Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

robr2 · May 2015

ab348 said:

graphicguy said:

Cadillac CT6 will top out the Cadillac range. The XTS is based on a FWD platform and can be had as AWD. Never drove one. See them on the road quite a bit, though. I drove a Lincoln MKZ when Lincoln gave me $50-$75 to do a test drive. Not a bad car...not at all. I think the one you are looking at is the next level up.

I know Lincoln is trying hard to transition their customer base. Cadillac is a little further along in that regard. And, it's not come without some pain....letting their old customers go, while simultaneously getting a different customer base to sell to. Tough gig. Cadillac seems bound and determined to stay the course with the transition. Let's see if Lincoln is willing to do the same.
I believe the XTS is the only Cadillac car (Escalade excepted) that is built on a shared GM platform. The others are unique to Cadillac.

Lincolns are are thinly-disguised versions of existing Ford platforms. The MKZ is a Fusion, the MKS is a Taurus, and the two SUVs are Escape and Flex-based. That has been a problem for them as many customers see that and wonder why they are paying so much more.

The Alpha platform which underpins the ATS and the CTS will be used for the 2016 Camaro.

The Omega platform which is being used on the CT6 is expected to be used by a possible Buick RWD/AWD full size sedan (aka Avenir) and a Cadillac crossover.

By 2025, GM plans to be down to only 4 platforms versus the 26 now they had last year.

Platform sharing is not the same as badge engineering. The most important thing about platform sharing is that they have certain hard points (pedal box placement, firewall location, front wheel location, windshield rake, assembly line robot points) that allow multiple models to be made on a shared assembly line. After that, the sky is the limit.

dino001 · May 2015

Sorry, the page doesn't allow removal of once posted comments. I wanted to make a small edit in my previous post, but ended up putting a new one with repeated content. Then the correction also went wrong, hence I had to "null" it twice.

robr2 · May 2015

abacomike said:
@ab348 said:

"Lincolns are are thinly-disguised versions of existing Ford platforms. The MKZ is a Fusion, the MKS is a Taurus, and the two SUVs are Escape and Flex-based. That has been a problem for them as many customers see that and wonder why they are paying so much more."

I test-drove the MKZ and really did not like it. I also test-drove the Taurus and did not like the fact that the center console "swooped" up into the front dashboard making me feel clostrophic. If the Lincoln MKS has the same interior design as the Taurus, I will scratch it off my list of possible replacement vehicles for next year.

Unfortunately, the CTS is too small for my comfort up front. As for the XTS, if they are eventually dropping it from the line, that would mean little, if any, upgrading in engine, handling, and perhaps technology.

My understanding is the XTS will see upgrades but there won't be an all new model. The XTS was always intended to be a stop gap model that could keep some of Cadillac's existing customers (both retail and livery) happy while they transitioned to the new models including the CT6 which will be launched this fall.

The CT6 will be bigger than the CTS so you may to check it out.

stever · May 2015

And housekeeping came along and swept 'em away.

Interesting comments about Subaru. Another link (that I've lost) put Subaru sales a bit ahead of VW in a recent reporting period. That's seems pretty amazing when you think about how much bigger VW is worldwide (but maybe not so much comparing VW to Fuji Industries).

@isellhondas, you just put "rare" in the ad and you find a MT buyer right away who buys your car at a premium since MTs are hard to find.

abacomike · May 2015

Thanks, Rob, I did not know the CT6 was coming out this fall. I will definitely give it a look-see!

dino001 · May 2015

stever said:
And housekeeping came along and swept 'em away.

Interesting comments about Subaru. Another link (that I've lost) put Subaru sales a bit ahead of VW in a recent reporting period. That's seems pretty amazing when you think about how much bigger VW is worldwide (but maybe not so much comparing VW to Fuji Industries).

@isellhondas, you just put "rare" in the ad and you find a MT buyer right away who buys your car at a premium since MTs are hard to find.

But it does cut both ways. If that buyer walks away, you may need to wait another three months, so premium pricing has to be in line with motivation of those "rare" people. We all want it all - low prices AND lots of choice, AND convenience, AND premium feel. Turns out it can't really be done all. I once heard a great saying that in life you usually have three main goals (like good, cheap, plentiful), from which you need to choose two to maximize at cost of the third.

abacomike · May 2015

I just did some quick research on the 2016 Cadillac CT6 on the web. Beautiful looking car and the interior looks first class. Definitely will be interested in that car.

I'll check it out with a close friend of mine who works for one of our local Cadillac Dealerships. Maybe I can get some more specifics from him with better photos of the interior and exterior.

Thanks again Rob.

robr2 · May 2015

More proud Dad moments:

My daughter scored her second goal of the year on her JV lacrosse team. I've got to give her credit. She is a 3 season athlete (volleyball, gymnastics, lacrosse), works hard in school, is in the marching band, and an overall good kid.

