Tires, tires, tires

brainlessbozo · January 2004

My 03 Forrester came with Yokohama Geolanders, which I soon found were pretty useless in the slushy snow & ice here in S.Dakota. After an extensive search, I changed to Blizzaks (50). Driving from the shop was a real big change. This morning, I had a tough time TRYING TO SLIP in the snow. Amazing traction and braking. I think the Yokohamas were stressing out the AWD system. Even on dry pavement, they seem fabulous, given that the surface can get really smooth at 2 degrees F. The guy at one of the shops I went to told me about the BFG Traction TAs. Said they are all-season, with great snow & ice performance. Has anyone tried these? I may consider them after may Yokos wear out (many don't expect more than 25K miles from those, I hear).

Hope to hear about the Tractions TAs from readers!

sequoiasoon · January 2004

I called a couple shops and that price sounds about right. Read posts 3272 and 3280 for "noise". Compared to the other "all season" that aren't very good in snow, yes, a little louder but not that you have to turn stereo up to cover and go deaf. My sister and 3 friends run them year round also (and I plan to keep them for my summer tires based on performance). Asking them now about noise and they said "I think it was a little louder but can't really remember now, they seem quiet". They were so much happier with big increase in snow and wet grip (over Eagle LS and Michelin MXV4) with no noticeable difference in dry grip that they plan to get more if/when theirs wear out.

capriracer · January 2004

Word of warning:

Checking tire pressure below 36 degrees can be a bit risky. Once in a great while, the process causes a bit of ice to form in the valve, holding it open and letting all the air out.

Mind you this is once in a great while, so if my other choice is not checking the tires for 6 months, I'd take the risk.

And all tire pressures are supposed to be at ambient conditions - even if it's 25 below! Brrr!

Hope this helps.

tmt1961 · January 2004

just rotate the tires now hearing noise when travel > 40mph mostly in the front. any opinions? thanks,

kimo9 · January 2004

"And all tire pressures are supposed to be at ambient conditions"

What do you mean? Are you implying that a 35 psi reading at 10 degrees would be the same 35 psi reading at 70 degrees? It would seem that the laws of physics would say otherwise being that air molecules in the tire would want to condense taking up less volume therefore reducing the pressure.

pathstar1 · January 2004

is measured as the difference between pressure in the tire and outside, not the volume of air to give XX PSI at standard ambient temp. and pressure. The requirement is not influenced greatly by temperature. It's true the pressure will change if the temp. changes, but the tire requires the force of XX PSI of air inside regardless of ambient temp., inflated while at ambient temp. They will run at a higher pressure when they warm up, but that is allowed for in the design. So you have to adjust the volume of air to keep the pressure at the specified value at ambient temp. Note that in cold weather tires can loose air as well. I suspect it's because the bead gets too stiff to seal perfectly. Valves can also leak, but if you have good quality valve caps. they will stop this.

Too low a pressure will allow too much flex and therefore too much heat. The pressure will rise, but the tire will run too hot and will also wear too much on the outside of the tread. Way too low pressure will allow the tire to soften and fail from heat.

Too high a pressure will cause the tread to contact in the centre only, affecting handling and wear. Way too high a pressure will also take you into tire failure territory, a place you don't want to go for either too low or too high a pressure.

I find it interesting that the new tire pressure monitors are giving owners warnings now in the cold weather. They report the warning stops after they drive a ways, but many of them still don't realize their tire pressure is too low. They just attribute it to faulty electronics. So much for trying to force people into action maintaining proper inflation pressure.

stever · January 2004

"Always check the tire pressure when the tires are "cold," usually after the car has sat overnight or for more than 4 hours. This allows for the most accurate tire pressure. When the car is driven more than 5-10 miles, the tires heat up and expand, thus adding a few pounds of pressure. If one was to check their pressure after driving an extended period of time (say to the store or to work), they would get an incorrect reading (unless they were to adjust for the increase in pressure), thus leading to overinflation."

Are you in here Don?

link

Steve, Host

arlingtonva · January 2004

We have a '95 Nissan Quest which needs another tire replacement soon.

The orig. tires were Goodyear Eagle "H"-rated size 215/70R15. This van had larger tires because it had the optional towing pkg. - not that we needed it - it was just a left-over '95 model at years end. Most of these Quest vans did not have H-rated tires; most tire charts do not even show it as an option.

