It already lost the overall C&D contest to the BMW. They loved its straightline performance (Acura TL was #2), but didn't like the nannies. BMW won even though the thing suffered from 3 electrical problems, one severe.
Please don't let us revisit this again.... BMW did NOT win. Did you consider a 1pt difference a win ???? Besides, if you simply add up the scores for each category you'll actually find that the scores are EXACTLY the same for the 330i and the IS350...
This has been argued to death already...so lets move on
I took my coworker for a ride in my new IS. He is 6'3" by the way. Right after he sat down and adjusted his seat he took a look in back and his exact words were "wow, you have a lot of room back there." He wasn't being sarcastic, and he clarified that he expected it to be smaller.
I am beginning to think that with the telescoping wheel and driver seat preferences, the true size of the back seat will remain a matter of opinion. I find that I can get comfortable both close up with my knees more bent and further back with my legs more straight. I haven't even set my seat memory after 3 days because I can't decide which I like better. There is no question though that if a tall driver wants to sit flat, it will be no fun behind him. However, I think this will be true no matter what car we are discussing in this class.
I can't believe you already got your IS 350. After all that waiting for the car to be released, it seems just like yesterday that it was unveiled in Geneva. You are pretty happy I bet. You have any speeding tickets yet? Have you surprised anybody at the stoplights?
This is pretty much the car of my dreams (I have a lot of dreams ). I'll keep on dreaming for the next 6 months.
I can't believe I haven't even test-driven this car.
Winnipeg sucks.
At least I am invited to the unveiling (Yea, no kidding, how late can they get?) on the 27th. I can just taste it now; scallops, seared tuna, proscuitto hors d'hourves... mmmm... IS 350...
ok finally visited the lexus dealership, sat in a new is with navi, its a very beautiful car, right before it i visited acura and looked at the TL and RL. The only car i would say outside of lexus that can compare to the luxurious materials in the IS is the RL and you would be paying a bit more for that. Anyways, something that i didnt like, im a pretty big guy (6'1 185lbs) and i know there have been differences in opinions about the IS interior, but i guess my legs were too long cause even with the seat down all the way and pretty far back my knee still felt really close to the base of the steering wheel (with that said, im still interested in the IS just waiting for the lux package with navi to become available in socal - the one i saw was premium and navi -bleh NO: xenons, tilt steering wheel, memory seat... list goes on). As far as sound, the base pioneer sound system was very nice, dont know how much better the mark levinson could possibly be, has anyone tested the ML system in the new IS???
Well said jpenn. When it comes down to it, the C&D authors are rating how the cars perform on a track. I took the 330i for a test drive and it does handle great, but the interior is quite bland and uninspiring. I agree that the 330i has a slight edge on handling, but for the remaining 99% of the time when you're not on a track or a mountain road, the advantages of the IS far outweigh the slight edge the BMW exhibits in handling. The back seat is small, but if I do ferry somebody around in the back seat, I'm glad there is an extra 50 ponies at my disposal.
Lexus did miss the mark on pricing, though. Let them take advantage of the buzz that's been created and come springtime, I think the dealers will be more flexible on pricing. I just can't imagine laying out 44K on this car. 40K perhaps...
Test drove the IS250 last Sunday but didn't got chance to try the IS350. My take:
1. Drive: great. Mine has 19" custom wheels and summer tires. The ride is firm but not harsh. Most the driving is in local and never feel jarring when over a section of broken pavement. The steeling is quicker than all Toyota and Lexus I have driven and feel is not like true sport car but direct. Sterring effort is toward heavy side, unlike other lexus. I guess the ride with standard 18" wheel and tires will be better but less grip at turn. I like it more than other Lexus and all Acura. Less ideal compare to BMW 325i I test drove a week ago. The manual gear selection is quick and smooth, and allow you to push to the red line instead of shift up automatically. Nice, very nice. It basically eliminate the need for manual transmission except the feel and clutch paddle. My 2 cents.
2. Exterior: I like it a lot. Clean and aggressive line. The tails is alittle out of the scheme but the LED tail light looks cool. It's not as elegant as GS nor as aggressive as BMW 3s.
3. Interior: Definitely better than the old I300 it replaces but not as great as the GS. Here is where you can see the price cutting on the material but not bad at all. My test drive car doesn't have the NAV, but the standard LCD display looks cool. The leather seat is very comfortable with good side support during aggressive driving and the quality of the leather is top rated to meet Lexus standard. For BMW 3s, you need to get 330i or upgrade for 325 which is plastic but feel like leather.
