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Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

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Comments

  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    ... the RWD IS300 with LSD is a better all around serious sport sedan than either the FWD TSX (which is actually based on the European Accord) or FWD TL. Though, the much more powerful TL has to deal with torque steer more than the much less powerful TSX.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    dewey... Amen, brother! Size kills (performance). Usually means a heavier car and a longer/wider car. Normally hurts handling, braking, fuel economy, and maneuvering.

    If the IS upsizes, I'll be looking at BMW 1/2 Series.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "If the IS upsizes, I'll be looking at BMW 1/2 Series"

    Likewise! A BMW1 series or even an A3 as mentioned by Lexusguy.

    But my family's elbow space dictates otherwise. A family compromise could be a future 3 series touring, although I would have preferred a future IS wagon that is not too large.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    THe IS300s fuel economy is in the cellar in it's current form. I don't think it can go any lower. Can it? A larger next generation IS with a newer tech engine will most certainly get better gas mileage.

    Bigger brakes=improved braking.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I posted this in the A3 thread, after stealing it from someone else on another forum, but it goes to the heart of the matter for me:

    Much of the perfection of the current IS, IMO, is in its size, which as Road and Track put it, in a comparo, is like: "...(going) from a Thunderbolt to a Spitfire, or a Stearman to a Pitts, to put it in aviation context. The IS 300 is really the sports car of this group, and it feels small, taut, nimble and fun. As one driver noted, you 'wear' this car more than any of the others."

    That's a quality that will certainly be lost with the extra 5" of width the next gen will get. Problem is, to understand the implications, you'd have to have an intimate association with the current car that so few here have.

    Would be fun if they could take the IS wherever they want to compete with the behemoth G35, expanding 3-series and swelling A4, for market share and volume purposes, and give the enthusiasts an A3 whacker. Call it the VS : Very Small or Viciously Sporty or Vastly Superior...

    I had the SportCross out over a near deserted highway 84 from Woodside, CA to the Pacific last week. To own it is to love it, pure and simple.
    [sigh]
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I'm pretty sure I saw the 2006 IS in concept form at the NYIAS, and it maybe slightly larger, but it is definitely an evolutionary update, similar flavor to the current car. It would appear that Lexus likes the looks of the exterior, and focused on the interior. I would expect the 245HP six out of the GS to be the main engine.

       Probably more is that they like the clientele it is bringing in (25-35 men, non-Lexus buyers, performance shoppers). I just don't know when Lexus will something for them to move up to. The next GS (also at the NYIAS) is a step back in style, and it doesn't advance the state-of-the-art mechanically, or dynamically.

       
       It seems my vote for a production LF-S did not get through the House! At least I didn't vote for Bush!

     
       DrFill
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    You mean the LExus LF-C concept shown last year? THat's supposed to be a hint of the IS300's styling direction. If that is what you are talking about, it looks totally different from the current IS.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    maxhonda...

    1. IS fuel economy is hurt by the aggressive gearing. The IS has a very high numerical final drive ratio (which hurts economy in all gears) and a rather numerically high 5th top gear ratio, for both automatic and manual (which really hurts highway and high speed fuel economy, esp. when the final drive is so numerically high). The IS really needs a much deeper top gear (say at least a .75 or .70 overdrive. Believe the TL uses a .49! So does Corvette!!!

    2. The laws of physics dicate that--holding all else the same--weight hurts performance. Add weight and you decrease acceleration. Add weight and you'll increase braking distance. Just throw 300 hundred pounds of sand in your trunk and you'll see!!!! Weight also hurts handling and fuel economy. Weight is always the enemy!!!!!

    [I'll take both bigger brakes and lighter weight.]
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    You don't mean this, do you?
    image

    It's the aforementioned Mark X, which looks ever so like the current Altezza/IS that it has been mistaken as such.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Thanks. I didn't know increased weight leads to lower fuel economy and longer stopping distances. I thought it was the opposite.

