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I sort of liked the ILX. It was nice and all but actually the car I really used to like was the original TSX, before they bloated it up. I had those as loaners a few times and liked the interior, size, and agility. The ILX is nice but the styling inside and out isn't motivating me. I'm sure they are good reliable cars which would be the plus, but I'm thinking not very sporty. Honda/Acura seems to have lost that sportiness that they had in the 80s and 90s.
Ok- you went from a RWD inline six to FWD 4CYCL-and you are pleased- explain. I am not trying to be harsh here . . .
Roadburner, who has been on these boards for, lo, these many years, did a similar thing. He seems to enjoy his Mazda quite a lot, even though he's owned (and still does) several BMWs. Perhaps he will chime in.
Some continue to climb the ladder; others step off at the floor that pleases them, or even step down. Perhaps the vehicle has a steering wheel actually connected (mechanically) the the front axle. Perhaps it has a dipstick. Perhaps you don't have to have it towed to the dealer when the battery goes dead. Perhaps it has real tires and a spare.
Go figure.
I've been up the ladder to the '98 A4, bought new, sport package, 6 cyl 5 speed. I STILL miss that car - but out of warranty at like 60K I started having cooling issues and the dealer of course could not figure it out, to the tune of a few trips of $800-$1200 each. Intermittent on warm days, only when the car was under load like climbing hills, etc. So I got rid of it at 88K, which is the earliest I've ever gotten rid of a car.
I've also been up the ladder on the TL - 150K, very reliable, pretty luxurious, but kind of too big and a bit of a wallowy barge.
"The ladder" of course is many things to many people - it could be cost, acceleration, badge, handling, economy, reliability, any combination of those. Thank goodness we have so many choices. I wouldn't disparage anybody's choices or priorities and so I can completely understand why those who owned BMWs would want something less expensive, or frankly, more involving. In the old days BMW was the high end "involving" make and Honda was probably the low end "involving" make. Nowadays I'm not so sure it's BMW at the high end and it is certainly not Honda at the lower end any more. Which is why Mazda is appealing if you are trying to be economical but still get some involvement.
I've been up the ladder to the '98 A4, bought new, sport package, 6 cyl 5 speed. I STILL miss that car - but out of warranty at like 60K I started having cooling issues and the dealer of course could not figure it out, to the tune of a few trips of $800-$1200 each. Intermittent on warm days, only when the car was under load like climbing hills, etc. So I got rid of it at 88K, which is the earliest I've ever gotten rid of a car.
I've also been up the ladder on the TL - 150K, very reliable, pretty luxurious, but kind of too big and a bit of a wallowy barge.
"The ladder" of course is many things to many people - it could be cost, acceleration, badge, handling, economy, reliability, any combination of those. Thank goodness we have so many choices. I wouldn't disparage anybody's choices or priorities and so I can completely understand why those who owned BMWs would want something less expensive, or frankly, more involving. In the old days BMW was the high end "involving" make and Honda was probably the low end "involving" make. Nowadays I'm not so sure it's BMW at the high end and it is certainly not Honda at the lower end any more. Which is why Mazda is appealing if you are trying to be economical but still get some involvement.
I was initially looking at a GTI back in 2007, but the local VW dealers all proved to be hopelessly inept. I checked out everything from a Mustang Bullitt to an X5 4.8is to an E39 M5. I finally decided to go with a FWD car since we were seeing so many Civic Sis, GTIs, Minis, etc.at our HPDEs- I figured I should have some actual seat time in that drivetrain configuration if I was going to instruct those drivers. The Mazdaspeed 3had received extremely good reviews from Automobile, AW, CD and R&T and was reasonably quick so I figured, why not? Funny thing: at my first BMW CCA HPDE with the Mazdaspeed(dead stock, OEM tires) it was raining a bit during the first instructor session. I lapped every car on the track. Twice.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
tlong....one thing you might want to do is drive the TLX. If refinement is at the top of your list, you might be pleasantly surprised by a test drive....especially the V6 SH AWD version.
The V6 SH AWD "version" is, if you axe me, not a version at all, it is an entirely different car. Whatever additional tuning is performed on the SH AWD "version" gives it transformed handling (reminds me of an S4) -- and it is not (or perhaps I should say it can't possibly be just because of) the torque vectoring rear differential.
Perhaps, in response to someone's question regarding why the Q50 isn't setting any sales records, I suggest driving back-to-back-to back the following: Acura TLX SH-AWD Advance, Infiniti Q50S AWD and the Lexus IS 350 F-sport AWD. Of the three, the Infiniti Q50S is the least impressive.
I used to say the BMW 3 was the German version of Infiniti's G37X -- somehow,they (Infiniti) lost their mojo with the new Q50S -- having said that, however, I have confidence they will find it again.
I liked the Lexus so much I ordered one, fully loaded, thinking even a Premium Plus S4 wasn't "within reach" -- but the magic discount offered due to my membership in the Audi Club of NA, plus some very impressive money factors, made the S4, as they say, within reach of us mere mortals.
Mark...I concur with you. SH AWD, even in the TLX, is a "horse of a different color". While not the performance beast the S4 is, it's not far off the mark in many repsects.
I vascilate on the IS 350 F Sport. On the one hand, it's a fun drive. Not a "bahn burner" by any stretch, but peppy, with divine steering. Love the seats, too.
On the other hand, it's cramped. Certain features are just confounding. Overall, for high $40s all oaded up (and low-mid $40s discounted), you could do a lot worse. That puts it in the price ballpark of the TLX SH AWD ADVANCE. That's a tougher decision when you factor that into everything.
That C CLass and the interrior, and the "smoothness" of how it drives and operates, while giving up little in the way of ultimate performance can be had in the mid $40s range, too (loaded up and discounted).
Now, all of a sudden, I ask myself "is a 335i worth $10K more?" No immediate answer comes to mind because I'd have to ponder that one long and hard.
No disrrespect meant for those who like the Q50. But, my opinion only, it gets left by the side of the road amongst these others mentioned above. Even the Q50S feels crude by comparison.
One of the things about the Q50 that I noticed -- having come from an FX with the same motor -- is a certain, er, "coarseness" (the pros call it thrashing) that the other Japanese and Germans lack. Now, having said that, the 3.7L motor in the Q50 seems to have been given a extra shot of sound deadening, but at full-cry the engine, which is still good, just shows its more unrefined side.
The Lexus, especially compared with the Acura, was a bit cramped inside; but after having had a TL, everything seems a bit tighter, and I would quickly forget the relative girth of the Acura. Yet, the Lexus had a nicer interior than the BMW 3 -- of that I am certain.
I am finding out that I am not a fan of the north and south display screens (e.g., in the Q50 and Acura), it makes the interior look a bit chopped up.
To each his/her own on that count, though. I hate the pop up nav screen that is all the rage these days -- looks so much like something from the aftermarket (Pioneer in-dash head units come to mind).
Now, all of a sudden, I ask myself "is a 335i worth $10K more?" No immediate answer comes to mind because I'd have to ponder that one long and hard.
For MY16 a similar options 340i is less then a MY15 335i. On the 340i LED headlights are now standard, BMW has shifted many items around, option packages have changed,
FN...looked for the 340 on TrueCar last night. They don't have it listed yet. I would imagine the lack of discounts on them is still going to put it above where I would want to budget a car/if I get a new car. I mentioned before, I like these new turbo 4 motors. They are torquey and it's amazing to me how they've almost removed any turbo lag. But, some are a little coarse. BMW falls into that category (as does the one in the CTS).
Looking at the 335i xDrive equipped the way I want puts me well into the low-mid $50s. The "5" in that number is a place I don't want to be.
Mercedes 2.0L turbo is smooth, as is the one in the Audi A4.
Still not as silky as say the 6 in the S4, IS 350 or TLX SH AWD, though. Ideally, Acura would slap a urbo on their 3.5L V6. For some reason, except for the previous RDX, Acura has shied away from turbos.
