Snow/Ice winter tires

dudleyr · December 2002

I think you need to buy the green diamond tires, and then let us know how you like them. Every tire maker claims theirs is the best, so that is nothing new and should be taken with a grain of salt. I would be willing to read about any first first hand driving experience, but the fact remains - I will never buy retreads. I wonder why they don't actually make the whole tire!

anonymous02 · December 2002

BREAKING TEST RESULTS

Swedish Road and Transport Institute

ISO Certified Snow Tire Testing Facility

protege_fan · December 2002

What do the numbers represent?

anonymous02 · December 2002

here are some other test results:

http://www.newind.is/engTests.htm#VTI

tidester · December 2002

I didn't realize anyone had problems with broken tires! ;-)

tidester, host

hpulley4 · December 2002

A guy on a MINI list I subscribe to has 195/60R15 Green Diamonds on his MINI. As far as snow, etc. is concerned they seem to work fine but they set off the tire pressure monitor more easily than they should when nothing is wrong with the pressure. The pressure monitor in the MINI actually uses the ABS wheelspin detectors and it assumes that changing wheelspin in situations other than cornering or low traction means a tire is going down. I suspect that the retread tires may not be perfectly matched or balanced -- perhaps they were not mounted properly or perhaps this is 'normal' for retreads in which case the owner's manual warning about not using them in MINIs would be correct. With tire pressure monitors becoming mandatory soon, Green Diamonds will have to do something about this, if indeed it is a problem.

If he rebalances the tires and the problem goes away I'll post again.

anonymous02 · December 2002

????

and mandatory?

????

????????

hpulley4 · December 2002

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/TirePresFinal

anonymous02 · December 2002

That's news to me.

Who pays for that? I doubt the DOT pays. Let me guess, the consumer? Taxpayers? (Oh yeah, the DOT IS taxpayer money!)

anonymous02 · December 2002

Is it just an idiot light on your dash panel? Something for which the fuse can be removed?

I wonder how it will work when you air down your tires to 10-15 PSI for trails.

???

krzyss · December 2002

There are two kinds:
- telematic (?) pressure monitor inside each tire (possibly mounted to the wheel) transmitting pressure to receiver (it can be portable or in the car).
- ABS based - it deducts loss of pressure from different rotating speeds and because of it it might be prone to error. I guess if all 4 tires lose pressure simultanously it wil not detect anything.

Krzys

PS It might not be true, just my knowledge.

idletask · December 2002

about that ABS based stuff. Traction control also uses the same sensors, I wonder how the whole system differentiates a pressure loss from a wheel slippage.

anonymous02 · December 2002

It is useless for those who disable their ABS systems...

(rolls eyes!)

hpulley4 · December 2002

Of course the consumer pays, the same way they pay for other mandatory safety equipment like airbags.

It is a light on the dash. It can be reset at any time by pressing a button so that it doesn't go off after changing wheels, adding or removing air, etc.

How does it tell the difference between traction loss and air loss? I'm not sure myself but I suspect the engineers thought about it for a little while

My car has both traction control (which also has an idiot light in case you don't notice the system kicking in) and a pressure sensor run off the ABS and when I changed wheels & tires the air pressure light went on -- when I am in snow the traction light goes on (flashes) so it seems like they got it right.

If you pull the fuse for ABS then of course you lose traction control and pressure monitoring as well. I like all three systems so I leave the fuse in, thanks!

robr2 · December 2002

...by reading NHTSA's description, it sounds like the indirect systems compare current rotational speed to some average stored in the system. I presume that it will need to be programmed to ignore short differences in the rotational speed to deal with traction loss. If not, the idiot light will come on every few seconds if you are driving a car in snow/ice without traction control.

More than likely, the system will measure differences over a set time period before warning.

tidester · December 2002

I wonder how the whole system differentiates a pressure loss from a wheel slippage.

Why would it have to? Fluctuations from slippage would be transient and readings should be correct when traction is recovered.

tidester, host

idletask · December 2002

"Fluctuations from slippage would be transient and readings should be correct when traction is recovered"

Well, that's the whole problem. Please define "transient"

tidester · December 2002

Please define "transient"

If you're slipping regularly for more than a half hour at a time I don't think you're too concerned about pressure loss! ;-)

tidester, host

theiceman · December 2002

I just got a set of these installed this week on my '00 Bonneville. 225/55/17, V-rated and loaded rated at 101.

So far, they've already outperformed my OE Eagle RSAs on snow, ice and wet - and they seem to be comparable on the dry.

This is almost unthinkable - a performance V-rated* all-season which also carries the severe service emblem. Perfect for a guy like me who doesn't like to switch to snows for the winter.

