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However for this poor Seoul in Korea with limited choices, Penzoil synthetic will provide better gas mileage.
4x4 2.8L pick-up. It had 69,000 mi. According to Owners handbook, original owner changed oil to Mobil 1 at 6,000 mi and left it in for 25,000+ mi. When i changed the oil, it was jet black and thick. The valve covers had a grease/mud build up. Oil pan drain area had sludge formation inside. I used motor flush for 30 minutes and changed the oil every 1500 mi. using motor flush each time until oil drain was mud free. Vehicle sold with 144,000 trouble free miles. I used AC PF47/Fram (mini filters) and 10W-30 Dino oil (all makes). Vehicle never experiencied oil burning. Consumers reports gave this vehicle a very poor rating. I was lucky to have a good one. Very gutless but great off-road.
After reading prior posts, am wondering about extended drain intervals (6000 mi-all freeway) with Mobil 1. The Pennzoil w/Pennzane cost more than Mobil 1. But if it offers sludge free protection maybe i should consider it.
Regards to all vehicle lovers
Andy
Based upon my experience over the past ten years if you are going to go beyiond 12,000-15,000 miles between oil changes you probably should be doing oil analysis as well. Contrary to what Amsoil will say etc. I cannot tolerate the analysis results beyiond 12,000 miles, simply too much silicon build up and fuel as a % of vol creeps up there as well. Perhaps the engines will run indefintiely with 25,000 but I don't like the sample results I get beyond 12,000. And for 99.9% of people 12-15,000/year is average and time for a change anyway.
I have been doing 15k or once a yr oil changes with 5w30 Mobil One for many TLC's and for many miles. (over 550k) Since all of them require a valve adjust or check, at measured intervals, the valve cover comes off. I have never had sludge issues with the Mobil One. I do use OEM filters. When I do get parnoid and want to change the filter at 7.5k I substitue out a Fram ph8a filter. At the 15k oil and filter change, I will use a OEM filter.
I've read the recent 200 posts or so, and most of the talk is centered around Redline or Mobil 1. My car has about 35 000 kms. right now, and I'm considering switching to synthetic. I'm planning on using Toyota full synthetic oil. I could always go ahead and buy Mobil 1, but thought that the Toyota "full synthetic" would be just as good. Any thoughts on this?
It has been my experience that Genuine Honda, Genuine GM, Genuine Ford (Motorcraft) stuff available through dealerships has been significantly more expensive.
And, in the case of motor oil, I don't think it would be any better. After all, you know THEY didn't make it. They had a petroleum company make it for them. Yes it would be to Toyota's specs ... but what does Toyota demand that wouldn't be found in some other synthetic oil?
It would be interesting to know, however, what the Toyota synthetic stuff was ... PAO? UHVI crude?
--- Bror Jace
I have no idea if it's PAO or UHVI. My main goal is that I'd like a clean running engine as I intend to keep my car for a long time. I live in Canada where there are temperature extremes: winters can sometimes dip to -30 C here, sometimes -40 C overnight. Summers are scorchers and very humid. I keep my car garaged, but it's very humid there. I do mostly highway (75% highway). I'm thinking that by switching to synthetic, my engine would be better protected against drastic climate changes, and avoid some deposits on lifters and etc.... some have also recently talked about sludge in Toyota engines, and this is also something I want to prevent (the sludge seems to be caused by excessive heat in a few engines, which breaks down the oil viscosity and forms "sludge"). My understanding is that a synthetic oil won't break down like dino oil?
1. Toyota cannot fault you if you have a sludged engine if you used their oil.
2. If it is like the Toyota conventional oil it is Quaker State. Quaker State is a PAO, not a Hydrocracked Syn like Castrol.
Since Frequent (3750) oil changes are now recommended you might want to consider Penzoil synthetic as well. It has an excellent cold flow temperature rating (www.pzlqs.com)I'd normally ask you to look at Maxlife, but it's cold flow rating is only -40, not -58 like Penzoil synthetic, and MobilOne.
As many of you know, I posted the analysis results from the Mobil 1 in my 98 chevy truck. I was pretty disappointed in my results. The extremly high lead content may be a result of a beginning mechanical problem which may not be the fault of the oil, but I'm not entirely convinced of that. Other areas of concern on my analysis, were when comparing most of my anti-wear properties to the universal averages, mine were lower and in some cases, significantly lower. Another area of concern was that the viscosity of the oil was slightly outside the normal range it should be. When I talked to blackstone labs on the phone, he indicated that the oil was starting to thicken. I asked him other questions about Mobil 1 and he didn't seem to be very impressed with it. I told him I thought this oil was supposed to be good stuff and he replied that I definatly pay more for it.
I talked to a technical guy at Mobil and will be faxing him a copy of my analysis. There were a few things that concerned him. I'll post back when I hear what he says.