In any event, at 45K miles the Goodyears had to be replaced. Installed Michelin MXV4, same size but V-rated. The only "H" rated we could get was the Goodyear again. Even Goodyear store did not have a high opinion of them and they were more expensive than Michelins!

After about 40K miles and 5 years on the Michelins, they are due for replacement soon. Is there any reason to go with an H or V-rated tire for this van? We do haul things in it but not more than 500 lbs. When we were getting the last set, some tire stores recommended an S or T-rated tire; others would not install anything less than an H-rated tire. Even our Nissan dealer was not sure. A tire dealer said that if I had bought an S or T-rated Michelin, it would still be good for another 30K miles.

This van does not need an H or V-rated for speed. Lucky if we can get up to 70mph in 2 minutes.

Even so, it has been a good van and serves its purpose and is not worth anything on a trade or resale.

I would appreciate any thoughts on this matter. I am at a dead-end on this.

Thanks,
Henry

capriracer · January 2004

"And all tire pressures are supposed to be at ambient conditions"

Opps! I meant all inflation pressures are supposed to be MEASURED at ambient conditions. Meaning whatever the outside air temperature and pressure is.

Sorry

squeezedlemon · January 2004

Where as I think they are probably a great tire I am reluctant to go with the Nokians because I have found that they have few if any dealers to service a warranty issue in the South and SW where I will be traveling in a month or so. Any experience with this manufacturer?

Therefore I am looking for advice as to whether it is advisable to use tire chains on my 96 Legacy Outback as an alternative to Nokian WR2 4 season tires or snow tires. I would rather get a set of all-season tires like Michelin Hydroedge and use chains occasionally. I expect to be living in Portland, OR and as I am not a skier and I expect to only occasionally encounter extreme conditions in the foothills and mountains of the North West. My concern is that the car has 140 K and while the tranny has been working fine I don't want to push it over the edge. Any experience or opinions out there on this?

Regards,

Matt

bretfraz · January 2004

IMO you'll be just fine with S or T rated tires. Speed rated tires certainly have their place but perhaps not on a 9 yr old minivan that rarely breaks 70.

I'm sure you could find a decent tire in that size for $40-60 each that would work just fine.

bretfraz · January 2004

One of the things that some tire buyers overlook in their quest for the perfect tire is after-the-sale service. If you don't live near a Nokian dealer and you have a problem with one of your tires, who's gonna take care of it for you?

For some putting the car out of commission for several days while the defective tire is sent out and replaced is not a problem. For others its more than a hassle. Something to consider next time you're in the market for tires, that's for sure.

robr2 · January 2004

One thing to keep in mind is the weight rating of the tire as well. There are other numbers on the sidewall (89, 96, et al) that specify how much weight the tire can handle. You should ensure that whatever you buy can handle the load.

tyblack · February 2004

I purchase my IS 300 for the look. I do not know much about tire pressure or what type tires to buy. My uncle are all tell my that it something wrong with the alignment or the in tow whatever that is. The tire I purchase are dunlap 215/45R 17 87W SP Sport FM 901. And you know I can't rotate the tire because the back tires are a different size. Very confuse.

grapevinetx · February 2004

Well, now that you have new tires, learning about tire pressure and alignment will help you to get good service life from them. There is a sticker on the door jam, driver's side, of the car that indicates the correct tire pressure for the vehicle. Tire pressure should be checked "cold", meaning after the vehicle has been sitting for at least 6 hours. Before you drive for the first time on a given day is a great time to check them. Adjust your cold tire pressure to the setting that is indicated on your door sticker, then re-check the pressure every 2 weeks and add air if you find them low.

Toe-in is one of the measures of wheel alignment. Were the tires that you replaced worn unevenly? If yes, this is probably why your uncle thinks the alignment is off. If the alignment is poor, and you don't get it corrected, then the new tires are going to wear faster than they should.

bartalk2 · February 2004

I need new tires for my 2000 Volvo S70 GLT, but before I buy them I want to know the torque on the wheel nuts to tell the guys at Costco or wherever who probably just tighten it up to whatever feels good.

Does anybody know what the torque is supposed to be on that car or where I could find the figure?

