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Comments
For the modern "click" type" this is really a good question. One does not really care if a lug nut is torqued to say 100 ft#'s, but truly just before a 10,000 mile rotation has the lugnut BEEN holding AT 100 ft #'s. I have heard of a Sears digital torque measuring product, and it would make sense that you could get the measurements on loosing, but I do not know for sure.
Installment #1)
" .. However, you almost completely gloss over the consequences of what I have said about the " PLACARD" on my VW Jetta TDI, quoted above .."
I'm unclear about what you mean, but correct me if I am wrong, but your VW's placard says something like:
If you have one passenger use this inflation pressure. If you are fully loaded use that inflation pressure (a higher value).
Perhaps it's because I am familiar with the concepts that this seem obvious to me, but here are the operating principles:
Higher loads require more inflation pressure.
Higher speeds require more inflation pressure.
I'm not sure why the Europeans list multiple pressures, but they do list the circumstances where this is applicable, so it's technically correct - if a bit impractical for use.
" . In prior posts you also gloss over the OEM FORD placard on the Ford Explorer/Firestone debacle, which resulted in TIRE FAILURE. (26 psi was what was placarded?) ."
It was 26 psi. If I am not mistaken, it was the tire that was recalled, not the vehicle. This implies the tire was at fault and not the vehicle's placard.
In fact, Firestone commissioned a study of the tire design and pinpointed the fault in the design as well as the difference in the production process between the various plants where the tires were produced.
I personally did the math with regard to the Explorer's placard and there was enough load capacity at the pressure specified. However, there was no excess capacity (no reserve) and that was the point Firestone was trying to make - that there should have been, particularly considering that it was known that many folks don't maintain the inflation pressure and will allow their tires to run underinflated - some dangerously so.
" .. the math would suggest you AGREE/advocate with 73% of max tire wall pressure .."
Let me state this clearly. I do not agree with ANY percentage. I disagree with the FORMULA, so the percentage is irrelevent.
What I find fault is in the reference in the formula to the pressure written on the sidewall of the tire. The value written there is not consistent among tire manufacturers and is therefore unreliable as a usage inflation or a starting point for a calculation.
So what formula do I advocate? The placard! - provided the same size tire as listed on the placard is used. In this case "same size tire" includes the letters as well as the numbers. The letters "P" and "XL" have meaning and need to be part of the selection process.
Higher loads require more inflation pressure.
Higher speeds require more inflation pressure. "....
What in my post would lead you to believe that I would not be familiar with these same concepts or it was not logical to me? Especially if you look at my methodology, you would see that I apply it!? Is 38 PSI (85% of max sidewall pressure) higher or lower than either 26 psi or 32 psi?
The placard is arrived at BASED upon the calculations of the oem tires recommended which are usually 44 psi max tire sidewall pressure AND some with 51 psi max side wall pressure!!
So whether I or you disagree with this or not: 32/44 is STILL app 73% of max sidewall pressure!!! THE majority of tires ARE max side wall TP of 44 psi!!!
Also I find the Euro placard better to use, for not all transportation is done with say 1 150# or less driver and NO load.When you add in different speeds and loads, I am sure you understand why. The USA's placard tendency and the Ford/Firestone debacle to use one PSI really highlights why the 85% of max sidewall pressure not only make sense, but as you have referenced, it almost a no brainer when that one 150# or less loads up his car with 5 total folks and luggage. 85% of max tire wall pressure or 38 psi has the situation easily covered except for the most extreme circumstances. In the VW Jetta case just add 3 more psi to = 41 psi for max load.
Again, as you know, the problem is usually under inflation that is the cause of tire accidents (over inflation vs under inflation.) But as I have said 85% or 38#'s does not meet the parameters for over inflation.
But not always, and that's the point I am trying to make.
But perhaps I should take a different tack!!
There is a pressure written on the sidewall of every tire. How is that value determined? Is it a test? Is it a calculated value?
And more importantly, why are there different pressures for the same size tire? Don't they have the same load carrying capacity at the same pressure?
www.discounttire.com (Go to direct store site)
225/55/17 - proper upsize for your van.
B/F Goodrich Traction T/A (2nd in its class @ Tire Rack)
60,000 mile touring tire with excellent traction ratings.
$83.00 each at the above site.
Good Luck!
- Alex
Isn't that one of the things I have been saying ALL along!!???
Yes, but I thought we are discussing the meaning of what is written on the sidewall.
I'm still not satisfied. I'm still getting a roar, but bumps are softened and smoother. I'm thinking of going back tomorrow and trying the Cross-Terrain which is what I should have done in the first place. Your praise of this tire is encouraging.
Larry
There are at least 4 different Fortera tires. I originally ordered Fortera Wrangler Silent Armor but when the tireman checked my tires, he asked why I wanted replacements for four perfectly good tires, I told him quiet and comfort were my main concern and he recommmended Fortera Silent Armor, (as against Fortera Wrangler Silent Armor which would be more noisy but much better off-road).
