Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy · March 2016

mike, MB went to run flats on newer models. The current C class switched to them.

not sure what will happen when the time comes, but one of my rules in no spare tire, no sale. I know that a few cars with them also have a "mobility" package optional. Plus, some have the space (the Acura ILX comes to mind), where the well and screw hole are still there, and they literally just took the tire out. That could be resolved out of a junkyard!

at least runflats have some functionality. What really drives me nuts is when the car comes with normal tires, and a cheap airpump and can of fix a flat. No way in Hades I am doing that. basically means get a flat, sit and wait for a flatbed. And no option to drive anywhere before a tire store opens.

stever · March 2016

Some runflats supposed have gotten better with the ride quality. The only reason for them that I can see is for minivan soccer moms and to help manufacturers meet their fleet CAFE requirements.

abacomike · March 2016

stever said:

Some runflats supposed have gotten better with the ride quality. The only reason for them that I can see is for minivan soccer moms and to help manufacturers meet their fleet CAFE requirements.

When I was selling Lexus back in the early 2000's, the first run flats I knew about came standard with the SC430, the hard-top convertible. There was no room in the trunk for a spare (that's where the convertible top went) so they were forced to offer the run flats since Lexus was concerned about their consumers rejecting the convertible without a spare.

Personally, I'd be more than happy to give up some trunk space for a full sized spare!

driver100 · March 2016

qbrozen said:

isellhondas said:
Few shops have the equipment to mount and dismount them. If you can drive 150 miles on a flat, that's not going to help in the middle of Montana. No price completion either! They wear quickly and are EXPENSIVE!

Not for me, anyway!
special equipment? I change them with my low-end machine in my home garage.

Don't you need special equipment to put a RFT onto a wheel. The beed is supposed to extra strong, and can't be done with regular tire changing equipment. That reminds me though, of more disadvantages....can't be patched and sometimes they have to be changed in pairs. Also, sionce they aren't as popular, they may have to be ordered (if say you are stuck in a small town).

driver100 · March 2016

abacomike said:

stever said:

Some runflats supposed have gotten better with the ride quality. The only reason for them that I can see is for minivan soccer moms and to help manufacturers meet their fleet CAFE requirements.

When I was selling Lexus back in the early 2000's, the first run flats I knew about came standard with the SC430, the hard-top convertible. There was no room in the trunk for a spare (that's where the convertible top went) so they were forced to offer the run flats since Lexus was concerned about their consumers rejecting the convertible without a spare.

Personally, I'd be more than happy to give up some trunk space for a full sized spare!

My 2008 328 hardtop convertible had run flats and there would be almost no room in the trunk if you had a tire in there...with the roof down. If I really wanted that car I would have to take it with RFTs, you'd have to carry the spare tire on the back seat if you had one small suitcase. With the roof up, I could take my 4 snow tires to the dealer...2 in the trunk and 2 in the back seat......glad those days are over.

tjc78 · March 2016

@qbrozen Pretty sure all cars with keyless start have a fail safe. My Genesis had a slot and the Buick you had to take out the cup holders and sit the fob in that spot.

@abacomike 76, in Florida? We run 72/73 here in humid Jersey. My summer bill can tip toe near $300 for a Ranch house. My system is aging though, and no where near as efficient as the new systems. I'm actually scared of newhigh efficiency units. I've too many stories of not working as well as the older stuff.

@isellhondas I've been in several 500,000 mile Towncars (Crown Vic's too). They really do last.

houdini1 · March 2016

driver100 said:

ab348 said:
Tire also up north. Tyre in Jolly Olde England.

I have run flats on the ATS. Won't have to worry about replacements for a while, but I think I'd get conventional tires and some fix-a-flat.
I considered that too but I think you may really need a spare....not sure if Fix a Flat is good if a tire gets shredded for example

If you do get normal tires where will you put the spare....there probably isn't a place to put it.? They probably use them in the ATS to gain some usable trunk room. And that, is probably where they do make some sense, where trunk space is limited.