My son ran the mile at an invitational meet this weekend. His hope was to have a competitive race. Alas, that did not work out as the #2 seed had a horrible race. On the positive side, he ran a 4:29.88 mile and set a new record for this meet.

abacomike · May 2015

robr2 said:

More proud Dad moments: My daughter scored her second goal of the year on her JV lacrosse team. I've got to give her credit. She is a 3 season athlete (volleyball, gymnastics, lacrosse), works hard in school, is in the marching band, and an overall good kid. My son ran the mile at an invitational meet this weekend. His hope was to have a competitive race. Alas, that did not work out as the #2 seed had a horrible race. On the positive side, he ran a 4:29.88 mile and set a new record for this meet.

Kids sure can add so much more excitement and gratification to one's life, can't they? Congrats!

dino001 · May 2015

Fuji's market cap is a quarter of VW's ($23B vs $100B+). Enterprise value would be a better measure, which is add debt and subtract cash. VW has enormous debt (around its market cap), Fuji's debt is very small ($2B). So based on enterprise value, its a David $25B vs. Golliath $200B. However, if VW has so much debt, they essentially have to keep the sales, or else. There is not room for "transitions", "difficulties", or even just a mild recession.

Michaell · May 2015

dino001 said:
Fuji's market cap is a quarter of VW's ($23B vs $100B+). Enterprise value would be a better measure, which is add debt and subtract cash. VW has enormous debt (around its market cap), almost Fuji very small ($2B). So based on enterprise value, its a David $25B vs. Golliath $200B. However, if VW has so much debt, they essentially have to keep the sales, or else. There is not room for "transitions", "difficulties", or even just a mild recession.

Whereas Fuji (Subaru) is in a much better position to deal with the minor ups and downs of the market.

And, to me, Subaru has a laser focus on their market position. VW may be trying to be many things in different markets.

isellhondas · May 2015

stever said:
And housekeeping came along and swept 'em away.

Interesting comments about Subaru. Another link (that I've lost) put Subaru sales a bit ahead of VW in a recent reporting period. That's seems pretty amazing when you think about how much bigger VW is worldwide (but maybe not so much comparing VW to Fuji Industries).

@isellhondas, you just put "rare" in the ad and you find a MT buyer right away who buys your car at a premium since MTs are hard to find.

That's true but finding that buyer can be very difficult.

I remember people hounding Honda to make Accord V-6 coupes with manuals. They finally did come out with V-6 six speed coupes. They sold a few but not very many. Then people would say that they would buy them if they were sedans and not coupes. So, Honda dicided to make a few V-6 sedans. They force fed every dealer two of them. Ours sat for nearly a year unsold. We finally got a call to dealer trade one and the other eventually sold. Honda discontinued production after that.

So, tell me how popular sticks are.

dino001 · May 2015

isellhondas said:

stever said:
And housekeeping came along and swept 'em away.

Interesting comments about Subaru. Another link (that I've lost) put Subaru sales a bit ahead of VW in a recent reporting period. That's seems pretty amazing when you think about how much bigger VW is worldwide (but maybe not so much comparing VW to Fuji Industries).

@isellhondas, you just put "rare" in the ad and you find a MT buyer right away who buys your car at a premium since MTs are hard to find.
That's true but finding that buyer can be very difficult.

I remember people hounding Honda to make Accord V-6 coupes with manuals. They finally did come out with V-6 six speed coupes. They sold a few but not very many. Then people would say that they would buy them if they were sedans and not coupes. So, Honda dicided to make a few V-6 sedans. They force fed every dealer two of them. Ours sat for nearly a year unsold. We finally got a call to dealer trade one and the other eventually sold. Honda discontinued production after that.

So, tell me how popular sticks are.

I'm sure your experience is accurate. There is a big difference between what people say and what they actually do. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "Oh, you have a manual - how great, I'd get one, but ..." The absolute top excuse is "wife won't let me".

American man likes an appearance of conformance to prevailing "manly" image (like be able to drive a stick shift and declaring oneself as "wanting one"), but they also want their wives to provide a get out of jail free card when they get "caught" on doing such "unmanly" things, like driving automatics (minivans, especially), watching figure skating, romance dramas on TV

nyccarguy · May 2015

dino001 said:
Fuji's market cap is a quarter of VW's ($23B vs $100B+). Enterprise value would be a better measure, which is add debt and subtract cash. VW has enormous debt (around its market cap), Fuji's debt is very small ($2B). So based on enterprise value, its a David $25B vs. Golliath $200B. However, if VW has so much debt, they essentially have to keep the sales, or else. There is not room for "transitions", "difficulties", or even just a mild recession.

And Fuji Heavy Industries largest investor?

Toyota

Michaell · May 2015

nyccarguy said:

dino001 said:
Fuji's market cap is a quarter of VW's ($23B vs $100B+). Enterprise value would be a better measure, which is add debt and subtract cash. VW has enormous debt (around its market cap), Fuji's debt is very small ($2B). So based on enterprise value, its a David $25B vs. Golliath $200B. However, if VW has so much debt, they essentially have to keep the sales, or else. There is not room for "transitions", "difficulties", or even just a mild recession.
And Fuji Heavy Industries largest investor?

