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Comments
Those cost exist for conventional vehicles too and it is something that does need to be addressed. Is there something special about that?
Anything that allows me to avoid going to the dealer is "special". How about a mobile mechanic? (pehub.com)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I say generally because some things may be better being diffused. Individual septic may be better than sewage systems, for example. I don't think that way about tailpipe emissions.
Vehicles will always need service centers of some kind, again, because they are not closed systems---outside air, rain, obstacles, accidents, shock, abuse, neglect and vibration---all of these assault your vehicle in a way that does not exist in static computer systems.
Instead of messing around a week or two, just go ahead and swap the "system" out. Diagnosis and repair just isn't efficient or cost effective any more.
You know it's pretty convenient how it all works out too. The big money is in selling high dollar parts assemblies that take very little talent in the scope of installing them. So labor costs drop even as their price to the consumer goes ever higher, all while the career as a technician becomes even less desirable which serves to make it even more prohibitive to push one's self to become the tech that would have made easy work of a more normal repair. I hope you do enjoy spending $1000 to save the $20 that could have gone to a technician for the same end result.
What Steve said "Instead of messing around a week or two, just go ahead and swap the "system" out. Diagnosis and repair just isn't efficient or cost effective any more" amounts to the same reason why the 2016 Honda repair went sideways just like qbrozens headlight issue did. http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/39864/honda/pilot/repairs-complete-back-to-operational-2016-honda-pilot-long-term-road-test#latest
Proper diagnosis and repair is way more cost effective than complete assembly replacement. But this actually isn't about that cost. It's about what can they do to have greater profits while at the same time have people they have much greater control over. When anyone starts to rise to an elite level, they become the ones who should be gaining control of the job and that doesn't sit well with management that can't competently do the work, let alone do it at an elite level. Steve is preaching what they actually want at the consumers expense. They acknowledge that there is a significant shortage of qualified technicians, and that is only going to get worse especially since they really don't have any interest in addressing the issues that drive people who could have been great techs out of the bays.
No dealer is cheap in their labor charges. You can't blame the consumer for trying to "chisel" on auto repairs at the dealership level because the dealer won't let them. What happens is the consumer pays through the nose AND doesn't get the best work.
So the responsibility here falls directly on the head of dealer management.
FCA dealers are warned of 'bubble' in service work
So what I'm seeing is poorly trained, or if not that, inexperienced techs, being put into a "sure to fail" system that only the best and brightest survive in---and then, the survivors leave anyway to start their own businesses.
My only experience with a tech's life at a big dealership is through the techs who post on YouTube (like "The Humble Mechanic" and he's pretty forthright in his pros and cons). I've learned a lot about the hassles of dealership employment through his video discussions.
With the independent shops, I get to stick my nose under the tent because I'm pretty friendly with them--so I've witnessed a lot of hire, firing, training, successes and failures. I know "what it takes" to make it in an indy shop.
Even in the best shops, there's a struggle with monotony, the occasional dreaded comeback, and a continual and unrelenting learning curve that must be mastered. Working conditions are less than idea (too cold, too hot), break rooms are nasty or non-existent), the commute is often difficult, too. Pay is good, business is good, but man, you need stamina. It's a young man's world, that's for sure.
I do have to wonder if replacing the headlamps is all that needed to be done. Water shouldn't be getting in there, but were both truly defective? Or is there another reason why water is getting in?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Reference Number(s): 08-091-14, Date of Issue: October 24, 2014
CHRYSLER: All Models
GROUP: Electrical
Superceded Bulletin(s): 08-086-13,
Date of Issue: October 30, 2013
NOTE: THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES SERVICE BULLETIN 08-086-13, DATED OCTOBER 30, 2013, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. ALL REVISIONS ARE HIGHLIGHTED WITH
**ASTERISKS** AND INCLUDE THE ADDITION OF TIME ALLOWANCE REIMBURSABLE WITHIN THE PROVISIONS OF THE WARRANTY.
SUBJECT
Exterior Lamp Condensation And Fogging
OVERVIEW
This bulletin involves evaluating lamp condensation and fogging condition.
