ I forgot to ask you what you thought of the Liberty, now that you've seen it in person.

Bob

paisan · February 2001

Yep, was about to post on it...

Personally, I like the "boxy" look of the std. cherokee, the Liberty will no doubt be a hit with a lot of people. Things I noticed:

High windows/low sills- Love that My Trooper has very high spacious glass windows and low sills, gives a great driving position and visibility.

Shorter rear section- the rear section is much shorter in length than the std. cherokee.

Outside rear tire- Good choice, I like the external tire, much easier for changing tires than the un-body mounted ones.

I did sit in an old cherokee and found it difficult to get in and out of the back doors, so that will no doubt be improved. But if I had to choose only the old or new, I'd go with the old.

-mike

rsholland · February 2001

Interesting. You prefer the old over the new. = O

Bob

bblaha · February 2001

Hey, paisan likes his Trooper. By definition, he likes that "boxy" look. :-)

basepro09 · February 2001

RSHOLLAND, in regards to your message about people cross shopping the cute-utes. I was wondering in what areas the Liberty was going to be coming up short in? As far as I can tell, it blows the competition out of the water if the competition is the cute-utes.

rsholland · February 2001

that Nissan has just announced the 3.3L supercharged V6 (from the Frontier) will go into the 2002 restyled Xterra. That means the 2002 3.3 Xterra and the 2002 3.7 Liberty should be pretty evenly matched in terms of power.

Should make for an interesting comparison test, since they seem to be so evenly matched in terms of features, and are going after the same customers.

Bob

kimmers71 · February 2001

I must say, I LOVE the look of this vehicle. When is this vehicle going to hit the dealers?? I have to drive it. I was set (sort of) on an Escape and was sitting here thinking what other SUVs are there and then I saw this one listed. I think it is very sharp and like the interior.

I too am interested in the price. I'm not in a position to buy until April and it's killing me to wait that long. But if this vehicle is similarly priced to the Escape I'll wait a little longer. If it's a little more $$, I may just get it anyway. Problems with the Escape are making me think twice about it.

Well, I'm off to the library tomorrow to check out the mags that have articles on the Liberty.

bblaha · February 2001

In case anyone is unhappy that Jeep has canceled the Cherokee in favor of the (less capable) Liberty, here is a petition you can sign to express your feelings towards DC.

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/hds2/petition.html

rsholland · February 2001

the Mercedes German site, and noted that the new Liberty will be labeled "Cherokee" in Europe. I wonder if the name Liberty is strictly for North and South(?) America?

Bob

s852 · February 2001

I like both of these vehicles. Someone said that the 2002 Xterra will finally have adequate power.
What it also needs is a height adjustable seat.
The Xterra driver's seat is way too low and it doesn't adjust (even manually). After sitting in an Xterra, I never bothered taking it for a test drive. Add bad gas mileage AND poor power in the same package and it wasn't attractive.
If the new Xterra has improved styling, more power and adjustable seats and is priced competitively with the Liberty, it will be tough completion. I'm guessing the 2002 Xterra will get the muscular cladding and front end styling like the new Frontiers.
The Liberty Limited will have many options available not available on an Xterra, like leather seats and moon roof, but buyers will be very wary of new model Jeep reliability. I am also expecting the Liberty to have a better highway ride and better control over road and engine noise than the Xterra, but that remains to be seen.
I am sure that at least one magazine will have a comparison test when the 2002 Xterra and the 2002 Liberty are released.

bblaha · February 2001

I think the intention from the start was to call the KJ a Cherokee. When they decided to produce both side by side for awhile, they needed a different name. But I don't think they planned on selling the XJ overseas any longer, so overseas the KJ is still a Cherokee.

WIshful thinking tells me that backlash from current XJ owners is keeping DC from renaming the Liberty "Cherokee".

rsholland · February 2001

The 2002 Xterra will indeed have more power, and a freshened look. It was introduced at the Chicago Auto Show.

http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/2001chicagoautoshow/45091/page011.html

Bob

rsholland · February 2001

I think backlash had everything to do with it. At the last minute Jeep marketers wimped out with the name change to "soften" the shock.

