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Comments
Has any one had experience in towing a 2WD with a transmission lockout?
Any information about experience you have had would be appreciated
I am going to buy a suburban for the 1st time and would love people's opinions as to whether I will be satisfied with the towing power of the 5.3 liter or whether I go to the 3/4 ton and 6.0 or 8.1 liter. I am basically more interested in power than fuel economy and would go with the power if it were my car, but this is going to be my wife's kid hauler during the week, and don't want to subject her to a heavier duty ride of the 3/4 ton unless the 1/2 ton 5.3L is going to be a slug on the hills when towing. All comments from your experiences are appreciated.
I towed my Bass Boat last Thursday 405 miles, and I noticed that in the Tow/Haul position, it did not go into overdrive. Bass Boat and trailer weighs less than 3000 lbs and I have towed it in drive with a Tahoe, 3.42 rear end and my new 3/4 Suburban is a 6.0 engine and 4.10 rear end. I was told that I could tow in overdrive. With the Tahoe, 5.7 engine, I always towed in Drive. I also towed a 8000 lb Contender and trailer. (weighed it) I figured that the Suburban should have been in overdrive on flat hiway, doing 55/60 MPH. When I would take it out of Tow/Haul, the truck would shift to overdrive and stay there when I went back to Tow/Haul, even going over the overpasses, which I expected it to do. I tried the same proceedure and the same thing happened with my Contender (8000) load. Its almost like tricking the tow/haul in to overdrive. Has anyone else experienced this with a Chev/GMC 3/4 truck 6.0 engine?? I'm wondering if there is a problem with my shift points in Tow/Haul position. Any input apreciated. Skipjack
I eventually decided to go with Denali XL which provided the comfort of 1/2 ton (no leaf springs) for everyday driving with the 320hp of the 6.0L for towing. The 6.0L in the Denali has 20 more hp than the 6.0L in the 3/4 due to a diffent exhaust and intake manifold. The Denali XL is rated to tow 8400 lbs which meets my needs. If you need more towing capacity you'll definitely need the 3/4 ton with the 8.1L (340hp) and significant more ft lbs of torque and a tow rating up to 12,000 lbs. Which BTW is the highest tow capacity for any SUV.
As far as Heatwave 3's comments on the Denali XL 6.0 and the 3/4 ton HP ratings, he is dead wrong!! Both have HP ratings of 320HP. The intake and exhaust are the same! You get a fancy intake cover and exhaust tip, that's all. Check the specs in the brochures or at you local dealer. They changed the heads on the '01 to aluminum, bringing the HP up to 320 from the '00's 300, it had cast iron heads.
Where towing is concerned,if you get a 3/4 ton with 3:73 rear gears, like mine, you can tow up to 10K pounds so there is an in between. The Denali XL is rated at 8400 pound because of the rear coil springs. The other thing about the Denali XL is it has autoride and it rides about the same as a regular 1/2 ton w/ autoride, the towing cap. on a regular 1/2 ton is lower because of the 5.3 L engine and trans, combo.
In the Denali XL you are also locked into the automatic 4WD, if you want to go into 2WD you can't, there is also no 4WD low to help you out of a real jam or tow up a steep incline.
I don't really like the 8.1L engine. It is just a warmed over, stroked out 454 with a new intake,and ignition system. If you opt for that motor you HAVE to get autoride. One other thing about the 8.1L engine that I am not comfortable with is the throttle by wire system. There is no cable on the thing at all, your pedal is a switch that tells the COMPUTER to open the throttle blade. The pedal feels funny too. I am very sceptical about this "new" technology, they tried it on the diesels about 5 years ago and it flopped. One positive note about the 8.1 is that the new 5 speed automatic should be available as an option in 2002 8.1L equiped vehicle, be it truck or SUV. That should greatly improve fuel economy. It is the required trans. on the new diesel coming is 2002 as well.
I am actually a big fan of the 3/4 as I owned Chevy 2500 Sub's from '85 (350ci - 3.73) and '92 (454ci - 4.10). Both Silverado's and each one was better than the previous one so I am confident the new 3/4 generation is even better.
One thing I found since I owned both vehicles for relatively lengthy periods of time was that the suspensions got harsher over time. My unproven suspicion was that the rear leaf springs stiffen as they age giving a bouncier ride when unloaded.
If the primary use is heavy towing, you simply can't beat the 3/4. However I do believe you will trade off riding comfort in the long run based on long term experiences with 2 of them, which may not be a big deal if your Yukon XL is not a daily commuter. My view is that if you can have the power of the 6.0L with the comfort and handling of the 1/2 you have the best of both worlds.
I wanted more comfort for routine trips with as high a tow capacity for boating season as possible and the Denali XL fit the bill (Also as I age, the creature comforts have become more important than raw towing capacity and the Denali comes with more of them). As a side note, many on this site have expressed disappointment in the sound system of the standard Yukon's, by comparison the 250watt Bose in the Denali is tremendous.
