Tires, tires, tires

snaptab · February 2004

Just put a new set of these tires on my 2001 Focus ZX3. I live in central PA and have only 500 miles on them, but so far I'm very impressed with their winter performance. These tires replaced OE Firestone Firehawks that lasted 36000 miles but got a little scary towards the end. Not a lot of high performance all season choices in the 205/50/16 size. Bought at Tire Rack and as usual received excellent info, service and price.

edh · February 2004

Do I see trends in peoples comments on tire rack?
like
pirellis - short tread wear
Dunlops - noisy

edh · February 2004

i just looked at Goodyears stock history. It went from about $60 a share in 99 to about $6 a share recently.

Is the company in a problem mode to the extent that it has affected its tire quality?

mcdawgg · March 2004

Looking for tires for a Rav4. What does anyone think about Michelin Hydroedge Tires? Originals are 235/60R16, load rated at 100. The Hydroedge's are same size, but load rated at 99. Is this slight difference in load rating ok? The Michelin web site does not list this tire for the RAV, probably because of the load rating, but Tire Rack does list it for the RAV.
Thanks in advance!

capriracer · March 2004

The difference in the load indices is the result of the difference in the ways tire sizes are standardized. In the US, we use a P in front of the size. Everywhere else, they don't. Tire rack doesn't display the letters in front of the size and this is a problem for certain LT metric sizes that have the same numbers in a P metric - HUGE differences in load capacity.

I assume Michelin looked at the load index and refused to list it - the legally safe position.

Tire Rack must have looked at the size - the salesman's position.

For practical purposes, you can use "P" and "non P" interchangeably, but you should always look at the load index to be sure there aren't any potholes in this theory (I know there are!)

Hope this helps.

edh · March 2004

other than this one and tire rack?

stever · March 2004

Do a net search. We don't promote competing forums here. (TireRack ads help support Town Hall, so we don't mind links to them).

Steve, Host

edh · March 2004

I have without success.
there does not seem to be much info cept Consumer reports (for non high performance tires).
Lots of tires sold in the us each year.
not much info.
sorta like oil filters - each brand says they are number one. or air filters

capriracer · March 2004

There are quite a few places where tires are discussed, but me thinks you are looking for the holy grail of tire buyers - the universal comparison.

Sorry, it doesn't exist.

The problem is that testing tires usually involves a road surface and different road surfaces yield different, and often contradictory, results. Then you add in that every tire dealer wants his own unique product, so you'll have the same tire sold under different names and no way to connect the dots.

Let's further complicate the issue by saying that many folks who express their opinions are doing so about their OE (Original Equipment) tires, which are different than tires with the same name, but a different size, sold in the replacement market.

wtd44 · March 2004

I didn't know that Goodyear stock had plummeted that badly, but in view of my own personal (anecdotal) experience, I am not surprised. My problem started with Ford Motor Company sending me a letter, offering to foot the bill for a new set of tires. I had a 1999 Ranger pickup with Firestone tires that were under scrutiny for safety reasons. I'm sure you recall those days! I looked at the situation opportunistically, and although I had no problem with the Firestone tires, I noted that free tires are a good deal, especially when you have 20+ thousand miles on the old tires. I rue the day I made that decision. The Goodyear replacement tires could not be balanced. Over many months I sought a solution from the Goodyear "company store" that put the unacceptable tires on my truck. It was to no avail. I suspect I am only one of many customers having serious driveability problems with such tires. Perhaps this type of quality problem reflects on the decrease in the price of Goodyear stock you noted.

ruking1 · March 2004

Goodyear quality is still a bit spotty. I have two sets and they are seemingly problem free but not the best of the breed in the products I can chose from for my dissimilar cars. The good news is they are coming out with some really good tires i.e.,like the GY Eagle F1 D3's

bobst · March 2004

You get a new car with four new tires.

If you rotate them as recommended, they all wear out at the same rate. Eventually, you have four crummy tires, so you get new ones and repeat the process.

That means you go from one extreme (four good tires) to the other extreme (four bad tires), which is not as safe.