Driver, a compact spare tire wouldn't take up much room. I looked at a couple of 2014 E class sedans recently, and the oem tires were run flats, so I was wondering if your '15 had run flats. On one of them the salesman tried to tell me they were not run flats, but extended run tires (tires were plainly marked RF). I told him to show me the spare tire and he said it didn't have one and quickly changed the subject.

stickguy · March 2016

I used to work with a guy that had a 1st gen Mini S. He hated the runflats so got a donut and jack kit. Wouldn't fit in the trunk, so he bagged the tire and stuck it behind the drivers seat. He didn't have kids, and there was no leg room anyway, so worked just fine for him.

My BIL bought a BMW 535 a few years back, and that had runflats too. He didn't like them (common theme!) but discovered when he looked in the trunk, it also came with a full spare tire. Very odd. Needless to say, when it needed new sneakers, normal ones went on it.

oldfarmer50 · March 2016

stickguy said:
mike, MB went to run flats on newer models. The current C class switched to them.

not sure what will happen when the time comes, but one of my rules in no spare tire, no sale. I know that a few cars with them also have a "mobility" package optional. Plus, some have the space (the Acura ILX comes to mind), where the well and screw hole are still there, and they literally just took the tire out. That could be resolved out of a junkyard!

at least runflats have some functionality. What really drives me nuts is when the car comes with normal tires, and a cheap airpump and can of fix a flat. No way in Hades I am doing that. basically means get a flat, sit and wait for a flatbed. And no option to drive anywhere before a tire store opens.

What do you think the time difference is between torquing off those stubborn lug nuts and waiting for a flatbed?

I like the idea of a junkyard tire and jack.

stickguy · March 2016

farmer, I went to Union. Many years ago!

to me, the biggest difference with a spare? If it is Sunday night, and I get a flat, even if I don't change it the AAA guy can. And I am on my way. if I have a shredded tire, I sit there until a flat bed arrives. Then, I get to sit in the car in a parking lot outside a tire store, that may or may not have what I need. Whenever they finally open. So I am in the sticks, staying at a hotel with no usable car.

suydam · March 2016

I know people worry about it, but I can't even remember the last time I had a flat tire.

stickguy · March 2016

I can. about 8:00 PM on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving. sliced a sidewall on Rt. 81 up in PA. managed to get off an exit, but tire was shot. I was able to get a donut on, so was somewhat mobile. If it had been a RF, would still have been dead in the water, since it was not driveable. I assume I would have been towed to a tire store and dumped there, waiting for them to open? I know I was not going to be able to drive to a restaurant and a hotel for the night!

stever · March 2016

I get flats way too often, although it's been a nice long spell since we've had one. Had three on the van that we got about two years ago, all repairable though.

On the '99 Quest, it came with a space saver so I went to a used tire store and found a tire on a universal rim and used that the whole 15 years of ownership for the space. There was plenty of room for it since you cranked the spare up underneath the rear floor. Was a filthy job swapping it out though.

berri · March 2016

Aba, I'll make you cringe - If I had that nice big MB, I'd dump those summer performance treads and replace them with some comfortable and quiet H rated Michelin Primacy's. When you got a luxo barge you gotta treat yourself right buddy, and you know those Michelin's go along with the premium high ball cocktails and imported cigars. I can hear the Sinatra music right now

abacomike · March 2016

berri said:

Aba, I'll make you cringe - If I had that nice big MB, I'd dump those summer performance treads and replace them with some comfortable and quiet H rated Michelin Primacy's. When you got a luxo barge you gotta treat yourself right buddy, and you know those Michelin's go along with the premium high ball cocktails and imported cigars. I can hear the Sinatra music right now

ABBA is more attuned to the Harman Kardon sound system - 675 watts w/14 speakers and 2 woofers. Oh, the wondrous echoing sound system!!!

berri · March 2016

ABBA - well I suppose a slo gin fizz can be considered a cocktail of sorts. hahaha. Actually, sometimes I listen to them too! But I'd maybe go with some Cream or led Zeppelin to test out that audio.

abacomike · March 2016

berri said:

ABBA - well I suppose a slo gin fizz can be considered a cocktail of sorts. hahaha. Actually, sometimes I listen to them too! But I'd maybe go with some Cream or led Zeppelin to test out that audio.

Hall and Oats wouldn't be bad nor would Foreigner!!!

berri · March 2016

Throw in some Journey and you've got a deal!

abacomike · March 2016

abacomike said:

berri said:

ABBA - well I suppose a slo gin fizz can be considered a cocktail of sorts. hahaha. Actually, sometimes I listen to them too! But I'd maybe go with some Cream or led Zeppelin to test out that audio.