4. Spacing: Here is the weakness of the IS. When my friend who is 6'2" and push the seat almost all the way back, my 5'10" body with regular seam can only sit tight and upright with knee barely touch the back of front seat. Good thing is the surface of the seat back is contour and with good padding. And the toe space is good. The back seat definitely only suitable for two, not three. The Bimmer 3s has more leg room but tighter on toe space.
Overall, the total package is excellent and the price is comparable if not cheaper. I think Lexus did do the homework and I am giving them a good grade. For whom like Lexus quality and value, but demand better driving dynamic and don't need lots back seat room and trunk space, the IS is close to a winner and reserve a test drive. Compare to BMW 3s, I would take the IS250 over 325 mainly for the dislike of the iDrive in the 3's. I don't live in the area with lots of curvey roads either so the IS is sporty for me in daily driving. I agree it's a tough call to pick a winner. It could be easier if the German manufacturer didn't fall in love with the iDrive.
On the way to work this morning I was at a red light right next to a guy driving a brand new BMW 330 (no plates on his yet either). I am very religious about the break-in, and I can't tell you how hard it was not to stomp on it when the light turned green.
I'm debating between m35 and IS350 as mentioned earlier. If they made an Is350 in stick anytime soon, it would make my pick that much easier. Yes it is a different class and size but price isnt too off. One thing for sure, both cars have the luxury, performance, and reliability I'm looking for.
Flood your lexus dealers with requests for a manual on the IS350!!!!
Any updates? Did they give you an ETA? I was told if I want it for March I have to order now. I may wait for December to remember if there are going to be huge discounts, though. I just can't imagine what would take that long.
my quote (without taxes, etc) was 42355 (or thereabouts) 34875 base 250 AWD 590 Destination 3990 ML/NAV (more b/c of the DVD changers 2205 Luxury package (HID Xenons, etc)) 695 Sirius
still waiting for the dealer answer on whether the Sirius will be aftermarket installed on dash... I think that's tacky and currently a showstopper. if they tell me it's pre-wired and I can put it in later, may do that.
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I put a deposit down on a is 350 back in June on a pearl white with black interior but has not come into my dealer yet and they seem clueless when i ask they said they have to check the allocation reports to see when shipment would come in. Does anyone have input on how long i should wait or any idea when i should receive shipment???
From what I understand, they get the report every couple of weeks. I don't know how long it takes to arrive once the report comes out, but I do know that once mine hit the port it took a week just to get it to the dealer.
They should be able to tell you when the reports come out and they should be on top of it in terms of telling you what's available as soon as they get it. If you don't have that confidence in them, change dealers.
Lastly, I hear a lot about people leaving deposits. That's great, but if I were you, I would make sure that you contract for the car as soon as they get the report and vin number. Otherwise it's often first come first serve.
Please don't let us revisit this again.... BMW did NOT win. Did you consider a 1pt difference a win ???? Besides, if you simply add up the scores for each category you'll actually find that the scores are EXACTLY the same for the 330i and the IS350... This has been argued to death already...so lets move on - and - The review was clearly a sham
The magazine was Car and Driver. After reading them for even a short time, its obvious what the focus on: performance and handling. They do not factor in reliability, gas mileage, etc.
But yes, the BMW won. I can't believe the blinders on some people in this forum. Should they have said the IS won because it scored only 1 point less? Yeah, that makes more sense. Don't you think its far more likely that they messed up one of the numbers in the tabulated results (which when added show an actual tie) in the final print copy rather than them blindly looking at the totals and then writing the copy to match? Its really very simple: both are great cars with slightly different features and you pick the one that best suits you. But you can't whine about a performance oriented car magazine giving the nod to the BMW when it is widely accepted to be a slightly better handling car. This should not be a surprise. I'm sure Consumer Reports will have a completely different ordering of the cars... If you read the reviews in other magazine (not comparos) like Road and Track, AutoWeek, etc, you'll see the exact same story: they really like both, but the BMW has offers the better driving experience. I'm sure 90% of the people do not push their cars to the point of noticing 90% of the time, so its irrelevant for them.
But you can't call a review a sham just because it doesn't match your personal criteria for evaluating a car...
The problem (or not) with the back seat room probably has more to do with leg room than anything else. As I mentioned previously, I am of average height but have long legs. For me, the back seats are an issue. When I (and my wife, for that matter, who also has long legs) get comfortable in the car, there simply isn't much room in back.
As for the pricing, I honestly think that the base prices are quite reasonable. The real problem with the pricing is the "option packages". They do seem expensive but what really is the issue is that you can't get what you want a la carte. Unfortunately, it is close to an all or nothing situation with all Toyota and Lexus automobiles.