Toyota

I knew they partnered for the BRZ/GT86, but didn't realize that Toyota held a large block of shares as well.

dino001 · May 2015

It's still something like 16%. Toyota doesn't "own" Subaru, just has some stake in it. It's significant, but not decisive. BTW, it was some kind of deal with GM, who had around 20% prior the big crisis. Toyota bought part of it, I don't know where the rest went, on the open market, or perhaps bought back by FHI themselves.

From what I read, the cultures are much more compatible than in previous arrangement. It's not just Japanese vs. American. GM had a mindset of a predatory parasite - share nothing, steal what you can. Toyota is much more cooperative, "I help you, you help me" kind of way. So I heard, anyway.

jayrider · May 2015

abacomike said:
@stever:

"Anyone shopping this weekend?"

As long as I am alive, I'm always shopping! Just not interested in buying right now or in the near future.

I am intrigued by the new Lincoln MKS Sedan. Something I might take a look at in the next month or two. They MSRP for about $52,000 which is significantly less than a Mercedes or BMW. I am just not a great fan of FWD, but they do make an AWD. We'll have to see if it meets my needs and desires. Another one I am considering is the big Cadillac XTS, but I heard rumors they may drop it from the line.

Unless you have budget concerns, nothing is like an MB. Look for the fun but come home to Papa. You won't be disappointed. The way you take care of your cars, you could easily make this one last a lifetime. You will need to reboot your brain to find pleasure in keeping what you have. Good luck !

abacomike · May 2015

@jayrider

Right you are, jayrider, right you are. But everytime I look at another new car, it just isn't the same as what I drive now. But that new CT6 is most intriguing. When they arrive at dealers later this summer and I get a chance to try one on for size, I may be right back where I started - in my E400.

"...the grass is always greener...until you get to the other side and look back and find your side was even greener!"

henryn · May 2015

dino001 said:

American man likes an appearance of conformance to prevailing "manly" image (like be able to drive a stick shift and declaring oneself as "wanting one"), but they also want their wives to provide a get out of jail free card when they get "caught" on doing such "unmanly" things, like driving automatics (minivans, especially), watching figure skating, romance dramas on TV

I don't need a wife to provide "cover" for watching figure skating. Those girls are HOT!!!

stever · May 2015

We test drove a manual Scion last year. My wife got back into the swing of it much faster than I did.

The rod in her left leg (skiing) deters us from buying an automatic now, at least one for our primary car.

stickguy · May 2015

I've never had a problem selling my sticks. Especially the integra. Phone rang off hook on that. But the various sedans sold quick too.

Used, supply and demand are in equilibrium. Fewer for sale but smaller pool of buyers.

The problem was always finding good used ones!

suydam · May 2015

I've sold both autos and sticks. If they aren't a sporty car no one wants a manual. Aged Buick -- sold in a day. Newer Mazda 626 -- even the cute one with the hatch -- took a month, and then the buyer had to learn how to drive it. Just my experience. Many of the teens buying the older cars don't have experience with a stick shift. And that was years ago so I can only assume it's even more pronounced now.

stever · May 2015

Time to retread the old joke about how driving a manual means no one will ever be able to borrow your car and no crook will be able to hop in and go joy riding in it.

Michaell · May 2015

stever said:
Time to retread the old joke about how driving a manual means no one will ever be able to borrow your car and no crook will be able to hop in and go joy riding in it.

Two of my three kids can drive stick ... the boys, of course. Though they both drive automatics currently.

Tried teaching the step daughter in a 2003 Focus hatch; she just never got the hang of it. Wife drove stick pretty much exclusively until we met; the '99 Expedition was her first automatic.

ab348 · May 2015

dino001 said:

IIRC, Subaru was the only brand that did not see a sales drop in 2008-2010 period. They have a very stable customer base, generally people well off enough to buy twice as expensive vehicles, but electing to go for less. They don't have to rely on "marginal" customer that flees at any sign of trouble, whether their own, or economy. Such base is not vulnerable to whims of the economy, styling, or latest trends.

Subaru is also what one can describe the safest model line of all brands, period. They target to ace every single new IIHS test before other guys become even aware of it. The story is always the same - many brands get decent grades on existing tests, but when IIHS introduces a new one, half of them fail miserably, rest passes marginally, Subaru aces it from the get go. [various snips for length follow]

Subaru dealers are keen to point those things out, of course, plus Consumer Reports data having them consistently in top five of most reliable brands, with a few years in the past of being in a lead.

Curiously, JD Powers doesn't place Subaru anywhere near their top marks, I always wondered why. My theory is JD Powers focuses on different aspects, plus reading their actual results I quickly concluded they extrapolate data from insufficient samples; My favorite was giving Subaru Legacy GT, then one of the fastest popular midsize cars (that turbo was viciously fast) "below average" (on acceleration, which was a clear extrapolation from the base model.