Thursday night, passed by the local Acura dealer. They looked dead. Hooked up with my favorite sales person to get an extended test drive of a TLX SH AWD Advance. You can immediately tell they shaved weight from the previous TL for that car. Much more refined, too....especially the suspension. Handles well. Great leather sports seats, as always. Tight as a drum...even the door slam sounds expensive. Pushbutton trans would trake some getting used to. Stereo, as always was "killer". Not sure what to think of the dual screen layout. Again, seems like the answer to a question no one asked. Relatively quick....thinking mid-high 5 sec range in the 60 romp according to my buttometer...about the same as my previous TL.
Sticker said 46K. Haven't looked at pricing since I'm not in the market. I dunno...thinking it would land somewhere in the low $40s. Very nice car for that kind of money. Performs well. Has all the "stuff" you could possibly want. Built well, as always. Looks good (finally). But, I've always liked the looks of previous gens.
And another car is coming to play in the 3 series field... Welcome the 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia it is stunning in the photos... now if the V6 sounds anything like what my GT-V6 did, I'd buy one in a heart beat... Talk about Soul.
FN...looked for the 340 on TrueCar last night. They don't have it listed yet. I would imagine the lack of discounts on them is still going to put it above where I would want to budget a car/if I get a new car. I mentioned before, I like these new turbo 4 motors. They are torquey and it's amazing to me how they've almost removed any turbo lag. But, some are a little coarse. BMW falls into that category (as does the one in the CTS).
The BMW build for the 340 should go live very soon, since the factory that makes the 3 series closes down for 2 weeks starting tomorrow, so people can't order a new 335 any longer, so check back middle of next week, also I can put you in contact with some sales people who will sell the car at invoice +$500, order your car, then pick it up at the PDC (Performance Delivery Center in South Carolina, and have a day learning how to drive fast, then take delivery of your new BMW and drive it home.
FN...looked for the 340 on TrueCar last night. They don't have it listed yet. I would imagine the lack of discounts on them is still going to put it above where I would want to budget a car/if I get a new car. I mentioned before, I like these new turbo 4 motors. They are torquey and it's amazing to me how they've almost removed any turbo lag. But, some are a little coarse. BMW falls into that category (as does the one in the CTS).
The BMW build for the 340 should go live very soon, since the factory that makes the 3 series closes down for 2 weeks starting tomorrow, so people can't order a new 335 any longer, so check back middle of next week, also I can put you in contact with some sales people who will sell the car at invoice +$500, order your car, then pick it up at the PDC (Performance Delivery Center in South Carolina, and have a day learning how to drive fast, then take delivery of your new BMW and drive it home.
Cool...thanks! Appreciate the offer, but I've already got my BMW "guy" locally.
Car and Driver just posted the 328d xDrive Diesel Sports Wagon Long Term Wrap-Up on their web site. They found the four cylinder diesel to be a bit too crude for prime time in the car's market segment. Maybe it's done intentionally to force buyers into the 335d(much like the way Ford sticks a horribly cheap interior in the base Mustang to ensure everyone with two functioning eyeballs springs for the Premium trim level). It's also good to know that BMW's engineers have been hard at work redesigning the xDrive transfer case so that it now fails at 25,000 miles- 111,000 miles sooner than the the t/c in my son's X3.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Car and Driver just posted the 328d xDrive Diesel Sports Wagon Long Term Wrap-Up on their web site. They found the four cylinder diesel to be a bit too crude for prime time in the car's market segment. Maybe it's done intentionally to force buyers into the 335d(much like the way Ford sticks a horribly cheap interior in the base Mustang to ensure everyone with two functioning eyeballs springs for the Premium trim level). It's also good to know that BMW's engineers have been hard at work redesigning the xDrive transfer case so that it now fails at 25,000 miles- 111,000 miles sooner than the the t/c in my son's X3.
So to say that you are a little bias towards BMW, but to set the record straight, BMW does not import the 335d any longer, the 328d was it's replacement. If you want a wagon, it's either 328i or 328d.
VQ egine from Nissan has won many awards but the biggest issue is, horrible MPG, Harshness in the upper range and not very refine towards redline. Now according to you the VQ is a better engine then the inline 6 from BMW, but motor journalist from around the world would say you are wrong..
Maybe. Gas mileage so far 21 mixed driving. Sounds real nice on the down shifts. NVH is better than than previous iteration, IMHO.
I can report the Q50 V-6 is one of the best engines I've experienced, even nicer than the I-6 in the 330XI that I leased back in'06. Granted, the supension, road feel and the intuitive qualities of the beemer still linger but the Q ia a very nice ride!
Why are sales so dismal?
We have a Q50 Hybrid with 34k on the clock. It's a great car, but the best description I've heard is "Infiniti couldn't decide if they wanted to build a luxury car or a sports car, and they ended up with neither"
It's a great car, but the best description I've heard is "Infiniti couldn't decide if they wanted to build a luxury car or a sports car, and they ended up with neither" It's a great car, but the best description I've heard is "Infiniti couldn't decide if they wanted to build a luxury car or a sports car, and they ended up with neither"
I'd agree completely. Not a track day car but neither was the '06 330XI bimmer!
In recent news, Infinity will upgrade the V-6 part of it's equation to meet current high performance standards for the Q50.
Car and Driver just posted the 328d xDrive Diesel Sports Wagon Long Term Wrap-Up on their web site. They found the four cylinder diesel to be a bit too crude for prime time in the car's market segment. Maybe it's done intentionally to force buyers into the 335d(much like the way Ford sticks a horribly cheap interior in the base Mustang to ensure everyone with two functioning eyeballs springs for the Premium trim level). It's also good to know that BMW's engineers have been hard at work redesigning the xDrive transfer case so that it now fails at 25,000 miles- 111,000 miles sooner than the the t/c in my son's X3.
There is no 335d for F30 model in the US market. It was only E90 and IMHO that model was completely pointless (want a fast car, get 335).
I think C&D staff has unreasonable expectations, similar to those who buy a small coupe and then complain about rear seat being cramped, or getting a truck and then acting all surprised it doesn't handle like a sports car. It's a four-cylinder diesel that gets you 40 mpg. Nothing is free in this world. I drove 328 diesel, it was fine, exactly what you may want if you are a diesel buyer (I am not, but I think I can understand what people want when shop for one - it's not what 335d used to be).
The badge of course was a bit slight of hand - it's a Euro's 320d model rebadged for here as 328d. The reason is clear, as US buyers wouldn't pay upper market price (couple thousand premium over 328i) for a car with downmarket model designation (320). Badges matter here. It's also simple pricing difference overall (there same models being twice the price here, the differences between model designations do not translate into as significant pricing separation, in relative terms).
I'd like to see some statistics on that transfer case. If it's a real pattern, it's a big issue.
I should have known the 335d was gone, but after 32 years of BMW ownership and CCA participation my interest in the marque has decreased significantly; a couple of weeks ago I found last month's Roundel under a stack of car/motorcycle magazines- I hadn't even removed it from the poly bag.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Car and Driver just posted the 328d xDrive Diesel Sports Wagon Long Term Wrap-Up on their web site. They found the four cylinder diesel to be a bit too crude for prime time in the car's market segment. Maybe it's done intentionally to force buyers into the 335d(much like the way Ford sticks a horribly cheap interior in the base Mustang to ensure everyone with two functioning eyeballs springs for the Premium trim level). It's also good to know that BMW's engineers have been hard at work redesigning the xDrive transfer case so that it now fails at 25,000 miles- 111,000 miles sooner than the the t/c in my son's X3.
There is no 335d for F30 model in the US market. It was only E90 and IMHO that model was completely pointless (want a fast car, get 335).