For me, I can deal with the above. The back seats are an issue but I'm getting my IS350 fully-loaded. But for others ... YMMV.
Sorry for breaking my message up: I also wanted to address the topic of C&D bias. A quick look at their web site shows the following recent comparos: May 2005, BMW 530 places 6th! behind Infinity, Acura, Lexus, etc. In May 2003, the BMW M3 lost to the Audi S4. Also in May 2003, the BMW M5 lost to the Audi RS6, also in May '03 the BMW 760i lost to the Mercedes s600, and finally (I'm sick of looking these up), the BMW 745 lost to the Lexus LS430.
Thank you! Someone had to say it Some people just can't accept the 330i is a better performer than the IS350 ALL-AROUND, according to C&D anyways. Get over it, move on. The Lexus IS350 is very good in it's own rights. Just not steering, suspention, and over all feel. Lexus said that's what they wanted to do with the new IS; I think they mislead us. They made a very nice performance sedan that leans more to the luxury side. Alot of people are going to like that. Let's vote with our wallets.
I dont care who won. However, isn't many of the criteria used in evaluating vehicles by C&D subjective? Just a thought. Like most evaluations you can play with the numbers to get the desired results. Again, it doesn't matter to me. The IS is no longer on my list. Frankly, it isn't the C&D results that would sway me into buying any vehicle.
I believe the base prices are about $2000 too high for the IS 250 AWD. Much smaller and less capable car than the G35x for the same price. Much smaller and less capable than the TL for the same price. This should be slotted between the TSX and TL, or just below the G35, otherwise it may see a fate about on par with the SC430.
It is priced about the same or lower than the 325xi but those are overpriced as well.
Just my opinion of course, given my current buying priorities.
Sure, I would agree that every review is subjective. Consumer Reports doesn't care that much about handling at 9/10ths, they care much more about things like reliability, etc - to my mind, that is subjective as well. But I do not believe that C&D played with the numbers to get the BMW to win! I didn't look it up, but didn't the Inifniti beat the 3-series in the last comparo any way? And that list of other times the BMW lost doesn't make it look like they would be putting in any special effort to get the 3 to win.
I was really hoping for the BMW driving experience coupled with Lexus reliability (and to a lessor degree Lexus interior quality). It may be close, but the IS doesn't quite get there, IMHO. If there was a 350 w/ a manual transmission and sport suspension, it might be a different story. But the 250 just isn't quite a lively enough performer for my tastes, so I'll probably end up elsewhere... I think I linger around here because I'm still not completely convinced the IS couldn't do everything for me, as well as hoping for a press release on the 350 manual announcement scooped by one of the forum users...
Let's try not to get too caught up in C&D's testing methods, as that's not the subject of this discussion. Additionally, we've asked you to remember that this is NOT a comparisons discussion. The 2006 BMW 3-series vs. 2006 Lexus IS topic is a much better place for this type of conversation. Thanks!
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But you can't call a review a sham just because it doesn't match your personal criteria for evaluating a car...
The review was a sham because they did not use the brake distance for the test car for that review in the tabulation. The car spun out and nearly flipped during the brake test. They should have either used that distance for the tabulation (which would have placed the 330i at the bottom in such a tight contest) or simply disqualified the car as a face-saving measure. To use braking distance from a different car on a different date on different test road surface at different ambient temperature, when the final result was decided upon a single point, was what made the review a sham.
you make a good point regarding the braking test... i'd forgotten about that issue.
btw, as our host pointed out, it was my mistake posting in this forum about the relative merits of the IS and BMW - I thought I was in the other forum... doh!
Translation: Lexus didn't take it; must be a sham.
Another take: with all the slips, they still liked driving the 330 more.
Why do you care? The conversation was somewhat meaningful prior to the release of the car, but only because speculation was all we had. Now it's up to those shopping it to try it for themselves. So far we've gotten some pretty thorough reviews in here, with a lot of careful thought. It's like reading through the tirerack's reviews; digest them all with salt and see if they mean anything to you.
I voiced my disappointment in the specs months ago, but that's just e-paper, as is this forum. Only a moron would make any decision based on what gets typed into these threads.
Go drive. I will. Only then can I make any kind of informed decision.
with all the slips, they still liked driving the 330 more.
Why do you care?
Good question, why do you care? I'm not the one who brought up the C&D review. Thanks for putting everything into perspective. The C&D review is quite irrelevent, a point that I have been making all along . . . Thanks for your support.
"Should they have said the IS won because it scored only 1 point less? Yeah, that makes more sense."