Subaru customers certainly tend to be very loyal, so their cars must satisfy what those people are looking for. As someone who has driven a few but never been particularly enthused about buying one, I would say the following reasons are why that is for me:

1. They may be safe, but they do not FEEL robust in construction. Doors feel light, the frameless glass feels rattly, just not a quality feel.
2. Interiors are hit and miss. Lots of black plastic, can look cheap inside.
3. They are at a higher price point because of AWD, but don't necessarily look like they are anything more than an econobox inside.
4. They have a reputation of being expensive to own outside of warranty.
5. Their engines, while apparently improved in recent years, sound and feel rough, almost agricultural, and have had some serious design problems in terms of head gasket failure and piston slap.
6. Exterior styling is love it or leave it. Some models look good, others are odd.

But even with all that, their customers keep coming back and they are attracting new ones.I suspect if they moved to a more mainstream design they would lose a lot of their existing customer base, who seem to me to be a lot of the descendants of those who bought Saabs and Volvos in the '60s and '70s.

Michaell · May 2015

ab348 said:

dino001 said:

IIRC, Subaru was the only brand that did not see a sales drop in 2008-2010 period. They have a very stable customer base, generally people well off enough to buy twice as expensive vehicles, but electing to go for less. They don't have to rely on "marginal" customer that flees at any sign of trouble, whether their own, or economy. Such base is not vulnerable to whims of the economy, styling, or latest trends.

Subaru is also what one can describe the safest model line of all brands, period. They target to ace every single new IIHS test before other guys become even aware of it. The story is always the same - many brands get decent grades on existing tests, but when IIHS introduces a new one, half of them fail miserably, rest passes marginally, Subaru aces it from the get go. [various snips for length follow]

Subaru dealers are keen to point those things out, of course, plus Consumer Reports data having them consistently in top five of most reliable brands, with a few years in the past of being in a lead.

Curiously, JD Powers doesn't place Subaru anywhere near their top marks, I always wondered why. My theory is JD Powers focuses on different aspects, plus reading their actual results I quickly concluded they extrapolate data from insufficient samples; My favorite was giving Subaru Legacy GT, then one of the fastest popular midsize cars (that turbo was viciously fast) "below average" (on acceleration, which was a clear extrapolation from the base model.
Subaru customers certainly tend to be very loyal, so their cars must satisfy what those people are looking for. As someone who has driven a few but never been particularly enthused about buying one, I would say the following reasons are why that is for me:

1. They may be safe, but they do not FEEL robust in construction. Doors feel light, the frameless glass feels rattly, just not a quality feel.
2. Interiors are hit and miss. Lots of black plastic, can look cheap inside.
3. They are at a higher price point because of AWD, but don't necessarily look like they are anything more than an econobox inside.
4. They have a reputation of being expensive to own outside of warranty.
5. Their engines, while apparently improved in recent years, sound and feel rough, almost agricultural, and have had some serious design problems in terms of head gasket failure and piston slap.
6. Exterior styling is love it or leave it. Some models look good, others are odd.

But even with all that, their customers keep coming back and they are attracting new ones.I suspect if they moved to a more mainstream design they would lose a lot of their existing customer base, who seem to me to be a lot of the descendants of those who bought Saabs and Volvos in the '60s and '70s.

Good observations, ab. Now that we are 2 months into ownership of our first Subaru, I have some counter-arguments.

1. When was the last time you rode in or drove a Subaru?
2. When was the last time you rode in or drove a Subaru?
3. When was the last time you rode in or drove a Subaru?
4. After 2 months, I can't respond to that
5. When was the last time you rode in or drove a Subaru?
6. Agreed - but that's true of any make / model

While your comments were probably true a generation or two ago, I don't think they are true with the current generation of cars.

The frameless window design is history, the interior of the two 2015 Subaru's I've been in (our Outback 3.6R Limited and the CrossTrek XV I had as a loaner) are decently equipped (our Outback, with Navigation and touch screen, is the equal of your CUE system). Yes, standard AWD makes them more expensive, but I've seen Impreza's that sticker for the same price as an equivalent Focus, Cruze or (my) Elantra GT.

We did purchase, at my wife's insistence, an extended warranty, so I won't have any feedback on maintenance costs for many years.

The engines sound different because they are different - boxer engines rather than in-line or V configuration. Again, it's a matter of personal preference. Given the clientele, nobody expects these engines to be as smooth as a BMW inline 6. We do like the effortless power our 6-cylinder engine provides, especially after 4 years of a laggy 4-cylinder turbo in the CX-7 we had.

Last point - here in Colorado, values of used Subarus are crazy stupid high. Within 10 miles of me, there are exactly 3 Subarus for sale under $10,000 - one of them has 160,000 miles on it, the other 223,000 miles. Even cars that are 10 years old with roughly 100K on the clock routinely sell for $10,000, give or take.

dino001 · May 2015

I can attest to rattly feel of Subaru's frameless doors on older models, especially with windows down. However, the frameless doors are all but gone. Funny thing, frameless doors was something that allowed the pillars being much more massive, providing better safety cage for the cabin. But it didn't "feel" robust.