Wayne
I did notice also that one of their 0W-30 oils was giving half of the wear of their 1994 oils on double API Sequence IIIE(high temp/high speed). BTW this was only 1/3 of the allowable wear of a single length test. Thats why I'm not concerned about their supposed lack of wear additives. With respect to the supposed low level of anti-wear from Boackstone: Mobil does not use the ZDTP additive rather a different form of it. It's probably not a valid result.
Email me for that report.
Makes me wonder about Blackstone??/ Anyone know the corporate structure, who may own them etc, etc., Is there any reason for them to condemn Mobil 1 or is it pure coincidence????
Again, I remember your analysis on the Mobil 1 and I think that you are jumping to conclusions on their results. If you are not sure about using Mobil 1 then how about trying a different lab as well to confirm the comments and results????? Personally I am beginning to doubt the level of expertise and comments made by the lab personnel as they seem to be overly opinionated on types/brands of oil (their job is to report results and interpret them) and place too much emphasis on their averages when no two engines wear alike and additive packages vary tremendously between oils.
But, that's just my opinion!
I suppose a few web-links to some of this info would be enough to answer my questions. Thanks!
Yes, I think that GM could turn out a bad engine now and then. I said this before. They may know that the basic Chevy small-block V8 (and its derivative V6) is so inherently strong that they can slap them together without a great deal of care. Most will make it to 100,000 miles (easily past the extended warranty period) and by then the original owner probably has gotten rid of it, the body is starting to rust and many other components will begin to fail. Rando seemed to have gotten one that couldn't quite go that distance ... and I can't blame the "thin" (now fairly thick by today's 5W20, 0W30, 5W30 standards) oil he used during the vehicle's life.
If the crankshaft in an engine were improperly ground or slightly misaligned, for example, wouldn't that contribute to higher levels of wear metals ... especially in the first 20-30,000 miles? Might this also contribute to premature bearing failure?
Well, WTD, we're all waiting on you. Are you changing brands of oils or are you going to re-test again at a shorter interval (the same interval?) with Mobil 1?
As was pointed out, it would be interesting to know if Blackstone Labs has any affiliation with any oil company. That would significantly threaten their credibility. Bill, the Maxima guy, won't use one lab because he said it was affiliated with Amsoil and he wants an unbiased opinion of their oil when he uses it.
As for biases, the only bias Blackstone will admit to is a bias towards oils that have very bland additive packages because the funky ones which include silicon, sodium, copper, etc ... tend to mask telltale signs of trouble they look for in oil. That seems a little odd, like waiting for you to get really good and sick before taking any medicine (especially preventative medicine) but there is some logic to it ... in a Dilbert sort of way. >;^)
I don't know which mass-market oil I'd recommend it in its stead. Perhaps Havoline or another PAO based oil, with a heavier additive package (look up their MSDS sheet on-line)? I know I'm not going to recommend any UHVI crude formula marketed as synthetic anytime soon. It may be pretty good stuff ... but it is overpriced compared to traditional synthetics.
adc100, regardless of the type of zinc used, ZDDP or other, it should all show up on a mass spectrograph or other lab test. Think of the way silicon shows up from dirt or bits of gasket as the same thing.
Mr. Detailer, you said that Quaker State synthetic is PAO. Well, while this was true at one time, but Pennzoil and Quaker State are now one company and I would expect their oil formulas to merge together and Pennzoil is UHVI crude. It's just a matter of time. The marketing of the two brands may continue to be independent but it's much cheaper to make the formulas identical. Their infrastructure isn't going to homogenize overnight but it needs to happen eventually in order to save costs. Plus, UHVI crude is about half the cost of PAO ... which only makes it more likely that Quaker State will be UHVI crude in the future. I'd keep bugging their toll free customer service line (and/or e-mail) for formula details if I was considering using Quaker State oil. Heck, I'd do the same thing to Toyota's customer service department as well. These companies will know that there are some knowledgeable customers out there and will be less likely to monkey with their products if they know they will receive a backlash.
As it is, I'm content to keep using my specialty oil and watch the mass-market synthetic soap opera from the safety and comfort of the sidelines. >:^D
jfz219, Val Synpower used to be almost 100% PAO but has recently been changed and is now a blend with a great deal of UHVI crude oil (63%?).
--- Bror Jace
..."Yes, I think that GM could turn out a bad engine now and then. I said this before. They may know that the basic Chevy small-block V8 (and its derivative V6) is so inherently strong that they can slap them together without a great deal of care. Most will make it to 100,000 miles (easily past the extended warranty period) and by then the original owner probably has gotten rid of it, the body is starting to rust and many other components will begin to fail. Rando seemed to have gotten one that couldn't quite go that distance ... and I can't blame the "thin" (now fairly thick by today's 5W20, 0W30, 5W30 standards) oil he used during the vehicle's life."...
