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@benjaminh said:
I'm still reading some grim stories about VW reliability in regard to recent models. Over at driveaccord.net someone says they traded in a 2013 Passat TDI because the turbo blew in just a year. Parts availability is still issue, as it was the last time I took my Jetta to the VW service bay in 1999. Yikes. Glad I own a Honda. Any desire I had for the GTI is gone.
I did not know that. Seems a significant compromise. Was that just for weight reduction, or have they done something useful with the space saved? One of the benefits of good fuel economy is supposed to be range, right?
Our old Yukon, though a pig at 14 city, 19 mpg highway (downhill with a tailwind), carried 31 gallons, so could easily go 500 miles per tank on long road trips. Not that the people on board can survive 8 hours without stopping, but you can be more selective about when and especially where to stop, i.e., wait for the cleanest facilities. And even staying around town, I only had to buy gas every 3-4 weeks (if you go to the station that doesn't turn off the pump at $75...)
The Accord has a decent tank at 16 gallons or so. I'm going about 350-375 miles between fill-ups. Haven't had enough experience with the Pathfinder to say. 3rd tank beat the 2nd, but we've been 50/50 city/highway and still below the advertised city mpg. I'll give it time to "break in" before making a verdict. And the Big Mouse trip next month will be a real test.
I find it funny how many people think of gas mileage in terms of range. I asked a friend what kind of gas mileage he got in his new Sienna on their trip to New Mexico and he said, "About 350 miles a tank, only had to fill up once..." MPG evidently less of an issue than "MPT", for some.
Love the range of my Accord. Always over 500 miles. At 575 right now - with 40 miles of range left. I get close to 700 miles on long trips. Rarely put in $50 as gas is $3.19 now. The extra range means I can totally bypass cities with expensive fuel, or as long as I am within about 300 miles from home I don't have to refuel out of town. Good for the local economy.
@Michaell said:
Actually, my Elantra is the only NA engine in the family. Both the wife's CX-7 and the daughter's MINI Countryman have turbo engines.
I like the Elantra GT. It is the only Elantra with a chrome polished dual tip exhaust and that makes the car pop a little, and I know from friends and neighbors that the 2004's last a long, long time. Mr. Hyundai didn't offer 10 year 100,000 mailer warranties on his products anticipating to pay out all his profits as claims. Hyundai wants to beat Toyota and Honda. That is their goal..... period.
Stereos (especially subwoofers) can also be really heavy.
That is why I kept mine down to a box that was small enough to fit right between the shock towers. I would say My dual 10" MTX box weighs 25lbs max. The two amps weigh about 10 pounds. 4 stock speakers (total crap paper) weighed about a pound each., replaced by 4speakers weighing 1.5 to 2 pounds each.
So let's just say 40 pounds. I would say my new system is on the low and conservative type. About 550 watts RMS is all the power I wanted. I gotta tell you, playing Rush with a subwoofer is amazing. Having a truly good quality speaker system makes a huge difference. I had the Infinity system in my Jeep, as many vehicles do.... Bose does this as well of course, and unfortunately that usually means just adding a powered subwoofer.
With "A" pillar tweeters offered on even cheap cars like my moms Forte' EX, tossing in an 8" paper powered subwoofer and A lot of pretty badges are the only changes needed for most people to believe they have purchased a premium product, when all you get is a Chinese Amp and 1more paper speaker exchanged for lots more of your hard earned paper.
I see a lot of Minis on used car lots, more than I would expect. I always figured the reason was that they were either (a) troublesome or (b) a disappointment to live with. I suspect many were bought almost on impulse due to the cool factor, which can wear off quickly if the car is painful to live with.
@ab348 said:
I see a lot of Minis on used car lots, more than I would expect. I always figured the reason was that they were either (a) troublesome or (b) a disappointment to live with. I suspect many were bought almost on impulse due to the cool factor, which can wear off quickly if the car is painful to live with.
Well said.
I find them appealing too sometimes for their looks, as well as what I've read about their handling and fun to drive factor. And since it's engineered by BMW you can say, with some truth, this is the middle-class person's BMW. But with dependability dead last. Wow. Painful. I can imagine dropping it like a hot potato at some point. I've been burned enough in my life by bad cars to want to avoid holding something like that....
Vehicle
2013 MINI Cooper S 2dr Hatchback (1.6L 4cyl Turbo 6M)
Review
I'm a writer. It's what I do. I've gone looking for the words to say about this car, and I can't find them. I'm instead overtaken by gusts of anger, confusion, and a general bitterness that this prop, this four-wheeled thing parading as a car, has consumed me this wholly. Look elsewhere. Do not get this car. Do not. Get. This car. Just last week I racked up my twelfth (12th) service appointment in 15 months. MINI has dealt with almost every problem I've submitted, aside from the car running out of oil at 5k and a wheel bearing coming off, by repeatedly denying their existence. When they find a given problem, seven service receipts deep, they say it's "spec."
Favorite Features
The tweeters loudly crackling. The clutch screeching into first and second gears ("normal"). The high-pitched whine that follows the engine's revs in pitch. The window rolling down, after I pressed to roll it up. The lumbar of my seat has snapped and buckled in under my hefty 165lb frame. There's a squeak coming from paneling near the trunk an engineer said was "common." Yet it took them multiple visits to find it? ... I've got a few of 'em on YouTube, even.
Suggested Improvements
Burn, hate, bad, pain; many simple-minded, monosyllabic curses upon you, you terrible, terrible, terrible excuse for a car company."
You can find a review like that for almost any model. It's a pattern that's troublesome. That's why I like large surveys like CR. Back to topic, I loved my Nissan Maxima but did not buy another one. Only reasons: fuel economy and premium gas. Too early to tell after only one year but so far I love my Honda Accord. For me the perfect balance.
Um, mine doesn't seem to have that. Of course, mine is the base model with no options.
This is the model of which I speak. I saw it in the showroom at the Hyundai store across from my Kia dealer (bored during oil change) That was when I first found out that Hyundai makes 3 different models of Elantra' flavor. Is your daughters car a hatchback or sedan?