Hall and Oats wouldn't be bad nor would Foreigner!!!

"I Wanna Know What Live Is" is my favorite Foreigner single!

berri · March 2016

Boy that's tough, I'd probably go with Cold As Ice or Urgent. The latter so fits bureaucracy as well as more primal needs

abacomike · March 2016

berri said:

Boy that's tough, I'd probably go with Cold As Ice or Urgent. The latter so fits bureaucracy as well as more primal needs

"Second Chances" by .38 Special is also great as is "Right Down The Line" by Gerry Rafferty. My favorite Madonna hit is "La Isla Bonita"!

qbrozen · March 2016

driver100 said:

Few shops have the equipment to mount and dismount them. If you can drive 150 miles on a flat, that's not going to help in the middle of Montana. No price completion either! They wear quickly and are EXPENSIVE! Not for me, anyway!
special equipment? I change them with my low-end machine in my home garage.
Don't you need special equipment to put a RFT onto a wheel. The beed is supposed to extra strong, and can't be done with regular tire changing equipment. That reminds me though, of more disadvantages....can't be patched and sometimes they have to be changed in pairs. Also, sionce they aren't as popular, they may have to be ordered (if say you are stuck in a small town).

It was a BEAST of a job, I'll grant you that. Being a superstiff RFT plus low profile ensure that, for sure. But I don't have anything special and managed. Better equipment would probably make it a whole lot easier, but its not impossible without it.

sb55 · March 2016

My neighbor had a wind generator on a 10 or 15 year lease. It was on a 100' tall tower, so with the generator it was 112' high. They do own almost 150 acres and it wasn't that close to us, but when the wind blew from the north it sounded like a helicopter in our house. Fortunately, the prevailing wind in the Champlain Valley is from the South when our windows are open.
Anyway, about 5 years in the company that they leased it from stopped doing wind and switched their business to tracking solar. He is a state rep here and has some pull, so last year they switched his wind generator to a used tracker. He says the solar covers most of his electric bill and that the wind generator never did. Plus it's QUIET.

driver100 · March 2016

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:

ab348 said:
Tire also up north. Tyre in Jolly Olde England.

I have run flats on the ATS. Won't have to worry about replacements for a while, but I think I'd get conventional tires and some fix-a-flat.
I considered that too but I think you may really need a spare....not sure if Fix a Flat is good if a tire gets shredded for example

If you do get normal tires where will you put the spare....there probably isn't a place to put it.? They probably use them in the ATS to gain some usable trunk room. And that, is probably where they do make some sense, where trunk space is limited.
Driver, a compact spare tire wouldn't take up much room. I looked at a couple of 2014 E class sedans recently, and the oem tires were run flats, so I was wondering if your '15 had run flats. On one of them the salesman tried to tell me they were not run flats, but extended run tires (tires were plainly marked RF). I told him to show me the spare tire and he said it didn't have one and quickly changed the subject.

Houdini, When I bought the 2015 E400 about a year and a half ago the salesman assured me it wouldn't have RFTs, he said Mercedes doesn't use them....he showed me where the tire is stored under the floor in the trunk. I just checked and I definitely have a donut tire in there now.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes and more companies don't start using RFTs. I think they like to make the trunk appear larger....and no need to build a storage place. I really hope they don't go that route....Our 2008 bmw 335 had RFTs and they wore out at about 22k miles. I don't like the thought of having a flat tire in the middle of nowhere or where some guy is strumming a banjo........and waiting for 4 tires being delivered by UPS.

driver100 · March 2016

suydam said:
I know people worry about it, but I can't even remember the last time I had a flat tire.

Yeh, it ain't a problem until one day when you actually do get one.

driver100 · March 2016

qbrozen said:

driver100 said:

Few shops have the equipment to mount and dismount them. If you can drive 150 miles on a flat, that's not going to help in the middle of Montana. No price completion either! They wear quickly and are EXPENSIVE!

Not for me, anyway!
special equipment? I change them with my low-end machine in my home garage.

Don't you need special equipment to put a RFT onto a wheel. The beed is supposed to extra strong, and can't be done with regular tire changing equipment. That reminds me though, of more disadvantages....can't be patched and sometimes they have to be changed in pairs. Also, sionce they aren't as popular, they may have to be ordered (if say you are stuck in a small town).