I think C&D staff has unreasonable expectations, similar to those who buy a small coupe and then complain about rear seat being cramped, or getting a truck and then acting all surprised it doesn't handle like a sports car. It's a four-cylinder diesel that gets you 40 mpg. Nothing is free in this world. I drove 328 diesel, it was fine, exactly what you may want if you are a diesel buyer (I am not, but I think I can understand what people want when shop for one - it's not what 335d used to be).
The badge of course was a bit slight of hand - it's a Euro's 320d model rebadged for here as 328d. The reason is clear, as US buyers wouldn't pay upper market price (couple thousand premium over 328i) for a car with downmarket model designation (320). Badges matter here. It's also simple pricing difference overall (there same models being twice the price here, the differences between model designations do not translate into as significant pricing separation, in relative terms).
I'd like to see some statistics on that transfer case. If it's a real pattern, it's a big issue.
Is that the case? I went to the UK site to see and they offer in the diesel 316, 318, 320, 325, 330, 335. No where could I find the actual engine size. Does BMW actually make 6 different diesels in those sizes?
I used the live chat at bmw.uk.co and their reply was the 316, 318, 320 all use the 2.0 engine and the 330, 335 use the 3.0. They are doing the same "label = how it should perform" as in the US.
Is that the case? I went to the UK site to see and they offer in the diesel 316, 318, 320, 325, 330, 335. No where could I find the actual engine size. Does BMW actually make 6 different diesels in those sizes?
I used the live chat at bmw.uk.co and their reply was the 316, 318, 320 all use the 2.0 engine and the 330, 335 use the 3.0. They are doing the same "label = how it should perform" as in the US.
To confirm it, you need to look up the UK specs of their 320d and see that the torque and hp numbers are exact match for 328d US version (I did it for German version).
Yes, the labeling has totally departed the engine size about 10 years ago, or so - even before then it was only loosely related (like 323/325 and 328/330 had same engine size, 3.0 liter). However, 328d is simply 320d from UK/Europe for marketing/pricing reasons. If you look at performance figures of 328d (US), they are significantly lower than 328i, more in line with 320i, which would fit as again, it really is 320d, rebadged.
There is no 335d for F30 model in the US market. It was only E90 and IMHO that model was completely pointless (want a fast car, get 335).
I think C&D staff has unreasonable expectations, similar to those who buy a small coupe and then complain about rear seat being cramped, or getting a truck and then acting all surprised it doesn't handle like a sports car. It's a four-cylinder diesel that gets you 40 mpg. Nothing is free in this world. I drove 328 diesel, it was fine, exactly what you may want if you are a diesel buyer (I am not, but I think I can understand what people want when shop for one - it's not what 335d used to be).
The badge of course was a bit slight of hand - it's a Euro's 320d model rebadged for here as 328d. The reason is clear, as US buyers wouldn't pay upper market price (couple thousand premium over 328i) for a car with downmarket model designation (320). Badges matter here. It's also simple pricing difference overall (there same models being twice the price here, the differences between model designations do not translate into as significant pricing separation, in relative terms).
I'd like to see some statistics on that transfer case. If it's a real pattern, it's a big issue.
The 335d was a test car for BMW, it was infact their first diesel car in the use in over 30 yrs, E38 524td, was a good car for the time, but was pricey. So fast forward to the E90 335d, was a rocket, 255hp and 413lbs of torque, it's basically the same engine in the 535d and X5 3.5d. The 3.5 liter was too big of engine for the E90, and I think the 2 liter is too small for the F30, BMW has a 2.5 liter 4 cyl oil burner which would give about 20 more HP and about 50 lbs more torque. It would still deliver in the high 40s on the open road. That would take care of the power problem.
Is that the case? I went to the UK site to see and they offer in the diesel 316, 318, 320, 325, 330, 335. No where could I find the actual engine size. Does BMW actually make 6 different diesels in those sizes?
I used the live chat at bmw.uk.co and their reply was the 316, 318, 320 all use the 2.0 engine and the 330, 335 use the 3.0. They are doing the same "label = how it should perform" as in the US.
I'll back Dino, our 328d is the euro 320d, same engine.. If they all use the same 2 liter, then it is all about tune.. Just like the our 320 and 328i.
Is that the case? I went to the UK site to see and they offer in the diesel 316, 318, 320, 325, 330, 335. No where could I find the actual engine size. Does BMW actually make 6 different diesels in those sizes?
I used the live chat at bmw.uk.co and their reply was the 316, 318, 320 all use the 2.0 engine and the 330, 335 use the 3.0. They are doing the same "label = how it should perform" as in the US.
I'll back Dino, our 328d is the euro 320d, same engine.. If they all use the same 2 liter, then it is all about tune.. Just like the our 320 and 328i.
That's right. However, there is a real difference between 320i and 328i in output, regardless of the engine size. Moreover, 320i/328i sold here are the same cars sold Europe with only differences due to market certification. However, US-market 328d was a pure badge gimmick. Europeans have always known diesels are more expensive to make, hence they have to be substantially more expensive to buy. Americans don't fully understand reasons for such a price premium in diesel-powered cars, so something "badged" as lower end (320d) would not sell at price that's even higher than mid-level 328i. Hence, 328d, not 320d as everywhere else in the world.
BTW, the European love of diesels is clearly weakening. Not that it's gone, but they are not seen as attractive as they used to be. Price of fuel went up so much vs. gasoline (unlike in the US, Europe had had cheaper diesel for decades prior last few years - that was due heavier taxation of gasoline, but now it got offset by higher market pricing due to heavy machinery and generator demand plus more stringent refining requirements), so higher diesel price was offset by better mileage PLUS cheaper fuel. Today, the latter is gone, only mileage is better, so it takes much longer to offset purchase price premium. Diesels are still kings in larger vehicles, like SUVs and crossovers (which are coincidentally getting more popular there), but in smaller and midsize sedans/hatchbacks are getting less and less attractive in diesel versions and the proportions of new car sales are slowly changing.
Is that the case? I went to the UK site to see and they offer in the diesel 316, 318, 320, 325, 330, 335. No where could I find the actual engine size. Does BMW actually make 6 different diesels in those sizes?
I used the live chat at bmw.uk.co and their reply was the 316, 318, 320 all use the 2.0 engine and the 330, 335 use the 3.0. They are doing the same "label = how it should perform" as in the US.
I'll back Dino, our 328d is the euro 320d, same engine.. If they all use the same 2 liter, then it is all about tune.. Just like the our 320 and 328i.
True but BMW has been playing the current badge = what the old engine performance used to do. So the 335 has a 2.8 but it performs like the old 3.5. It's definitely about "prestige."
335 has 3.0, not 2.8, but the point is the same. Now it will become 340. Same size (3.0), more ponies so now (according to them) it is now like old 4.0 V8. To a degree, it's true, but c'mon. Now Benz is doing the same with their models. C300 has 2.0 I4, C400 has a 3.5 V6, etc.
335 has 3.0, not 2.8, but the point is the same. Now it will become 340. Same size (3.0), more ponies so now (according to them) it is now like old 4.0 V8. To a degree, it's true, but c'mon. Now Benz is doing the same with their models. C300 has 2.0 I4, C400 has a 3.5 V6, etc.
C'mon is correct - especially for us OCD guys. I feel the need to get a bunch of plastichrome numbers and "fix" all those cars. Then Zen will be achieved.
335 has 3.0, not 2.8, but the point is the same. Now it will become 340. Same size (3.0), more ponies so now (according to them) it is now like old 4.0 V8. To a degree, it's true, but c'mon. Now Benz is doing the same with their models. C300 has 2.0 I4, C400 has a 3.5 V6, etc.
C'mon is correct - especially for us OCD guys. I feel the need to get a bunch of plastichrome numbers and "fix" all those cars. Then Zen will be achieved.