Incidentally, on the side wall of these new tires, it is stated that tire pressure should follow the owner's manual or the vehicle's placard.
Thanks for the input.
I like adhesive weights, despite their tendency to fall off... I think the hammer-on weights are eyesores.
And the obvious question is: Why didn't you turn the tires in when they were recalled (if they were in the recall time interval)?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=Geolandar+H%- 2FT-S+G051&vehicleSearch=true&partnum=27SR6GEOHTSOWL&fromCompare1=yes&place=1
Thanks
What are my options to replace this tire? The only direct size replacement all-season I could find (that was not a $200+ run flat) was the same Firestone Firehawk.
Priorities are-
1. Minimize speedometer error or no error
2. Wet/Snow traction. Need an all-season.
3. Handling
4. Price
5. Quiet
The 195/55/16 size is VERY limited in selection!!
Same size you want, excellant wet and winter traction, though not as good as an "ice tire". It's quiet and wears well on warm dry roads (100,000 km wear warranty). I use the SUV version all year round on my Pathfinder. The SUV version is just a heavier construction version.
It isn't cheap, but you get what you pay for.
Dealer locator here: http://www.nokiantires.com/newsite/map.cfm
a 205/50 is about 1.5% different, still probably within range of not really noticing.
You can check with tire rack (tirerack.com). They can tell you what sizes should fit on the wheel.
Also a good place to compare the choices in any size, although they don't carry ever tire brand.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
In the case where it does indicate the radial high point, close is close enough.
BTW,if the tire has a dot for radial high point, this is a force variation thing - sort of like "loaded runout" - and not related to balance. That is why you can have tires perfectly balanced and still have a vibration.
The OEM tires were surprisingly good - very quiet (I mean VERY quiet) and smooth. Good grip, but I hit the limit quickly on this low center of gravity coupe if I took curves aggressively. No screeching, but it felt like the sidewalls were tucking under.
The Falken replacements have a noticeably stiffer sidewall (H rated performance all season tire vs. the OEM S rated touring tire, so no big surprise); they ride very smoothly on smooth roads (not noticeably out of round or with noticeable "road force" variations) but transmit expansion strip jolts more than the OEM tires; they have slightly faster steering input; they don't feel like they are tucking under in curves, but they do reveal the handling limitations of the stock suspension (now the suspension is at its limit before the tires, before it was vice versa). In terms of noise levels, these are by hands down the most quiet all season performance tires I have had (quieter than Bridgestone 950's) but the OEM tires were actually quieter, making them the quietest tire I have ever owned.
Overall, a nice but not necessary upgrade. The main value is moving from a tire with generally poor reviews on tirerack.com (the Contis) to a tire that won the performance tire shoot-out at Consumer Reports three years ago - and it was competing against some good, better know tires. Based on my experience, the Consumer Reports reviews are more accurate than the consumer reviews on tirerack.com; the Conti OEM on the Cobalt is a real winner, not the dog the consumer reviews would have you believe.
(I drove the Contis in the heavy spring rains we had; I have driven Falken ZE512's in heavy rain on other cars; both are good.)
$188 for four tires from Discount Tires Direct, drop shipped to their sister company Americas Tire Store which installed and Road Force balanced them (Hunter 9700) for $100. The total was much cheaper than my last two tire changes.
I recycled the OEM tires by selling them on Craigslist for $80, so much fun was had by all.
Thanks for suggestions!
Aside from air leaking out, air now has a pathway into the casing of the tire, increasing the probability of a separation.
Be sure they use a plug / patch combination repair. The patch is there to hold the air and reinforce the damaged area, and the plug is there to prevent moisure from getting to the steel belts.
Hope this helps.
You say the OEM S tyre is by far the quietest tyre ... what is an OEM tyre ? Is it a Continental brand or Falken ???
I am after the quietest tyre for my Peugeot 185/65/R14 and am currently running the original Michelin Energy XH1 but they have become very noisy in that they don't absorb any holes or rough surfaces well [especially the front two]
Someone else has recommended the Yokohama AVS dB as it was designed especially for noise reduction. What would you recommend?
kind regards
robbi
I can't comment on European tires for a Peugot. I suspect that tread patterns and speed ratings are different in Europe than over here, even for tires that are sold under the same brand name. You should probably check with a European tyre enthusiast website.
The Yokohams AVS dB is sold as a "quiet" tire, but the versions I have seen over here are "V" rated and V tires are usually stiffer and noiser than more moderately rated tires. So it may be quiet for a performance tire, but not as quiet as a standard passenger tire.