My understanding was that the new Liberty was all along going to be called the Cherokee, while the current out-going Cherokee was to be renamed the Cherokee Classic.

Bob

offroaddisco · February 2001

I don't own a Jeep but I am almost compelled to visit a dealer and buy a Wrangler and Cherokee in support for live axle vehicles. If DC wanted to update the Cherokee I would suggest keeping the live axles and going with coils all around, get rid of the lip on the floor pan that you need to step over when entering (it only holds in water

), and go with full time 4wd. But it looks like Jeep wants to make a vehicle like every other non Ute.

rsholland · February 2001

At the risk of restarting this live axle vs. IFS debate; I have yet to hear any complaints from owners of IFS-equipped Land Cruisers, 4-Runners, Tacomas, Tundras, Monteros, Troopers, Rodeos, Pathfinders, or Xterras; as to the off-road ability of their vehicles.

And... please don't tell me that those owners never go off road. I have seen many an IFS-equipped 4x4 being used off roadway off road.

The new IFS/IRS-equipped Montero has been praised left, right, up & down, as to its off-road prowess in virtually every type of automotive publicationincluding those that are off-road oriented.

BTW, the next-generation Range Rover will be IFS/IRS equipped.

Bob

bblaha · February 2001

At the risk of similarly restarting the IFS/solid axle debate, those who are serious about offroading do a solid axle swap...

rsholland · February 2001

If you're talking about encountering the most difficult terrain known to man, you're probably rightfor now.

Although, you may have a hard time of convincing Hummer (or Unimog, or Tacoma, or Montero, etc.) owners of that. Speaking of Unimog, did you read that DC, via Freightliner, will be bringing IFS/IRS Unimogs over here to sell? Yes, and like the Hummer, these are hyper-expensive and purpose-built vehicles. But it won't be too long before we see that technology trickle down to mainstream vehicles.

As you and I both know, 99.5% of SUV owners will never put their SUVs to that kind of test. So, if you were Jeep, who would you build your product for? .5% of the SUV market? Or 99.5% of the SUV market? The answer seems pretty clear to most people.

I am convincedCONVINCEDthat, in 10 years (probably sooner!), Jeep will be out of the solid-axle business. You won't be able to buy a new solid-axle Jeep. Why? Because in 10 years, the IFS/IRS technology will have addressed any and all lingering concerns regarding off-road capability. Solid axles will by then, be thought of in the same context as vacuum-operated windshield wipers and tube tires.

The future, as well as today' market, is with IFS/IRS, not solid axles.

Bob

kem1 · February 2001

Its just taken Jeep a while to catch on to what other manufacturers have already implemented. You CAN have a more comfortable ride and better on-road handling with IFS without having to sacrafice off-road capability.

I for one am getting tired of my '94 Jeep Cherokee's buck-board suspension ride and the crummy gas mileage. I don't get any speeding tickets with the I-6 engine because the engine noise is so loud, I KNOW when I'm going 70mph. (If I buy a quieter car, I'm doomed).

I'm looking forward to the new Liberty - IF Jeep can correct their current quality problems (especially with new vehicles or redesigns).

If you're looking for a car to abuse for "true" off-roading trips and have the money to spare to abuse a vehicle, than by all means buy a current Wrangler or Cherokee. Those of use who can't afford to have a car to purposely abuse but want something to handle occasional dirt roads and unplowed snow on mountain roads, are looking forward to the Liberty. But it was Car & Driver or MotorTrend (can't remember) that said the Liberty actually did better than the Cherokee or the JGC on the Rubicon trail and said the new suspension was just fine for true off-roading.

Some people just have a harding time accepting that change can be a good thing.

rsholland · March 2001

The Nissan Xtrail is already on sale in Europe and Japan, or, at least it has been introduced there.

The Xtrail is more of a Rav4, CRV competitor. It lack a low range, and is aimed at light-duty off-roading. The Liberty and Xterra really are much better matched in terms of capability and customer base. They're both "true" on/off road vehicles, with a high/low transfer case.

Bob

bblaha · March 2001

rsholland:
Why is it that anytime someone wants to say independent suspension can be just as good as solid axles (offroad) always bring up the hummer (and unimog). The portal axles they use are unlike any other independent suspension. They are also expensive and not used on the Liberty.