The '14 S4 I ordered came with the no-cost optional all-season tires. The tire specification was, on my part, deliberate since, living in Cincinnati -- the home of typically "moderate" winters -- I know I can't get away with "summer only" shoes year 'round. My previous A4 with the sport option came with 19" wheels and summer only tires, which were great except for two things: 1 - they suck at any temperature below 40; and, 2 - the tread life of the Max Performance Summer Only tires that Audi chose was, optimistically not much north of 11,000 miles. This time, I thought I'd go with an S4 with the A/S's -- and I assumed since I was ordering an "S" car, the all-season tires would be the best of the best UHP A/S's on the market, probably Continentals or Michelins.
Bzzz! Thanks for playing, but the correct answer is that the tires on the car were "H" rated Grand Touring tires, albeit from Continental. The main characteristic of these GT tires was that they were very quiet. Otherwise they seemed out of place, somewhat, on an S4 -- the phrase "under-tired" springs to mind.
We had, prior to driving my wife's SQ5 off the lot had Continental DWS UHP tires put on the 20" wheels, and these tires were (considering they were UHP A/S's) a true pleasure, the best of both worlds, if that is even possible.
So, here we are about 2 years later (my how time flies), she with 40,000+ miles on the SQ and me with 30,000+ miles on the S4 deciding that we had gotten what we wanted out of the tires on our respective S cars.
Meantime, back in the lab, Continental had updated the DWS tires and renamed them, slightly, DWS 06. Now, I have about 75+ miles on my new DWS 06 tires and the SQ gets its new shoes day after tomorrow.
For a 100% back-to-back commentary, we'll have to wait until we can drive in on DWS's and drive out on DWS 06's -- but my impressions of these tires on the S4 are from the context of driving in on Grand Touring slightly stiff sidewall tires and driving out on UHP very stiff sidewall tires (and, now that I've passed 50 miles, the slickness is gone).
The DWS 06's if you need (or want) all-seasons have transformed the responsiveness of the S4 from very good to "I can't believe this is even the same car" great. Additionally, these tires are even quieter than the outgoing GT's and even the "jolts" felt when hitting potholes are now, somehow, felt as if through some kind of energy absorbing compound (flubber perhaps?)
Here's the [current] bottom line:
These tires were designed to end "your" (and my) need to apologize for having all-season tires; there is quite a bit of explanation and detail that goes into what Continental did (or at least how their marketing department explains what they did) -- the sum and substance you can look up, but it all falls under the name "Sport Plus" technology.
SPT aims to provide drivers with much more precise handling (than any other UHP A/S tire on the market) and confidence and security on wet and/or slick surfaces, 35% stiffer sidewalls, and an even quieter ride than the DWS all with a 50,000 mile tread life warranty.
I'd say, thus far, their aim is true. These tires make me REALLY REALLY want to carve up the secondary roads I'm used to in my neck of the woods.
A set of four, for my S4 was $719.56 and was $908.96 for the SQ5 (S4: 245 x 40 x 18"; SQ5: 255 x 45 x 20").
I had mine mounted and road-force balanced (plus a 4-wheel alignment) for $200, at the Audi dealer.
I plan to "drive it like I live" for at least another 40 - 45,000 miles.
Now I do oh-so-sincerely wish I had remembered to order the Sport Differential.
On the s4 for summers I have continentals extream contacts- 19's 255/35 big boys - I can say it's night and day over the 18' winters and with the SD pushing it into a Turn is pure joy.
On the s4 for summers I have continentals extream contacts- 19's 255/35 big boys - I can say it's night and day over the 18' winters and with the SD pushing it into a Turn is pure joy.
(whispering) Pure Joy. I can only imagine since I don't have the SD, but my wife and I took out an S5 w/SD recently -- it too had the 19" wheel/tire package -- and it gave new meaning to the phrase "corners like a snake in a rat hole."
Since it would be financially crazy to do so, I will NOT be trading the current S4 for an S4 w/SD, but still, these DWS 06 UHP's have totally changed how fast I can enter a curve. It does carve like it's on rails!
In case anyone needs or wants to know: Front inflation [cold], 42 lbs, Rear, 40 lbs. The reason to do this -- especially on Audis -- is that they are nose heavy and when readying for a sharp turn maneuver the load shifts to the front, so I give the fronts a bit more [air pressure] to work with, figuring they need it.
Interesting I may try that- I do 40/40 all round - I don't feel the heavy front could be the SD but I would prob have to drive a regular side by side to comp. When I was looking I test drove one w/o SD and found it handle really well- it was set up with summer 19' slicks as well and I loved it, just couldn't match up on price. Mark Thanks for the talk on tires - when I swapped mine I was told this is the last summer on current set. Winters on the other hand have another couple of seasons- let's hope we (up east) don't have a similar winter or it will be less. This car really is a all purpose beast - in the snow with proper shoes (marks term) it's a billy goat- in the summer with slicks and in beast mode it's a rocket that can handle turns- not bad for a stealth kid hauler.
I run summer tires on my Club Sport and Mazdaspeed; I have a set of UHP all seasons that I use as winter rubber for the MS3, but the Club Sport just remains in the heated garage when the ambient temperature drops much below 30F.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The Germans -- and for all I know all of them -- produce new cars, not "refreshes", about once every eight years. My 2014 S4 is so very similar to my 2009 A4 (that I bought in third quarter 2008), it was difficult for me to actually see much difference, even though mine is a "post refresh" version.
Here is what this means: an A4 (and you can fill in the blank for your favorite make) available in calendar 2008 (in the US) is essentially repeated with continuous improvements in 2009, 2010, 2011,2012,2013,2014 and 2015, with a truly new car unavailable until calendar 2016.
Now, don't get me wrong, my 2014 S4 does have many seen and certainly many more unseen improvements over my 2009 A4. But progress, like time and tide, continues to advance -- and apparently the "avionics" are seldom unable to be upgraded, which leaves the last two and sometimes three years of a "model run" possibly out-dated.
It's no wonder the A4's sales (see post above) have dropped nearly 15% (and there have been decent incentives on this model, and it still manages to have a sharp sales drop off). The phrase often seen in the enthusiast's magazines is "long in the tooth" -- and that term is typically used after about 6 years after an all-new model is released.
Now, I'm not simply or just talking about the styling changes that typically go along with an all-new model, no, I'm talking about the wheelbase, width, platform, engine/transmission choices and technology advances, the features and functions (available inside the car) and even the audio systems and safety features.
Yet Audi, BMW and Mercedes seem hell-bent on this 8-year cycle as if they haven't yet noticed the last couple of years of a model's cycle see a big time sales decline. There is some historical justification for delaying the new model roll-out, and there is, no doubt, an economic reason for doing this -- at least there used to be.
Now, new technology -- which makes its way to cars faster and faster and more quickly than ever before -- becomes available about every 18-24 months, which should translate to cutting the 8-year cycle to 6 years, and, frankly, perhaps to 5 years.
Conversely, the rapidity of available [technology] change could argue for the automotive manufacturers to take a page out of aviation's play-book -- that is to allow us at least some reasonable ability to upgrade our car's "electronic" systems. Increasingly, our cars interface with "us" via software controlled devices. Furthermore, even when the new software requires upgraded hardware components, we should be able to swap out the old for the new.
I recently upgraded my relatively old laptop by swapping out a spinning disk-drive for a solid state drive and simultaneously was able to move from Windows 7 to Windows 8 -- and you don't need to get me started on the ability to keep upgrading the OS on my Apple devices; and upgrade my home theater from VHS to DVD to BluRay without having to buy an entirely new home theater system.
Airplane owners have long enjoyed the ability to, as I said, upgrade the avionics of their planes to conform to FAA requirements or to add additional functionality to their planes.
I understand the need to produce newly styled vehicles -- but I believe the life cycles have to drop from 8 to 6 to 4 or 5 years, especially if auto manufacturers remain unwilling to allow us to make some in-between model upgrades. Folks who want the newest styling will always want the newest styling would be my assumption.
Imagine if the new iPhone didn't come out for five years after the last one, or if we had to wait for UHD-TV because HD hadn't been out for at least 8-years, and so on.