I looked with interest on your comments about the ubiquitous Chevy 350 V-8 small block. I also read that since inception, GM has produced over 66 M of these. When they first began manufacturing the 350 V-8 it cost $84.53 to produce. Curiously, Chevrolet still uses the 350 V-8 in the flagship Corvette, the LS1 and my specific interest, the LS6. While these are far different engines that when they were first manufactured, statistically there will be at least 12.5% or one standard deviation that will be "poor" "bad". The real question is: is the management, labor and manufacturing process' in place to cut that down to less than say, for example 6%-3%, and how do you deal with the 3-6% that are less than satisfactory. On the LS6 engine anyway, and I would assume for the LS1 engine also, I read that the targeted statistical mileage is 175k. While in fact the numbers may not be fully known, a 3-6% unsat rate for a production model yr of say 34000 Corvettes would be 1020 to 2040 engines. As you probably would guess Mobil One is factory fill for the C-5 Corvette. So in that sense, synthetic oil is no magic bullet for manufacturing concerns.
I think that the only objective method of determining how the oil performs from an anti-wear perspective is to look at the over the road testing. And as late as 1998 the results indicated that 25K and 18.75 oil drain gave excellent results. To predict the results of a population of oil performance one needs reliable and sufficient numbers in a sample. I've still not seen objective /reliable(for me) information here. Again-I'm not adverse to switching to something else. I'm sure Amsoil is fine-but I can't really say for certain its any better(or worse).
And getting back to Hershey Bars predicting the taste by analyzing all of the elements in the candy bar is far inferior to determining the taste by actually tasting the bar. (I used Hershey bars because I live 15 miles from the factory.)
Later,
Al
IMHO when a lab sends the results to anyone that may be a first time user (not in their database) they should send reams of brochures on what analysis is and how to interpret results and not jump to conclusions etc. I don't think any labs do this.
I agree and actually, I don't care if my additive package is zero at the time of my change, I care that the wear metals are similar to my last analysis and within normal limits for the miles on the oil (very important) for the engine being sampled. Especially for example 30ppm of iron at 5000 miles is fine as would be 90 ppm of iron at 15,000 miles. Wear metals are relative to mileage (variable) whereas some are fixed like silicon, fuel as a % of vol, total solids as a % of volume etc.
I talked to a guy in the technical department at Mobil about my results. The cutoffs for alot of the elements are higher than Blackstones are. For example requarding my lead. My results were 55ppm and Mobil's cutoff is 50ppm compared to blackstones 20ppm. He also told me that blackstone appears to be using an old method of determining viscosity which on my sample was slightly higher. The guy was concerned about my lead levels and had me fax my analysis report to him. He also wants me to fax my next results to compare. He did say that my anti-wear property levels seemed low since he said that they put alot of it into their oil. He also said that I should think about switching to 10W-30 instead of the 5W-30 since I don't live in a real cold climate. He also said that the new formula of Mobil 1 due out in a couple of months are the best that they have ever had.
I'm going to wait and see what my next results show and see what this guy at Mobil says before I decide about switching oil.
Wayne
If all three said 50 ppm of lead then that is normal wear for that engine, the trend has been established and in fact, a good lab, on the third or fourth analysis, would not even flag the 50 because it would not be abnormal for that engine.based upon the previous two or three samples. When that 50 jumps to 75 ppm then the trend has been broken and reasons sought.
Based upon numerous comments and lab posting results on several boards I am beginning to feel that these analysis labs are indirectly (or directly) pushing more frequent oil changes. Maybe laibility reasons who knows but too many posters are becoming nervous over the lab results of one sample when these labs print out averages of what they think your engine should be wearing like. They are not the experts on your engine, you are. Lab result interpretation is an ART, not a science.
You will be more of an expert on your engine after a few analysis results then they can ever be, remember that! Further, most printed results on lab reprots are done by computer formula, a human never interprets the results unless you call for an explanation. For example, if the analsys says 50 ppm and the previous one said 25 and the mileage on the oil is the same the computer will flag it as 100% increase and print a warning. There is no human interpretaion here, all software driven! You are the best interpreter.
--- Bror Jace
On another note, I've never seen people that take their engine oil so seriously! (this is a good thing)
Thanks again.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not terribly convinced with Mobil's response about the lack of zinc in the oil sample. They said that it should be on the metal and not floating around in suspension? Well, that seems just silly. OF COURSE the EP additives should be on the metal but a lot more of that stuff should floating around in suspension. This is the case with additives in ALL other oils. It would be nice if the lubricant makers could engineer a perfect formula where every molecule of additive homes in on a specific part of the engine like a Hellfire missile on an Iraqi tank but to my knowledge that's not the case. You have to put enough additives in the formula for it to swim around and sooner or later enough of it will find its way into the correct places. Limited stauration bombing, if you will.