DISCUSSION
Some customers may report that on occasion, vehicle exterior lamp assemblies are fogged with a light layer of condensation on the inside of the lenses. This may be reported after the lamps have been turned on and brought up to operating temperature, turned off, and then rapidly cooled by cold water (such as rain, or the water from a car wash). Lens fogging can also occur under certain atmospheric conditions after a vehicle has been parked outside overnight (i.e., a warm humid day followed by clear cool night). This will
usually clear as atmospheric conditions change to allow the condensation to change back into a vapor. Turning the lamps on will usually accelerate this process.
A lamp that exhibits condensation/fogging should be evaluated in a service bay environment by first drying all water from the outside surface of the lens and operating the lamp for 20 minutes.
If the condensation/fogging has begun to clear from the lamp lens after 20 minutes with the lamps operating, this indicates the lamp sealing has not been breached, and the lamp does not need to be replaced (Fig. 1).
G09606302
If the condensation/fogging has not begun to clear after 20 minutes with the lamps operating, or the lamp has large amounts of water droplets visible on most internal surfaces, this indicates an issue with the lamp sealing that has allowed water to enter the lamp. In this instance, the customer is also likely to report that moisture in the lamp is always present and never disappears. A lamp that exhibits internal moisture permanently should be replaced (Fig. 2).
G09606303
POLICY
**Reimbursable within the provisions of the warranty.**
TIME ALLOWANCE
TIME ALLOWANCE
Labor Operation No: Description Skill Category Amount
**08-50-31-96 Housing, headlamp inspect for condensation (0 - Low Skilled) 6 - Electrical and Body Systems 0.2 Hrs.**
FAILURE CODE
FAILURE CODE
**ZZ Service Action**
And they don't know where the techs that they hired went......
As far as the FCA dealers wanting to hire 5000 more techs, they want to sell more flushes and other high dollar services, and they want cheap labor (entry level people) to do that. Eventually the novice techs start to gain experience and the reward for that is they get subjected to more events like the above TSB, and get to do less of the gravy work and the cycle of needing to find yet another technician repeats.
If you watched that whole video (I did not, I only scanned certain sections) at a couple points they discussed the technicians career path. They suggested that the career path had the techs moving up the scale from an apprentice (funny, we don't have an apprenticeship program) to a journeyman, and then a master technician. From there the tech could be promoted to be a service advisor, to assistant service manager and eventually a service manager/fixed ops director.
That career path does not exist except for the rare exception. Audi hired in 600 techs each year to go into their @275 dealers. The techs that are already there have likely been made the same promise, that one day they could become the manager too, yet there is already someone sitting in that seat who probably isn't done working yet, nor anytime soon. Not to mention that it is very unlikely he/she came from the service bays anyway.
The service advisor has a better chance to become a service manager, and the majority of them have never been technicians. Even if a technician does manage to become a service advisor, that effectively suspends their career growth and learning that the technicians career demands. It's that aspect of the change that very quickly erodes their skills as a technician and in as little as two years, they would have a lot of hard work to do to try and just catch back up to where they were before the career change.
The technicians career path has to evolve into one that rewards being a technician for life. It has to compensate for the physical challenges that are going to come with age. It also has to account for the wear and tear on their bodies because life long techs really end up paying for the work that they did with their health in their senior years.
That's the problem, not the lack of techs. Lousy engineering.
If the techs don't do that, then he/she has a couple choices. Quit. Work at an insane pace and risk making mistakes. Or they can just do the best that they can, honestly, and wait until someone else decides to do something about a lack of production.