@benjaminh said:
And now back to good midsize cars. How many would buy theirs again?
I would buy two. One Optima EX for me and LX for my mother. Both with heated seats.
She bought the 2010 Forte' EX instead. It has never broke down and is still vault like when I take it in for service but it is SO low budge. She could care less. A/C and automatic plus some sort of radio and she is fine.
I hate her steering wheel. It is of such low quality I uttered "eeew" when I drove it a while back after getting out of mine.
She drove mine 3 weeks ago and wishes we both knew of the Optima's existence in late 2010, but we didn't.
The bottom line, is I would buy this car again. It is exactly what I wanted, and my mother would trade upfor the cushy ride.
@backy said:
Re the Sonata, probably not. Note that the curb weight of the Eco with the 1.6T is about the same as the SE with the 2.4L engine and 6AT. So it doesn't appear Hyundai did any special tricks on the Eco to lighten weight. They just used a smaller (turbo) engine with a 7-speed dual-clutch automatic.
Gosh we both have the exact same Powertrains. Your SE and my EX are equally matched and made in almost every way. If they got married I guess the model would be SE-X. LOL,
Would you buy your Sonata again? Do you look forward to driving it and is it still as nice top look at as the day you bought it?
@Michaell said:
Wow .. just wow. My daughter has had two MINIs now, and only one unscheduled trip to the dealer between them.
She must have gotten ones made on a Wednesday....
Sorry, no mid-sized sedans in my stable. I had a Saturn L300 for most of the 00's, however.
Wasn't the L300 some sort of Opel or Vauxhall re-badge to give Saturn more products. I actually don't know and I owned a 92 SL2 white with than leather. I liked it except for the oil slick produced from the exhaust. Some sort of Valve seal issue. GM dealer said "within spec if less than 2.5 quarts a MONTH. Mine burned ONLY 2. I drove the crap out of it with many long trips to Canada and to South Carolina, Erie PA, Buffalo. It was a good car, and I believe the engine was "within spec", but every time I floored it thick black smoke pour from the exhaust. See, that's what I hate about the "Big three" meaning American cars. It was ALWAYS something that didn't work right. Not so with the Asians for the most part. That is why they almost killed our domestic market. Then one of my friends showed up in a brand new $5,000 Hyundai Excel. It was, for a kid in th 11'th grade, an awesome little car. It was better than my American [non-permissible content removed] box in almost every way... we all openly laughed about it, but secretly we thought it was a good little car. The Honda CRX too. See, right before these cars.....
.........I remember an America full of Cavaliers, Sunfires, Sunbird's, Cutlass Ciara's, Buick Skyhawk, Ford Granada's, LTD's Skylark, hell anything with Sky in front of it., (owned 2, ).One burned to the ground outside my girlfriends house, blowing out windows when the tires popped. The car would not run making a left turn, so being a broke 16 year old I just found a way to drive everywhere with right turns!. The fuel line was caught on something, then leaked and ignited in her driveway. I hopped in and got it away from the houses wand ran for the safety of the porch, then when things started exploding we realized our safety was not at all relative there and retreated to the house looking out the window. It burned 2 inches of asphalt off of the ROAD. Very, very bad car. I had an 84 T Type than was very nice though, then there were cars I can barely remember. I had a 87 Olds Tornado Trofeo' whose engine didn't like each others parts so it exploded. I had a $500 beautiful 1990 Cutlass low mileage beauty with the 3.3 liter 160 hp motor. I had it three weeks and was T boned in DC. I hate driving in DC. It is a totally different world from suburban VA.
I tell you guys I have owned over 20 cars, and I hope for 20 more, because I just love the damned automobile in almost every format.
@cski said:
Wasn't the L300 some sort of Opel or Vauxhall re-badge to give Saturn more products.
@ab348 said:
It had the Saturn plastic body so it was more than a rebadge but it was an Opel platform as I recall.
Yeah, the L-series was a cousin to some Euro-GM cars.
Or, as I liked to say, "US depreciation with Euro parts costs".
I had mine for 7+ years and 95,000 miles. It had it's issues - two body control modules failed, at $600 per. Had to rebuild the front brakes at 50K - rotors and calipers - for another $1200.
$25,000 new and I got $3000 in trade for it on the daughter's first MINI.
LOL. When I went searching for the one I saw,up popped 2 million pages of aftermarket Elantra dual exhaust kits. I was like ....is that what I saw ?
No. I clung to the hope that I did see GT and dual tip on the same car. But it was not to be. intake.
I confused two models into 1- but all I remembered was the GT label and a chrome exhaust dual tip. Now I know.
Hey on the Mini Countryman guy that was all pissed....there are still bad apples, and mixed with a half crazy [non-permissible content removed]-sapien, out pops crazy letter's about cars falling apart right in front of our eyes, fresh from the dealer who stole our money. Or the "I'm gonna get you and ruin your good name by exaggerating low quality issues and uncaring dealers. Who knows. I see Mini's all the time. Always clean and with a happy enough looking GIRL driving them.
There is no way I could fit in one. My father-in-law bought one as soon as they came out with the supercharged engine. He sold it in under a year. After piloting F-4's in the Corp's it's hard to get scary speed like that again for realistic dollars. Then he got his BMW Motorcycle, never rode it, and now happily drives a Jeep Liberty of all things? Uggghh
Well, I leased it, for 3 years, $47 a month, nothing up front. For a deal like that (trading in a beat-up 2009 Sonata GLS), yes, I'd do it again if I were looking for a mid-sized sedan. But my wife's next vehicle will probably be a small SUV, as she needs a higher entry/exit. I do look forward to driving it, especially on longer trips as it's a nice highway cruiser, and especially in winter with the heated seats. And I still like its looks, in red/camel.
@cski said:
Would you buy your Sonata again? Do you look forward to driving it and is it still as nice top look at as the day you bought it?
