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Via con Dios,
me.
As I said this is my opinion.
Is "fivespeed" a cajun? He sure writes like Justin Wilson talks (all in jest, of course). I've never heard anything definitive on the use of synthetic oil straight from the factory. I've heard people recommend that mineral oil be used at first so that high-spots on cam lobes be worn and mating surfaces properly "mate," but, I know Porche and Chevrolet (Corvette) have used factory fill Mobil1 for years (as well as many other manufacturers). I've also heard of some companies using friction modifiers or "break-in" oils for the first oil change to rememdy this problem. It certainly wouldn't hurt to wait a change or two before using synthetic fluids, but there's no evidence that says you can't - although, asking the manufacturer is the safe thing. Again, they are just people, and not the engineers who built and designed the engine.
Problems with synthetic oil and engine seals results from sludge and varnish deposits being removed from the detergents in the synthetic oils. I switched to synthetic in my '84 olds with 181,000 miles with no problems. In addition to some of the additives I mentioned above, there are also additives used to make the seals swell. The list goes on. . ..
Question for adc100 - where have you read that the advertised viscosities can differ appreciably from the actual viscosity? Oil manufactures/processors go to great lengths to ensure that a quality product is headed to the shelves. I've never had a problem with Mobil1 in my new vehicle, or Pep Boys 10W-30 which I used in my 1984 Olds Firenza.
Probably 90% of drivers operate under the "severe service" guidlines of their owner's manual. So, frequent oil changes ought to be the norm for most people. 3K is recommended for my Durango, but I know 5K/5mo is the servere service for V6 Camry's. Arguing on behalf of synthetics is the reduction is engine sludge. Frequent oil changes will minimize the production of sludge - even with mineral oils. But, with synthetics I have never experienced ANY sludge buildup. For that, the fluids are remarkable. The cold weather flow properties are also impressive.
Oil drain interval must be weighed on a cost/benefit scale. Many manufacturers recommend a 3K servere service interval, while others offer a 5K, or others still have 7500 mi. I used to believe in the 3K inerval, but am more inclined to go to 5K these days. How much benefit am I really getting from changing my oil 3 times more often per year. That's an additional $90 per year. It's not a significant amount, but, it's still 90 bucks. And, is that really doing me much more good? Today's engine technology is leaps and bounds beyond where it was in the early 80's. Lubricant technology for mineral oils as well as synthetic oils is also far advanced over what it was. A good quality mineral oil changed according to manufacturer's specifications should take an unabused engine's internals to 200K without incident. How many of us will have the same car for 200K mi? Some will, but not many. My dad had a 1985 Dodge Van with the 360 cid. He used the cheapest off the shelf 10W-30 and got 265,000 miles from the van. Compression was great, cam lobes were within spec - and we sold the van to someone who neglected to check the oil level and seized the engine 2 weeks after purchase. The rear seal leaked from 25,000 miles, other than that, none was coming out the tail.
I use synthetic oil. I could be delusional and there may be no long term benefit. But, I do feel that synthetics are superior to mineral oils based on the literature that I've read. And, I want to do what is the VERY BEST for my car - and thus chose to use Mobil1 in the crankcase, 75W-90 synthetic gear lube in the differentials, and synthetic ATF in the transfer case. Mobil doesn't make a synthetic that satisfies Chrysler ATF+3 specs, so I may try Amsoil synthetic ATF+3 in the tranny. Has it been worth the cost? I don't know, but I feel better knowing that the mechanicals are protected the best that I can.
Enough of my rambling. Later.
Service reps bounce around shops/dealers like mechanics do, few really know the cars they are bringing in for service, they simply know how to write an order.
Sorry, off the subject of oil but this is what usually happens when you ask the service rep about the use of synthetic, they usually know nothing about them, say it will void your warranty and say to get your oil changed every 3000. THIS IS ALL THEY KNOW! They have received no training on synthetic lubricants.
Hey adc 100, I have a question regarding your response. Please understand that my knowledge of all things automotive is limited. My question is that if I am sacrificing engine wear for mileage with the 5w-20, why is it that under normal driving conditions the manufacture says I can go 7500 miles between oil drains? I would think if 5w-20 sacrificed engine wear for mileage gain I would have to change it out at 3500 or 3000 miles. This is not a slam, I really don't understand.
Anyone who wants to provide information on the above questions is more than welcomed to. Thanks again for your time.
These 5W20 oils bother me. If the engine was truly machined to tighter clearances then a heavier weight oil may not be the best. Need an auto engineer to answer that one.