Never implied that. Taken QUITE out of context out of what I said, "The review was a sham (having obvious bias towards BMW). I don't care if they win or not; I still like the car I like. However, it bothers me that some people are that biased in the first place. Whatever, it's all good.
The C&D Review AND this forum serve a valuable purpose, they provide input as to what drivers like and don't like about a certain vehicle. When that input is slanted one way or another to better serve their own purposes it creates false data. While I don't think anyone would actually purchase a vehicle solely on the merits of a magazine review or preferences in a forum, they might decide that one or another vehicle is not worth further investigation based on the cumulative data presented.
My personal case in point; I have driven SUV's for 10 years, I'm tired of the style and cumbersome performance of these vehicles, I'm looking seriously at the TL, CTS and now the IS. I've visited all of the forums involving these vehicles and I'm gathering the information necessary to make an informed decision based on my tastes (style,performance, luxury and price).
If C&D or any of you guys decide to throw me a curve, it could very well put one of my choices out of the running without further evaluation. What I'm saying is, if someone complains about tire wear on the CTS or torque steer on the TL or interior design on the IS I'm relying on this information to be factual so that I can make my decision based on fact. In general, the information presented in these forums has been helpful, but the C&D article was slanted and in some aspects deceptive.
"Another take: with all the slips, they still liked driving the 330 more."
This is my LAST post regarding this subject.
Translation: C&D liked the 330i so much more in its driving abilities that it clouded their judgement from conducting an unbiased test, in which cars that cannot run properly and fail tests win anyways.
I have nothing against their judgement of the IS 350, simply just what I stated above.
I like the pictures, opinions and performance specs, but beyond that how can you take their opinions so seriously when you look at all the ad revenue they take in. I am not saying that there is a bias toward any particular manufacturer, but you have to keep it in mind.
Besides, they do not weight the performance criteria like we do when we shop for cars. For example, I prefer a quieter car and a softer ride, but I like straight-line acceleration. They don't like VDIM, but my wife and I like it because it means I'm less likely to do any damage or hurt myself goofing around in the car.
Just because Car & Driver likes a car doesn't mean it's the right car for you, it means it's the right car for them.
"What I'm saying is, if someone complains about tire wear on the CTS or torque steer on the TL or interior design on the IS I'm relying on this information to be factual so that I can make my decision based on fact..."
Don't.
This is an opinion plant. The only "facts" of which any of us are aware are either published, to which you have access in many other places, or anecdotal.
I'm with britghtness. If lexus can make a 2+2 with a hardtop convertible, i'm sold. Brightness, have u heard any more details on this convertible? - when will this baby hit the lots? - Pricing? - Will it be available for the 250 or 250 AWD? - i'm guessing it's gonna be available when the current SC gets upgraded. Any word on when that will be?
Important thing to look for in those reviews is separation between contestants. There were natural 'breaks' in scoring with Lexi and BMW at top, TL and infiniti together, and then the others much lower. To me, this is far more representative of the cars than choosing one over another, especially when they have 25 points to subjective criteria like 'fun to drive' or 'gotta have it'. OTOH, the IS could have done much worse had back seat scoring been values much more than it was/is (5).
Given their performance bent, and Consumer report's practical bent, perhaps we should add the total ranking and divide by 2.
The review was a sham because they did not use the brake distance for the test car for that review in the tabulation.
Great point. It was absurd that they placed the car first even with all the problems and safety issues of ABS not working correctly.
Imagine you were on a test drive in the new 330i and the ABS had the same problem and you spun out of control and and crashed it. Assuming you survive, do you really think you would consider buying that car? I would be worried about buying a :lemon: . A bit of an extreme "what if" speculation, but you get the point. I guess that is why I enjoy reading both C&D and CR to get an idea of both areas I care about. Performance and Reliability. Both are important in my book and I try to stay practical but I still end up buying cars that are not that good in CR's book according to reliability. For example, I had an Audi TT and now have a Mini Cooper S. Both low on the list but they are sporty and fun to drive.
if someone complains about tire wear on the CTS or torque steer on the TL or interior design on the IS I'm relying on this information to be factual so that I can make my decision based on fact
But, it isn't "fact." It's just opinion/complaining.
"Fact" is the objective numbers (trunk volume, room in the rear floor pan, etc), and even some of the numbers (EPA milage, 0-60 times, HP, torque) are toyed with, misrepresented, or misunderstood to such an extent that they're not reliable in and of themselves (e.g. 306 HP in a IS350 is "different" than 350 HP in a Dodge Charger).
Unfortunately, the forums are just a sum of experiences and opinions (some formed by experience, some formed by sheer bias). You can rely on them, but beyond generating a little bit of concensus, it's not going to be a substitute for getting out there and testing what you want and making sure it fits you and what you want.