    The IS's fuel economy is hurt by "aggressive" gearing and a archaic engine. If the gearing is soo aggressive, why does it still get outrun by a 184BHP 325i? And I would think, considering the drivetrain is the same as in the GS300, that the more aggressive gearing would give it a stronger lead in 0-60 times over the GS300(given that the IS300 is also about 300lbs. lighter), but it is only marginally quicker.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Max is right. The IS300's engine is a decade old, and its power is hurt from GS and even the old SC because of the tight packaging and single exhaust. Thats kind of pathetic that it makes less power than a 1993 SC300. The use of the GS300's new 3.0L direct injection V6 in a lighter car than GS should make fuel economy skyrocket, and power will be up significantly at the same time. The new IS is going to be a plain better car than the current one.
  • jmessjmess Member Posts: 677
    Magazine better or real world better? Some new designs carry the same name but fail to catch the essence of what made the original interesting. It remains to be seen if the new IS will be a real drivers car. I tend to think it won't because the magazine drivers and can't tell the diff anyway. How else could BMW sell a so many cars without a limited slip?

    Toyota probably needs the new IS to be good on gas so it will help their CAFE rating and allow them to sell more Stupid-UVs.

    I am starting to think my next car will be a turbo AWD 4 banger or some American muscle like the C6. I don't expect anything really interesting to come from Toyota/Lexus to change my mind.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "I tend to think it won't because the magazine drivers and can't tell the diff anyway. How else could BMW sell a so many cars without a limited slip?"

    Ok what does that sentence mean? I think you skipped a few words. I think the new car will be magazine better AND real world better. There will probably be a manual at launch this time, which should save them from C&D wrath. Power will be up, acceleration up, practicality up, space up, mileage up, luxury content up, and competitiveness with G35 and TL finally realized. That sounds like a winning formula to me.

    Since when does Toyota need any help with their CAFE rating? Did you forget Toyota makes a car with a 60mpg EPA rating? Their cars are some of the worlds most fuel efficient. Its the Americans that are fighting increases in CAFE regulations so that they can continue to sell their full size land whales with monster OHV engines.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    You'll have to check out my post in the IS300 board. But as just one example, the IS300 automatic is geared such that it can only go 54 mph in 2nd gear. That means it has to shift into 3rd to get to 60 mph. The BMW 330i automatic can go 67 mph in 2nd gear, so it reaches 60 mph with just one shift. Any time you have to have two shifts before you get to 60 mph, your 0-60 mph time suffers horribly.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    "Well, you can bet that one engine will be the 3.0L V6 that's in the '06 GS."

    Actually, my Lexus salesperson told me the other day exactly the same thing the Midwest Regional Manager said at the Lexus Taste of Luxury driving event in August. There will be a 2.5 V6 with about 240 hp and a 3.5 V6 with about 320 hp. The AWD will only be available with the 2.5. Take it for what it's worth. We'll have to wait and see if these two guys are accurate.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Doesn't make much sense to me to have a 2.5L V6 with 240bhp and a 3.0L V6 in the lineup with only 5 more BHP.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The base IS250 is going to have a 2.5L engine, but only about 215-220hp. The midlevel car will get the GS 3.0L with 245, and the range topper IS350GT gets the 3.5L mystery engine. Lexus has stated it will not get hybrid power like GS350GT, so horses are gonna be somewhere between 280-320 or so. There are no hard numbers yet.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    What you say sounds very reasonable, but again, both Lexus guys I talked with said the 3.0 will not be offered in the IS. When I questioned this, the Midwest Regional Manager in August said there are two distinct groups of potential buyers. Those wanting a reasonably priced (for Lexus anyway) performance sedan (who will be targeted by the IS 250) and those wanting all-out power (who will be targeted by the IS 350). He said there was not a "middle buyer" and that is the reason there would be no IS 300. Maybe the guy is wrong. Maybe things have changed since August. I'm just letting you know what he said.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    The car doesn't need 3 engines, and a 300HP GT will not keep up with an S4 or M3/4. If anything, I would expect a hybrid 3.5 to compete at $45-50k in 2008.

     
      And that picture of the large sedan above will HOPEFULLY become the Toyota Avalon, but I doubt it.

      DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interesting. I guess that sort of makes sense, the 2.5L at 220 or so horses would be pretty close to the IS300, so I can see there would be some redundancy there. (Like A6 2.7T and 4.2). I dont think the objective of the IS350 would be to take on C55, S4, or M3\4. Lexus doesnt seem like its ready for the 350+hp game yet. I think its more reasonable targets would be TL A-spec and G35 6MT.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I just think it will be a hybrid, more likely than a V8. Especially with all the press the CTS-V has gotten, and the spike in sales with the power increase.

       I'm more interested in pricing. A wel-equipped G35 is well below 35k, so do you price the base IS at $28,995 ($1k less), then $33,995 for a 270 HP 3.5, around the Acura TL, then two years later add a mega IS at $47-48k. Convertible should be around $40-45k.