I am very impressed.

the (well-named) iceman

*note the V rating is rare for WRs - most sizes earn a T or H rating; mine just happens to be V-rated.

Oh yeah, and a few other points:
Nokian lists the WR as both an all weather and a winter tire - whereas they list the NRV (with which I was more familiar)exclusively as an all-weather tiredon't go by the tire sizes you find on the web - Nokian is constantly adding new ones to their list. I couldn't find mine on any list I found on the web.there are two WR classes - the WR and the WR SUV - with the latter tending to be higher profile and higher load ratings.

morris24 · January 2003

I live in PA and we are currently getting more snow and ice than we've had in several years. Maybe I got spoiled, but it's giving me a heart attack. My 2002 Subaru seems to fishtail a lot and I'm wondering whether it's because the factory tires aren't good enough. Let me know what kind of tires you are using that seem good in the bad weather. Thanks in advance.

hpulley4 · January 2003

AWD helps you spread the traction around to four wheels instead of two while accelerating but doesn't actually improve the traction of your tires, especially when braking and cornering. Snow/ice tires do a much better job of holding the road under winter conditions than all-seasons and OEM tires are often quite poor (why they skimp on the tires I don't know, but they do).

I've had good results with Dunlop WinterSports on my MINI Cooper and Michelin Arctic Alpins on my Saturn LW200 here in southern Ontario where we are also getting more snow than usual (sort of north across the lake from PA). Others have reported good results with Bridgestone Blizzaks and Nokian Hakkalipettas so there many good snow/ice tires to choose from.

cdnp5 · January 2003

morris24 -- get some snows for that Subie. I drive with snows on my P5 and find the difference worth every penny. I can toss my car around and it keeps coming back for more. Stopping and starting have improved greatly also. I had the opportunity to drive my cousins Legacy with Dunlop snows on it and it was amazing. I was driving it in a major snow storm before the roads were plowed and the car handled like there really wasn't any snow at all. I was very impressed with both the Subie and the snow tires. Liked to have more time with that car in the snow as it could be a lot of fun.

dudleyr · January 2003

get some snows. Also take a look at the Dunlop Graspic DS-2 (?). They had the best snow and ice traction according to Consumer Reports, and are very affordable.

pluto5 · January 2003

http://www.clf.org/pubs/snowtire.htm

wnichols · January 2003

Just put these in 98H 225/60-16 on my Grand Marquis. Just waiting for snow now. Already like them better than the OEM Goodyears.

theiceman · January 2003

I've had my Nokian WRs on almost two months now - on ice, snow, wet, and dry, these things are super grippy.

Definitely the best winter-performing all-season I've ever had.

ice

gened1 · January 2003

If you are still hanging around this board I need to know.
When last I heard (Last year)you were riding on Goodrich m65 or something like that as new tires. I was wondering why you are now looking for new tires. And yes the Nokians seem to be my next tire but I am going to wear out the Bridgestones on my Forester first.

caperosier · February 2003

OEM on Foresters. Bad choice: worn at 25K, poor in any kind of winter weather (slush, ice, snow, mush, salt mix), heavy rain.
Subaru has no comment on the choice for an AWD all-weather car. Replaced with Michelin Symmetry. So far, so good in a more typical northern New England winter here in Downeast Maine. Not as good as our Nokians, but safe and more durable than Duelers for all season compromise.

geoffdgti · March 2003

The Nokian web site is really out of date. There's a dealer in Colorado who has scanned the 2001-2002 product guide. It's still not up to date but it at least gives more tire sizes.

http://www.meadowcreektire.com/nokian/index.htm

I've been looking for winter tires for my new 2003 Mountaineer. I'm thinking I'll put 245/70R16 studded Hakkas on it. I have 17" wheels on it at the moment and there aren't many options in 245/65R17.

geoffdgti · March 2003

In the process of surfing looking for up-to-date information about the Nokian product line, I learned:

Nokia (the cell phone company from Finland) sold their 18% stake in Nokian to Bridgestone January 24, 2003.

Nokian is rolling out a Hakka 4 studded snow tire with an improved square stud system. They claim it works much better at retaining studs and that it works much better on dry paved roads.

adp3 · March 2003

Is it just a downright stupid idea, for a driver in the SF Bay Area, to put different tires on his SUV (or AWD wagon, for example) for the winter months than he uses the other 9 months of the year? Maybe use a tire that gives better mileage and "every day" performance from March-November, but put some deeper tread/"snow" tires on for December-February to improve performance in snow country. I know some of you folks are doin gthis, but does it make sense in the Bay Area?

pluto5 · March 2003

Is it worth it to spend a couple hundred bucks at tirerack to save a $500+ deductible in an avoidable accident?

robr2 · March 2003

Where do you drive in the winter? Do you go to Tahoe or have deal with snow often? If so, you may want to consider a dedicated set of snow tires mounted on spare rims. IMHO, it's better than chains or cables to basically not have to worry about the tires.