It was a BEAST of a job, I'll grant you that. Being a superstiff RFT plus low profile ensure that, for sure. But I don't have anything special and managed. Better equipment would probably make it a whole lot easier, but its not impossible without it.

That reminds me of another thing about RFTs. You should have winter tires mounted on rims, it isn't good to switch the tires onto a rim, each time you take them on and off the rim that super stiffness will get worn out.

A lot of garages wouldn't be able to mount the tire unless they had the right equipment....not too many garages in the middle of nowhere with specialized equipment like that.

oldfarmer50 · March 2016

suydam said:
I know people worry about it, but I can't even remember the last time I had a flat tire.

I had a tire leak a few months ago right after lending my car to some young relatives. Must have curbed the wheel and sliced the sidewall. Pumped the tire back up, zipped across the street to the auto store and got a can if fix-a-flat. Didn't need to change anything but the tire was ruined.

Before that I think I have to go back to the 1990s.

abacomike · March 2016

Driver, every time you switch rims, it messes up your tire pressure monitor - you would have to go to a MB dealer to have sensors installed on your winter tire rims. Very costly.

carnaught · March 2016

Prefer go-flat tires, but with my last BMW, my RFT's still had some life in them with over 36,000 mi. on them. They were Bridgestones, not my favorite, but rode quite smoothly.

Talk about low mileage duration, and expense, I'm concerned about that with my current summer tires.

driver100 · March 2016

abacomike said:
Driver, every time you switch rims, it messes up your tire pressure monitor - you would have to go to a MB dealer to have sensors installed on your winter tire rims. Very costly.

Mike, that's another negative about run flats.

When you consider the cost of the tires is actually more you really have to wonder what the real reason is for auto makers to supply them. Not changing a tire on a busy highway or in the dark or in a storm is a big advantage of RFTs, but, I don't think it offsets the disadvantages. I think there is a hidden agenda but I can't figure it out.

stever · March 2016

I think it's the mpg.

"As automakers explore all options to meet the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, they are increasingly looking at the effect of tires on fuel consumption," J.D. Power stated. "Two key tire-related actions automakers are taking to improve fuel efficiency are equipping vehicles with run-flat tires in lieu of a spare tire and using low rolling resistance tires." (Tirereview.com )

I might be able to tolerate low rolling resistance tires okay - what bugs me is that they often are only offered in base trim levels and you can't even get the smaller diameter wheels on the loaded models.

carnaught · March 2016

"Not changing a tire on a busy highway or in the dark or in a storm is a big advantage of RFTs, but, I don't think it offsets the disadvantages."

Although I'm not a big fan of them, being able to drive out of a bad scene, bad scenario does mitigate the disadvantages. I've been there twice in recent years.

henryn · March 2016

stever said:
I think it's the mpg.

"As automakers explore all options to meet the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, they are increasingly looking at the effect of tires on fuel consumption," J.D. Power stated. "Two key tire-related actions automakers are taking to improve fuel efficiency are equipping vehicles with run-flat tires in lieu of a spare tire and using low rolling resistance tires." (Tirereview.com )

I might be able to tolerate low rolling resistance tires okay - what bugs me is that they often are only offered in base trim levels and you can't even get the smaller diameter wheels on the loaded models.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I strongly suspect "low rolling resistance" equals "low grip". While I am not going to be racing my car, I would like a decent grip. Dry, wet, hot, cold, I want my car to go where I aim it, not slide around.

The worst I ever had in that regard (non grip) were the OEM tires which came on the 2005 Mazda Tribute that my wife bought. They were Continental if I recall correctly, looked a little like all-terrain tires, gave the SUV a rugged look. After 3 years, and about 50k miles, the tread still looked great but they had no wet traction. It was my wife's daily driver, I seldom got in it. For some reason, she took my truck one day and I was driving her Mazda down a twisty 2 lane Farm to Market road when along came a brief rain shower. I have never, in any vehicle, over my 50+ years of driving, experienced such a sudden and nearly complete loss of traction.