Audi, BMW, Mercedes and all the manufacturers who have these impossibly long lag times between the introduction of new models need to get with the realities associated with the Law, Moore's Law, that is.
Wow, Audi is really kicking butt with the A3. Interesting how I found my '06 A3 superior in many ways to the current model, though Americans prefer their sedans to "sportbacks" as Audi put it. The sales numbers show that.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
@andres3 - the old a3 you own is no where near the new one unless you opted for the sport pack and manual - vs rthe base current model. Beside the hatch, which I like better the old car is not in same class. In fact prev gen golf better cat dollar for dollar. Like the passion for the oldie but sit in a new a3 and you would be hard pressed to distinguish it from current a6 from the cabin. The americAns might be onto something .
@andres3 - the old a3 you own is no where near the new one unless you opted for the sport pack and manual - vs rthe base current model. Beside the hatch, which I like better the old car is not in same class. In fact prev gen golf better cat dollar for dollar. Like the passion for the oldie but sit in a new a3 and you would be hard pressed to distinguish it from current a6 from the cabin. The americAns might be onto something .
I have to disagree. The new A3 left me feeling it wasn't a "no corner cut" Audi. I liked the lightweight chassis and tossable feel of the handling though. The old A3 was light enough to be tossable as well and was excellent with the DSG transmission which had great tuning in '06 (maybe not the tuning a Toyota driver looking for a smooth auto would look for). Also, it was a sport package equipped A3 I had (sport leather seats, aluminum air vent rings, aluminum shift paddles, 10 mm lower ride height, stiffer springs, stiffer dampers; fog lights, spoiler on the roof, awesomely tuned for sporty driving).
It had little details with seemingly (at the time) no corners cut. Things like aluminum sills front and back, a power port in the cargo area, lighting for all areas of the interior, and the DSG learned "your style of driving." By the way I don't own the A3 because I sold it at about 8 years old with 106,000 miles on the odometer ($8K).
The new A3 is smoother, quieter, but not as raw and involving. The transmission is tuned to pretend to be a regular run of the mill automatic unless you put it in S. It would be interesting to look at them side by side at the same time for comparison.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I am happy that Audi brought the A3 to market -- my assumption is this model will bring more customers into the fold. Everytime I visit my dealership, I make certain I get in whatever A3's are on the showroom floor. I must say, I think a base A3 without any options, seems out of place next to the RS7, S8, A6 TDI, and Q5's (and sometimes even an RS8) on the showroom floor, however. The higher contented (with sexier wheels) A3's just like the high zoot Q3's have no problem being a member of the family, however.
I have twice driven an S3, and I found them to be quick, powerful, almost visceral -- raw and rough around the edges. For $50K, plus $11 for the ear plugs that would be required, however, I would never buy one. Furthermore, firm is one thing, but the S3 in dynamic mode is harsh, more unrefined than any Audi I've ever driven -- until you get the thing above 90MPH, then it starts to make sense.
But, $50,000+ for an S3 -- which may not be too much considering the content and performance -- seems to put it out of the "boy racer" league, unless the "boy" has Trump as his last name.
The current S4 is showing its age, to be sure, but even though there is a new S4 looming in a matter of months, the current S4, for somewhat similar money, still seems far more refined and its supercharged V6 is sublime compared to the S3's sturm und drang.
The S3, to an older fart like me, reminds me of the first time my then boss let me drive his new Porsche 944 turbo. When I found out how much it cost, I just couldn't fathom why anyone would subject themselves to that much punishment just to be able to have a car that was supremely capable at triple-digit speeds (in an era when the maximum speed limit was 70MPH -- which we have, once again, returned to here in Ohio, thankfully.)
So, perhaps the A3 really is the refined "little" model deserving of the Audi rings; but, to me, as capable -- at speed and a caution to the wind driving demeanor -- as the S3 is, it seems almost more like something that should have been marketed by VW or had its roughest edges filed down and more sound deadening stuffed into every crack and crevice.
My remarks, it should be emphasized, pertain mostly to the S3, and entirely to the S3 when it comes to driving impressions. An upscale Premium+ or Prestige model A3 certainly seems to fit right into the family dynamic, and hopefully the driving experience does nothing but strengthen that perception.
The S3 is a fun car and one that from time-to-time could be a hoot -- a great romp, the Jurassic World Audi, perhaps.
There is a VW S3, but it's called the Golf R and has 5 doors. The dealer that had one in my County didn't have it sitting more than a couple days before it disappeared into some happy buyer's garage. Most VW dealers have zero. Maybe the Golf 400 will be more readily available.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
How's Them New Taars?"Taars" mid-west col·lo·qui·al for "Tires"
Hopefully this is somewhat of a public service, since I have no financial interest whatsoever in Continental Tires or The Tire Rack or The Audi Connection, despite spending money with all three entities.
The new shoes -- Continental DWS 06's -- have been on my '14 S4 (18") and on my wife's '14 SQ5 (20") for over 300 miles (in my case over 400 miles); and, today, July 8th, is a day befitting a duck -- steady, steady rain. The puddles have puddles, in fact.
This is really the first day I have driven with the DWS 06's on seriously wet streets, roads and highways.
Up until today, my report would have been entirely based on dry-pavement experiences. And, to put a finer point on things, the report I would give would have been easily rendered: Excellent handling, turn-in and bump absorption while being both quiet and comfortable (the latter qualified with the phrase "for an ultra-high performance tire.")
I was in a big hurry this morning for a 9:30 meeting which required streets, secondary roads and two interstates to get to. Of course, it rains -- which, in Cincinnati, at least, brings out a driving behavior reminding me of the phrase "deer in the headlights." You see, Cincinnati drivers appear to never have seen rain, sleet or snow -- EVERY SINGLE TIME it rains, sleets or snows. This leads to -- hmm, seemingly endless (and unexplainable) backups when the coefficient of friction drops (like today) perhaps not much more than 10-15%. Such is life.
With some trepidation, therefore, I decided, initially, that "ACD" (assured clear distance) calculations had to be modified to make certain I could stop rather than ram into the "deer" ahead of me as he/she somehow managed to lose control of their car due to some standing water.
No worries.
The "W" in DWS (Dry Wet Snow) came through like a champ. The car continued to behave "about as normal" -- a rain soaked highway seemed little changed compared to a dry version of the same road, at least as far as I could tell behind the wheel. I half expected some earlier onset under-steer (and I'm sure it would be there at some speed) than on a dry road, but -- with my hand held high in the "I swear" position -- I didn't detect any even on that one curve I forgot about as I winded my way toward I-71S.
Another testimonial -- of approximately the same conclusion -- came from my wife, who was a couple of miles ahead of me (as usual) in her SQ5 with the same new shoes as mine; she and I were "open lined" with our mobile phones and with our traffic info nav screens set to 2 miles. She remarked how unfazed the SQ was under the circumstances. And, if you recall, she had just come from 40,000 miles on the previous gen DWS (sans 06) tires. For her the improvement in the DWS 06's vs the DWS is noticeable but not "night and day" noticeable; for me, on the other hand, coming from H rated Continental Grand Touring's, the DWS 06's absolutely have transformed the car into what it should have been from mile one.
Two comments on that:
#1 My fault, my bad, for not fitting DWS's on upon delivery (like we did with my wife's)
#2 Audi's fault, Audi's bad, for selling an "S" car with all-season Grand Touring H-rated tires; anything less than the latest and greatest all-season ultra high performance tires raises the question "what were they thinking?"
Just because an American customer wants all-season tires, does not mean, nor does it even suggest, that the customer expects anything less than the highest performance tires available at the time the car is screwed together at the factory.