@benjaminh said:
I'm still reading some grim stories about VW reliability in regard to recent models. Over at driveaccord.net someone says they traded in a 2013 Passat TDI because the turbo blew in just a year. Parts availability is still issue, as it was the last time I took my Jetta to the VW service bay in 1999. Yikes. Glad I own a Honda. Any desire I had for the GTI is gone.
You know, I saw on the science channel on "How do they do it?" That VW has a HUGE fully computerized and automated parts hub that is quick and accurate. I guess if nothing is in the fancy bins for the robots to go collect then there is no part available. I never heard of problems getting parts for a VW just stung by the price.
@backy said:
Well, I leased it, for 3 years, $47 a month, nothing up front. For a deal like that (trading in a beat-up 2009 Sonata GLS), yes, I'd do it again if I were looking for a mid-sized sedan. But my wife's next vehicle will probably be a small SUV, as she needs a higher entry/exit. I do look forward to driving it, especially on longer trips as it's a nice highway cruiser, and especially in winter with the heated seats. And I still like its looks, in red/camel.
Wait, did you say $47 a month for 3 years and no money down? Holy cow.
On another thread someone was looking to replace their 20 year old Accord with a car for less than 5k. The choices listed were things like an Acura and a Lexus from c. 2000 with 150k miles. One of their biggest goals was low maintenance costs. I said I didn't think any of them would be low maintenance, and then trotted out the idea that in the long run (c. 10 years) new can be cheaper than used. For possible interest and debate, here's the made up math for it:
"Say you got the 2000 Acura for 3200, but then spend c. 1500 a year for repairs and maintenance. Perhaps that sounds high to you. And maybe it is. But go to the Edmunds.com true cost to own feature, and plug in a somewhat older luxury car. The oldest Acura TL for which they have estimates is a 2008. And some years they are estimating that this 8 year newer Acura can cost 1500 in repairs and maintenance. And so for a 2000 I think that might be a fair guess.
Anyway, you run it for 5 years x 1500 + purchase cost of 3200 = c. $10k
By the year 2019 it's likely to be dead or dying. Few cars really live well past 20 years imho. That's about the lifespan of a well-engineering and well maintained car in most cases.
So then you buy another 15 year old car. Prices have gone up, and so this 2005 Acura or Lexus costs 6k, but also needs 1500 a year to survive another 5 years. = another c. 13k
So in this scenario maybe you've spent on the used cars and repairs for maintenance c. $23k over ten years
What if instead you got a new Nissan Altima this year. My local dealer recently advertised a base 2014 for about $19k, down from the list of c.$23. Plus Nissan is offering 0 financing over 5 years.
In the short run you are paying more, and that might not be possible. But if it can be done it might work out financially in the long run.
First, maintenance and repairs are drastically less. These days a good new car gets by with relatively little for the first 10 years and 100,000 miles. It comes down to lots of oil changes (50 a pop), tire rotations, a new set of tires, a new set of brake pads, etc. The 2002 Honda Accord I kept for 95k miles had about $2000 maintenance (and no repairs) in the 8 years I owned it.
What if we said 3k for the Altima over ten years. That would add up to $22k.
At first it seems like it's about a tie: 23k for used and 22k for new.
But then factor in mpg. The 2000 Acura costs about $2950 a year to fuel according to the EPA. A 2014 Altima costs about $1750 to fuel. That's a difference of $1200 a year, which over a decade adds up to $12,000.
Suddenly new is looking like it can pay in the long run.
Then add in resale. By the time your 2000 Acura gets to 2019 my guess is that it'll basically go to the junkhard. Maybe you'll get a 1000 for it. Ditto for the next old car sold when it's really old. I've been there. They just aren't worth much. I donated my 1988 Olds 98 in 2008 to Goodwill.
So, maybe $2000 resale going old used.
By 2024, however, it's likely a 2014 Altima will still have some value. 7k? Who knows. But it'll still have some life in it.
Finally, there's your time and energy. I spent so many hours at mechanics and in garages with my old cars. It was not only expensive, but stressful, and just took a lot of time. What a waste. I wish, in retrospect, I'd just taken the plunge sooner to get a good new car, rather than limping along for years with a series of bad old cars that....Well, you get the idea.
Plus a new car is safer and has features a 2000 Acura or Lexus couldn't dream of, like bluetooth.
Just heard on the news Mini Cooper Countryman is the only car to get "Good" rating from IIHS out of 13 cars on the small frontal offset test or what have you.
So, there we have it. One man says junk, but reality is that the Cooper is as well made as any other new car IMHO.
I know tis is mid size, but did you guys know that the base engine on the mini is a 1.5 liter 3 cyl (turbo)?
Then the S is a 2.0 T, and you would be correct that they just add a cylinder.
It's nice to see such good crash test scores on the MINI. And now that they have BMW rather than Peugeot-engineered engines they are probably more reliable. It still seems like a compelling car to me, but ending up dead last in the JDP Dependability study seemed like a clear warning to informed consumers....
The sad thing about that new IIHS crash test is that the Mazda5 essentially failed. I used to own a Mazda5, but traded it in for our 2013 Accord. But four years ago when my sister was car shopping, I recommended the Mazda5 and she got it. Yikes. I forwarded the video to her with apologies and recommended she consider a Subaru Forester (if she still wants a wagon) or an Accord if she's willing to go sedan.
First, a correction to a couple of earlier posts from me re my lease on a 2013 Sonata: I traded in a 2007 Sonata GLS, pretty beat up, needing new tires... not a 2009.
Second, re the post on getting a new Altima for around $19k vs. a used car... on that same thought, within the past few days I've seen ads for both a new 2014 Optima LX and a 2014 Sonata GLS for $17k. Also I often see ads for base model Fusions for around $17k, even a little less with all incentives (some of which not every buyer may qualify for of course). All very nice cars at a great price. Of those, my pick would be the Optima LX. And another benefit of the Optima and Sonata is they have the 5-year bumper-to-bumper warranty, 2 years longer than on the Altima, Fusion, and most other mid-sized cars. And if you find the right dealer (as I did with my wife's Sonata), you might even get some goodies tossed in like free oil changes.