I was going to buy a new set of Michelins the very same day (right after changing my shorts), but I talked to my wife and she was tired of the Mazda anyway (she really hated the +/- 200 mile range on the minuscule gas tank). So we traded it in for the 2008 Passat, which we both liked a lot more. And strangely enough, that Passat (on the OEM tires) probably had the absolute best grip in the rain of any car I have ever owned.

snakeweasel · March 2016

abacomike said:

stever said:

Some runflats supposed have gotten better with the ride quality. The only reason for them that I can see is for minivan soccer moms and to help manufacturers meet their fleet CAFE requirements.

When I was selling Lexus back in the early 2000's, the first run flats I knew about came standard with the SC430, the hard-top convertible. There was no room in the trunk for a spare (that's where the convertible top went) so they were forced to offer the run flats since Lexus was concerned about their consumers rejecting the convertible without a spare.

Personally, I'd be more than happy to give up some trunk space for a full sized spare!

My ragtop folds into the truck and the roof sits an inch or so above the floor of the trunk and there is a full sized spare under that floor.

driver100 · March 2016

stever said:
I think it's the mpg.

"As automakers explore all options to meet the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, they are increasingly looking at the effect of tires on fuel consumption," J.D. Power stated. "Two key tire-related actions automakers are taking to improve fuel efficiency are equipping vehicles with run-flat tires in lieu of a spare tire and using low rolling resistance tires." (Tirereview.com )

I might be able to tolerate low rolling resistance tires okay - what bugs me is that they often are only offered in base trim levels and you can't even get the smaller diameter wheels on the loaded models.

That sounds logical....but, what an inconvenience if they don't really suit your lifestyle. You should have the option to choose whether you want RFTs or not.

driver100 · March 2016

carnaught said:
"Not changing a tire on a busy highway or in the dark or in a storm is a big advantage of RFTs, but, I don't think it offsets the disadvantages."

Although I'm not a big fan of them, being able to drive out of a bad scene, bad scenario does mitigate the disadvantages. I've been there twice in recent years.

I get that but I think it depends on an individuals driving needs, so I think you should at least be given a choice. That extra 20 lbs a donut weighs can't be that critical....I mean it would be better to make everyone lose 20 pounds.

I have been in a car that broke down on an 8 lane highway, I was on the very narrow left hand shoulder, and with cars going 80 mph I sure wouldn't want to be out there changing a tire....especially in the dark....that is pretty well suicide. But, I can call for road service in that situation.

If I am on my way somewhere on Christmas eve and I get a flat near Pie Town NM I want a spare, so I don't have to wait for a week for a new tire.

It really depends on which tire suits your situation depending on the kind of driving you do.

carnaught · March 2016

"I have been in a car that broke down on an 8 lane highway, I was on the very narrow left hand shoulder, and with cars going 80 mph I sure wouldn't want to be out there changing a tire....especially in the dark....that is pretty well suicide. But, I can call for road service in that situation."

I would rather just drive away than wait for an hour or more for roadside service, to tow my car, along a dark busy or lonesome road. That said, I agree we should have a choice, not have RFT's forced on us.

abacomike · March 2016

Don't forget to move your watches and clocks AHEAD 1-hour before going to sleep tonight. We wouldn't want to be late for church tomorrow morning, now would we?

In my car, I have the daylight savings option on so tomorrow morning the clock in the car should be correct. I have a quartz analog clock in the center of the dashboard and several digital readouts on both info screens.

Michaell · March 2016

Opinions sought; can BMW really refuse to sell a car to the customer at the end of a lease?

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/40045/bmw/x1/recall-preventing-purchase-at-end-of-lease#latest

abacomike · March 2016

Michaell said:

Opinions sought; can BMW really refuse to sell a car to the customer at the end of a lease? http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/40045/bmw/x1/recall-preventing-purchase-at-end-of-lease#latest

Michael, I responded to his question. The only way I think this guy can convince BMWFS to sell him the leased vehicle is to offer to sign a "hold harmless" agreement negating a recourse to sue BMWFS or BMW in case the air bag defect causes an injury or an accident. I, personally would never sign a hold harmless agreement in order to buy a car off lease. Besides, BMWFS will probably look negatively at the offer since Takata is the company responsible for the defect in the first place.

oldfarmer50 · March 2016

driver100 said:

carnaught said:
"Not changing a tire on a busy highway or in the dark or in a storm is a big advantage of RFTs, but, I don't think it offsets the disadvantages."