Clearly (to me at least) many folks on the other side of the pond don't get some American driver's choice to wear one set of shoes on the car year 'round. When we buy a premium sport-performance sedan -- and request all-season tires -- no where is it written that the performance capabilities of the tires should drop from ultra-high or max performance all the way down to "H" rated family sedan fitments. Yet, today's UHP A/S tires are a compromise -- but time and technology have advanced to a point where a tire like Continental's DWS 06 UHP A/S can provide a performance envelope virtually equal to and in some cases greater than some Max Performance tires.
I would not argue that these tires are fungible with any Extreme Performance or even most Max Performance tires -- but the DWS 06's give up virtually no ground to many other UHP summer-only tires and, as noted can sometimes match the performance of Max Perf models.
The moral, if there is one, of the story is if, like me, you don't want -- for several reasons, including "wheel wear from tire swapping" -- to change your tires back and forth between summer and winter tires AND you live in an area of "moderate" -- not heavy -- snow, these UHP All-Seasons are "the best you can get" [today] (until a better one comes along the day after tomorrow -- probably from Michelin).
Top speed rating category doesn't give the full picture of the performance capabilities a tire will help your ELLPS or LPS car attain.
Most H rated tires do not have what it takes to get the most out of your car, especially the cars we discuss here on this edmunds.com forum.
I have no plans and probably nowhere to even attempt speeds in excess of 130MPH, however turn in, overall performance and even improved stopping power are typically associated with the V, Z, W and Y rated shoes.
I too remember when Audis always came with Z rated tires -- when you have the ability to compare the same car with H perf tires vs Z perf tires or W perf tires, the differences are not subtle.
Comments
Some continue to climb the ladder; others step off at the floor that pleases them, or even step down. Perhaps the vehicle has a steering wheel actually connected (mechanically) the the front axle. Perhaps it has a dipstick. Perhaps you don't have to have it towed to the dealer when the battery goes dead. Perhaps it has real tires and a spare.
Go figure.
I've been up the ladder to the '98 A4, bought new, sport package, 6 cyl 5 speed. I STILL miss that car - but out of warranty at like 60K I started having cooling issues and the dealer of course could not figure it out, to the tune of a few trips of $800-$1200 each. Intermittent on warm days, only when the car was under load like climbing hills, etc. So I got rid of it at 88K, which is the earliest I've ever gotten rid of a car.
I've also been up the ladder on the TL - 150K, very reliable, pretty luxurious, but kind of too big and a bit of a wallowy barge.
"The ladder" of course is many things to many people - it could be cost, acceleration, badge, handling, economy, reliability, any combination of those. Thank goodness we have so many choices. I wouldn't disparage anybody's choices or priorities and so I can completely understand why those who owned BMWs would want something less expensive, or frankly, more involving. In the old days BMW was the high end "involving" make and Honda was probably the low end "involving" make. Nowadays I'm not so sure it's BMW at the high end and it is certainly not Honda at the lower end any more. Which is why Mazda is appealing if you are trying to be economical but still get some involvement.
Funny thing: at my first BMW CCA HPDE with the Mazdaspeed(dead stock, OEM tires) it was raining a bit during the first instructor session. I lapped every car on the track.
Twice.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Perhaps, in response to someone's question regarding why the Q50 isn't setting any sales records, I suggest driving back-to-back-to back the following: Acura TLX SH-AWD Advance, Infiniti Q50S AWD and the Lexus IS 350 F-sport AWD. Of the three, the Infiniti Q50S is the least impressive.
I used to say the BMW 3 was the German version of Infiniti's G37X -- somehow,they (Infiniti) lost their mojo with the new Q50S -- having said that, however, I have confidence they will find it again.
I liked the Lexus so much I ordered one, fully loaded, thinking even a Premium Plus S4 wasn't "within reach" -- but the magic discount offered due to my membership in the Audi Club of NA, plus some very impressive money factors, made the S4, as they say, within reach of us mere mortals.
I vascilate on the IS 350 F Sport. On the one hand, it's a fun drive. Not a "bahn burner" by any stretch, but peppy, with divine steering. Love the seats, too.
On the other hand, it's cramped. Certain features are just confounding. Overall, for high $40s all oaded up (and low-mid $40s discounted), you could do a lot worse. That puts it in the price ballpark of the TLX SH AWD ADVANCE. That's a tougher decision when you factor that into everything.
That C CLass and the interrior, and the "smoothness" of how it drives and operates, while giving up little in the way of ultimate performance can be had in the mid $40s range, too (loaded up and discounted).
Now, all of a sudden, I ask myself "is a 335i worth $10K more?" No immediate answer comes to mind because I'd have to ponder that one long and hard.
No disrrespect meant for those who like the Q50. But, my opinion only, it gets left by the side of the road amongst these others mentioned above. Even the Q50S feels crude by comparison.
The Lexus, especially compared with the Acura, was a bit cramped inside; but after having had a TL, everything seems a bit tighter, and I would quickly forget the relative girth of the Acura. Yet, the Lexus had a nicer interior than the BMW 3 -- of that I am certain.
I am finding out that I am not a fan of the north and south display screens (e.g., in the Q50 and Acura), it makes the interior look a bit chopped up.
To each his/her own on that count, though. I hate the pop up nav screen that is all the rage these days -- looks so much like something from the aftermarket (Pioneer in-dash head units come to mind).
Looking at the 335i xDrive equipped the way I want puts me well into the low-mid $50s. The "5" in that number is a place I don't want to be.
Mercedes 2.0L turbo is smooth, as is the one in the Audi A4.
Still not as silky as say the 6 in the S4, IS 350 or TLX SH AWD, though. Ideally, Acura would slap a urbo on their 3.5L V6. For some reason, except for the previous RDX, Acura has shied away from turbos.
Thursday night, passed by the local Acura dealer. They looked dead. Hooked up with my favorite sales person to get an extended test drive of a TLX SH AWD Advance. You can immediately tell they shaved weight from the previous TL for that car. Much more refined, too....especially the suspension. Handles well. Great leather sports seats, as always. Tight as a drum...even the door slam sounds expensive. Pushbutton trans would trake some getting used to. Stereo, as always was "killer". Not sure what to think of the dual screen layout. Again, seems like the answer to a question no one asked. Relatively quick....thinking mid-high 5 sec range in the 60 romp according to my buttometer...about the same as my previous TL.
Sticker said 46K. Haven't looked at pricing since I'm not in the market. I dunno...thinking it would land somewhere in the low $40s. Very nice car for that kind of money. Performs well. Has all the "stuff" you could possibly want. Built well, as always. Looks good (finally). But, I've always liked the looks of previous gens.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
In recent news, Infinity will upgrade the V-6 part of it's equation to meet current high performance standards for the Q50.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/goodwood-festival-of-speed/11703972/Infiniti-to-build-sporty-models-based-on-new-400bhp-hybrid-V6.html
I think C&D staff has unreasonable expectations, similar to those who buy a small coupe and then complain about rear seat being cramped, or getting a truck and then acting all surprised it doesn't handle like a sports car. It's a four-cylinder diesel that gets you 40 mpg. Nothing is free in this world. I drove 328 diesel, it was fine, exactly what you may want if you are a diesel buyer (I am not, but I think I can understand what people want when shop for one - it's not what 335d used to be).
The badge of course was a bit slight of hand - it's a Euro's 320d model rebadged for here as 328d. The reason is clear, as US buyers wouldn't pay upper market price (couple thousand premium over 328i) for a car with downmarket model designation (320). Badges matter here. It's also simple pricing difference overall (there same models being twice the price here, the differences between model designations do not translate into as significant pricing separation, in relative terms).
I'd like to see some statistics on that transfer case. If it's a real pattern, it's a big issue.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I used the live chat at bmw.uk.co and their reply was the 316, 318, 320 all use the 2.0 engine and the 330, 335 use the 3.0. They are doing the same "label = how it should perform" as in the US.