I don't think there was ever much debate among owners that a Mini Cooper was a sturdy, solidly-built little car. You can tell that from the first minute you sit in one and drive it.
The problem as I see it as an owner is that this "little, fun car" costs as much as a Porsche to drive and maintain. And that is not an idle comment--I've priced out maintenance and parts back to back and it's very close indeed.
I hope as MINIs get BIGGER, they get BETTER, and also cheaper to operate.
@akirby said:
I don't think you would average $1500/year in repairs unless that also includes tires and maintenance (which would also be required on a new car).
1500 might be on the high side, but yes that was meant to include everything—tires, maintenance, and repairs. And that's meant to be an average for a 15 year old luxury car. Obviously some years it might be just be a few hundred, but other years you might run into thousands of dollars.
Yeah, part of the dream of the MINI for me it's that it's almost the middle-class person's BMW. It is in terms of msrp, but in terms of maintenance and repairs Shiftright's experience seems like a warning at this point.
If you average it out for a number of years, and if you don't do your own work, or scrounge used parts, or buy the cheapest imaginable parts, I bet that's pretty accurate.
I mean, just brakes and tires is an easy $1K. Or overhauling an AC unit--that's pricey. Timing belts on a V-6 ain't cheap, and clutch work on a FWD car can be labor intensive.
@Mr_Shiftright said:
Well I have an early MINI, so the later turbo models are improved I am told. I don't expect the repair and maintenance costs to have improved however.
Have you started to think about your next car? And is a MINI on the list?
I am actively hunting for a clean Porsche 996 coupe, so no mid-size sedans in my immediate future unless I go for a second car. If I were shopping, I'd probably shop VW, BMW or (gasp) a Fiesta ST. (no wait, that last one isn't midsized, is it?)
But the cost of tires and brakes and regular maintenance is the same whether it's a new car or old car so you'd have to add some of that $1500 to the new car cost as well.
Sighted: Driving home with my daughter after shopping, we both notice a green 98 Camry bumbling down my main street. Well what made it weird you say? It was missing the hood, both fenders, 1 headlight and bezel assembly. In other words, 3/4 of a Camry.
My daughter said: maybe he could only afford 3/4 of a car. LOL,
true enough but with a used car you don't often start off even with a new car in terms of tires or brakes...you "inherit" a certain amount of wear and tear on both "expendables" like tires and brakes, and on regular components as well.
@akirby said:
But the cost of tires and brakes and regular maintenance is the same whether it's a new car or old car so you'd have to add some of that $1500 to the new car cost as well.
@akirby said:
But the cost of tires and brakes and regular maintenance is the same whether it's a new car or old car so you'd have to add some of that $1500 to the new car cost as well.
I tried to do that. But in my experience most old cars have somewhat worn brakes and tires. They often need to be replaced in the first year or so of ownership. A new car is free of that for about the first 5-6 years. in 2002 I bought a new Accord LX. Aside from lots of oil changes, tire rotations, etc., the main things needed were a new set of tires at about 60k miles and a new set of brake pads. No repairs were needed in c. 95,000 miles of ownership. It didn't even need a tune-up. I think the total for maintenance following the factory schedule was about $2000 over 8 years, including the tires and brake pads.
One word for the old vs. new. Depends. It depends on the quality and condition of the used car. Some used cars come with new tires and brakes so you can't just automatically assume they will be an expense right off the bat. On the flip side, even newer cars have their problems.. I just read the other day that the new Chevy Silverado has had something like a recall a month for every month it's been out. Not expensive but surely a huge hassle. I would guess that some people have more time than money and on average a used car will be less expensive mainly because of the huge depreciation hit.
Now if you compared a low mileage 3 yr old used car to a new one the used car would win easily I think for cost of ownership over 5 years or more.
Now if you compared a low mileage 3 yr old used car to a new one the used car would win easily I think for cost of ownership over 5 years or more.
................................................................................................................................................................
Buying a new vehicle is one of the worst investments we could make financially. With there depreciation values , Bad roads , and drivers. Guys like us that buy every 3 or 4 years are the ones paying the price. its lots of fun but gets you in the pocket. I know many people who will only buy a 3 or 4 yr old vehicle. They are the ones saving money.. Buying a 3yr old Bmw, Mb, or Audi will save you big time.
I just helped someone trade back a 2011 Hyundai Sonata limited to dealer . He paid 27k traded back to dealer for 15k.. Nice hit for a 3 year drive
I dunno, seems like buying a 3 year old BMW, Mercedes or Audi is about the worst possible thing to do. Warranty runs out when all the repairs start to be needed. And those are expensive repairs on those.
I agree these cars are expensive to maintain when they get older or out of warranty.. Vehicles are being made a lot better today than years ago. On the topic of above mention cars your talking about saving 25 to 30k on certain models. So from a money stand point its a much better buy. wouldn't you agree. I was not not talking about keeping any of these cars for more than 6 or 7 years .
I guess I am just lucky, but my 2007 Accord with 175k miles has been close to maintenance free. Other than tires and oil it has needed 1 O2 sensor, rear brake pads and spark plugs. Less than $200.
Tires and oil are basically the same for old and new cars. Most used cars (especially at dealers) either have new tires, or the price is reduced to make up the the tires being old.
I replaced the plugs at 120k with irridium and the originals still looked fine, but I already had the new ones so I changed them anyway. The rear brakes only wore out because the the brake cable hit a rock and rusted shut when I parked it for a week (out of town of course), so I was driving with the rear brakes on until I got home and detached the e-brake.
Clutch and front brakes are still original and still have lots of life left. 34.9 lifetime mpg on top of all that. The car has been good to me.