For example, I like the Nissan 350z. On paper, it's a great car. It's fast, it's nimble, etc. I was excited when I went to go test drive one. 15 minutes later, I still liked the car, but it made my big-patootie feel cramped and I hated that the power seat adjustment was grinding into my thunder-thighs. I decided then that it was the perfect car... for someone else. I also passed on S2000s, Miatas and other nice cars when I was looking for a sports car, and settled on a Mustang GT simply because it fit me and made checks in all the boxes I wanted.
Back to the car at hand, I posted my experience earlier... the IS350 is great car and on paper meets a lot of my criteria, except for the lack of any visceral feedback from the car when it's being driven hard. To some folks, though, that's a positive. They want to see the world blur and then get out at the end of the trip without having their teeth shaken out. However, there's no fact anywhere in there except for the fact of what I prefer and perceive and the fact of what they prefer and perceive.
If you're looking at the CTS, IS, and TL... my only suggestion is to drive them all and form your own opinion. You may not feel the torque steer on the TL with your driving habits (I feel it, but my mom has never experienced it... she doesn't slam on the accellerator unless she's already in motion). You may not like the interior of the IS at all and may wonder what is everyone is praising it about. You may not have tire wear issues with the CTS if you're not driving like a maniac, or it the car may have so many other positives to you that you don't care about replacing the tires a little early.
All statements here are very much slanted, though. And we don't have an editor. Unless we get potty-mouthed.
The last I heard was Spring/early-summer as a 2007 model. Pricing is guesstimated at $45k for the 350. Not sure about if there is 250 or AWD. The info on 350 seems believable as BMW is doing the same thing next year (hard top convertible coupe), as well as Volvo and VW at lower price points. Interesting times we are living in indeed ;-)
Even the professional opinion is just that. You may be able go by track record sometimes on those to narrow a potential field of a few marginals because your observations and theirs have tallied. I can't remember if it was C&D or R&T that had the S60 in their comparo, but based on their known slant, my experience with their picks, and my experience (however thin) with Volvos, plus my fairly low level of interest in the car in the first place, it's off my list. But regard how it was more or less not on it to begin with, more an item of interest. No way I'd let a magazine review dictate a decision on a real contender, unless it was seriously panned by a strong majority.
They said that the rankings were heavily biased toward sport and performance, and would have been very different with luxury factored in more. The IS was definitely the luxury champ.
When testing a car like the IS350, are the magazines paddle-shifting when they clock it or letting the trannie do it alone? Not that it matters - I'm just curious.
Do your own math, not conceivable weighing assigned to the three sets of nummbers quoted (0-60, 1/4 mile and 60-0) could possibly lead to the ranking cited. BTW, the automatic IS350 dusted the 6MT 330i in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile.
Letting it go the route itself would be faster than the paddles, gstois. The only thing "F1 inspired" about the paddles are, sadly, the little paddles themselves!
Again, they're not for rowing, really. The principal advantage is in being able to select, set and hold a gear in more active driving, so that the tranny isn't hunting and shifting at inappropriate moments. On my gen1, it also allows you a 2nd gear start.
It's a step over a standard automatic, but in no way approaching a manual in that regard.
On that aspect of the car, I think you have little to worry about (after your break-in period of course; you are being a good boy aren't you?). If you're plannning on going for pink slips in the hills, OTOH, you'll want the paddles, although a DSG would be better!
Comments
Please don't let us revisit this again.... BMW did NOT win. Did you consider a 1pt difference a win ???? Besides, if you simply add up the scores for each category you'll actually find that the scores are EXACTLY the same for the 330i and the IS350...
This has been argued to death already...so lets move on
I am beginning to think that with the telescoping wheel and driver seat preferences, the true size of the back seat will remain a matter of opinion. I find that I can get comfortable both close up with my knees more bent and further back with my legs more straight. I haven't even set my seat memory after 3 days because I can't decide which I like better. There is no question though that if a tall driver wants to sit flat, it will be no fun behind him. However, I think this will be true no matter what car we are discussing in this class.
This is pretty much the car of my dreams (I have a lot of dreams
I can't believe I haven't even test-driven this car.
Winnipeg sucks.
At least I am invited to the unveiling (Yea, no kidding, how late can they get?) on the 27th. I can just taste it now; scallops, seared tuna, proscuitto hors d'hourves... mmmm... IS 350...
Lexus did miss the mark on pricing, though. Let them take advantage of the buzz that's been created and come springtime, I think the dealers will be more flexible on pricing. I just can't imagine laying out 44K on this car. 40K perhaps...