I don't rotate, so the front tires wear out first. However, the rear tires, which are most important for braking, are still pretty good, so the car is safe.

Then I move the rear tires to the front and get two new rear tires. When the tires in front wear out, I repeat the process.

I never have four great tires on the car at one time, but I never have four bad tires on the car at one time either. By avoiding the extreme of four bad tires, I think the car is safer overall.

kyfdx · March 2004

On some cars, the rears wear out sooner. (BMWs for instance). Also, it is the front tires that do most of the braking (thats why they put disc brakes on the front and drums on the back of cheaper cars). But, you are right about having the better tires on the rear. That improves grip and handling, whether on front or rear wheel drive.

So, even though I disagree with some of your reasons, I think not rotating is a pretty good plan, except for one thing. I usually want to change tire model/brand from the OE tires when they wear out. Most of my OE tires have been pretty crappy, and there are much better replacements out there. I don't want a mismatched set, so I want the first set to wear out evenly. If you are happy with the same tires for the life of your car, you've hit on a pretty good plan.

regards,
kyfdx

driftracer · March 2004

"That means you go from one extreme (four good tires) to the other extreme (four bad tires), which is not as safe."

No, you don't - you check your tradewear and replace the tires BEFORE they're worn out. You indicate that people should run around on worn out tires, which would be unsafe and stupid.

"However, the rear tires, which are most important for braking, are still pretty good, so the car is safe."

Couldn't be more wrong - 70-75% of the braking control of a vehicle comes from the front.

"By avoiding the extreme of four bad tires, I think the car is safer overall."

Why would anyone let their tires get to the dangerous point?

Also, not rotating tires on a FWD car causes major wear on the outside, and sometimes the inside, of the tread shoulders, reducing tread contact patch significantly. You then go from a patch about as big as your hand, to one half that size - to control my car? No thanks.

Bobst, no disrespect, but you should stick to giving out advice on how to buy a car - you're way wrong on this tire stuff.

imidazol97 · March 2004

Rear tires on front wheel drive cars tend to wear unevenly, moreso than my front tires which are being trued by the grinding of being the drive wheels. Then when the rears are moved to the front the unevenness can be felt. So leaving the rears there a long, long time, then moving them to the front is going to give more imbalance or out-of-roundness.

driftracer · March 2004

whether you rotate or not - tires can get choppy easily when left in a position.

Guys, Wal-Mart will rotate your tires for $6 (six) dollars. Combine that with checking your air pressure and having them measure the tread depth, and it's a no-brainer.

bobst · March 2004

When we moved rear tires to the front of our Acords, I have never experienced anything wrong with their peformance. Maybe it is because a family car like an Accord is not that sensitive to anything wrong with the tires.

bobst · March 2004

I didn't mean that we should drive on unsafe tires. With tires being as cheap as they are, we replace them before they are worn down near the wear indicators.

Even if a tire is only worn halfway down and there is still plenty of tread left, it is more likely to aquaplane then a new tire. So a somewhat worn tire is not as safe as a new tire.

I agree that most of the braking is done by the front tires. However, the biggest danger is when the rear tires loose their grip and the rear of the car comes around, leading to a spin. That is why most people say the best tires should be on the rear.

So which is safer?

A) four tires with half their tread, or

rear tires with 3/4 of their tread and front tires with 1/4 of their tread.

I say B.

imidazol97 · March 2004

Have a local tire franchise of national chain, with discounters in their name, who are advertising NITROGEN inflation of tires as a godsend.

Anybody else hearing this?

Since the air I breathe is 78% nitrogen, what difference does the other 22% make!!!

driftracer · March 2004

in a perfect world, we'd have a brother with a tire store who gives us new tires every 6 months, so we never have to drive on older tires...

Aside from that perfect scenario, I say, after YEARS in the tire and service business, that regular rotating and maintenance of your tires, replacing them with they hit 3/4 (used) life is the way to go.

Unless you or your brother owns a tire store.