Thanks.

robr2 · February 2004

It's probably in your owner's manual.

bartalk2 · February 2004

Thanks. I called Tirerack; they gave me a figure of 81llb/ft. I'll check the manual.

driftracer · February 2004

I've been doing business with them for 20 years - they haven't made a mistake yet!

Rule of thumb is 80 lbs for aluminum wheels, 90 for steel, unless you're dealing with 3/4 or 1 ton trucks with the larger studs, then 110-120 is the norm.

bretfraz · February 2004

Most Costco's I've been to have a chart on the wall with torque specs for all modern cars. Sometimes it's by the register and sometimes back in the install bay.

Regardless, I'd retorque them when I got home just to be sure.

pathstar1 · February 2004

Just went into Kal Tire on the Yellowhead here in Edmonton. Had a front tire on my 2001 Pathfinder LE that suddenly lost most of its' air. Thought I'd picked up a nail or something. They found no leak. They removed the wheel, removed the tire and inspected it, put it back with sealer on the bead and replaced the valve stem. No charge! Talk about good customer relations. Too bad new car dealers can't act like this. Guess I'll be buying my next set there!

stever · February 2004

"Plus-sizing doesn't come cheap. If you go up one size on a sedan, figure on spending at least 800 dollars for your four wheels. And for the largest plus-size tires sold for SUVs and pickups you'll pay a whopping five thousand dollars to outfit your vehicle."

Tire Caution (R News)

Steve, Host

driftracer · February 2004

"Plus-size tires don't do as well on wet pavement. They're more likely to hydroplane."

That's a typical uneducated (about the subject) journalist over-generalization.

"If you go up one size on a sedan, figure on spending at least 800 dollars for your four wheels"

Somebody doesn't know where to shop!

"And for the largest plus-size tires sold for SUVs and pickups you'll pay a whopping five thousand dollars to outfit your vehicle"

Well, for the "largest" (currently 26s) with tires, you're actually looking at closer to $8-10K, especially if you have spinners!

I grow tired of journalists trying to impress the civilian community with their knowledge, which usually results in misleading people with inaccurate information.

dhoff · February 2004

I'm looking at replacing the tires on our family's 99 Nissan Quest. The original tires were Goodyear Eagle LS's in 225 60r16 size.

A couple of years ago I replaced them with Michelin Symmetry's in the same size. I have been really happy with them. The ride is much smoother, they are still perfectly round and balanced, and they are quieter than the Goodyears they replaced.

However they are about 3/4 worn out and with all the snow we have been getting I think I should replace them. The only beef I have with them (besides the fact that snow traction is much worse with the decreased tread depth) is they decreased the steering feel and accuracy. I've been doing some research at Tirerack.com and I think I am settled on Michelin Harmony's.

I've heard nothing really negative about these tires. Anybody here have any experience with them? I'm particularly interested in hearing from anyone who has experience with both the Symmetry and Harmony tires.

Dave

obyone · February 2004

Yuck....reminds me of bling bling

corvette · February 2004

I currently have Continental CT95's on my Altima, which uses the weirdo size 205/65/16. I am unimpressed with their responsiveness, cornering ability, and wet and dry traction. They're a little too much like the Michelin Energy MXV4's for my liking--too much comfort, too little performance. The Kumho Ecsta HP4 716 is also available in this oddball size, and gets good reviews from Tirerack.

I have extensive experience with a set of Michelin Pilot XGT H4 in size 225/50/16 on my old Jetta VR6, and these tires provided exceptional dry traction, good wet traction, and plenty of comfort and quiet for me, but turned the car into a deathtrap in the snow. The Kumho's are listed as Grand Touring All Season instead of High Performance All Seson, which gives me some pause. Further, dry and wet traction are rated as only marginally better than the Conti's I currently have on the Altima.

Specifically, how would the Kumho's compare to a set of Michelin Pilot Sport A/S in 225/60/16? The Pilot Sport A/S is an appealing (but expensive) option, but I know that the wider tire would hurt gas mileage and lower off the line performance (my 2.5 liter is already a few ticks behind compared to the 3.5 liter Altima). Any thoughts?

driftracer · February 2004

Quite a few in that size (62 in Tire Rack), and the 416 is one of them. The KH11 is an even better tire with a W rating and $51 a tire.

bretfraz · February 2004

For a great HPAS tire, consider the Bridgestone RE950, Yokohama AVS dB2, or the Dunlop SP5000. All are available in 225/60-16.