They moved to mainstream long time ago. It's actually what made me ditch them. I liked the older Legacy, smaller, wild, fast (GT). The new one is just too much Camry. However, if I had to buy (mid)inexpensive Japanese midsize sedan, I probably would not go with anything else.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2015

At least they became somewhat better looking. For years and years I wondered if Subaru even had a styling department. I've owned 2 of them in the past and I was pretty satisfied.

I guess their BRZ has been a sales flop---too bad.

roadburner · May 2015

robr2 said:
More proud Dad moments:

My daughter scored her second goal of the year on her JV lacrosse team. I've got to give her credit. She is a 3 season athlete (volleyball, gymnastics, lacrosse), works hard in school, is in the marching band, and an overall good kid.

My son ran the mile at an invitational meet this weekend. His hope was to have a competitive race. Alas, that did not work out as the #2 seed had a horrible race. On the positive side, he ran a 4:29.88 mile and set a new record for this meet.

Congrats! My son had a couple of good basketball and soccer seasons; I was so blessed to be able to attend almost all his games games. Too bad so many parents don't think that is important.

roadburner · May 2015

isellhondas said:

So, tell me how popular sticks are.

I really think it depends on the car; since I've been looking at ponycars I've been pleasantly surprised by how eay it it is to find manuals- new OR used. And I like the fact that Ford and Mazda don't offer an automatic in their hot hatches.
In one of the old Town Hall Mazda threads some doofus was complaining bitterly that you couldn't get an MS3 with a slushbox- and plaintively asked, "Can someone give me one good reason why you can't get a Mazdaspeed 3 with an automatic?"
He really went off when I responded, "Probably because it weeds out the poseurs."

dino001 · May 2015

roadburner said:

In one of the old Town Hall Mazda threads some doofus was complaining bitterly that you couldn't get an MS3 with a slushbox- and plaintively asked, "Can someone give me one good reason why you can't get a Mazdaspeed 3 with an automatic?"
He really went off when I responded, "Probably because it weeds out the poseurs."

You like to live dangerously my friend, LOL

roadburner · May 2015

dino001 said:

You like to live dangerously my friend, LOL

In all honesty I have nothing against automatics.In particular the eight speed ZF found in BMWs, Challengers, Chargers, and others is just excellent. That said, I think that there are some cars that are absolutely ruined by an automatic- and others that just are not a good fit with a manual.

cdnpinhead · May 2015

graphicguy said:
I know Lincoln is trying hard to transition their customer base.

I don't think Lincoln is trying hard to do anything beyond collecting money for Ford clones with moderately upgraded sheet metal, engines and trinkets.

Some of us think top-tier (say, luxury) brands need to be driven by the rear wheels to even get to play.

Full disclosure: I was stung before by a Lincoln product that promised to compete with real cars. That was over 15 years ago. Yada, yada, yada. That was my first (and last) car actually built in the U.S. British and Japanese vehicles have worked very well for me over the years. Never got to do German, since they decided that people like me were no longer (wait for it) in their wheelhouse.

Go figure.

He who cares least wins the negotiation, and these days I don't care about a lot of things. But, some I do.

fezo · May 2015

No report yet on the current Mazda. Looking at certifieds I see you you want the Mazda 6 Grand Touring you can't have a stick. I also noted that of I don't mind cargo space marginally better than the Prius you can get a new Honda Fit EX with a stick with an MSRP just below $19K. I'm in less of a fit about what happens if the 6 is too much to fix. If so I'll only regret putting decent money into it 6 months ago. I still really like the thing so if it's at all reasonable I'll keep it. At least until that new Mazdaspeed 3 comes out.

abacomike · May 2015

I cannot understand what cdnpinhead said in his post that would warrant someone giving him a flag for abuse! Am I missing something or am I only a few hours away from being admitted for a 72 hour mandatory observation admittance to the local psychiatric facility?

I re-read his post several times and did not find it abusive in any way. Either games are being played by someone or several people or I am really out of it! Same thing happened to me several days ago.

graphicguy · May 2015

abacomike said:
@ab348 said:

"Lincolns are are thinly-disguised versions of existing Ford platforms. The MKZ is a Fusion, the MKS is a Taurus, and the two SUVs are Escape and Flex-based. That has been a problem for them as many customers see that and wonder why they are paying so much more."

I test-drove the MKZ and really did not like it. I also test-drove the Taurus and did not like the fact that the center console "swooped" up into the front dashboard making me feel clostrophic. If the Lincoln MKS has the same interior design as the Taurus, I will scratch it off my list of possible replacement vehicles for next year.

Unfortunately, the CTS is too small for my comfort up front. As for the XTS, if they are eventually dropping it from the line, that would mean little, if any, upgrading in engine, handling, and perhaps technology.

Mike, unfortunately, that's the case with both Lincoln and the XTS (which is built on the same platform as the Impala). The Cadillac CT6 (the car shown in the new Cadillac ads) is supposed to be out in 2016. It's supposed to be Cadillac's top range model. And, it's supposed to have the best Cadillac tech and drivetrains.

Probably hear more about it in about 6 months as far as production goes.