Sorry, but if the Tacoma wants to play rough, it has to have a solid axle swap done. Its a matter of geometry. Solid axles have twice the swivel arm that independent suspensions have. Independent suspension will never have the wheel travel/articulation you can get with a solid axle.

I'm not sure you aren't correct though. Jeep may very well be out of the live axle business in the near future. But so too will its offroad prowess vanish. It may be moot anyway; I am at a complete loss to comprehend how Daimler could have turned Chrysler around the last couple of years the way it has...

kem1: Name one vehicle that switched to indep suspension and didn't give up offroad abilitity. Not even the TLC could do it.

rsholland · March 2001

Regarding the Hummer and Unimog: You made my point precisely. Both these vehicles use IFS/IRS systems that are purpose-built for off-roadand they WORK!

Yes they are expensive. I also said that in my post. My point is that there are other ways of building independent suspensions. The Hummer and Unimog are two good examples. The luner rover showed another completely different approach.

Speaking of expense, most new technologies often occur on premium products first, and then, sooner or later, the technology trickles down to mainstream products, with a corresponding drop in price. Down the (off) road, Jeeps could very well be wearing suspensions not unlike the Unimogespecially now that they are all under the same corporate umbrella. In ten years time, it could be very possible. We just don't know.

Again, it all depends on what you're going to do off road. If you're going rock crawling, with the current state of technology, solid axles are best. If you're off-road racing, I think IFS/IRS has the edge. The recent 3-week Paris-Dakar race was won by a IFS/IRS Pajero (Montero). I think there was maybe one(?) Jeep that participated. I'm not even sure if it finished. Many, in not most, Baja racers have IFS.

You know, we have argued this point... it seems like forever. Maybe I'm just a polyanna-optimist. I just can't help but think future off-road vehicles will be better in every way than the current crop. That includes IFS/IRS suspensions.

Bob

bblaha · March 2001

So you feel the suspensions on the hummer and unimog make them comfortable onroad?

They're specialized vehicles. From a consumer point of view, they have no bearing whatsoever. I would argue, from a sprung/unsprung weight POV, they are much more like a solid axles than traditional indep suspensions.

Indep suspension is better for high speeds offroad; I won't argue that. But for riding on trails, inherently slow, I want a solid axle.

If Jeep doesn't provide them, I've bought my last Jeep.

Oh, and although I'm only guessing at this, I would bet the lunar rover had ind susp simply because it was the only way that could get it to fold up...

drew_ · March 2001

The M-class won last year's Dakar Rally in the T1 class, and placed 2nd this year (this year's rally was far tougher). :-)

You're right, Juta Kleinschimdt (first woman to win the Dakar, BTW) won the rally in her 2 door Mitsubishi Pajero.

Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards

rsholland · March 2001

I'm not saying that the Unimog and Hummer offer the ultimate IFS/IRS solution. What I am saying they point a way that is different from conventional wisdom in terms of independent suspension design. Out-of-the-box thinking if you will.

Consider this: 10-20 years ago IFS/IRS for off-roaders was virtually unheard of. Today IFS/IRS, while still somewhat of a rarity, is no longer a surprise, and is being investigated by just about every manufacturer who has an interest in producing an off road vehicle. Having said that, think about what the SUV landscape will be in another 10 years, or 20 years.

Bob

rsholland · March 2001

Did you watch the Paris-Dakar on SpeedVision?

I'm telling youit was wild. Bikes, buggies, SUVs, huge trucksgreat coverage. I watched in January, as it was occurring, and last week they had an hour long summary covering the main highlights.

I did see at least one ML, and numerous Pajaros (both long and short wheelbase models). By their sheer numbers alone, the Pajaro (Montero) seems to be the vehicle of choice for this race. That says a lot (to me) about the off-road capability of IFS/IRS systems.

Bob

drew_ · March 2001

Yes, I watched it last year too because that was the first time the MLs ran in it. In fact, I screen captured the MLs from Speedvision's coverage ( http://go.to/m-class ). 6 ML430s ran in this year's Dakar.