I will add that the newer DI engines may not last as long (I expect my 2007 to go 300-400k miles as the top of the engine still looks new - all synthetic oil diet). My '13 Accord needed a quart of oil at about 7,500 miles. My '07 is only down a few tenths at 10,000. Also the tailpipe looks brand new on my '07 and my '13 has a very light coat of soot. I think as engines get pushed more and more for power and mpg they will lose some durability.
My brother has over 350k miles on a 95 Infinity G-20. No major problems and routine maintenance. I am not so sure this will be as common with a small turbo direct injection engine that many midsizers are moving towards.
Comments
One instance? That does not a pattern make.
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A 2013 would still be under warranty, so why the quick trigger? Seems a bit of an exaggerated reaction. No car is 100% perfect - things will fail.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
"The fuel tank is smaller by three gallons"
I did not know that. Seems a significant compromise. Was that just for weight reduction, or have they done something useful with the space saved? One of the benefits of good fuel economy is supposed to be range, right?
Our old Yukon, though a pig at 14 city, 19 mpg highway (downhill with a tailwind), carried 31 gallons, so could easily go 500 miles per tank on long road trips. Not that the people on board can survive 8 hours without stopping, but you can be more selective about when and especially where to stop, i.e., wait for the cleanest facilities. And even staying around town, I only had to buy gas every 3-4 weeks (if you go to the station that doesn't turn off the pump at $75...)
The Accord has a decent tank at 16 gallons or so. I'm going about 350-375 miles between fill-ups. Haven't had enough experience with the Pathfinder to say. 3rd tank beat the 2nd, but we've been 50/50 city/highway and still below the advertised city mpg. I'll give it time to "break in" before making a verdict. And the Big Mouse trip next month will be a real test.
I find it funny how many people think of gas mileage in terms of range. I asked a friend what kind of gas mileage he got in his new Sienna on their trip to New Mexico and he said, "About 350 miles a tank, only had to fill up once..." MPG evidently less of an issue than "MPT", for some.
Love the range of my Accord. Always over 500 miles. At 575 right now - with 40 miles of range left. I get close to 700 miles on long trips. Rarely put in $50 as gas is $3.19 now. The extra range means I can totally bypass cities with expensive fuel, or as long as I am within about 300 miles from home I don't have to refuel out of town. Good for the local economy.
I like the Elantra GT. It is the only Elantra with a chrome polished dual tip exhaust and that makes the car pop a little, and I know from friends and neighbors that the 2004's last a long, long time. Mr. Hyundai didn't offer 10 year 100,000 mailer warranties on his products anticipating to pay out all his profits as claims. Hyundai wants to beat Toyota and Honda. That is their goal..... period.
@akirby said:
That is why I kept mine down to a box that was small enough to fit right between the shock towers. I would say My dual 10" MTX box weighs 25lbs max. The two amps weigh about 10 pounds. 4 stock speakers (total crap paper) weighed about a pound each., replaced by 4speakers weighing 1.5 to 2 pounds each.
So let's just say 40 pounds. I would say my new system is on the low and conservative type. About 550 watts RMS is all the power I wanted. I gotta tell you, playing Rush with a subwoofer is amazing. Having a truly good quality speaker system makes a huge difference. I had the Infinity system in my Jeep, as many vehicles do.... Bose does this as well of course, and unfortunately that usually means just adding a powered subwoofer.
With "A" pillar tweeters offered on even cheap cars like my moms Forte' EX, tossing in an 8" paper powered subwoofer and A lot of pretty badges are the only changes needed for most people to believe they have purchased a premium product, when all you get is a Chinese Amp and 1more paper speaker exchanged for lots more of your hard earned paper.
Um, mine doesn't seem to have that. Of course, mine is the base model with no options.
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But I've now read some other posts too saying that some other recent model VWs are continuing to have problems.
Perhaps more valid is the newest JD Power Dependability Study, which as of 2014 ranks VW well below average:
http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/2014-Vehicle-Dependability-Study-Press-Release.htm
What's shocking is that MINI is dead last. Gulp. Cross that one off.
The top brands for Dependability according to JDP?
Lexus, Mercedes, Cadillac, Acura, Buick, Honda, Lincoln, Toyota, etc.
I see a lot of Minis on used car lots, more than I would expect. I always figured the reason was that they were either (a) troublesome or (b) a disappointment to live with. I suspect many were bought almost on impulse due to the cool factor, which can wear off quickly if the car is painful to live with.
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Well said.
I find them appealing too sometimes for their looks, as well as what I've read about their handling and fun to drive factor. And since it's engineered by BMW you can say, with some truth, this is the middle-class person's BMW. But with dependability dead last. Wow. Painful. I can imagine dropping it like a hot potato at some point. I've been burned enough in my life by bad cars to want to avoid holding something like that....
PS Read this MINI review from the customer section at Edmunds.com. It seems like a true cris de coeur....
http://www.edmunds.com/mini/cooper/2013/consumer-reviews/review.html?style=200434271&reviewId=2116937893
"Bad. Very. Very bad.
By ihitcows on 06/28/13 19:20 PM (PDT)
Vehicle
2013 MINI Cooper S 2dr Hatchback (1.6L 4cyl Turbo 6M)
Review
I'm a writer. It's what I do. I've gone looking for the words to say about this car, and I can't find them. I'm instead overtaken by gusts of anger, confusion, and a general bitterness that this prop, this four-wheeled thing parading as a car, has consumed me this wholly. Look elsewhere. Do not get this car. Do not. Get. This car. Just last week I racked up my twelfth (12th) service appointment in 15 months. MINI has dealt with almost every problem I've submitted, aside from the car running out of oil at 5k and a wheel bearing coming off, by repeatedly denying their existence. When they find a given problem, seven service receipts deep, they say it's "spec."
Favorite Features
The tweeters loudly crackling. The clutch screeching into first and second gears ("normal"). The high-pitched whine that follows the engine's revs in pitch. The window rolling down, after I pressed to roll it up. The lumbar of my seat has snapped and buckled in under my hefty 165lb frame. There's a squeak coming from paneling near the trunk an engineer said was "common." Yet it took them multiple visits to find it? ... I've got a few of 'em on YouTube, even.