Nokian makes one tire that is all season and has the snowflake emblem. The Michelin Arctic Alpic is a compromise tire that wears well on non-snow/ice covered roads.

Good luck in your decision.

protege_fan · March 2003

They prefer to call them "all-weather" tires to differentiate them from "all-seasons" (ie. all-seasons aren't "mountain-snowflake" certified whereas all-weathers are).

I have the NRWs and they did fantastic for me up here in The Great White North.

dudleyr · March 2003

I agree the NRW makes a lot of sense to use if you don't encounter a lot of snow, but do need occasional winter tire traction. Not gonna find it at Sams club though!

robr2 · April 2003

Nokian's website (at least North America) doesn't show that the NRW has the snowflake designation and the WR says it's an SUV tire. Hence I was a bit confused.

protege_fan · April 2003

I know...it's confused me as well. I've read on a few sites that the WR is replacing the NRW. I'm certain I saw the mountain snowflake on the NRW's on their site though. This was about half-a-year ago though...maybe they've switched things up.

Actually, I just went to their site (www.nokian.com) and noticed that the WR's are listed as winter passenger vehicle tires. They don't even list the NRW's under their current products (at least not that I can find).

Ah...now if you goto the North American site (http://www.nokiantires.com/indexen.html), they have the NRW's, but no WR's. Very confusing.

adp3 · April 2003

thanks for the replies - I did mean my post as a real question, not as any sort of jab at folks who are doing this.

I live in the SF Bay Area, so only deal with snow about once a month in the winter on drives up to Tahoe (and then while I am there). I did not realize that good snow tires are a better idea than chains (or Spike's Spiders). Sounds like having a set of snow tires mounted on wheels makes sense. It's probably just as easy to change 4 tires as it is to mount my Spike's Spiders.

So, keep the "stock" tires on for most of the year, and then go to the snows on a weekend to weekend basis in the winter, eh?

I wonder if they have a rim that looks like a snowflake?

:-)

dudleyr · April 2003

The NRW does have the mountain ans snowflake symbol, and should do very well in snow and ice.

Go to the link below and click on NRW there is a scanned brochure.

http://www.meadowcreektire.com/nokian/index.htm

You wouldn't have to put the snows on every weekend, you could put them on before your first trip up the mountains, and take them off after the season ends. They are fine as an all weather tire too. If you are going to put them on for the weekend you could get a more dedicated snow tire than the NRW, or a studded tire, since there is no need to compromise.

adp3 · April 2003

yeah, that's the dilemna - I'd want a tire that is good enough so that I don't need chains to supplement it when I go to Tahoe

but perhaps those aren't the tires I want to drive on during the week in balmy Palo Alto

adp3 · April 2003

I am assuming this is a good idea even if the vehicle is AWD or 4WD, is that correct?

I'm thinking of doing this with my next car, which may be an XC90, Caddilac SRX or Chrylser Pacifica. (don't worry - I won't take offense when you guys make fun of me and my car choices)

protege_fan · April 2003

Both AWD/4WD are good for getting you moving, but don't help in making you stop. That's where I think the benefits of winter tires really shine.

theiceman · April 2003

...is the ticket. It is an "all weather plus" tire according to Nokian's brochure - as some of you have pointed out. And, yes, they carry the mountain snowflake emblem.

There are indeed two WRs: one is a passenger car tire and the other is an SUV tire. The two are distinguished from one another based mostly on load rating. I put 4 225/55/17s WRs on my '00 Bonneville - these are passenger tires which have a 101 load rating and are V-rated for speed. In contrast, the only other 55 series 17" WR is an SUV tire. It has a 255 wide tread - a beefier tire all around - and is rated higher for load (at 104) but lower for speed (at H). Both consistent with SUV parameters.

Nokian invests a lot of resources in northern tire research but little in marketing - it seems that they're not interested in being big, just in being the best in their niche. I think their terribly inadequate websites reflect this rather accurately.

BTW - 8,000 kms on the WRs through an Ottawa, Ontario winter and have to say that these were a dream to drive on. The plus side apparently is that the rubber compound in the WR is also supposed to be wear-friendly. That negates the need to have two sets of wheels to alternate between - you know, for those Tahoe weekends.

pluto5 · April 2003

Most of the other brands are too expensive IMO and unnecessary. Esp. if you have 2-3 vehicles to equip. Also I would think twice about buying extra rims cause they are a pain to carry. Wal-Mart or Costco will mount your winter tires and give you lifetime balancing for less than $50.

theiceman · April 2003

It depends on where you drive and what kind of driving you do but, on the whole and for the average driver, I cannot take issue with your last post. There are others, though, for whom performance in a variety of conditions is important - as is comfort, noise, wear, etc. Unfortunately, the information we get from the industry and reviewers is far from perfect and helps us little in selecting our rubber. Tirerack is a good source of information - but only for those brands it carries. CR is another decent source (again, far from complete and rarely very useful for the performance-minded).