1. Drive: great. Mine has 19" custom wheels and summer tires. The ride is firm but not harsh. Most the driving is in local and never feel jarring when over a section of broken pavement. The steeling is quicker than all Toyota and Lexus I have driven and feel is not like true sport car but direct. Sterring effort is toward heavy side, unlike other lexus. I guess the ride with standard 18" wheel and tires will be better but less grip at turn. I like it more than other Lexus and all Acura. Less ideal compare to BMW 325i I test drove a week ago. The manual gear selection is quick and smooth, and allow you to push to the red line instead of shift up automatically. Nice, very nice. It basically eliminate the need for manual transmission except the feel and clutch paddle. My 2 cents.
2. Exterior: I like it a lot. Clean and aggressive line. The tails is alittle out of the scheme but the LED tail light looks cool. It's not as elegant as GS nor as aggressive as BMW 3s.
3. Interior: Definitely better than the old I300 it replaces but not as great as the GS. Here is where you can see the price cutting on the material but not bad at all. My test drive car doesn't have the NAV, but the standard LCD display looks cool. The leather seat is very comfortable with good side support during aggressive driving and the quality of the leather is top rated to meet Lexus standard. For BMW 3s, you need to get 330i or upgrade for 325 which is plastic but feel like leather.
4. Spacing: Here is the weakness of the IS. When my friend who is 6'2" and push the seat almost all the way back, my 5'10" body with regular seam can only sit tight and upright with knee barely touch the back of front seat. Good thing is the surface of the seat back is contour and with good padding. And the toe space is good. The back seat definitely only suitable for two, not three. The Bimmer 3s has more leg room but tighter on toe space.
Overall, the total package is excellent and the price is comparable if not cheaper. I think Lexus did do the homework and I am giving them a good grade. For whom like Lexus quality and value, but demand better driving dynamic and don't need lots back seat room and trunk space, the IS is close to a winner and reserve a test drive. Compare to BMW 3s, I would take the IS250 over 325 mainly for the dislike of the iDrive in the 3's. I don't live in the area with lots of curvey roads either so the IS is sporty for me in daily driving. I agree it's a tough call to pick a winner. It could be easier if the German manufacturer didn't fall in love with the iDrive.
That day will come soon enough.
I woulda.
DL
I'm debating between m35 and IS350 as mentioned earlier. If they made an Is350 in stick anytime soon, it would make my pick that much easier. Yes it is a different class and size but price isnt too off. One thing for sure, both cars have the luxury, performance, and reliability I'm looking for.
Flood your lexus dealers with requests for a manual on the IS350!!!!
If so, is it a nice color or just plain DIFFERENT!
my quote (without taxes, etc) was 42355 (or thereabouts)
34875 base 250 AWD
590 Destination
3990 ML/NAV (more b/c of the DVD changers
2205 Luxury package (HID Xenons, etc))
695 Sirius
still waiting for the dealer answer on whether the Sirius will be aftermarket installed on dash... I think that's tacky and currently a showstopper. if they tell me it's pre-wired and I can put it in later, may do that.
jC
Let's try to remember that this isn't a BMW comparison discussion, but we do have one:
2006 BMW 3-series vs. 2006 Lexus IS
Thanks, all!
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They should be able to tell you when the reports come out and they should be on top of it in terms of telling you what's available as soon as they get it. If you don't have that confidence in them, change dealers.
Lastly, I hear a lot about people leaving deposits. That's great, but if I were you, I would make sure that you contract for the car as soon as they get the report and vin number. Otherwise it's often first come first serve.
This has been argued to death already...so lets move on
- and -
The review was clearly a sham
The magazine was Car and Driver. After reading them for even a short time, its obvious what the focus on: performance and handling. They do not factor in reliability, gas mileage, etc.
But yes, the BMW won. I can't believe the blinders on some people in this forum. Should they have said the IS won because it scored only 1 point less? Yeah, that makes more sense. Don't you think its far more likely that they messed up one of the numbers in the tabulated results (which when added show an actual tie) in the final print copy rather than them blindly looking at the totals and then writing the copy to match? Its really very simple: both are great cars with slightly different features and you pick the one that best suits you. But you can't whine about a performance oriented car magazine giving the nod to the BMW when it is widely accepted to be a slightly better handling car. This should not be a surprise. I'm sure Consumer Reports will have a completely different ordering of the cars... If you read the reviews in other magazine (not comparos) like Road and Track, AutoWeek, etc, you'll see the exact same story: they really like both, but the BMW has offers the better driving experience. I'm sure 90% of the people do not push their cars to the point of noticing 90% of the time, so its irrelevant for them.