Suggested Improvements
Burn, hate, bad, pain; many simple-minded, monosyllabic curses upon you, you terrible, terrible, terrible excuse for a car company."
And now back to good midsize cars. How many would buy theirs again?
Wow .. just wow. My daughter has had two MINIs now, and only one unscheduled trip to the dealer between them.
She must have gotten ones made on a Wednesday....
Sorry, no mid-sized sedans in my stable. I had a Saturn L300 for most of the 00's, however.
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You can find a review like that for almost any model. It's a pattern that's troublesome. That's why I like large surveys like CR. Back to topic, I loved my Nissan Maxima but did not buy another one. Only reasons: fuel economy and premium gas. Too early to tell after only one year but so far I love my Honda Accord. For me the perfect balance.
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I just want to say that > @Michaell said:
This is the model of which I speak. I saw it in the showroom at the Hyundai store across from my Kia dealer (bored during oil change) That was when I first found out that Hyundai makes 3 different models of Elantra' flavor. Is your daughters car a hatchback or sedan?
Here it is:
I would buy two. One Optima EX for me and LX for my mother. Both with heated seats.
She bought the 2010 Forte' EX instead. It has never broke down and is still vault like when I take it in for service but it is SO low budge. She could care less. A/C and automatic plus some sort of radio and she is fine.
I hate her steering wheel. It is of such low quality I uttered "eeew" when I drove it a while back after getting out of mine.
She drove mine 3 weeks ago and wishes we both knew of the Optima's existence in late 2010, but we didn't.
The bottom line, is I would buy this car again. It is exactly what I wanted, and my mother would trade upfor the cushy ride.
Gosh we both have the exact same Powertrains. Your SE and my EX are equally matched and made in almost every way. If they got married I guess the model would be SE-X. LOL,
Would you buy your Sonata again? Do you look forward to driving it and is it still as nice top look at as the day you bought it?
Wasn't the L300 some sort of Opel or Vauxhall re-badge to give Saturn more products. I actually don't know and I owned a 92 SL2 white with than leather. I liked it except for the oil slick produced from the exhaust. Some sort of Valve seal issue. GM dealer said "within spec if less than 2.5 quarts a MONTH. Mine burned ONLY 2. I drove the crap out of it with many long trips to Canada and to South Carolina, Erie PA, Buffalo. It was a good car, and I believe the engine was "within spec", but every time I floored it thick black smoke pour from the exhaust. See, that's what I hate about the "Big three" meaning American cars. It was ALWAYS something that didn't work right. Not so with the Asians for the most part. That is why they almost killed our domestic market. Then one of my friends showed up in a brand new $5,000 Hyundai Excel. It was, for a kid in th 11'th grade, an awesome little car. It was better than my American [non-permissible content removed] box in almost every way... we all openly laughed about it, but secretly we thought it was a good little car. The Honda CRX too. See, right before these cars.....
.........I remember an America full of Cavaliers, Sunfires, Sunbird's, Cutlass Ciara's, Buick Skyhawk, Ford Granada's, LTD's Skylark, hell anything with Sky in front of it., (owned 2, ).One burned to the ground outside my girlfriends house, blowing out windows when the tires popped. The car would not run making a left turn, so being a broke 16 year old I just found a way to drive everywhere with right turns!. The fuel line was caught on something, then leaked and ignited in her driveway. I hopped in and got it away from the houses wand ran for the safety of the porch, then when things started exploding we realized our safety was not at all relative there and retreated to the house looking out the window. It burned 2 inches of asphalt off of the ROAD. Very, very bad car. I had an 84 T Type than was very nice though, then there were cars I can barely remember. I had a 87 Olds Tornado Trofeo' whose engine didn't like each others parts so it exploded. I had a $500 beautiful 1990 Cutlass low mileage beauty with the 3.3 liter 160 hp motor. I had it three weeks and was T boned in DC. I hate driving in DC. It is a totally different world from suburban VA.
I tell you guys I have owned over 20 cars, and I hope for 20 more, because I just love the damned automobile in almost every format.
It had the Saturn plastic body so it was more than a rebadge but it was an Opel platform as I recall.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
That's the Coupe. I've got the GT, which is the hatchback and has the single, boring exhaust tip.
Sigh.
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Yeah, the L-series was a cousin to some Euro-GM cars.
Or, as I liked to say, "US depreciation with Euro parts costs".
I had mine for 7+ years and 95,000 miles. It had it's issues - two body control modules failed, at $600 per. Had to rebuild the front brakes at 50K - rotors and calipers - for another $1200.
$25,000 new and I got $3000 in trade for it on the daughter's first MINI.
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LOL. When I went searching for the one I saw,up popped 2 million pages of aftermarket Elantra dual exhaust kits. I was like ....is that what I saw ?
No. I clung to the hope that I did see GT and dual tip on the same car. But it was not to be. intake.
I confused two models into 1- but all I remembered was the GT label and a chrome exhaust dual tip. Now I know.
Hey on the Mini Countryman guy that was all pissed....there are still bad apples, and mixed with a half crazy [non-permissible content removed]-sapien, out pops crazy letter's about cars falling apart right in front of our eyes, fresh from the dealer who stole our money. Or the "I'm gonna get you and ruin your good name by exaggerating low quality issues and uncaring dealers. Who knows. I see Mini's all the time. Always clean and with a happy enough looking GIRL driving them.
There is no way I could fit in one. My father-in-law bought one as soon as they came out with the supercharged engine. He sold it in under a year. After piloting F-4's in the Corp's it's hard to get scary speed like that again for realistic dollars. Then he got his BMW Motorcycle, never rode it, and now happily drives a Jeep Liberty of all things? Uggghh
No no no....ho...mo is not a bad word mixed wiith sapien. I was not speaking of sex at all, but of species.