Yes, the labeling has totally departed the engine size about 10 years ago, or so - even before then it was only loosely related (like 323/325 and 328/330 had same engine size, 3.0 liter). However, 328d is simply 320d from UK/Europe for marketing/pricing reasons. If you look at performance figures of 328d (US), they are significantly lower than 328i, more in line with 320i, which would fit as again, it really is 320d, rebadged.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
BTW, the European love of diesels is clearly weakening. Not that it's gone, but they are not seen as attractive as they used to be. Price of fuel went up so much vs. gasoline (unlike in the US, Europe had had cheaper diesel for decades prior last few years - that was due heavier taxation of gasoline, but now it got offset by higher market pricing due to heavy machinery and generator demand plus more stringent refining requirements), so higher diesel price was offset by better mileage PLUS cheaper fuel. Today, the latter is gone, only mileage is better, so it takes much longer to offset purchase price premium. Diesels are still kings in larger vehicles, like SUVs and crossovers (which are coincidentally getting more popular there), but in smaller and midsize sedans/hatchbacks are getting less and less attractive in diesel versions and the proportions of new car sales are slowly changing.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
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The '14 S4 I ordered came with the no-cost optional all-season tires. The tire specification was, on my part, deliberate since, living in Cincinnati -- the home of typically "moderate" winters -- I know I can't get away with "summer only" shoes year 'round. My previous A4 with the sport option came with 19" wheels and summer only tires, which were great except for two things: 1 - they suck at any temperature below 40; and, 2 - the tread life of the Max Performance Summer Only tires that Audi chose was, optimistically not much north of 11,000 miles. This time, I thought I'd go with an S4 with the A/S's -- and I assumed since I was ordering an "S" car, the all-season tires would be the best of the best UHP A/S's on the market, probably Continentals or Michelins.
Bzzz! Thanks for playing, but the correct answer is that the tires on the car were "H" rated Grand Touring tires, albeit from Continental. The main characteristic of these GT tires was that they were very quiet. Otherwise they seemed out of place, somewhat, on an S4 -- the phrase "under-tired" springs to mind.
We had, prior to driving my wife's SQ5 off the lot had Continental DWS UHP tires put on the 20" wheels, and these tires were (considering they were UHP A/S's) a true pleasure, the best of both worlds, if that is even possible.
So, here we are about 2 years later (my how time flies), she with 40,000+ miles on the SQ and me with 30,000+ miles on the S4 deciding that we had gotten what we wanted out of the tires on our respective S cars.
Meantime, back in the lab, Continental had updated the DWS tires and renamed them, slightly, DWS 06. Now, I have about 75+ miles on my new DWS 06 tires and the SQ gets its new shoes day after tomorrow.
For a 100% back-to-back commentary, we'll have to wait until we can drive in on DWS's and drive out on DWS 06's -- but my impressions of these tires on the S4 are from the context of driving in on Grand Touring slightly stiff sidewall tires and driving out on UHP very stiff sidewall tires (and, now that I've passed 50 miles, the slickness is gone).
The DWS 06's if you need (or want) all-seasons have transformed the responsiveness of the S4 from very good to "I can't believe this is even the same car" great. Additionally, these tires are even quieter than the outgoing GT's and even the "jolts" felt when hitting potholes are now, somehow, felt as if through some kind of energy absorbing compound (flubber perhaps?)
Here's the [current] bottom line:
These tires were designed to end "your" (and my) need to apologize for having all-season tires; there is quite a bit of explanation and detail that goes into what Continental did (or at least how their marketing department explains what they did) -- the sum and substance you can look up, but it all falls under the name "Sport Plus" technology.
SPT aims to provide drivers with much more precise handling (than any other UHP A/S tire on the market) and confidence and security on wet and/or slick surfaces, 35% stiffer sidewalls, and an even quieter ride than the DWS all with a 50,000 mile tread life warranty.
I'd say, thus far, their aim is true. These tires make me REALLY REALLY want to carve up the secondary roads I'm used to in my neck of the woods.
A set of four, for my S4 was $719.56 and was $908.96 for the SQ5 (S4: 245 x 40 x 18"; SQ5: 255 x 45 x 20").
I had mine mounted and road-force balanced (plus a 4-wheel alignment) for $200, at the Audi dealer.
I plan to "drive it like I live" for at least another 40 - 45,000 miles.
Now I do oh-so-sincerely wish I had remembered to order the Sport Differential.
DOH!
245/40/19 Run Flats
DHP-Sport Plus mode- "UNSTOPPABLE".
Since it would be financially crazy to do so, I will NOT be trading the current S4 for an S4 w/SD, but still, these DWS 06 UHP's have totally changed how fast I can enter a curve. It does carve like it's on rails!
In case anyone needs or wants to know: Front inflation [cold], 42 lbs, Rear, 40 lbs. The reason to do this -- especially on Audis -- is that they are nose heavy and when readying for a sharp turn maneuver the load shifts to the front, so I give the fronts a bit more [air pressure] to work with, figuring they need it.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Cclass 8,316 +48.3%
3series 6,891 -9.7%
ES 4,742 -1.4%
TLX 3,986
IS 3,821 -6.7%
Q50 3,470 +43.2%
LaCrosse 2,972 -44.3%
A4 2,863 -14.9%
MKZ 2,543 -14.9%
ATS 2,211 -6.2%
Q40 748 -46.3%
A3 3,482 +42%
CLA 2,381 +44.2%
Verano 2,319 -41.8%
ILX 1,662 +79.1%
Regal 1,528 -12.3%
CT 1,118 -29.4%
1/2series 1,067 +56.9%
The Germans -- and for all I know all of them -- produce new cars, not "refreshes", about once every eight years. My 2014 S4 is so very similar to my 2009 A4 (that I bought in third quarter 2008), it was difficult for me to actually see much difference, even though mine is a "post refresh" version.
Here is what this means: an A4 (and you can fill in the blank for your favorite make) available in calendar 2008 (in the US) is essentially repeated with continuous improvements in 2009, 2010, 2011,2012,2013,2014 and 2015, with a truly new car unavailable until calendar 2016.
Now, don't get me wrong, my 2014 S4 does have many seen and certainly many more unseen improvements over my 2009 A4. But progress, like time and tide, continues to advance -- and apparently the "avionics" are seldom unable to be upgraded, which leaves the last two and sometimes three years of a "model run" possibly out-dated.
It's no wonder the A4's sales (see post above) have dropped nearly 15% (and there have been decent incentives on this model, and it still manages to have a sharp sales drop off). The phrase often seen in the enthusiast's magazines is "long in the tooth" -- and that term is typically used after about 6 years after an all-new model is released.
Now, I'm not simply or just talking about the styling changes that typically go along with an all-new model, no, I'm talking about the wheelbase, width, platform, engine/transmission choices and technology advances, the features and functions (available inside the car) and even the audio systems and safety features.
Yet Audi, BMW and Mercedes seem hell-bent on this 8-year cycle as if they haven't yet noticed the last couple of years of a model's cycle see a big time sales decline. There is some historical justification for delaying the new model roll-out, and there is, no doubt, an economic reason for doing this -- at least there used to be.
Now, new technology -- which makes its way to cars faster and faster and more quickly than ever before -- becomes available about every 18-24 months, which should translate to cutting the 8-year cycle to 6 years, and, frankly, perhaps to 5 years.
Conversely, the rapidity of available [technology] change could argue for the automotive manufacturers to take a page out of aviation's play-book -- that is to allow us at least some reasonable ability to upgrade our car's "electronic" systems. Increasingly, our cars interface with "us" via software controlled devices. Furthermore, even when the new software requires upgraded hardware components, we should be able to swap out the old for the new.
I recently upgraded my relatively old laptop by swapping out a spinning disk-drive for a solid state drive and simultaneously was able to move from Windows 7 to Windows 8 -- and you don't need to get me started on the ability to keep upgrading the OS on my Apple devices; and upgrade my home theater from VHS to DVD to BluRay without having to buy an entirely new home theater system.