But you can't call a review a sham just because it doesn't match your personal criteria for evaluating a car...
As for the pricing, I honestly think that the base prices are quite reasonable. The real problem with the pricing is the "option packages". They do seem expensive but what really is the issue is that you can't get what you want a la carte. Unfortunately, it is close to an all or nothing situation with all Toyota and Lexus automobiles.
For me, I can deal with the above. The back seats are an issue but I'm getting my IS350 fully-loaded. But for others ... YMMV.
How biased are they again?
Some people just can't accept the 330i is a better performer than the IS350 ALL-AROUND, according to C&D anyways.
Get over it, move on. The Lexus IS350 is very good in it's own rights. Just not steering, suspention, and over all feel.
Lexus said that's what they wanted to do with the new IS; I think they mislead us. They made a very nice performance sedan that leans more to the luxury side. Alot of people are going to like that. Let's vote with our wallets.
I already did. 1 vote for the IS350 :P
It is priced about the same or lower than the 325xi but those are overpriced as well.
Just my opinion of course, given my current buying priorities.
I was really hoping for the BMW driving experience coupled with Lexus reliability (and to a lessor degree Lexus interior quality). It may be close, but the IS doesn't quite get there, IMHO. If there was a 350 w/ a manual transmission and sport suspension, it might be a different story. But the 250 just isn't quite a lively enough performer for my tastes, so I'll probably end up elsewhere... I think I linger around here because I'm still not completely convinced the IS couldn't do everything for me, as well as hoping for a press release on the 350 manual announcement scooped by one of the forum users...
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The review was a sham because they did not use the brake distance for the test car for that review in the tabulation. The car spun out and nearly flipped during the brake test. They should have either used that distance for the tabulation (which would have placed the 330i at the bottom in such a tight contest) or simply disqualified the car as a face-saving measure. To use braking distance from a different car on a different date on different test road surface at different ambient temperature, when the final result was decided upon a single point, was what made the review a sham.
btw, as our host pointed out, it was my mistake posting in this forum about the relative merits of the IS and BMW - I thought I was in the other forum... doh!
Another take: with all the slips, they still liked driving the 330 more.
Why do you care? The conversation was somewhat meaningful prior to the release of the car, but only because speculation was all we had. Now it's up to those shopping it to try it for themselves. So far we've gotten some pretty thorough reviews in here, with a lot of careful thought. It's like reading through the tirerack's reviews; digest them all with salt and see if they mean anything to you.
I voiced my disappointment in the specs months ago, but that's just e-paper, as is this forum. Only a moron would make any decision based on what gets typed into these threads.
Go drive. I will. Only then can I make any kind of informed decision.
Why do you care?
Good question, why do you care? I'm not the one who brought up the C&D review. Thanks for putting everything into perspective. The C&D review is quite irrelevent, a point that I have been making all along . . . Thanks for your support.
Never implied that. Taken QUITE out of context out of what I said, "The review was a sham (having obvious bias towards BMW). I don't care if they win or not; I still like the car I like. However, it bothers me that some people are that biased in the first place. Whatever, it's all good.
My personal case in point; I have driven SUV's for 10 years, I'm tired of the style and cumbersome performance of these vehicles, I'm looking seriously at the TL, CTS and now the IS. I've visited all of the forums involving these vehicles and I'm gathering the information necessary to make an informed decision based on my tastes (style,performance, luxury and price).
If C&D or any of you guys decide to throw me a curve, it could very well put one of my choices out of the running without further evaluation. What I'm saying is, if someone complains about tire wear on the CTS or torque steer on the TL or interior design on the IS I'm relying on this information to be factual so that I can make my decision based on fact. In general, the information presented in these forums has been helpful, but the C&D article was slanted and in some aspects deceptive.
This is my LAST post regarding this subject.
Translation: C&D liked the 330i so much more in its driving abilities that it clouded their judgement from conducting an unbiased test, in which cars that cannot run properly and fail tests win anyways.
I have nothing against their judgement of the IS 350, simply just what I stated above.
Besides, they do not weight the performance criteria like we do when we shop for cars. For example, I prefer a quieter car and a softer ride, but I like straight-line acceleration. They don't like VDIM, but my wife and I like it because it means I'm less likely to do any damage or hurt myself goofing around in the car.
Just because Car & Driver likes a car doesn't mean it's the right car for you, it means it's the right car for them.
Don't.
This is an opinion plant. The only "facts" of which any of us are aware are either published, to which you have access in many other places, or anecdotal.