       DrFill
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    Tuners have gotten the 4.3L V8 into the IS... the next IS will probably be bigger so it would be even easier to do.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Agree, its just for the moment, lexus has said no hybrid power for IS, and no V8 either. No NA market Lexus has ever had a turbo, so I dont think they would go that route, either. So unless a hybrid is way off and they dont want anyone to know yet, its safe to say they wont be competing with C55 AMG, at least for now.

    There was the Millen IS430, but Lexus wasnt interested in a production version of the project. Too bad, it was about 2 seconds faster to 60mph than the IS300, thanks to the aluminum V8 only weighing a few pounds more than the steel IL6.
  • speedluxspeedlux Member Posts: 23
    Just for info. It's confirmed a new toyota avalon will get 280hp/260ftlbs.
    http://www.tundrasolutions.com/dealers/vehicles/2005-Avalon/index- - .htm#_Toc88045299
    I just hope this new V6 will be use for IS, then it make Is be winner in it section.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yeah that engine would give an IS350 a real fighting chance, equaling G35, and beating everything else.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Have you ever noticed how BMW worries more about generating performance numbers (e.g., 0-60 mph, 70-0 mph braking, skidpad, etc.) than raw power figures?

    That means focusing on the total package. Engine, transmission (esp. good gearing!), brakes, tires, etc.

    What good is "280 HP" unless you know how much your specific car actually measures where the rubber hits the road?

    I love to read the road tests in which the much less powerful 3 Series somehow out-accelerates the more powerful car!

    I'd much rather see Lexus create a car that actually performs than worry merely about numbers. That is what killed the IS. The performance didn't live up to the initial hype or expectations.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "I'd much rather see Lexus create a car that actually performs than worry merely about numbers. That is what killed the IS. The performance didn't live up to the initial hype or expectations."

    I thought the dealer's killed the car?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    LMAO!!!!

    Touchê, maxhonda.

    Riez?

    ~alpha
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    I've always said it was a joint function of Lexus (e.g., no manual transmission at initial release, failure to provide the right cars for press testing, limited advertising, etc.) and its dealers (who didn't adapt to selling the car well to a different demographic and would rather focus on the easy sell of ESs and SUVs).

    And, of course, the car has to measure up to the competition. Unfortunately, Lexus and its dealers made that competition the 330i and not the 325i. The IS didn't measure up to the much more expensive 330i and Lexus failed to link the IS to the 325i.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    You'll notice BMW is coming out with a new version of their 3.0L that makes 250hp though. Their cars are still fast enough that they dont really need to do it, but when they only have 220hp, and Audi has 250 and MB has 268, it looks bad. Same with the IS300. 215hp was not good enough, especially when you can get a Camry with 230.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    This will sound juvenile (perfect for the Hall), but I'll happily run for pink slips on Mullholland Dr. in my li'l stock IS against anyone here in a stock 230-pony Camry! Happily! Gleefully! With unfettered jubilation!

    Any takers? ;)

    It ain't always about the ponies, as Riez has said.

    Obviously, though, the way the market has trended, the next gen IS will have to have a bump. I openly deride the idea, however, that it must trump the competition in HP or torque to be a "success". A driver's car is about driving, not stoplight racing.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I didnt say Camry was faster, I said it has more horsepower. So does the Sienna minivan. That looks bad. IS350 doesnt need to have 350hp, but it DOES need to be competitive with TL and G35.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    To riez's point, the numbers to worry about are the performance numbers. If car A and car B are fairly similar in most physical aspects, but car A has 10% fewer ponies (or whatever) yet performs even marginally better than car B, only morons will care about the difference in ponies.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Acceleration figures, esp. one acceleration figure (i.e., 0-60 mph), are not the be all and end all of a serious all around sport sedan. The key is good all around balanced performance. That is where the 3 Series has excelled for decades.

    All of these are very, very important:

    - handling
    - steering
    - braking
    - acceleration

    The above would be my order of importance. Heck, having the best tires possible is the one single most important thing (which is why the smart buyer gets their BMW with the Sport Pkg). And I agree with C&D that the most meaningful acceleration number for the vast majority of drivers is the 5-60 mph standing start number. (Just read the various methodologies in the different major car magazines showing how they get their best 0-60 mph time. Not too many people are doing 4K RPM drop clutches every day!!!)