Airplane owners have long enjoyed the ability to, as I said, upgrade the avionics of their planes to conform to FAA requirements or to add additional functionality to their planes.
I understand the need to produce newly styled vehicles -- but I believe the life cycles have to drop from 8 to 6 to 4 or 5 years, especially if auto manufacturers remain unwilling to allow us to make some in-between model upgrades. Folks who want the newest styling will always want the newest styling would be my assumption.
Imagine if the new iPhone didn't come out for five years after the last one, or if we had to wait for UHD-TV because HD hadn't been out for at least 8-years, and so on.
Audi, BMW, Mercedes and all the manufacturers who have these impossibly long lag times between the introduction of new models need to get with the realities associated with the Law, Moore's Law, that is.
It had little details with seemingly (at the time) no corners cut. Things like aluminum sills front and back, a power port in the cargo area, lighting for all areas of the interior, and the DSG learned "your style of driving." By the way I don't own the A3 because I sold it at about 8 years old with 106,000 miles on the odometer ($8K).
The new A3 is smoother, quieter, but not as raw and involving. The transmission is tuned to pretend to be a regular run of the mill automatic unless you put it in S. It would be interesting to look at them side by side at the same time for comparison.
I am happy that Audi brought the A3 to market -- my assumption is this model will bring more customers into the fold. Everytime I visit my dealership, I make certain I get in whatever A3's are on the showroom floor. I must say, I think a base A3 without any options, seems out of place next to the RS7, S8, A6 TDI, and Q5's (and sometimes even an RS8) on the showroom floor, however. The higher contented (with sexier wheels) A3's just like the high zoot Q3's have no problem being a member of the family, however.
I have twice driven an S3, and I found them to be quick, powerful, almost visceral -- raw and rough around the edges. For $50K, plus $11 for the ear plugs that would be required, however, I would never buy one. Furthermore, firm is one thing, but the S3 in dynamic mode is harsh, more unrefined than any Audi I've ever driven -- until you get the thing above 90MPH, then it starts to make sense.
But, $50,000+ for an S3 -- which may not be too much considering the content and performance -- seems to put it out of the "boy racer" league, unless the "boy" has Trump as his last name.
The current S4 is showing its age, to be sure, but even though there is a new S4 looming in a matter of months, the current S4, for somewhat similar money, still seems far more refined and its supercharged V6 is sublime compared to the S3's sturm und drang.
The S3, to an older fart like me, reminds me of the first time my then boss let me drive his new Porsche 944 turbo. When I found out how much it cost, I just couldn't fathom why anyone would subject themselves to that much punishment just to be able to have a car that was supremely capable at triple-digit speeds (in an era when the maximum speed limit was 70MPH -- which we have, once again, returned to here in Ohio, thankfully.)
So, perhaps the A3 really is the refined "little" model deserving of the Audi rings; but, to me, as capable -- at speed and a caution to the wind driving demeanor -- as the S3 is, it seems almost more like something that should have been marketed by VW or had its roughest edges filed down and more sound deadening stuffed into every crack and crevice.
My remarks, it should be emphasized, pertain mostly to the S3, and entirely to the S3 when it comes to driving impressions. An upscale Premium+ or Prestige model A3 certainly seems to fit right into the family dynamic, and hopefully the driving experience does nothing but strengthen that perception.
The S3 is a fun car and one that from time-to-time could be a hoot -- a great romp, the Jurassic World Audi, perhaps.
Hopefully this is somewhat of a public service, since I have no financial interest whatsoever in Continental Tires or The Tire Rack or The Audi Connection, despite spending money with all three entities.
The new shoes -- Continental DWS 06's -- have been on my '14 S4 (18") and on my wife's '14 SQ5 (20") for over 300 miles (in my case over 400 miles); and, today, July 8th, is a day befitting a duck -- steady, steady rain. The puddles have puddles, in fact.
This is really the first day I have driven with the DWS 06's on seriously wet streets, roads and highways.
Up until today, my report would have been entirely based on dry-pavement experiences. And, to put a finer point on things, the report I would give would have been easily rendered: Excellent handling, turn-in and bump absorption while being both quiet and comfortable (the latter qualified with the phrase "for an ultra-high performance tire.")
I was in a big hurry this morning for a 9:30 meeting which required streets, secondary roads and two interstates to get to. Of course, it rains -- which, in Cincinnati, at least, brings out a driving behavior reminding me of the phrase "deer in the headlights." You see, Cincinnati drivers appear to never have seen rain, sleet or snow -- EVERY SINGLE TIME it rains, sleets or snows. This leads to -- hmm, seemingly endless (and unexplainable) backups when the coefficient of friction drops (like today) perhaps not much more than 10-15%. Such is life.
With some trepidation, therefore, I decided, initially, that "ACD" (assured clear distance) calculations had to be modified to make certain I could stop rather than ram into the "deer" ahead of me as he/she somehow managed to lose control of their car due to some standing water.
No worries.
The "W" in DWS (Dry Wet Snow) came through like a champ. The car continued to behave "about as normal" -- a rain soaked highway seemed little changed compared to a dry version of the same road, at least as far as I could tell behind the wheel. I half expected some earlier onset under-steer (and I'm sure it would be there at some speed) than on a dry road, but -- with my hand held high in the "I swear" position -- I didn't detect any even on that one curve I forgot about as I winded my way toward I-71S.
Another testimonial -- of approximately the same conclusion -- came from my wife, who was a couple of miles ahead of me (as usual) in her SQ5 with the same new shoes as mine; she and I were "open lined" with our mobile phones and with our traffic info nav screens set to 2 miles. She remarked how unfazed the SQ was under the circumstances. And, if you recall, she had just come from 40,000 miles on the previous gen DWS (sans 06) tires. For her the improvement in the DWS 06's vs the DWS is noticeable but not "night and day" noticeable; for me, on the other hand, coming from H rated Continental Grand Touring's, the DWS 06's absolutely have transformed the car into what it should have been from mile one.
Two comments on that:
#1 My fault, my bad, for not fitting DWS's on upon delivery (like we did with my wife's)
#2 Audi's fault, Audi's bad, for selling an "S" car with all-season Grand Touring H-rated tires; anything less than the latest and greatest all-season ultra high performance tires raises the question "what were they thinking?"
Just because an American customer wants all-season tires, does not mean, nor does it even suggest, that the customer expects anything less than the highest performance tires available at the time the car is screwed together at the factory.
Clearly (to me at least) many folks on the other side of the pond don't get some American driver's choice to wear one set of shoes on the car year 'round. When we buy a premium sport-performance sedan -- and request all-season tires -- no where is it written that the performance capabilities of the tires should drop from ultra-high or max performance all the way down to "H" rated family sedan fitments. Yet, today's UHP A/S tires are a compromise -- but time and technology have advanced to a point where a tire like Continental's DWS 06 UHP A/S can provide a performance envelope virtually equal to and in some cases greater than some Max Performance tires.
I would not argue that these tires are fungible with any Extreme Performance or even most Max Performance tires -- but the DWS 06's give up virtually no ground to many other UHP summer-only tires and, as noted can sometimes match the performance of Max Perf models.
The moral, if there is one, of the story is if, like me, you don't want -- for several reasons, including "wheel wear from tire swapping" -- to change your tires back and forth between summer and winter tires AND you live in an area of "moderate" -- not heavy -- snow, these UHP All-Seasons are "the best you can get" [today] (until a better one comes along the day after tomorrow -- probably from Michelin).
Livin'Drivin' the dream.Mark
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Most H rated tires do not have what it takes to get the most out of your car, especially the cars we discuss here on this edmunds.com forum.
I have no plans and probably nowhere to even attempt speeds in excess of 130MPH, however turn in, overall performance and even improved stopping power are typically associated with the V, Z, W and Y rated shoes.
I too remember when Audis always came with Z rated tires -- when you have the ability to compare the same car with H perf tires vs Z perf tires or W perf tires, the differences are not subtle.