MKZ is about the size of my CTS. So, that probably won't work for you, either.

Neighbor just bought a Lexus ES350. He took me for a ride. Considering how THAT car is supposed to offer the "creamy" Lexus ride, it crashed over bumps and road imperfections, It was fine on smooth surfaces, though.

Think I'll stick with my CTS.

roadburner · May 2015

cdnpinhead said:
I don't think Lincoln is trying hard to do anything beyond collecting money for Ford clones with moderately upgraded sheet metal, engines and trinkets.

Some of us think top-tier (say, luxury) brands need to be driven by the rear wheels to even get to play.

Full disclosure: I was stung before by a Lincoln product that promised to compete with real cars. That was over 15 years ago. Yada, yada, yada. That was my first (and last) car actually built in the U.S. British and Japanese vehicles have worked very well for me over the years. Never got to do German, since they decided that people like me were no longer (wait for it) in their wheelhouse.

Go figure.

He who cares least wins the negotiation, and these days I don't care about a lot of things. But, some I do.

The only flag I'd give the above post is: "Agree 100%!" Lincoln has never been able to successfully spar in the luxury/performance arena- even when they had a competitive product such as the Mark VII LSC or the LS. The brand doesn't stand a chance of cracking the segment with its current lineup of rebodied FWD and (FWD biased)AWD Fords.

ab348 · May 2015

cdnpinhead said:

graphicguy said:
I know Lincoln is trying hard to transition their customer base.
I don't think Lincoln is trying hard to do anything beyond collecting money for Ford clones with moderately upgraded sheet metal, engines and trinkets.

Some of us think top-tier (say, luxury) brands need to be driven by the rear wheels to even get to play.

Full disclosure: I was stung before by a Lincoln product that promised to compete with real cars. That was over 15 years ago. Yada, yada, yada. That was my first (and last) car actually built in the U.S. British and Japanese vehicles have worked very well for me over the years. Never got to do German, since they decided that people like me were no longer (wait for it) in their wheelhouse.

Go figure.

He who cares least wins the negotiation, and these days I don't care about a lot of things. But, some I do.

This was flagged TWICE?

I do not understand.

There is nothing here worthy of being flagged.

Mods: since only you can see who flagged this, I have a couple of suggestions. First, contact those 2 individuals and ask them why, Secondly, engage your developers to find a better way to report posts that are actually offensive or spammy rather than this, because it clearly is being misused.

dino001 · May 2015

This reminds me a little bit an experience I had with another website, when I once got an email message of my comment being removed. I looked what it was, it had zero personal attack, offensive language. Of course the email was a machine-automated with clear message of don't bother contacting us why, we just did it because we can. I think the flagging feature should be non-public, i.e. one reports it and it goes to the moderators, who make a decision. The rest of us doesn't really need to know, especially that there is no recourse, it's anonymous. I understand why Mike got frustrated - he felt like being fingered out by an anonymous clown for everybody to see. I probably wouldn't have such a strong reaction (I just don't care), but I can understand why he feels the injustice. Seems like the process needs some change.

abacomike · May 2015

ab348 said:

cdnpinhead said:

graphicguy said:
I know Lincoln is trying hard to transition their customer base.
I don't think Lincoln is trying hard to do anything beyond collecting money for Ford clones with moderately upgraded sheet metal, engines and trinkets.

Some of us think top-tier (say, luxury) brands need to be driven by the rear wheels to even get to play.

Full disclosure: I was stung before by a Lincoln product that promised to compete with real cars. That was over 15 years ago. Yada, yada, yada. That was my first (and last) car actually built in the U.S. British and Japanese vehicles have worked very well for me over the years. Never got to do German, since they decided that people like me were no longer (wait for it) in their wheelhouse.

Go figure.

He who cares least wins the negotiation, and these days I don't care about a lot of things. But, some I do.

This was flagged TWICE?

I do not understand.

There is nothing here worthy of being flagged.

Mods: since only you can see who flagged this, I have a couple of suggestions. First, contact those 2 individuals and ask them why, Secondly, engage your developers to find a better way to report posts that are actually offensive or spammy rather than this, because it clearly is being misused.

At least I can stop worrying about the "men in the white suits" knocking on my door to take me away for a 72 hour stay at the loony bin! The last several posts seem to agree with my assessment. The Moderators/Hosts really need to discuss this with the higher ups and instruct VANILLA (the support technology contractor) to come up with a better means of flagging truly "abusive" posts!

Two flags for that post is outrageous and inappropriate, to say the least. If you disagree with the post(er) respond with your own post regarding the content or whatever. Being a bit "flippant" is not a reason to flag a post(er) - there are several posters here who possess that trait, including me at times. It is obvious that there is someone or several people who have some axe to grind - and this is not the place to express that displeasure with an abuse flag!

dino001 · May 2015

abacomike said:

there are several posers here (...) including me at times.

I like the self-critique.