    And the above list is also why I love my '04 IS300 sedan with LSD and 5-speed manual.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "The IS didn't measure up to the much more expensive 330i and Lexus failed to link the IS to the 325i."

    How are you going to link the IS to just the 325i? The Majority of people see the 325i and 330i as one, the 3-series. One would have a hard time trying to get that advertising message out, "compare the IS300 to the 325i". It would actually be downright stupid on Toyota's part to do that because let's face it, the IS300 has a straight 6 with 3.0 liters and when it can't compete with the 3.0L motor in the 3-series it doesn't say a whole lot of good things about the car. Second, alot of people who end up buying a 325i probably went in looking to buy a 330i but due to the inflated price of 330i's on dealer lots they end up buying a 325i. Lastly, Lexus should have just gone for the top dog 330i, like Infiniti has at a lower price point. See how successful that car is?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I don't think a 230bhp Camry is too far of a IS300 automatic's 0-60 pace! Will you really be "gleeful" if a bland rental car mobile is only a 1/2 car length behind you at 60?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Exactly. G35 and TL sell because people think, wow its as fast as a 330i, and look how much I'm saving!" When you look at IS300, is it as fast as 330i? Well no, but its competitive with 325i. Does it cost less than the BMW? Well, no. Do I get the BMW badge? Well, no. Is it as luxurious as the BMW? Well, no. Why am I buying this car?

    Camry wouldnt be far off, and the IS300 would be beaten by an Altima or Accord.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I think the 225 hp Camry would actually show its taillights to the automatic equipped IS.

    C/D clocked the Solara V6 at 6.9 to 60 and the IS300 auto at 7.4, I believe.

    Thats no good.

    ~alpha
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "Exactly. G35 and TL sell because people think, wow its as fast as a 330i, and look how much I'm saving!"

    Lexusguy,
    many car buyers are ignorant and will just look at the hp figure to determine how fast the car goes. This is ignorance and ignorance sells! You are 100percent correct in your above statement.

    Riez and Walebate1,

    you both are speaking as informed enthusiasts. Unfortunately informed enthusiasts are a minority! Do you really think Lexus will keep the size of the IS the same to cater to the minority of enthusiasts. Dont bank on it! Toyota will pay more closer attention to the uninformed majority and make the next generation IS bigger. Is that not what the BMW is doing with the future 3 series? Being in the minority really sucks and I am one among them!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Lexusguy,
    many car buyers are ignorant and will just look at the hp figure to determine how fast the car goes."

    Theres one problem with that. The 220hp BMW 330i is as quick as the 270hp TL and 277hp G35. The 215hp IS300 is not. Its slow. Its uncompetitive.
  • paranoyaparanoya Member Posts: 2
    with so much power, where do these people drive their cars??
    most people drive to work I bet...

    It boggles my mind :o
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "with so much power, where do these people drive their cars??
    most people drive to work I bet"..

    combining the 3 following things:
    1) Icy winters(as up here in Canada)
    2)RWD
    3)Immense power

    With the above combination you do not end up at work, but in a ditch!
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Well the majority of voices in here are speaking from a stoplight racing viewpoint, which is contrary to the philosophies of the 3-series and IS300 in the first place. Phrases like a camry showing tailights are examining a single aspect of a car's performance with blatant disreagard for what makes driving most satisfying to begin with.

    Obviously, my reference to Mulholland Dr. is a regionalism that most here don't know about. My apologies. It's a road down in LA that winds along hilly canyons with plenty of up and down and all around. It's the kind of road a driver's car is designed for. And there is no stock Camry or 325i that will keep up with an IS on it. Just fact friends. That's the appeal of the car. You want to stoplight race, I believe there are Dodge trucks and GM SUVs that can kick a TL or G35 in a straight line and bring home an upright piano to boot! What's the point?

    Re 325/330: The car is priced below a 325 trim-to-trim. It's way below a 330 on price. The competition here is with the higher volume, more popular and more closely priced 325. Riez pegged that one too.

    Bottom line: we know it needs a boost to compete with newer models. It was right in the pack when intro'd and the pack has added muscle since. The Supra iron block can't be bumped for more without a breathing apparatus. So a new plant or two with more ponies is inevitible. Given. OK?