Yep, lots of IFS/IRS vehicles. In fact, I think that just about all of the prototype class vehicles were IFS/IRS. That said though, I do agree with bblaha that for slow/rocky off-road usage, solid axles may be more predictable/better. Just my humble opinion though.

BTW, you probably already know this (maybe), but the next generation Jeep Grand Cherokee will have IFS because of its far better ride and handling on-road. Also, the next generation Range Rover is all independent.

But I digress...

Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards

jrtx · March 2001

Do you think the Liberty is going to be as structurally sound as the Cherokee? See the link below for my crash test results and Jeep Cherokee - Topic Consolidation message #93 for a description of the accident. I was really surprised by the Cherokee and how rugged the suspension is on this truck. This is one argument for solid axles.

http://community.webshots.com/user/jrtx

rsholland · March 2001

It's only my guess, but I would think, if anything, it would be more rigid. The current Cherokee has been around since 1984, or there abouts. I'm sure the new "body" is much more rigid than the old one. There has been a lot of knowledge gained over those years in terms of body strength, and I'm sure it has been put to good use with the new model. As to whether the suspension has any effect on that, your guess is as good as mine.

Bob

rsholland · March 2001

Yep. I knew about the next Range Rover going IFS/IRS. My understanding is that its suspension design was heavily influenced by the the BMW X5, because much of the early development was done under BMW's leadership. Unlike the BMW, however, I'm sure it will be much more off-road capable.

As for the next Grand Cherokee, there are a number of rumors floating around. One of the most intriguing is the oft-rumored "Overland" which has a height-adjustable suspension. I also believe it is fully independent. The recent Jeepster concept had a similar setup, I believe. One recentand very disturbing rumoris that the next GC may not have a low range. To me (and to every Jeep lover), if that occurs, it would be an utter disaster for Jeep.

Bob

paisan · March 2001

You can forget about longevity... No matter how you slice it or dice it, rubber will eventually dry and crack, and then you are looking at like $2500 to repair the suspension!

-mike

rsholland · March 2001

I don't know that it is air-adjustable, only that it is "adjustable."

Bob

paisan · March 2001

I just lost a heated arguement with a friend who is a mechanic/car salesman/car nut. I thought the cherokee was a body-on-frame vehicle, but it is not in fact. It is uni-body with frame rails on the bottom. I fought to the death til he showed me an article from a car magazine in the early 90's. Very interesting.

-mike

rsholland · March 2001

Both the Cherokee and Grand Cherokee are unit-body. Always have been. They do differ from conventional unit body construction, in that a small "frame" is welded to the unit body for extra reinforcement.

Bob

bblaha · March 2001

rsholland: Now wait a minute. Why would any future Jeep need a low range? 99.5% of them are never taken offroad right? That's who Jeep is selling to right?

Moving to IFS is already a disaster for Jeep lovers. What's one more?

Paisan: Of course the Cherokee is unibody; how else could it be so light. Its also one of the reasons why sunroofs aren't offered as an option. When the XJ first came out, that it was unibody was one of its biggest criticisms.

paisan · March 2001

between the Cherokee and Grand Cherokee. But I standed corrected. Interesting to know though.

-mike

rsholland · March 2001

99.5% of SUV owners don't subject there vehicles to the kind of off-road abuse you subscribe to. I never said 99.5% never go off road.

I do go off road every now and then. I have absolutely no desire to go rock crawling, or to put my vehicle in harms way. I do want a low range to help me get out of sticky situations. I see no conflict of interests here.

Also, re: sunroofs- why then do they offer a moonroof on the Grand Cherokee, which is also unibody?

I find it funny, that youa young PAD candidate in mechanical engineeringto be so closed-minded about new engineering ideas, concepts, and possibilities. All I hear from you is what can't be done, not what can be done. Judging by what I'm seeing in the way of new product, there seem to be a lot of mechanical engineers who don't share your thinking.

Or, perhaps you feel all these engineers are being "forced," by marketing types, to design and engineer items that they really don't believe in.

If all mechanical engineers were so conservative with their thinking, we would still be riding in horse and buggys. All I can say is, thank God for those who believe in the power of "What if..." thinking.

Bob

Jeep Liberty

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