The tires that Consumer Reports top rated, for standard passender (not performance) use over here are the Michelin X DT sold over here ONLY in warehouse stores (Sams, Costco, BJ's) and the Goodyear Assurance Triple Tread. The Triple Tread is probably available in Europe; the X isn't even widely available over here, and may either be exclusive to the USA and the discount warehouses, or may be sold under some totally different name in Europe.
In all season performance tires, the quietest tires at Consumer Reports were the Falkens, at #1; the Bridestone Turanza T (I think, not the H rated version); and the Bridgestone 950 (replaced since then by the 960).
As Consumer Reports points out, "ordinary passenger tires" are starting to handle like performance tires, and "performance all season tires" are starting to ride (soft, quiet) like ordinary passenger tires, so categories are blurring.
But don't forgot, you need to check the inflation pressure more often than that!
I check my tire pressure every week with a precise quick car tire gauge.
On FWD the front wears 4-5 times faster than the backs, so that "excess" rubber is going to be equalized in the same 6K miles that the tires were in their original positions. The idea of rotation is that each tire stays on one position the same number of miles and the wear is equalized among all four tires.
LWhat you need to do is buy your tires at a store that has a lifetime rotation and balancing guarantee and means it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Off topic but to illustrate, My OEM Goodyear LS-H's are at 75,000 miles and with a 10,000 mile rotation cycle on a 2003 VW Jetta TDI. (factory alignment and balance) It truly looks good to go to a min of 100,000 miles. For the purposes of discussion,
(I hate run my fingernails across the chalkboard so to speakl as this drives Capriracer crazy)
but I have run 85% of max tire wall pressure since new or 38 F /36 R psi.
I am as pleasantly surprised as anyone in that the GY LS-H have almost to the owner has been vilified in every VW Jetta TDI topic thread that I follow.
While you do not mention the vehicle, my FWD Jetta tends to run the right side tread (specifically right front tire) faster than the left side tread. It also recommends same side, front to rear : rear to front rotations.
Tires are bought from Tirerack at a good deal & installed by an independent garage, and I have not paid for any lifetime tire rotation.
For Ruking, it is understandable that your right tire tread wears more because it seems that you drive mostly at the slow lane and the slow lane always are not that good condition.
Too funny! While a complete and utter misreading of what I wrote, you might have something there in that the left lane is usually the slow lane as a lot of folks are LLC'ers. The extreme right or "slow lane" is the defacto fast or passing lane.
So most folks do not know, care or even pay attention to this and just replace what is needed when worn.
So in any case, I hope you enjoy your ride!
(I'm usually in the S10 Forum - but I cross posted to here for better visability - Hi all !!)
OK, I've bought the tires and thought I'd give some feedback and ask a question to all on the net ...
- I Purchased qty 4 Toyo A/T open country p235/75R 105S.
Replacing - 4 Good Year Wranglers (R/ST ?) - same size tire (OE) - on a 2002 Sonoma.
- I'd say the Wranglers had a tad more "Rumble" noise. The drive train in the truck is a little more noticable - but I do hear the new tires - suspecting increased air noise from the tread. Not too bad - but there is a difference. Perhaps to the fact the old tires had low tread and the new one have have maximun ...
-Traction seems much bettter -dry and wet - and handling is better.
- Tires are inflated to 34/35 lbs - and the ride is slighty worse on bumps and small holes - but not real worse. I'll try dropping the pressure down to 32 once I'm sure the Alu wheels are not leaking at the rims (I did have them cleaned and coated ..)
Overall - the tire seems OK - but a little more "truckie" and my not be a great fit for an SUV - But usually the SUV's vs the trucks have more body insulation - so perhaps the noise is not noticable...
Now - and my only major concern - when I get up to High way speeds - at about 65 -ish - I get a very slight washboard like vibration. Kinda like you can feel the large tire tread cleats hitting the pavement and making a buzzyou can feel inthe body. Steering Wheel is virtually no vibs - it's partialy noise and partialy feel in the Body. Kinda hard to explain. It "Might" be a minor wheel balance issue - And I'm thinking of having the balance re-checked. But this might not be so ... Again - it's at over 60 MPH (I normally do not hit 70) when I get this - and it is minor. But if I was doing long hours at high speed (which I do not) - it would probably wear on my nerves a little ...
Any comments ??
Regards,
Canufixit
http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/balancer/4159T/index.htm
for an explanation and to find a tire center that has one. Costs $10-20 per wheel, they sometimes have to remount a tire to a different location on the wheel.
Comments on your replacements?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Or I may skip the next two rotations if I like to try some other new tires.
I finally had the chance (due to weather and traffic) to try to do some testing at highway speed ... Vib starts at 60 - is worst at 65-68 and disappears at 70-71 (various different surfaces/pavemnt tried). So I'm convinced it a balance issue as I can "Drive through" the issue.
I'm bringing the truck back to the tire place - and have them check balance and fix it ...
I'll advise!
Thanks,
Canufixit