Well, I leased it, for 3 years, $47 a month, nothing up front. For a deal like that (trading in a beat-up 2009 Sonata GLS), yes, I'd do it again if I were looking for a mid-sized sedan. But my wife's next vehicle will probably be a small SUV, as she needs a higher entry/exit. I do look forward to driving it, especially on longer trips as it's a nice highway cruiser, and especially in winter with the heated seats. And I still like its looks, in red/camel.
My car paint choice is almost always dark red with a tan/black interior. The Kia has held up well for 2.7 years.
You know, I saw on the science channel on "How do they do it?" That VW has a HUGE fully computerized and automated parts hub that is quick and accurate. I guess if nothing is in the fancy bins for the robots to go collect then there is no part available. I never heard of problems getting parts for a VW just stung by the price.
Wait, did you say $47 a month for 3 years and no money down? Holy cow.
It appears he traded in the 2009 Sonata which was in fact something up front, not "nothing up front" unless I read his post incorrectly.
No cash up front. Correct.
On another thread someone was looking to replace their 20 year old Accord with a car for less than 5k. The choices listed were things like an Acura and a Lexus from c. 2000 with 150k miles. One of their biggest goals was low maintenance costs. I said I didn't think any of them would be low maintenance, and then trotted out the idea that in the long run (c. 10 years) new can be cheaper than used. For possible interest and debate, here's the made up math for it:
"Say you got the 2000 Acura for 3200, but then spend c. 1500 a year for repairs and maintenance. Perhaps that sounds high to you. And maybe it is. But go to the Edmunds.com true cost to own feature, and plug in a somewhat older luxury car. The oldest Acura TL for which they have estimates is a 2008. And some years they are estimating that this 8 year newer Acura can cost 1500 in repairs and maintenance. And so for a 2000 I think that might be a fair guess.
Anyway, you run it for 5 years x 1500 + purchase cost of 3200 = c. $10k
By the year 2019 it's likely to be dead or dying. Few cars really live well past 20 years imho. That's about the lifespan of a well-engineering and well maintained car in most cases.
So then you buy another 15 year old car. Prices have gone up, and so this 2005 Acura or Lexus costs 6k, but also needs 1500 a year to survive another 5 years. = another c. 13k
So in this scenario maybe you've spent on the used cars and repairs for maintenance c. $23k over ten years
What if instead you got a new Nissan Altima this year. My local dealer recently advertised a base 2014 for about $19k, down from the list of c.$23. Plus Nissan is offering 0 financing over 5 years.
In the short run you are paying more, and that might not be possible. But if it can be done it might work out financially in the long run.
First, maintenance and repairs are drastically less. These days a good new car gets by with relatively little for the first 10 years and 100,000 miles. It comes down to lots of oil changes (50 a pop), tire rotations, a new set of tires, a new set of brake pads, etc. The 2002 Honda Accord I kept for 95k miles had about $2000 maintenance (and no repairs) in the 8 years I owned it.
What if we said 3k for the Altima over ten years. That would add up to $22k.
At first it seems like it's about a tie: 23k for used and 22k for new.
But then factor in mpg. The 2000 Acura costs about $2950 a year to fuel according to the EPA. A 2014 Altima costs about $1750 to fuel. That's a difference of $1200 a year, which over a decade adds up to $12,000.
Suddenly new is looking like it can pay in the long run.
Then add in resale. By the time your 2000 Acura gets to 2019 my guess is that it'll basically go to the junkhard. Maybe you'll get a 1000 for it. Ditto for the next old car sold when it's really old. I've been there. They just aren't worth much. I donated my 1988 Olds 98 in 2008 to Goodwill.
So, maybe $2000 resale going old used.
By 2024, however, it's likely a 2014 Altima will still have some value. 7k? Who knows. But it'll still have some life in it.
Finally, there's your time and energy. I spent so many hours at mechanics and in garages with my old cars. It was not only expensive, but stressful, and just took a lot of time. What a waste. I wish, in retrospect, I'd just taken the plunge sooner to get a good new car, rather than limping along for years with a series of bad old cars that....Well, you get the idea.
Plus a new car is safer and has features a 2000 Acura or Lexus couldn't dream of, like bluetooth.
Sorry this is so long."
Just heard on the news Mini Cooper Countryman is the only car to get "Good" rating from IIHS out of 13 cars on the small frontal offset test or what have you.
So, there we have it. One man says junk, but reality is that the Cooper is as well made as any other new car IMHO.
I know tis is mid size, but did you guys know that the base engine on the mini is a 1.5 liter 3 cyl (turbo)?
Then the S is a 2.0 T, and you would be correct that they just add a cylinder.
It's nice to see such good crash test scores on the MINI. And now that they have BMW rather than Peugeot-engineered engines they are probably more reliable. It still seems like a compelling car to me, but ending up dead last in the JDP Dependability study seemed like a clear warning to informed consumers....
The sad thing about that new IIHS crash test is that the Mazda5 essentially failed. I used to own a Mazda5, but traded it in for our 2013 Accord. But four years ago when my sister was car shopping, I recommended the Mazda5 and she got it. Yikes. I forwarded the video to her with apologies and recommended she consider a Subaru Forester (if she still wants a wagon) or an Accord if she's willing to go sedan.
I don't think you would average $1500/year in repairs unless that also includes tires and maintenance (which would also be required on a new car).
First, a correction to a couple of earlier posts from me re my lease on a 2013 Sonata: I traded in a 2007 Sonata GLS, pretty beat up, needing new tires... not a 2009.
Second, re the post on getting a new Altima for around $19k vs. a used car... on that same thought, within the past few days I've seen ads for both a new 2014 Optima LX and a 2014 Sonata GLS for $17k. Also I often see ads for base model Fusions for around $17k, even a little less with all incentives (some of which not every buyer may qualify for of course). All very nice cars at a great price. Of those, my pick would be the Optima LX. And another benefit of the Optima and Sonata is they have the 5-year bumper-to-bumper warranty, 2 years longer than on the Altima, Fusion, and most other mid-sized cars. And if you find the right dealer (as I did with my wife's Sonata), you might even get some goodies tossed in like free oil changes.