Just kidding. I know what you meant, just poking you.

dino001 · May 2015

Or is it poseurs?

abacomike · May 2015

graphicguy said:

abacomike said:
@ab348 said:

"Lincolns are are thinly-disguised versions of existing Ford platforms. The MKZ is a Fusion, the MKS is a Taurus, and the two SUVs are Escape and Flex-based. That has been a problem for them as many customers see that and wonder why they are paying so much more."

I test-drove the MKZ and really did not like it. I also test-drove the Taurus and did not like the fact that the center console "swooped" up into the front dashboard making me feel clostrophic. If the Lincoln MKS has the same interior design as the Taurus, I will scratch it off my list of possible replacement vehicles for next year.

Unfortunately, the CTS is too small for my comfort up front. As for the XTS, if they are eventually dropping it from the line, that would mean little, if any, upgrading in engine, handling, and perhaps technology.

Mike, unfortunately, that's the case with both Lincoln and the XTS (which is built on the same platform as the Impala). The Cadillac CT6 (the car shown in the new Cadillac ads) is supposed to be out in 2016. It's supposed to be Cadillac's top range model. And, it's supposed to have the best Cadillac tech and drivetrains.

Probably hear more about it in about 6 months as far as production goes.

MKZ is about the size of my CTS. So, that probably won't work for you, either.

Neighbor just bought a Lexus ES350. He took me for a ride. Considering how THAT car is supposed to offer the "creamy" Lexus ride, it crashed over bumps and road imperfections, It was fine on smooth surfaces, though.

Think I'll stick with my CTS.

And now, back to cars!!!

I registered with the Cadillac Division for upcoming news and information on the 2016 CT6 after reviewing the photos and descriptions. The car is downright gorgeous based upon what I have been able to observe. But I wasn't thinking with all my cylinders - I was barraged with emails from my local Cadillac Dealership telling me they will be calling me or emailing me and/or inviting me to come into their showroom to discuss the new model. I emailed them back requesting/insisting that they "leave me alone" until there is a reason to interact with their dealership. One email was from the owner, another from the sales manager and yet another from a salesman. Then, on top of all that, I get three more emails from the Cadillac Division. I'm just plain STUPID for thinking I could innocently register for upcoming info on the new CT6 online and not realizing the ramifications of that registration! Live and Learn!

What I did do is sit down with my friend who works for their dealership and ask him some questions, which is what I should have waited to do initially. He said the MSRP would be around $85,000 +/-! Good grief, I can get a new S Class for that kind of money. So, I really didn't have to ask him much - no way am I going to pay $85,000 for a car - solid gold or gold plated even!

So, the CT6 is no longer on my list. I guess the grass may be "greener" over at Cadillac, but the cost and maintenance of that grass is too rich for my blood for that model. Too bad, I was getting all excited about the prospect of buying an American Car again after all these years. The looks of that car is the "teaser" but the cost of that car is "reality"!

abacomike · May 2015

dino001 said:

abacomike said:

there are several posers here (...) including me at times.
I like the self-critique. Just kidding. I know what you meant, just poking you.

Poke away, Dino. JUST DON'T FLAG ME WITH AN ABUSE!!!

dino001 · May 2015

abacomike said:

graphicguy said:

abacomike said:
@ab348 said:

"Lincolns are are thinly-disguised versions of existing Ford platforms. The MKZ is a Fusion, the MKS is a Taurus, and the two SUVs are Escape and Flex-based. That has been a problem for them as many customers see that and wonder why they are paying so much more."

I test-drove the MKZ and really did not like it. I also test-drove the Taurus and did not like the fact that the center console "swooped" up into the front dashboard making me feel clostrophic. If the Lincoln MKS has the same interior design as the Taurus, I will scratch it off my list of possible replacement vehicles for next year.

Unfortunately, the CTS is too small for my comfort up front. As for the XTS, if they are eventually dropping it from the line, that would mean little, if any, upgrading in engine, handling, and perhaps technology.

Mike, unfortunately, that's the case with both Lincoln and the XTS (which is built on the same platform as the Impala). The Cadillac CT6 (the car shown in the new Cadillac ads) is supposed to be out in 2016. It's supposed to be Cadillac's top range model. And, it's supposed to have the best Cadillac tech and drivetrains.

Probably hear more about it in about 6 months as far as production goes.

MKZ is about the size of my CTS. So, that probably won't work for you, either.

Neighbor just bought a Lexus ES350. He took me for a ride. Considering how THAT car is supposed to offer the "creamy" Lexus ride, it crashed over bumps and road imperfections, It was fine on smooth surfaces, though.

Think I'll stick with my CTS.
And now, back to cars!!!

I registered with the Cadillac Division for upcoming news and information on the 2016 CT6 after reviewing the photos and descriptions. The car is downright gorgeous based upon what I have been able to observe. But I wasn't thinking with all my cylinders - I was barraged with emails from my local Cadillac Dealership telling me they will be calling me or emailing me and/or inviting me to come into their showroom to discuss the new model. I emailed them back requesting/insisting that they "leave me alone" until there is a reason to interact with their dealership. One email was from the owner, another from the sales manager and yet another from a salesman. Then, on top of all that, I get three more emails from the Cadillac Division. I'm just plain STUPID for thinking I could innocently register for upcoming info on the new CT6 online and not realizing the ramifications of that registration! Live and Learn!