Yes. I'm waiting for the hardtop convertible version of IS350 that is coming out next year.
- when will this baby hit the lots?
- Pricing?
- Will it be available for the 250 or 250 AWD?
- i'm guessing it's gonna be available when the current SC gets upgraded. Any word on when that will be?
Given their performance bent, and Consumer report's practical bent, perhaps we should add the total ranking and divide by 2.
Great point. It was absurd that they placed the car first even with all the problems and safety issues of ABS not working correctly.
Imagine you were on a test drive in the new 330i and the ABS had the same problem and you spun out of control and and crashed it. Assuming you survive, do you really think you would consider buying that car? I would be worried about buying a :lemon: . A bit of an extreme "what if" speculation, but you get the point. I guess that is why I enjoy reading both C&D and CR to get an idea of both areas I care about. Performance and Reliability. Both are important in my book and I try to stay practical but I still end up buying cars that are not that good in CR's book according to reliability. For example, I had an Audi TT and now have a Mini Cooper S. Both low on the list but they are sporty and fun to drive.
But, it isn't "fact." It's just opinion/complaining.
"Fact" is the objective numbers (trunk volume, room in the rear floor pan, etc), and even some of the numbers (EPA milage, 0-60 times, HP, torque) are toyed with, misrepresented, or misunderstood to such an extent that they're not reliable in and of themselves (e.g. 306 HP in a IS350 is "different" than 350 HP in a Dodge Charger).
Unfortunately, the forums are just a sum of experiences and opinions (some formed by experience, some formed by sheer bias). You can rely on them, but beyond generating a little bit of concensus, it's not going to be a substitute for getting out there and testing what you want and making sure it fits you and what you want.
For example, I like the Nissan 350z. On paper, it's a great car. It's fast, it's nimble, etc. I was excited when I went to go test drive one. 15 minutes later, I still liked the car, but it made my big-patootie feel cramped and I hated that the power seat adjustment was grinding into my thunder-thighs. I decided then that it was the perfect car... for someone else. I also passed on S2000s, Miatas and other nice cars when I was looking for a sports car, and settled on a Mustang GT simply because it fit me and made checks in all the boxes I wanted.
Back to the car at hand, I posted my experience earlier... the IS350 is great car and on paper meets a lot of my criteria, except for the lack of any visceral feedback from the car when it's being driven hard. To some folks, though, that's a positive. They want to see the world blur and then get out at the end of the trip without having their teeth shaken out. However, there's no fact anywhere in there except for the fact of what I prefer and perceive and the fact of what they prefer and perceive.
If you're looking at the CTS, IS, and TL... my only suggestion is to drive them all and form your own opinion. You may not feel the torque steer on the TL with your driving habits (I feel it, but my mom has never experienced it... she doesn't slam on the accellerator unless she's already in motion). You may not like the interior of the IS at all and may wonder what is everyone is praising it about. You may not have tire wear issues with the CTS if you're not driving like a maniac, or it the car may have so many other positives to you that you don't care about replacing the tires a little early.
All statements here are very much slanted, though. And we don't have an editor. Unless we get potty-mouthed.
Even the professional opinion is just that. You may be able go by track record sometimes on those to narrow a potential field of a few marginals because your observations and theirs have tallied. I can't remember if it was C&D or R&T that had the S60 in their comparo, but based on their known slant, my experience with their picks, and my experience (however thin) with Volvos, plus my fairly low level of interest in the car in the first place, it's off my list. But regard how it was more or less not on it to begin with, more an item of interest. No way I'd let a magazine review dictate a decision on a real contender, unless it was seriously panned by a strong majority.
Again, good post.
1) 330i
2) G35
3) IS350
The 330i and G35 were both 6MT.
0-60, 1/4 mile:
G35: 5.8s, 14.4s
IS350: 6.0s, 14.5s
330i: 6.2s, 14.9s
60-0:
G35: 116 ft
330i: 124 ft
IS350: 128 ft
They said that the rankings were heavily biased toward sport and performance, and would have been very different with luxury factored in more. The IS was definitely the luxury champ.
Again, they're not for rowing, really. The principal advantage is in being able to select, set and hold a gear in more active driving, so that the tranny isn't hunting and shifting at inappropriate moments. On my gen1, it also allows you a 2nd gear start.
It's a step over a standard automatic, but in no way approaching a manual in that regard.
On that aspect of the car, I think you have little to worry about (after your break-in period of course; you are being a good boy aren't you?). If you're plannning on going for pink slips in the hills, OTOH, you'll want the paddles, although a DSG would be better!
Sorry for the stupid question in advance.