BTW, the Denali comes with a 3.73 rear end the same as the 3/4 6.0L. Just to clarify, the Denali has permanent AWD with a limited slip rear differential which is significantly different from an automatic 4wd. There is a great discussion on the differences under a different topic in this forum. Having alot of experience with two previous generations of GM HD 4wd over 16 years, I can honestly tell you that you would never go back to a normal 4wd after driving this new AWD system unless you did back country driving and needed the 4wd low alternative.
As for all out towing power, the 3/4 with the 8.1 engine is the clear choice. However, your 2500 pound boat is easily towed by the half-ton and given the "normal" use of hauling kids around it might be your best bet. If you are worried about the 5.3 having enough starch to pull the boat up long grades, consider the 6.0 liter in the Denali XL. Here you are getting the 1/2 ton ride with the larger engine. Although you will pay a premium for this vehicle, I'm hearing that dealers are making good deals.
That having been said, you really owe it to yourself to try the 3/4 ton with 8.1 and Autoride. I continue to be amazed at the ride quality. I certainly don't share jgmilberg's view of this engine. It is turbine smooth, quick off the line (I have a hard time keeping my foot out of it), and a blast to drive. This latest version of the "rat" motor is a major improvement on a reliable, powerful workhorse that has proven itself for decades.
Sometimes new technology is not the right answer. GM decided against multiple overhead cams and other trick stuff and stayed with pushrods for the latest Corvette engines. These engines are the basis for the "small block" engines in GMs SUVs.
Haven't noticed any pedal feel problem with the throttle by wire. And anyone who thinks that having a throttle cable puts the driver in total control of his engine is unaware of the computer control of nearly every engine/transmission parameter. Fly by wire has been the norm for modern aircraft for years. (In the F16, for example, there isn't a single cable connecting the pilot to the control surfaces. It's all electronic.) Drive by wire is the logical next step. Look for brakes to be done this way next.
Skipjack, how does the 6.0 compare to the 5.7 in your tahoe for towing your 3000 lb boat up long hills?
However, this is going to be mostly my wife's vehicle, so I don't want to be too selfish about its configuration. I test drove a Denali XL last weekend and was not that impressed with the power. I suppose it was ok. But my opinion is that if I'm going to spend the extra cash to get more power, I might as well get the 8.1. But if the 5.3 will do the trick for a 2500 lb boat and not piss me off too much on the hills, and the suspension will be better for my wife, then I'll just cut a great deal on a 1/2 ton off the lot.
Based on lbs/hp the Denali should be "quicker" as the 2500 weighs more than the 1500. I believe the 0-60 times will bear that out. There is still no replacement for cubic inches however, if maximum towing capacity is what you need since ft lbs of torque is what matters (455ft lbs - 8.1L vs. 365 ft lbs - 6.0L)
re: mileage: after 3500 miles, I'm averaging 11.4 mpg, mostly freeway, 3.73 rear end. Gotta say I love this car/truck, _vast_ improvement over my '95 2500/454. Only problem is that my wife wants one now!
You spoke about the rear leaf vehicles getting stiffer with age, this is partially true, as the leafs get older they tend to bond/rust together, making for a stiffer ride. The experience I have had with coil spring rear suspension is only with cars, but it holds true with all coil spring cars. Over time the rear end starts sagging and after about 5-7 years the weight carring capicity will slowly get lower. I am not sure if GM has worked that one out yet. I can say without a doubt the coil springs are a better ride than the leafs.
I have had my XL for about 3 months and have not noticed a cold air problem on the passenger side, although I am not over there. Do you have the same problem that the other XL owners are complaining of in your Denali XL?
I do agree with you on the stereo, a totally different animal in the Denali XL. The bass from the sub really stands out where it needs to be and the highs from the A-pillar mounted tweets is outstanding!! I have been considering speaker upgrades to aftermarket 3 ways in mine, the factory dual cones are just too muddy. I am also considering a sub upgrade with a possible amp to give it the punch it lacks.
The engine however is old technology and new technology combined, they took the best, in my opinion, ignition system and put it on an old design. I beleive the design is proven and relaible from a mechanical standpoint, but that throttle thing just brings back memorys of when audi's were flying through walls from unexpected acceleration. I didn't deny the power output of the motor,GM makes all of the cars come off the line very controlled, it is in the programming of the thing to save on gas. I did not try to torque it up and take off. There is never a replacement for displacement, and that motor has it and the power to prove it. I was slightly dissapointed to see that they just didn't use the 502, oh well, guess the general has it's reasons. Besides i guess 494CID is close enough.
The XL I test drove had a really spongy feel to it and the motor responded kind of slow when you try to give it a couple of quick revs. Not as snappy as the 6.0 from an rpm point of view. It was a first run 8.1 and they may have fine tuned it out by the time you had gotten yours.