And your question about safety? "A" is your answer, hands down.

imidazol97 · March 2004

It's that last 10% of wear when most problems and punctures occur. I read that somewhere. The tires are more susceptible to nails catching and penetrating (is that true?).

I see replacing tires at 25% and not trying to get that last 15% of wear out of the other two that's very cost effective, in time and money. It's like changing my oil at 2500-3000 unless I've done some long trip driving to clean the contaminants out of the oil... as cheap insurance against sludge and higher wear rates with weakened oil.

driftracer · March 2004

I had a boss who would try to wring every single mile out of our tow truck's tires (medium duty International with 22.5" tires).

The last 2,000 miles was filled with the truck being down once or twice a week for a flat repair or we'd have a tire disintegrate - how cost effective is that when the truck can easily earn over $100 an hour when it's up and running?

I drive only performance cars - I replace my tires when there's 25-40% life left. I don't buy Michelins, so the costs aren't that radical.

I do my own work, and rotate my tires at every oil change. People don't realize how EASY it is to rotate their tires, especially on a FWD car where you can usually use only ONE jack point - it takes me 10 minutes.

imidazol97 · March 2004

in this area Sears, and others give free rotation when tires were bought at their store and initial balancing price was paid.

In Cincy area it looks like lifetime rotation and balancing aren't in the competition list anymore. But Sears cheerfully balances and rotates my tires that I bought at NTB (Sears-owned)every 12K or so. I usually rotate myself one time in between.

driftracer · March 2004

people are against tire rotation - makes no sense to me.

If you want to be "anti" something, why not try something useful for your campaign, like anti-smoking, anti-drugs, anti-spouse/child abuse, etc?

tidester · March 2004

who are advertising NITROGEN inflation of tires as a godsend.

What are the alleged benefits of N₂?

tidester, host

tidester · March 2004

If you want to be "anti" something, why not try something useful for your campaign, like anti-smoking, anti-drugs, anti-spouse/child abuse, etc?

For one reason none of those is relevant to automotive discussions. Rather than attempting to casually dismiss another's views it might be more constructive to point out the fallacies, if any, or just move on.

tidester, host

sandman46 · March 2004

Down here in South Florida, this chain rotates your tires with every oil change, so while the cars up on the lift, they get rotated. Simple and quick. So the most that the tires go is betweem 3k and 4k.
It's a heck of a deal and indeed cheap insurance for me...I have to change the oil anyways!

The Sandman :-)

ruking1 · March 2004

"in this area Sears, and others give free rotation when tires were bought at their store and initial balancing price was paid.

In Cincy area it looks like lifetime rotation and balancing aren't in the competition list anymore. But Sears cheerfully balances and rotates my tires that I bought at NTB (Sears-owned)every 12K or so. I usually rotate myself one time in between. "

I bought the lifetime rotate balance and align package at 75 dollars from Sears (1987)on an suv that I had put on 250k miles before I sold it. I think I got my moneys worth with 5k rotations, balance and alignment.

Never had balance or alignment issues.

In regards to the rotation/non rotation, for lack of the 5/10k rotations you are basically leaving unknown thousands of miles in tire wear on the table. Unless you have money to burn, which you indicate not, why would you do it this way?

If you have a Honda (front wheel drive, front steering, 60/40 to 90/10 front weight bearing and weight shifting) So if one tire on the front is doing the majority of the starting stopping turning transmission handling etc etc do you think this same tire would last longer in back with the reverse situation?

sandman46 · March 2004

I bought this back in 1988 for my Corolla FX and it was the best money I ever spent. I too never had any alignment issues and I used it for close to 9 years. Unfortunately, those Corolla's alignment seemed to go out of whack very easily, so I was one happy camper having the alignment policy...cheap insurance!

The Sandman :-)

driftracer · March 2004

just something I've done forever, preached to my customers, and I didn't understand why someone would be against it.

To each his own, and we certainly have the freedom to make those choices.

robr2 · March 2004

"But Sears cheerfully balances and rotates my tires that I bought at NTB (Sears-owned)every 12K or so." Maybe not anymore - Sears sold NTB to another company.

kyfdx · March 2004

Supposedly larger molecules.. PSI is supposed to remain more constant.. less leakage over time.. And also, supposedly runs cooler than plain air. All of these things together should lead to longer tire life.