Although I'm not a big fan of them, being able to drive out of a bad scene, bad scenario does mitigate the disadvantages. I've been there twice in recent years.
I get that but I think it depends on an individuals driving needs, so I think you should at least be given a choice. That extra 20 lbs a donut weighs can't be that critical....I mean it would be better to make everyone lose 20 pounds.

I have been in a car that broke down on an 8 lane highway, I was on the very narrow left hand shoulder, and with cars going 80 mph I sure wouldn't want to be out there changing a tire....especially in the dark....that is pretty well suicide. But, I can call for road service in that situation.

If I am on my way somewhere on Christmas eve and I get a flat near Pie Town NM I want a spare, so I don't have to wait for a week for a new tire.

It really depends on which tire suits your situation depending on the kind of driving you do.

If I had to get stranded for a week that's where I'd like it to happen.

stever · March 2016

Been there, couldn't find the pies.

abacomike · March 2016

stever said:

Been there, couldn't find the pies.

That's because you were "...looking for pies (love) in all the wrong places!..."

driver100 · March 2016

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

carnaught said:
"Not changing a tire on a busy highway or in the dark or in a storm is a big advantage of RFTs, but, I don't think it offsets the disadvantages."

Although I'm not a big fan of them, being able to drive out of a bad scene, bad scenario does mitigate the disadvantages. I've been there twice in recent years.
I get that but I think it depends on an individuals driving needs, so I think you should at least be given a choice. That extra 20 lbs a donut weighs can't be that critical....I mean it would be better to make everyone lose 20 pounds.

I have been in a car that broke down on an 8 lane highway, I was on the very narrow left hand shoulder, and with cars going 80 mph I sure wouldn't want to be out there changing a tire....especially in the dark....that is pretty well suicide. But, I can call for road service in that situation.

If I am on my way somewhere on Christmas eve and I get a flat near Pie Town NM I want a spare, so I don't have to wait for a week for a new tire.

It really depends on which tire suits your situation depending on the kind of driving you do.
If I had to get stranded for a week that's where I'd like it to happen.

Thanks OF....my best laugh of the day!

driver100 · March 2016

Mike, about this bmw lease. Just an opinion, but, aren't some leases closed ended, in that you don't have the option to buy at the end of the lease. The dealer may offer a lower price for the car if they know they can have it back and resell it at the end of the lease.

If you have a contract that states the price of the car at the end of the lease and that you can buy it then I would assume you have a contract and an option to buy if you choose to exercise that option.

At least that's what I have learned by watching Judge Judy and Hot Bench.

driver100 · March 2016

abacomike said:
Don't forget to move your watches and clocks AHEAD 1-hour before going to sleep tonight. We wouldn't want to be late for church tomorrow morning, now would we?

In my car, I have the daylight savings option on so tomorrow morning the clock in the car should be correct. I have a quartz analog clock in the center of the dashboard and several digital readouts on both info screens.

Thanks for the reminder...it is almost 10 p.m. and I am going to put the clocks ahead right now.

Now I see another reason you like to get a new car every few months, that clock that goes ahead by itself in your car is a fairly new feature.....this way you don't have to look up in the manual every year - how to change your clock.

abacomike · March 2016

driver100 said:

Mike, about this bmw lease. Just an opinion, but, aren't some leases closed ended, in that you don't have the option to buy at the end of the lease. The dealer may offer a lower price for the car if they know they can have it back and resell it at the end of the lease. If you have a contract that states the price of the car at the end of the lease and that you can buy it then I would assume you have a contract and an option to buy if you choose to exercise that option. At least that's what I have learned by watching Judge Judy and Hot Bend leases are very, very rare.

As for the agreed price to buy the car at the end of the open-ended lease, if the car has a defect and is still under warranty, but the fix for the defect is months off in the future, the car cannot be sold until the defect is eliminated. But, as I mentioned before, a hold-harmless agreement would relieve BMWFS of the liability, IMHO. However, knowingly selling a defective or potentially defective vehicle may be governed by federal and State law.

My guess is that is the reason BMWFS will not sell the car.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2016

Hey I want that hour of my life back!

berri · March 2016

Easy come, easy go

imidazol97 · March 2016

oldfarmer50 said:

stever said:
Been there, couldn't find the pies.

Were you looking for the right kind of pies? I grew up on a farm and we had cows for part of that time... just sayin'.

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