Taass: I read that informationin Journal of Tribology or Automotive world. Can't remember which or the month. But the jist of it was that oils are constantly tested in the market place by, I believe it was SAE. The percentage of oils that did not come up to specs in terms of additive package quality, Viscosity, cleanliness was shocking I'll give you a number like 30%. As I recall there were threats of fines or actual fines. I'll try to locate the article. I know it was a back issue of one of the publications. Believe me I'm not making it up. I was shocked.
Al
As a part of oil analysis they send back the weight of the oil sampled. Only once did my 10W30 come back showing up as a 10W40 weight. And, I don't know if oil changes weight over time due to use??? Their tests were on new oil I assume.
The viscosity increases I was refering to were mainly for conventional oils. The testing done for API certification involves various 64 hour "sequence" tests. In these tests one of the criteria for passing is limits on viscosity increases. That limit is around 350% increase. Once you get beyond the 64 hour tests conventional oils become "TVTM" (to viscous to measure) Syn oils breeze through double, tripple , and in some cases quadruple time test values. They can't advertise this fact because of court rulings. Of course taking the time to read and research information is fair game and provides useful information for those who are interested in learning. This contrasted to the some folks who say there's "no proof" that syn is a superior product.
Again for those interested read SAE technical paper 951026. Unfortunately it costs 20-25 bucks from the SAE site.
BTW Welcome to Walmart has 5 qt. Mobil 1 for $17.88, that's as low as it gets. Even though I'm going to try Redline, couldn't resist buying a couple.
The New Year night from 1978 to 79, the temperature was around -40F in Moscow, Russia, with -50F in some parts of city and in several suburbs. -40 to -45C.
Though, even in Russia (the Central European region, not Siberia) this happens very seldom. I was 45 when immigrated, and it was the very cold night I can remember.
I remember well that trouble with starting my friends' cars usually began at about -30C to -32C (-22F to -26F). Not unusual for the places, but still seriously cold.
Typically, only one-two nights were so cold during the whole winter. Probably one winter in three was warm, and the temperature never approached these numbers. On the other hand, about one winter in five was more cold, and it was around -30C roughly every second morning for month, or two, or even longer.
As well as I remember, the problem was not so much with oil (even not synthetic), as with weak batteries. The cars jump-started fine, but it was difficult to start the first car in the neighborhood. Some of my friends removed the batteries at evening, when expected a strong frost, and kept them at home overnight. One friend installed a big battery from a big track in his trunk, and had no problem with starting.
The price is right, averaging about $2.50 a quart instead of $5.00 a quart. If conventional is good for the 3000 to 5000 mile interval "recommended" by most manufacturers. Would a blend offer some of the alledged superior advantages? The advantages I see are better starting in extreme cold (N/A for me, rarely goes below 35 here) and resistance to thermal breakdown.
Would a blend be a good choice for someone who changes the oil regularly by the severe service schedule while maintaining some economic sense? I just can't see going from Quaker State 10W30 at about $1.50 a quart to Mobile 1 (or any other) at $5.00 a quart.
In short, is mixing synthetic and conventional create an oil "better" than conventional or does it create a monster like the teflon additives?
I am about to pick up a new Dakota with the 4.7 and am wondering to stick with "true and true" or try something different.
I am absolutely driven when it comes to the care of my vehicle. You couldn't pay me to use a Fram Filter and 3K conventional oil changes. It's OK for some but not for me.
I can't say that any car I am familiar with was damaged bu using a filter on sale and changing every 3000. No oil/filter should "damage" your car. I am aware of how my vehicles last and run with good filters and syn oil though.
I'd suggest you try it and I'll bet you will observe the benefits and leave the 3K boondoggle behind you.
Namfflow: Blends are about 10% syn. Waste of money. I'm thinking that your new Dakota 4.7 is worth an extra couple of bucks a year for the 100% syn. If you are bound and determined though. Just buy a quart of Mobil 1 and mix it. Some syn is better than none.
Al
To those changing every 3000. If your new car came with cooper plugs that needed changing every 15,000 would you keep doing that if you knew platinum plugs could go 60,000, or coolant, that in lieu of changing every 24,000, could go 150,000. The same is true for oil. So why don't manufacturers put synthetic in engines like they do coolant or plugs. Two reason I believe. First, oil chagnes are one of the few things that require an owner to come back frequently (unlike coolant or plugs etc) , every 3 months or so, so this is killing the golden goose and two, most owners do not look under their hoods unless there is a problem. With synthetics I think the manufacturers would feel more warranty issues would surface as owners would believe the engines required "no" service forever. This board has people who service their cars, most people have no concept of what their service schedule is.