What I did do is sit down with my friend who works for their dealership and ask him some questions, which is what I should have waited to do initially. He said the MSRP would be around $85,000 +/-! Good grief, I can get a new S Class for that kind of money. So, I really didn't have to ask him much - no way am I going to pay $85,000 for a car - solid gold or gold plated even!

So, the CT6 is no longer on my list. I guess the grass may be "greener" over at Cadillac, but the cost and maintenance of that grass is too rich for my blood for that model. Too bad, I was getting all excited about the prospect of buying an American Car again after all these years. The looks of that car is the "teaser" but the cost of that car is "reality"!

Some people just don't understand that "no means no"

. BTW, with that kind of pricing, if you wait long enough you may get one 10 grand off. Cadillac always does that - put the sticker prices like their "belong" and then quietly sells them to Enterprise, or gives you 10 grand off, or more. Well, not always, but often enough to be a pattern.

stever · May 2015

Everyone is waving their flag - this one is for Mike for the very topical Cadillac story.

robr2 · May 2015

...and the move to mainstream is

abacomike said:

graphicguy said:

abacomike said:
@ab348 said:

"Lincolns are are thinly-disguised versions of existing Ford platforms. The MKZ is a Fusion, the MKS is a Taurus, and the two SUVs are Escape and Flex-based. That has been a problem for them as many customers see that and wonder why they are paying so much more."

I test-drove the MKZ and really did not like it. I also test-drove the Taurus and did not like the fact that the center console "swooped" up into the front dashboard making me feel clostrophic. If the Lincoln MKS has the same interior design as the Taurus, I will scratch it off my list of possible replacement vehicles for next year.

Unfortunately, the CTS is too small for my comfort up front. As for the XTS, if they are eventually dropping it from the line, that would mean little, if any, upgrading in engine, handling, and perhaps technology.

Mike, unfortunately, that's the case with both Lincoln and the XTS (which is built on the same platform as the Impala). The Cadillac CT6 (the car shown in the new Cadillac ads) is supposed to be out in 2016. It's supposed to be Cadillac's top range model. And, it's supposed to have the best Cadillac tech and drivetrains.

Probably hear more about it in about 6 months as far as production goes.

MKZ is about the size of my CTS. So, that probably won't work for you, either.

Neighbor just bought a Lexus ES350. He took me for a ride. Considering how THAT car is supposed to offer the "creamy" Lexus ride, it crashed over bumps and road imperfections, It was fine on smooth surfaces, though.

Think I'll stick with my CTS.
And now, back to cars!!!

I registered with the Cadillac Division for upcoming news and information on the 2016 CT6 after reviewing the photos and descriptions. The car is downright gorgeous based upon what I have been able to observe. But I wasn't thinking with all my cylinders - I was barraged with emails from my local Cadillac Dealership telling me they will be calling me or emailing me and/or inviting me to come into their showroom to discuss the new model. I emailed them back requesting/insisting that they "leave me alone" until there is a reason to interact with their dealership. One email was from the owner, another from the sales manager and yet another from a salesman. Then, on top of all that, I get three more emails from the Cadillac Division. I'm just plain STUPID for thinking I could innocently register for upcoming info on the new CT6 online and not realizing the ramifications of that registration! Live and Learn!

What I did do is sit down with my friend who works for their dealership and ask him some questions, which is what I should have waited to do initially. He said the MSRP would be around $85,000 +/-! Good grief, I can get a new S Class for that kind of money. So, I really didn't have to ask him much - no way am I going to pay $85,000 for a car - solid gold or gold plated even!

So, the CT6 is no longer on my list. I guess the grass may be "greener" over at Cadillac, but the cost and maintenance of that grass is too rich for my blood for that model. Too bad, I was getting all excited about the prospect of buying an American Car again after all these years. The looks of that car is the "teaser" but the cost of that car is "reality"!

Everything I've read estimates pricing beginning at $70K and topping out at $100K. It is targeting at the A8, 7 series, and S Class so $70K seems in line.

abacomike · May 2015

Dino, even at $75,000, it's a "NO SALE". The most I've ever paid for a car was when I bought the CLS 550 2 years ago and I won't ever buy another one due to visibility issues, lack of fuel economy and the fact that I had to lower my seat so much in order not to hit my head on the headliner.

With the current E 400, I would not pay any more for a car than the 60K it cost me. If I do get another Mercedes, it will be the lower priced version with the standard engine so long as it has 300+ horsepower.

abacomike · May 2015

Rob, beginning at $70,000 means when you equip it the way you want, it's still more than I am willing or able to spend on a car. But it is one heck of a great looking vehicle, that's for sure!

robr2 · May 2015

I know "fit" is a very personal thing. The only dimension I can see where the E is bigger than the CTS is the shoulder room. Head and leg room are far better in the CTS. I'm guessing that's the area where you feel crowded.

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