    The focus should not now, nor ever be, winning at stoplights. That's for Neranderthal flatlanders in fly-over states, and GM, Ford and Mopar can take care of those folks, IMO...
    [-P
    ;)
  • r2917r2917 Member Posts: 67
    Don't you know? Everyone goes and drag races on public streets so having all the HP and 0-60 times in 2 seconds is the goal.:) Or, it could be that people see 0-60 times and HP figures as a way to measure themselves. I don't know but it boggles my mind as well.

    I have a 2001 IS and I find it quick enough for me and any added pwoer is really of no use to me. Guess I'm in the minority.

    I agree totally with wale bate...stoplight racing is IMO silly and useless. Give me great handling first and the current IS300 is pretty good in that area.

    It'd be sad if Lexus just increases the power of the new IS but gives it inferior handling and driving excitement. That'd be a step backward to me but I guess to the ignorant mass public so obsessed with HP, it would be a foot forwad.

    Sad....
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Look at history! The BMW 3 series was never the fastest car from 0-60 compared to competition. The BMW 3 series never had the highest hp compared to the competition.

    The fact that the 3 series remains the benchmark in overall performance/handling say a lot about the fact that a car should not be judged just by a few statistics(hp, o-60).

    I think Toyota engineers are aware of the above facts. Hopefully the Toyota marketing people will communinicate as well with their engineers as they do with their customers.

    I am impressed by Honda's endeavors with the S2000(not exactly a high volume seller). Also a future vehicle that sounds very interesting(assuming you are not very status-sensitive) is the AWD MazdaSpeed 6.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    lexusguy... You wrote:

    - "When you look at IS300, is it as fast as 330i? Well no, but its competitive with 325i."

    The IS300 is actually faster (i.e., it has a higher top speed). Other than the M3, the 325i and 330i, even with Sport Pkg, are electronically limited to about 130 mph. The IS300 will do around 140 mph. [There is a difference between being faster and accelerating quicker.]

    - "Does it cost less than the BMW? Well, no."

    The 330i is much, much more expensive. You're pushing $38-40,000. The 325i is also more expensive. When similarly equipped, the 325i on the dealer's lot is about $33-35,000. Today the cheapest 325i is pushing $30,000.

    - Do I get the BMW badge? Well, no.

    Will admit it is truly sad that so many (too many) people buy the badge. But I think Lexus has earned a rather prestigious badge these past 15 or so years! Does the badge help make you feel better taking the car in for repairs, recalls, etc?

    - Is it as luxurious as the BMW? Well, no."

    There wasn't much luxurious about my wife's '00 323ia even with Premium Pkg. Of course, everything from leather to power seat to sunroof to CD was optional!!!

    - "Why am I buying this car?"

    Because the IS300 is the best balanced blend all around serious sport sedan that is also high quality, has high reliability, great warranty, and dealers who excel at customer service.

    - "G35 and TL sell because people think, wow its as fast as a 330i, and look how much I'm saving!"

    Both Acura and Infiniti have spent a fortune on advertising. They have gotten their message out on both the G35 and TL. The G35 has been helped by the coupe and AWD versions maintaining press coverage.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/08/pf/autos/cr_auto_reliability/
  • r2917r2917 Member Posts: 67
    Cant comment on any drive characteristics of the 3 series as I have never driven or bene a passenger in one aside from late 80s 3 series models.What I can comment on is the interior of the current 3 series and I think it isn't impressive at all. I sat in a loaded 330xi at the toronto auto show last february and was sickened at how junky the interior was and was left wondering why some praise BMW for their interior quality.

    I also do not get the love affair people have over Audi interiors. I sat in a loaded A8 at that same auto show and didn't see anything that was all that impressive to warrant the claim that Audi has the best interiors in the business.

    I wont even get into Mercedes interiors. Horrible and the most uncomfortable seats (in a loaded S430) I have ever experienced.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    so r2917,

    The fit and finish of the interiors you criticise above are considered the best in the industry.

    Nothing wrong with your personal opinion. To each their own.

    Personally I prefer a Noman Rockwell more than a Leanardo Davinci. To each their own.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Wondering if you two are talking about two different things. Interior quality is often reflected in discussions about the look and feel of the interior. Fit and finish often refers to how things were put together, e.g., the gaps between things, are lines aligned straight, etc.

    You can use wonderful materials and put them together poorly, or use lower quality materials but put them together perfectly.

    As for 3 Series interior quality, you do have to keep in mind that pretty much everything is optional, at least on the 325i. That means standard vinyl (pleather) seats, no sunroof, etc.
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