Sadly, I think too few people give any thought to their tires - either in choosing a tire or in maintaining them or replacing them at proper intervals for their driving needs. Unfortunately, tires are easily the most critical safety components of our cars which is subject the most rapid degree of wear. Because of that, I'd never criticize anybody for maintaining their car - even if it means spending "unnecessarily" on their tires. Conversely, I know of people who pay prestige marque "performance" cars and who, at tire replacement time, buy their tires on sale at Sears.

"All seasons, don't you know - and they were 30% off..."

robr2 · April 2003

IMHO, a second set of rims for snow tires are worthwhile.

First - it keeps my alloys out of the winter weather.

Second - will Wal-Mart or Costco dismount/mount my tires every spring and fall forever for a single $50 charge?

Third - steel rims are fairly cheap - for about $120 I got 4 rims.

Again just MHO.

geoffdgti · April 2003

robr2 writes:
IMHO, a second set of rims for snow tires are worthwhile.

First - it keeps my alloys out of the winter weather.

Second - will Wal-Mart or Costco dismount/mount my tires every spring and fall forever for a single $50 charge?

Third - steel rims are fairly cheap - for about $120 I got 4 rims.

I do the same thing. I bought slightly used set of 15" VW steel rims and hub caps from somebody who had upgraded to alloy wheels. Saved wear and tear on my alloy wheels and makes it much easier to swap twice a year. Last spring, I swapped tires myself in a parking lot after I couldn't get any of the local tire shops to sneak me in.

I have ~22,000 miles on my Nokian Hakka Q studless friction tires on the VW and I have at least one more season left on them. I am very happy with their ice and snow performance and the wear has been excellent. I spend a lot of time on dry roads at 80 mph. The road noise is typical for a snow tire (lousy) and the handling is typical of a soft sidewall tire (lousy). Blizzaks don't wear this well and I get near-Blizzak ice grip.

I just bought some slightly used alloy wheels for my 2003 Mountaineer on Ebay for $350. Not quite the same deal as my steelies for the VW but it's still a pretty good value and they're clones of what is already on the car. The studded 235/65R17 Hakkapeliitta SUVs will fit on them perfectly. It's nice to finally have some decent snow tire options for SUVs. I've owned them for 17 years and their braking and cornering characteristics on slippery roads leave something to be desired. Not particularly surprising when you run stock A/T tires on a 5,000 pound truck. It will be nice to pick up the extra safety margin in emergency handling.

For people complaining about the lousy Nokian web site, they're supposed to be upgrading it for May. Until that happens, the search engines find some Nokian pages that aren't accessable from their stale site that talk about the WR and Hakka 2. This information is also stale but it's better than what is up officially on their site.

Nokia Hakkapeliitta SUV

Nokian Hakkapeliitta 1

Nokian Hakkapeliitta 2

Nokian WR

adp3 · April 2003

so it appears, provided you can get a decent set of rims cheap, is....how the hell do you store an extra set of tires in these puny garages they build for you in the SF Bay Area?!!

:-)

obviously, you don't carry the extra set around in the back of the minivan

if I go with the approach suggested by iceman, will I still need chains/spiders on a trip up to Tahoe in a FWD minivan? (I suspect that no matter what tires I am on, the CHP will require me to slap chains on, unless I am in a 4wd/AWD rig)

adp3 · April 2003

I don't mind having two sets, if one set is "good" for 9-10 months a year, and will give me better performance (mpg, noise, handling) than the "snow" set - and then keep the snow set on for ski season (with poor mpg, handling, etc., in comparison to the 3-season set)

pluto5 · April 2003

I admit that having the winter tires mounted is appealing, especially if you have room in your garage. Winter weather hasn't seemed to affect my alloy wheels yet. However, Wal-Mart will mount your carry in tires for 3.50 per wheel after you pay for the lifetime balancing. So, first time $44 for all four in my neighborhood, $14 for four each year after that--pretty cheap but they use a torque wrench which I don't see at other tire shops anymore. I believe that Costco is similar although not sure about the lifetime balance. As far as selection, I found that tirerack has much better selection than any local tire dealer and tirerack service is super (no i don't work for them. IMO every one needs winter tires if you have winter.

Snow/Ice winter tires

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