So, doc, I know what you are saying about the techs, but what about the service dept? What does FCA pay the service dept for having my van that long and spending what seems like a ridiculous amount of time on it? Do they just get paid for the final fix and whatever the book says it should take to replace both headlights?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The codes that were setting are P0171, P0174, P0420 and P0430. Here is the freeze frame data from the P0171.
Driving the vehicle and taking a snap shot allowed the following captures to be generated.
What is the next step and why?
It's not like its a tough one like these captures would be.
1995 Ford Taurus SHO. Customer reports vehicle bucks on light cruise. No Check Engine Light, no codes stored. Runs fine at heavy throttle. There have been previous repair attempts at three different shops and by the owner over a six month period of time.
The road test felt normal until the symptom occurred. The feel was a very harsh bucking. There was no way that it was engine related, it had to be the transmission applying a clutch incorrectly.
The blue scope trace is shift solenoid #1. The red trace is shift solenoid #2. The green trace is shift solenoid #3. The yellow trace is the combined shift solenoid current (amperage).
Take your time and analyze the captures. I'll add details later.
Any ideas?
Camshaft synchronizer assembly?
On the Yukon, leaking intake gasket?
The Taurus captures are output commands from the computer to the transmission shift solenoids. What do they show?
Let's see, run a bunch of tests, let the car get tied up in the shop 8 or 9 days and then fix the issue. With that much time you could replace the headlights too.
Or just snap a different engine in there and have the customer on their way in two hours. Three, if the robots are down for their Tuesday update and virus check.
He asks:
RE: A Ford 500 AWD: My car was driven over 40 miles with the transmission unplugged from the computer. Did this cause damage?
I didn't respond because I wasn't sure if this transmission could even operate with it being disconnected from the computer---unless it goes into some kind of default with only reverse and 2nd gear active?
I have no idea what each voltage means or how they interact with one another, but that is probably the easy part to know since it is likely in the source materials for this hardware.
BTW, and what about the catalyst efficiency codes?
The way the solenoid circuits work is all three share the same power input to the transaxle, and then the PCM controls the ground command to turn them on. So system voltage is "OFF", and low voltage is "ON". Look at the second capture at 6.5 seconds, see the cursor? Note the green trace before the cursor and after it.
Now look at capture #1 and compare the green trace to the yellow current trace at the bottom. You will clearly see the current flow rising when the solenoid is turned on. (When the green trace goes down, the yellow trace goes up) That's a false command of that shift solenoid, the question is where is this happening, and what is it about these captures that indicates what is possible and what is ruled out? The manufacturers don't write service information to support testing like this. Trouble trees aren't written to support diagnostics with random failures, in truth they can't be written to do that. If a circuit fails and stays failed for what ever reason, then a trouble tree can guide someone to the failure. These captures show that this car is only noticeably "broken" for as little as 5ms-20ms at a time (sometimes longer) and then just under very specific driving conditions. The failure itself happens a lot as can be seen in the captures, but it does not always result in a symptom.
This is the right way to efficiently do diagnostics with the electronics and computer controls on any car. It requires that the tech has the experience and patience to take every piece of information from the circuit schematic, trouble code description and code enable criteria, TSB's, and any and all service information and then apply that to figure out how to set up the testing. There have been times when I have used routines like this to analyze a failure that didn't occur but one time for a few seconds during fifty plus miles of driving.
The scope was connected at the transmission connector, the current probe was connected to all three solenoid command wires, at the transmission connector as well. Is the problem inside the transaxle, the harness, or the PCM? Explain your choice if possible.
Wouldn't it have been easier to just admit that you don't know how to prove if that is a correct guess or not beyond replacing the seals and then seeing if that fixed the car? You have one chance to be the hero and five to be the goat if the only thing you can do is google guess. Do you feel lucky?
And, what about those catalyst efficiency codes?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Oh, and if it does take you many guesses, well, you're in good company with a lot of mechanics.
Don't forget the nitrogen and the transmission flush when you head to the shop to get that miss fixed.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S