The ride quality is amazing and the power transfer from fron to back at takeoff is really good with the 8.1, and the 6.0. I think one of the determining factors for me was the mileage, the dealer said he was only getting 9.5 gpm on his demo and that really got me. Not sure if you saw my other posting but I live in Michigan and last year in the summer we really got nailed with gas prices, in my area they got to $2.47 a gal, while less than 50 miles away the price was $1.99/gal. Now that I see people getting 11.5 - 12 mpg, I may have taken it more seriously. I was getting around that with my old van, and it wouldn't have been a big change. Hell I may have even waited for the 5 speed auto they are going to make available with the 8.1 next year, that should bring it up to around 13 mpg. I am a power crazed lunny any way, just needed to keep it grounded when it came to operating cost.
5.3 L,autoride, etc and tow a 32' travel trailer and have loved the vehicle. Tows great -- does not seem to lose power in hills, etc. The tow/haul mode works very slick. Other Sub was a '96 w/350 -- this 5.3 seems to wind out quicker, but has good torque. I run about 65-70 when I tow and get 11-11.5 mpg --- much better than my '96. Hope this helps. Just be SURE to get the autoride option...
With throttle by wire one can insert the computer into the electronic connection between the the pedal and the throttle. In deciding how much to move the throttle, the computer can consider many more parameters than simply the pedal position. Among these are current gear, the speed at which the pedal was depressed, engine speed, whether a wheel is slipping (from the ABS data) and a host of other parameters. It is just one more way to fine tune the way the vehicle responds to the driver's desire and the situation.
The only objections I have heard voiced over the throttle by wire (other than your comment on pedal feel which I hadn't heard before and haven't noticed myself) is that there could be a danger of a "run-away" engine. I suppose it could happen, but the fail safes built into the system are at least as good as the old throttle return spring we all knew in the days of carburetors. I can't be the only one who ever had that bad-boy spring fall/break off the front mount of a Rochester coke-bottle four barrel and have a wide open throttle. At least today we have electronic engine speed limiters to replace the mechanical speed limiters (rod thru the block or valve hitting piston) of the old days. And in the end one can always turn off the engine.
I had heard about the "spongy" feel of the 8.1 versus the 6.0 in this forum and others. I bought my Suburban site-unseen and was nervous about it. However, I haven't noticed anything of the sort on my truck. As a reformed drag-racer (reformed means: "who can afford this anymore?") I am sensitive to throttle tip in and other such stuff. It leaps off the line just fine for me. If it hadn't, I'm quite certain that our friends at HyperTech will soon have a reprogammed computer control available to undo GMs socially responsible tuning.
Surely you know, BTW, that Audi was cleared of all blame on the "unintended acceleration' episode. Turns out it was driver "pedal confusion", pressing hard on the accelerator to get the vehicle to stop.
Couldn't agree with you more on the ride of the 2500s. I put this off to Autoride and would strongly recommend that anyone getting the 3/4 include Autoride on their shopping list.
Your experience with the 4wd auto vs. awd is interesting. All of my previous 4wd experience did not include a 4wd auto mode. It would seem that 4wd auto gives a similar effect to awd, however I would be interested if anyone knows what the power bias is front and rear between GM's 4wd auto mode and the new AWD?
You may want to check into the sound system upgrade carefully as I recall many posts in the Spring of last year where owners were trying many changes including preamps, different speakers and various other strategies to improve the sound, without much success. Good Luck on the sound upgrade, you may want to post for this forum with any success achieved.
As another side note, the trip computer and radio controls on the steering wheel have turned out to become routinely used in everyday driving and would be sorely missed. Seems strange they don't offer it as a upgrade to the Yuokon's, although I suppose its a bunch of features like these that move people like me into the upgraded Denali.
GM's new permanent AWD system splits the power 35/65 in no-slip conditions. I believe the torque split ratio can vary from this figure though, depending on the amount of slippage there is.
Drew
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One thing I really wanted was a disc changer and that's what you got in the DXL, what I really like about it is it is controlled by the head unit not an outside controller. There are a few companies out there with converters that plug into the factory head unit (ie: Kenwood,Alpine), but if you have OnStar you can not use thier converters unless you totally disconnect OnStar, I haven't needed to use the OnStar feature yet but if I did I would like to know it is there. I will have to go with an aftermarket with controller if I decide it is a real nessesity. I do however have plans to change the factory remote tape deck to a cd player, if it is possible, and get the correct bezel to match(cd is a little wider). The 2000 model had a tape player in the head unit and a cd remote in the console, so it should work. I have no tapes and absolutely no use for the tape deck at all. I also hate having something in the vehicle that never gets used and takes up space, my feeling is if you don't want it at least let the customer delete it instead of ramming it down the throat of the consumer. With the rear seat audio controls a cd player would be a better choice for the rear passengers that want to listen to their own thing.