BTW, are you sure a 225/60-16 will fit your wheels? You are looking at ~3/4" more in width.

kyfdx · February 2004

215/60-16 would be the better fit.. Nearly the same diameter as your current tires also. They aren't cheap, but I would recommend Bridgestone Turanza LS-H.

regards,
kyfdx

corvette · February 2004

Is the closest to a perfect "plus zero." I've read of others using them, so I assume it will fit. Thanks for the recs...

wain · February 2004

In my camrys size they sell uniroyal, Douglas (who makes those?) and Goodyear Viva 2
what is a goodyear viva 2?
or the douglas?
are these made for walmart only so you can not compare?

misterme · February 2004

Hi!
There have been some debait on another board here about tire pressure and safety.

I drive a Honda Civic Hybrid which the tires have a max cold pressure rating of 51 psi.

I am enjoying 58-61mpg driving with this max rated pressure.

Some have suggested that I am driving dangerously.
Some suggest my tires will explode at any time and I will uncontrollably slide off of the road.
They suggest only to inflate a few psi over the auto mfg's suggested pressure.
Some suggest that I hang a sign on my car warning other drivers that my tires could explode at any time so watch out. (!)

I believe that tires have a safety margin of 10 psi over the tires molded max psi rating.

As long as the tire's molded cold rating is not exceeded, safety is preserved.
However, ride comfort and noise are the trade off of this max pressure.

What do you think?
I've also invited the others to this discussion.
Steve

ruking1 · February 2004

The interesting thing is how much in real life are the variations. I would not use max pressure if only for the fact that most tires at max pressure have a punishing ride, not to mention there will now be little of any "forgiveness" to all those other parts: i.e. shocks, tires, wheels springs etc etc. I personally would use 85% of max tp and adjust accordingly. So in your case, 44 psi.

driftracer · February 2004

reason whatsoever to be running your tires at max pressure, and there are several valid reasons why you shouldn't:

1) Your tires will wear quickly at the centers, causing early replacement - before the early replacement, you have prematurely worn (read: UNSAFE) tires.

2) At max pressure, WITHOUT MAX LOAD, you tire contact patch is significantly reduced. Having driven an Insight and knowing how light the car is, REDUCING contact patch is not safe or smart.

3) The increased pressure WITHOUT MAX LOAD causes jittery handling and makes the vehicle unsafe (see contact patch comment).

4) The manufacturer recommends normal pressures for a reason - if you have an accident, you'll NEVER hand the manufacturer because you're going against their recommendations in the owner's manual and maintenance guide.

5) If handling is a contributing factor in an accident, extra fault/blame (read: NEGLIGENCE) can be placed on you.

You're welcome to do your own thing, as this is America, but if you and I have a wreck because you can't control your car, because for some unknown reason (read: UNBASED, NOT SMART, NOT SAFE) you want to run the tires at 50 psi, I'll be suing you for everything you've got.

bretfraz · February 2004

Being the world's largest retailer has some distinct advantages. One is convincing your suppliers to private label goods for you.

Douglas brand tires are made by Kelly-Springfield and are exclusive to WalMart. The Goodyear Viva 2 is difficult to determine which tire its similar to in their normal line but I guess I'd equte it to the Integrity.

One benefit of buying from WalMart is that any store in the nation can take care of you if you have a problem. On a trip and need a repair? Take it to WalMart.

ruking1 · February 2004

I think if anything the majority of cars involved in accidents that have some type of issues like tires, overwhelmingly suffer from UNDERINFLATION. I have not checked the case law but outside of the Ford Explorer Firestone debacle (severe OEM and customer under inflation), there are very few suits won due to over inflation and by definition 51# with 51#'s is not over inflation.

driftracer · February 2004

and are fairly inexpensive.

I've never bought tires there (although I've been a Wal-Mart customer for 22 years) since all my iron is high-performance stuff and Wal-Mart really only caters to normal passenger car, minivan, and light truck stuff.