All that is from the radio advertisements in Cincinnati.

regards,
kyfdx

tidester · March 2004

Thanks for the info but I think I'll stick with air! :-)

tidester, host

imidazol97 · March 2004

Did they sell NTB? A few years ago they closed stores here and told you they'd take care of things at their Sears auto locations. NTB was the best place I'd found.

For only $4.95 per tire, the Discounter of Tires chain will fill your tires with N2. If you had ever had tires or service from them, it's free!\\

The ads do assure you that it will be OKAY to put in regular air if you're caught needing air away from the tire discounter brand stores. Isn't that great. It's compatible...

Tidester:
How did you do the subscript 2 on N2?

indrgb · March 2004

Anyone: I recently bought a used Intrigue. The front tires looked like they had a little less tread than the back so I had them rotated and balanced. Now I hear a faint chop I think from the front. Is it safe to say that the front are probably out of round? Will this problem just get worse? The tires are goodyear rs-a, which are pricey. I hate to buy new ones when these still have 6/32 of tread. Thanks.

driftracer · March 2004

to begin with, and add some weird wear patterns, and you'll have some noise. Some of the choppiness will go away, but it'll take a while.

There are many choices out there that are much better than the RS-A for handling, treadwear and noise. Search through tires for your car at www.tirerack.com and check out some of the reports from consumers on the Dunlop Sport A2 and several great tires by Bridgestone, Yokohama, and others...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tir- eModel=Avid+Touring&vehicleSearch=true&partnum=26SR6TOUR&- amp;fromCompare1=yes

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tire- Model=P400+Touring&vehicleSearch=true&partnum=26TR6400T&a- mp;fromCompare1=yes

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&- tireModel=Potenza+RE910&vehicleSearch=true&partnum=26TR6R- E910&fromCompare1=yes

All three of these models come in at around $225-275 plus shipping ($20-25). That's loads cheaper than the RS-A, which in the 225/60-16 size is $432 plus shipping.

imidazol97 · March 2004

If you rotate them yourself, try crossing the fronts after 3 or 4,000 and cross the rears too so they don't wear unevenly. That will help grind the fronts smoother faster.

The grinding of the front wheels may take our more of the unevenness if it's not due to uneven build in the tire. Probably if you didn't notice it on the rear, it's not a tire problem, just wear that you're hearing.

hammen2 · March 2004

...I'd suggest avoiding the Dunlops (get my new Traction T/A's tomorrow - happy the 41k mi. SP Sport A2's are coming off my car :-)...

--Robert

hammen2 · March 2004

My Olds dealer rotates the front tires to the back, then the back tires cross the vehicle when they're rotated.

The Pontiac/GMC dealer that services my wife's GTP just swaps the front and back tires (i.e. they always stay on the same side).

The former way seems to make sense to me... is this just Conventional Wisdom? Should I make a point to discuss this with my wife's dealer?

Just asking for input,

--Robert

lobsenza · March 2004

What is the advantage of filling tires with nitrogen?

tidester · March 2004

How did you do the subscript 2 on N2?

Just put what you want scripted between the tags <sub> and </sub> like this: N<sub>2</sub> and it will show up as N₂.

tidester, host

tidester · March 2004

What is the advantage of filling tires with nitrogen?

I still don't get it either. O₂ and N₂ molecules are, in fact, almost exactly the same size, have nearly identical thermal conductivity and heat capacity. O₂ is more chemically reactive than N₂ (not sure exactly what that buys you) and the N₂ molecules move slightly faster at the same temperature (this just means that sound travels a TINY bit faster in pure N₂ than in air which is mostly N₂ anyhow.

Unless I am missing something it's not apparent to me what the advantages are.

tidester, host

bretfraz · March 2004

I can't explain it molecularly but I can tell you that all NASCAR (and I'm sure others) racing teams use compressed nitrogen in their tires and to power their air guns. N₂ doesn't expand like O₂ does when it gets hot. The teams bring their own air tanks to the track every week.