The only issue that is still left for me is the whole warranty issue. Many manufacturers of various products will use any excuse they can to get out of honoring a waranty. The Japanese manufactureres are the worst for this.They blame the owners for all the problems. Of course my vehicles are Dodges so that isn't an issue. I like many have never seen any engine failures as a result of oil problems unless it was never changed. Saw one like that In 76 I saw a 70 Dart that had a valve cover removed, the sludge was so thick it looked like the inside of the valve cover was a molded plastic insert. The owner never changed the oil since it was new. No wonder he had problems at 50K.
Anyway, the jury still seems to be out as to the ability to extend the oil change interval due to warranty issues and whether the filter can trap the junk after 3000 or 5000 or 7000 or whatever.
True on the warranty side they must prove the oil did the damage but why even go there?
I will most likely, just to keep Dodge from using any excuses stick with the OEM schedule. I might be able to go with the "normal" schedule which I believe is 7500 miles. Even if it is 6000 miles that is still 2 times the life at that the synthetic becomes econmically viable (I also do my own changes).
I have one more conventional oil change left to do on Dakota #1 to use up my 10W30. At least I finally found the Purolater Pure One filters. I will give these a try. Even though I never had problems with Fram and they used to be the best. I know being in manufacturering that it doesn't take much to start making crap and how can most people tell on a product like this? Besides that stupid hand grip they added is enough to make me switch. Thing is a pain in the you know what.
armtdm, I wouldn't use the sparkplug analogy if I were you. Most people I've talked to agree that the platinum plugs deliver SLIGHTLY less efficient performance ... but seem to last practically forever. I still use copper plugs, but I change them almost once each year.
Yes, the synthetic blends are a bad investment. They cost 50% of the price of synthetic but offer only 10-20% synthetic.
Synthetics DO NOT cost more to use than dino oil ... at least not significantly so. If you take the following points into account:
1) Synthetic oils save you fuel in the form of reduced internal friction and pumping losses ... at least 1-3% depending. This is hard for most people to notice ... but can save you $5-15 per year if your fuel bill is $500.
2) You can extend the drain interval safely. I would change out dino oil and a filter about evert 3-4K miles. With Mobil 1 I go 5-6K and with Redline I'm gonna try around 9K miles between changes.
3) Synthetic oil doesn't burn or boil off like mineral oil does so there's less (or in my case no) topping off between changes.
When you add all of these three factors together, they cancel out the price difference ... or reduce it to $2-3 annually which is insignificant when considering the price of keeping a car on the road these days.
--- Bror Jace
I just spent the morning returning all the "Mobile 1" I paid $4.00 for (Kmart sale last week), and replaced them with these large 5qt containers.
Now if I could only find the "Mobile 1" filters on sale......
With 2 cars x 2 changes per year x 4.5 qts per change this will be $18 economy during the next 12 months, comparing with buying the oil at usual price at my usual place: $4.49 at Pep Boys.
Looks as it does pay to drive to Wal-Mart this Monday, and to buy 4 bottles. Though, one of my cars is using 5W-30. Is the cheap Mobil-1 available in the weight?
Later
I have changed the oil a grand total of 5 times and the 6th time will come due at 90k miles. Oil consumption is app 1/4 to 1/2 qt at the 14k mark.
This vehicle not only is a stop and go 5 day a week daily driver with 35 miles one way, but on the weekend is the "load box" on wheels for the recreational trips.
The last time the dealer had the valve covers off was at 60k, for the HIGHLY recommended valve check and adjust. Not only did the valves fall within specifications, but the technicians were amazed at how clean the inside of the motor was.
If I had used the 3k interval with conventional oil, I would be on the 28th oil change. I am also sure the oil consumption would also be higher, but on this vehicle specifically, I have not been able to do an A/B test. Incidently the local dealer does the oil changes with me providing the oil and filters.
The comparison also depends on how cheaply people acquire their oil. Some folks say Mobil 1 is 5 bucks a quart. Maybe if you don't look around, but it's easily had for 4 bucks a quart and often even less.
From a cost standpoint why would you want to do that? Conventional oils fulfill the manufacturers cycle of 7.5k oil changes or whatever your manual says.
It's like going to an old doctor, sorry but if I have a strange new illness I want a doc only a few years out of his residency, he knows the latest procedures!
I may have mentioned this, but one of the things that impressed me the most about syn was that there was this old mechanic who worked in a power plant for a bizillion years. He said that in his whole career he never saw anything so dramatic in the area of a change which helped the longivity of a piece of mechanical equipment. It was that the plant switched to syn in ball bearings of a coal mill. The balls in these bearings are over an inch in diameter and they ran at 275 Degrees F.
Overkill for our cars-you bet- thats me all the way.
What does our manual say as to what is normal?
Thanks
Al