I don't think there was ever much debate among owners that a Mini Cooper was a sturdy, solidly-built little car. You can tell that from the first minute you sit in one and drive it.
The problem as I see it as an owner is that this "little, fun car" costs as much as a Porsche to drive and maintain. And that is not an idle comment--I've priced out maintenance and parts back to back and it's very close indeed.
I hope as MINIs get BIGGER, they get BETTER, and also cheaper to operate.
1500 might be on the high side, but yes that was meant to include everything—tires, maintenance, and repairs. And that's meant to be an average for a 15 year old luxury car. Obviously some years it might be just be a few hundred, but other years you might run into thousands of dollars.
Yeah, part of the dream of the MINI for me it's that it's almost the middle-class person's BMW. It is in terms of msrp, but in terms of maintenance and repairs Shiftright's experience seems like a warning at this point.
If you average it out for a number of years, and if you don't do your own work, or scrounge used parts, or buy the cheapest imaginable parts, I bet that's pretty accurate.
I mean, just brakes and tires is an easy $1K. Or overhauling an AC unit--that's pricey. Timing belts on a V-6 ain't cheap, and clutch work on a FWD car can be labor intensive.
....and the Mining ins distinctly European... but is kind of a mutt now, Just like us, after invention by the British,
Well I have an early MINI, so the later turbo models are improved I am told. I don't expect the repair and maintenance costs to have improved however.
Have you started to think about your next car? And is a MINI on the list?
I am actively hunting for a clean Porsche 996 coupe, so no mid-size sedans in my immediate future unless I go for a second car. If I were shopping, I'd probably shop VW, BMW or (gasp) a Fiesta ST. (no wait, that last one isn't midsized, is it?)
But the cost of tires and brakes and regular maintenance is the same whether it's a new car or old car so you'd have to add some of that $1500 to the new car cost as well.
Sighted: Driving home with my daughter after shopping, we both notice a green 98 Camry bumbling down my main street. Well what made it weird you say? It was missing the hood, both fenders, 1 headlight and bezel assembly. In other words, 3/4 of a Camry.
My daughter said: maybe he could only afford 3/4 of a car. LOL,
true enough but with a used car you don't often start off even with a new car in terms of tires or brakes...you "inherit" a certain amount of wear and tear on both "expendables" like tires and brakes, and on regular components as well.
I tried to do that. But in my experience most old cars have somewhat worn brakes and tires. They often need to be replaced in the first year or so of ownership. A new car is free of that for about the first 5-6 years. in 2002 I bought a new Accord LX. Aside from lots of oil changes, tire rotations, etc., the main things needed were a new set of tires at about 60k miles and a new set of brake pads. No repairs were needed in c. 95,000 miles of ownership. It didn't even need a tune-up. I think the total for maintenance following the factory schedule was about $2000 over 8 years, including the tires and brake pads.
One word for the old vs. new. Depends. It depends on the quality and condition of the used car. Some used cars come with new tires and brakes so you can't just automatically assume they will be an expense right off the bat. On the flip side, even newer cars have their problems.. I just read the other day that the new Chevy Silverado has had something like a recall a month for every month it's been out. Not expensive but surely a huge hassle. I would guess that some people have more time than money and on average a used car will be less expensive mainly because of the huge depreciation hit.
Now if you compared a low mileage 3 yr old used car to a new one the used car would win easily I think for cost of ownership over 5 years or more.
@M6user said,
Now if you compared a low mileage 3 yr old used car to a new one the used car would win easily I think for cost of ownership over 5 years or more.
................................................................................................................................................................
Buying a new vehicle is one of the worst investments we could make financially. With there depreciation values , Bad roads , and drivers. Guys like us that buy every 3 or 4 years are the ones paying the price. its lots of fun but gets you in the pocket. I know many people who will only buy a 3 or 4 yr old vehicle. They are the ones saving money.. Buying a 3yr old Bmw, Mb, or Audi will save you big time.
I just helped someone trade back a 2011 Hyundai Sonata limited to dealer . He paid 27k traded back to dealer for 15k.. Nice hit for a 3 year drive
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
I dunno, seems like buying a 3 year old BMW, Mercedes or Audi is about the worst possible thing to do. Warranty runs out when all the repairs start to be needed. And those are expensive repairs on those.
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I agree these cars are expensive to maintain when they get older or out of warranty.. Vehicles are being made a lot better today than years ago. On the topic of above mention cars your talking about saving 25 to 30k on certain models. So from a money stand point its a much better buy. wouldn't you agree. I was not not talking about keeping any of these cars for more than 6 or 7 years .
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
I guess I am just lucky, but my 2007 Accord with 175k miles has been close to maintenance free. Other than tires and oil it has needed 1 O2 sensor, rear brake pads and spark plugs. Less than $200.
Tires and oil are basically the same for old and new cars. Most used cars (especially at dealers) either have new tires, or the price is reduced to make up the the tires being old.
I replaced the plugs at 120k with irridium and the originals still looked fine, but I already had the new ones so I changed them anyway. The rear brakes only wore out because the the brake cable hit a rock and rusted shut when I parked it for a week (out of town of course), so I was driving with the rear brakes on until I got home and detached the e-brake.
Clutch and front brakes are still original and still have lots of life left. 34.9 lifetime mpg on top of all that. The car has been good to me.
I will add that the newer DI engines may not last as long (I expect my 2007 to go 300-400k miles as the top of the engine still looks new - all synthetic oil diet). My '13 Accord needed a quart of oil at about 7,500 miles. My '07 is only down a few tenths at 10,000. Also the tailpipe looks brand new on my '07 and my '13 has a very light coat of soot. I think as engines get pushed more and more for power and mpg they will lose some durability.
My brother has over 350k miles on a 95 Infinity G-20. No major problems and routine maintenance. I am not so sure this will be as common with a small turbo direct injection engine that many midsizers are moving towards.