Where the audio upgrade is concerned, all I want to acomplish is get the highs in there. The two and three way speakers should do the trick. When we start talking bass, all of my previous cars/trucks have had a sub and amp installed in them by me. I am not sure about how GM did it so some more reasearch is in order. I do know that the speaker can be upgraded to an aftermarket one without much problem, it is a standard 8" sub, what I need to find out is what type of enclosure, if any, is used, how much depth is behind it, and if a louder speaker will just cause rattles. The amp shouldn't be a big deal, just something to get it to jump a little, no giant 600 watt deal, just something small 50W - 100W or so.
I use the factory harness connectors on the speakers, you can get them from your local car audio place, it just snaps into the original plug and provide regular speaker connectors on the other side, the really nice thing about these is that it doesn't void the warranty. It also makes it easy to add on an amp for the sub, all you need then is the power wires. Sounds a lot easier than it is, it is really worth having a pro install the door speakers 'cause if they screw up the door pad they gotta pay for it! Just make sure to specify those adapters, don't let them hack up your wires!! I highly doubt yo will be doing any upgrading to your system in the DXL, but it is a word of advise if you should happen to blow one, or for another car/truck you may have.
What do you mean that the 5.3 seems to wind out quicker?
But where there is a will there is a way and I am sure someone has been successful in a sound upgrade in the Yukon. Is there any reason the radio from the Denali couldn't be purchased and swapped for your current unit? The more I listen to the Bose the more I am thrilled with it. To my ears it has a more powerful bass with crisper details than the systems I have had in a BMW 740iL or a 535i.
You might not get the full effect that the Denali has with the extra speakers, but I would bet the sound would be substantially better than it is today with a simpler conversion if the wiring harnesses are the same for both vehicles.
I had Boston Acoustic separates for the front, BA coaxials for the rear doors, and a JL Audio 10 inch sub woofer installed in the center armrest.
We put in 2 Xtant amps: 4 x 50 watts and 1 x 120 watts where the old subwoofer was in the back.
For the head unit I purchased a Pioneer CD player, the primary motivator here was that the Pioneer fits the odd sized opening in the dash.
The install shop offered to connect a powered speaker to OnStar so that that service could be maintained. I have never used OnStar in 42 years, so I took a pass on that.
Total cost of the upgrade $3,200.00 installed. If I shopped the internet and did the work myself, I think I could have cut that cost in half.
The system sounds great! The subwoofer doesn't send ripples through the pavement, but it certainly fills the truck with plenty of bass.
Lumpman- No never found any cargo door wipers, if they had them I am sure you would've seen them on the conversion vans by now. I had 2 fullsize Dodge vans one with two cargo doors on the back and the other with one big door and window in the back. Now that I have the XL with the lifgate and wiper, would never get one without a wiper again. Not to mention the pillar that is between the windows is a real pain, I got bitten by a phone pole or two that got hidden in the space between the windows, and the constant cleaning was annoying. I never thought of it much until I got my XL but looking back I was stopping once a day in he winter to clean the back window(s). I think if you hold out for a liftgate you will be much happier. I think you will like the new style liftgate vs. your old tailgate setup or cargo doors.
Anybody have any insight into the problem? I would really appreciate any information about known problems with the radio reception or if anyone else is having similar problems. Kind of hard to stomach paying so much for the new truck and having such a poor stereo unit. :-(
TIA,
Alan
The interesting thing is there's not much to report. No floor shifter and no buttons to keep track of. Compared with my previous 4WD experiences in 3/4 Subs there is no sensation of being in 4wd. The car just has substantial grip in even the slipperiest conditions with no drivetrain whining or the feel of power transfering from one end to the other. It simply gives you a strong sense of confidence based on the traction in turns and acceleration even in slippery conditions.
I guess thats the point of awd ... no muss, no fuss. As others have noted the only downside is the lack of a 4wd lo for serious off-road conditions which in my previous two subs I experienced twice in 15 years. My primary use is moving family and friends around, long road trip vacations and towing a boat. For those purposes I believe the awd best meets my needs.
Thanks
Tom
I think you would be fine with a high mileage '97 which has been well maintained. I would have it checked out by a trusted mechanic. You can expect the replace some mechanical components, but there is nothing extraordinary about this. My sense is the engine is good for 200K to 250K miles and the vehicle is quite robust. You will have to be patient with it at times since the reliability probably is somewhat lower than a brand new vehicle, but even my old '91 Suburban is ready to tow my camper 2000 miles without me losing any sleep.
Steve
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Would be happy to sell. Waiting for a 2001 to come in any day.
If a vehicle has been maintained according to the book, and your mechanic takes a good look at it, I wouldn't be afraid of a truck with 85000 miles on it.