I usually buy tires through the Tire Rack, then have them mounted and balanced at Wal-Mart. They do the same rotate and flat repair deal for tires that are carried in, as well.

driftracer · February 2004

when there's no load on the tires - read the tire sidewall - it says MAX RECOMMENDED PRESSURE 51 PSI AT MAX LOAD. Not unloaded.

ruking1 · February 2004

Perhaps you skipped over the part where I said I would run 85% of max tire pressure!? But as you have noted this is America!

driftracer · February 2004

and as long as your looking for case law, it's a lost cause trying to argue about it.

Enjoy.

misterme · February 2004

I used to run them at 40PSI, which is 7psi over the vehicle suggessted pressure.

Someone mentioned that there is no reason what so ever to run tires at max pressure.
There is a reason.

Tire Max at 51 gains about 7-10 mpg.
Max speed driven is about 65mph.
This is not an Insight, it is a Honda Civic.
Insight curb weight is 1.8klb
Civic Hybrid is 2.7klb.
Difference is 900lb.

Since it is raining out, when I go out later (2:30AM) I'll do an experiment.
I'll find a straight patch of road or parking lot.
I'll find the stopping difference of 51psi compared to 44 psi, at 45mph.

If I can find a suitable parking lot (mall etc) I'll see how easy it is to fishtail, etc.

It might be interesting.
Wonder what I'll discover?
I don't want to be unsafe.
Steve

ruking1 · February 2004

Given your variables, I would say that the 44 psi tp will have better performance than the 51 psi !

driftracer · February 2004

But you'll completely blow off the recommendations of the tire manufacturer, the car manufacturer, and people with YEARS of experience that frequent these boards.

OK, whatever.

capriracer1 · February 2004

I followed the discussion mentioned in the other forum and wondered when it was going to arrive here.

For background, I am an engineer doing failure analysis for a major manufacturer of tires.

The first thought I have is that the proposed wet weather test would be better if you used the vehicle manufacturer's inflation of 33 psi vs 51, the max on the sidewall. We already know that the hydroplaning performance will be better, but what ought to be examined is the braking traction - meaning a controlled stop at near lockup. This is difficult to do even for trained drivers, which is why tire manufacturers use a trailer especially set up to conduct these tests, where the trailer lays down a steady stream of water in front of the tire and the tire is gradually braked until locked up. Peak torque on the axle is what is measured. Fairly repeatable.

The blanket use of 85% of the maximum pressure on the sidewall seems to my ear not to be wise from a technical point of view. The primary purpose of inflation pressures this high is to accommodate high speed usage - autobahn level speeds. 35 or 36 psi is more typical as a maximum usage inflation pressure.

This is also true of the 10 psi over inflation comment from the Firestone web site - which BTW applies to LT metric tires and not the types of tires for a Civic.

While I have some disagreement with what some vehicle manufacturers specify for inflation pressure, at the very least, that figure ought to be the starting point and from a personal point I would be very hesitant to go more the 5 psi above the vehicle manufacturer's specified inflation pressure.

Hope this helps.

ruking1 · February 2004

"The primary purpose of inflation pressures this high is to accommodate high speed usage - autobahn level speeds. 35 or 36 psi is more typical as a maximum usage inflation pressure."

And the tires I do keep keep the 85% of maximum psi are to accommodate the fore mentioned levels of speed!

driftracer · February 2004

Civic at autobahn speed levels? I give up.

ruking1 · February 2004

Me? No! More like (H rated) Jetta TDI and (Y and Z rated) Corvette Z06! Actually I drive very slow! It is the cars that do the sustain speeds!

misterme · February 2004

I could only do a straight, flat & level asphalt test in the pouring rain.
Couldn't do an uncontrolled swerve or fish tail test, due to a lack of wide open paved spaces.

The stopping difference between the TP of 51 and 44psi was about 10 feet.
Brake was slammed on hard, ABS pulsed to a stop.
I seemed to have reasonable steering control with both tests, about the same.

I didn't do the test at 33psi.
Given these results I can assume the stopping difference in the rain at 33psi vs 51 can be about 20 feet.

Steve

ruking1 · February 2004

After reading your test I am a tad confused about the direction of the difference. Are you saying that 51 psi tires stop 10ft shorter? Or are you saying the 44psi stops 10 ft shorter?

misterme · February 2004

44psi stopped at the shorter distance.

I apologize for the confusion.

Steve

Tires, tires, tires

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