I don't know how the tire dealer is promoting this use but I'll bet it has to do with maintaining consistent air pressures when the tire gets hot.

capriracer · March 2004

There are 3 supposed advantages for the use of nitrogen in tires:

1) The molecule of Nitrogen is fairly large compared to some of the molecules in regular air. That means that air leaking through the tire will be less and replenishment won't be needed as often.

2) Oxygen is excluded and this slows the aging process of the tire (Recent research seems to contradict that!)

3) Nitrogen excludes water vapor, which in some compressed air systems finds its way into the tire. This is both bad for the tire (corrosion of the steel belts) and messes up the orderly pressure buildup (which is something racers pay attention to)

I think this is more hype than fact and derives from the days where racers took nitrogen bottles to power their impact wrenches. They found that the pressure buildups were more predictible when they filled the tires at the track, giving them an advantage. They probably also noticed that their tires didn't crack as quickly (Racing tires use very little antioxidants)

But I think the advantages are overstated.

Hope this helps.

imidazol97 · March 2004

Temperature expansion coefficient of N₂ and O₂ I would have to look up but I doubt they're meaningful in my typical driving.

This same tire company has represented in their radio ads that they are the only REAL Michelin authorized dealer and that others aren't really able to handle problems with your tires. But they wouldn't even look at tire-related pull after they did an alignment on my new tires, X-Ones, unless I paid them for a new tire and if Michelin adjusted a refund to them they would reimburse me.

So I have a bias about this particular company's ethics.

I was curious if some other store elsewhere in the country was using the Nitrogen scam... that's why I posted this.

I've learned that most TV stations copy their special investigative stories from somewhere else or buy the canned story and adjust it to their area. I thought this company may have done the same with nitrogen for consumers. Nobody has said they've heard similar ads in theirpart of the country.

porknbeans · March 2004

I can get air for free at the local gas station. What do they charge for this "improvement"? And although Nitrogen may have less leakage that isn't no leakage, so where do I have to get it refilled and how much is that going to run me. IMO, do like drifty said and check your pressure and rotate your tires. It just sounds awful gimmicky to me for what is best a negligible improvement. Now, I'm just going to take my pet rock and go to the local roller rink.

Tidester, wow nice insight into the chemical makeup/differences between Oxygen and Nitrogen. Yet another facet of the diamond hosts at Edmunds.

I gotta get out more....

kyfdx · March 2004

No point in comparing nitrogen and oxygen.. You don't fill your tires with oxygen now, you use compressed air.. I'M NO SCIENTIST.. but, pure nitrogen could react significantly differently from air in a completely different way than it does from oxygen.

bretfraz has a pretty good point... If NASCAR is using it, it must have some real benefits. Now, that doesn't mean that its still not mostly hype, as far as marketing goes.

regards,
kyfdx

kyfdx · March 2004

The biggest problem with most drivers (I don't think the members here qualify) is lack of regular maintenance and inspections on their cars. If nitrogen maintains the proper pressure longer than air, that would be a major improvement for most people.. Tire Discounters includes it free with tires.. They will inflate your tires for $4.95 each, if you didn't buy them there, but will give you that much as credit on your next set. So, basically, its free.

driftracer · March 2004

where a few ounces of vehicle weight, or 1/2 lb of pressure in your tires can make the difference between running in third place averaging 175.89 mph, and running in first place averaging 176.12 mph, nitrogen makes a difference. And the NASCAR teams and other care teams rely on all the little differences they can get and still remain legal.

Will it make a difference on your Honda Accord? No, but if you really want to spend all your free time researching how to get a .0007% improvement in air holding capability, while spending the money to have nitrogen delivered to your house, knock yourself out.

Thank God this is America and you have the choice to follow your queries.

kyfdx · March 2004

I believe they have been acquired by Tire Kingdom. As near as I can tell, they are not changing their name (at least not yet). I'm not sure what the ownership situation of Tire Kingdom is.

regards,
kyfdx

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