If Mobil has some special zinc formula that is attracted to metal parts and leaves none in suspension, I'd love to hear about it. You'd think such a development would be heralded in their advertising?
I seems to me that Mobil is simply adding less (even if it is of a superior type) which is what their literature, their MSDS sheets and lab analysis all suggest.
Anyway, at least Mobil seems interested in investigating this and they didn't merely blow everyone off. A dismissive response is the kind of thing that needs to be punished by consumers immediately spending their money elsewhere.
--- Bror Jace
Second guessing what’s in a bottle of oil, and if it’s good, is a fun hobby, but doesn’t necessarily tell you what you should do. If you want to go past: buying a brand name oil, changing it every 3,000 miles and run the car for 150,000 miles without wearing it out because of the oil, you have to do more work. You learn all you can, pick an oil that based on its data sheet meets your needs and then get the oil analyzed to determine if it’s doing what you want it to.
Also, I was told that it really wasn't necessary to use synthetic if I change my oil every 5000 miles, and according to the tech. people at the dealership, it would be a waste of money. At least I appreciated that the _dealership_, of all places, was telling me this. They could've used this as a money grabber.
Anyway, your comments on this would be appreciated, as I am undecided if the extra expense to switch over to synthetic is really worth it.
There have been a few posts on this forum questioning whether or not Exxon is almost as good as Mobil 1. I think the concensus was probably no, although I think it is a PAO. I assume dino. Exxon is about as good as most of them.
1. Be dropped- note likely
2. Relabled Mobil 1 in Exxon container
3. Become a severely Hydroprocessed Oil (Fake Synthetic)
If it were me I would use the Mobil 1 or Amsoil and keep in for 7500 miles. Basically there is some question as to the design of the water jackets at the Piston head. They made them smaller-so some say- to increase combustion temperature and thereby improve combustion efficiency. I believe the number I heard was 270 degrees. Syn should be able to survive that handily.
first they're the pinnacle of reliability and fit/finish, and now because of 0.1% complaining, they're trash. Anyway, that's a whole other discussion board in itself, which I won't get into. *sigh*
Anyway, on the sludge discussion boards, someone said at one point that he contacted an oil analysis lab scientist, and the latter said that a regular oil would be better for sludge, because dino oil contains additives that cling on "sludge" and bring it to the oil filter, whereas the synthetic doesn't do that.
But I wouldn't buy one of the cars that's affected by "gel" (lol). This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Who knows? I, on the other hand, don't believe this is the tip of the iceberg at all. Every manufacturer makes a few engines that have defects in them. I remember my parents' Malibu that knocked after the first 1000 kms.. Toyota isn't immune to problems like gelled engines, but these problems are less likely to happen with a Toyota.
Do you put synthetic oil in your Elantra?
I feel, as I have stated several times, they are living and selling cars on past glories!
I've done quite a bit of research and test drives before buying my Solara, and I don't regret buying it one bit. The fit and finish of my car, along with road manners and serenely quiet cabin, is almost Lexus-like. So, in a way, you're right because I thought of Toyota's past reputation on quality, but after test driving the Solara and others (like the Honda Accord coupe), I could very well see that Toyota didn't cut corners with the Solara either. Quality is still apparent with Toyotas today, and it's obvious since it's been a top-selling car for the past few years. Sure, reputation is a consideration when buying a car, but it's not what sells a car. If we obeyed that logic (ie: reputation sells a car), then Hyundai wouldn't be selling so many cars as it is today. As you may know, it has a horrible past reputation, but what sells? The car NOW. There's an article in the recent Automotive magazine that compares the $25,000 Mercedes against the same-price Hyundai. Very interesting comparison!
So a sludge issue comes up with 0.1% of people so far. Maybe other people will show up with this problem so far, maybe not. I was thinking of putting synthetic in my car way before this sludge issue came up anyway, since I intend to keep this car for a long time, and it seems, from what I've read here, that engines last longer and kept cleaner and free of deposits with synthetic oil. Since sludge is caused by oil viscosity breakdown, then synthetic would logically protect against this problem, then all the more reason for me to switch to synthetic oil.
Wind nosie, power steering start squeeking at 16k miles, the trunk lid mismatch with rear fender to name few. For the money, it still was good buying but Toyota really cut the cost and they are minor defect really. But with this "jell" stuff, this is a big deal. We are talking about engines and it will stop the car. Period. They screwed up, where is the margin in case people do not change their oil per the schedule (some people claim they changed their oil per schedule and still had sludges), they are not much better than other brands now.
I'll take this opportunity to ask a question posed once before. What ever happened to SI and SK? Were these standards that were abandoned before they were implemented?
I'm not a huge fan of QS, primarily because of their tie in with Fram filters and Slick 50, but figure any API oil is going to work fine given a 4000 mile change interval. I also understand that Wal-Mart could re-bid tomorrow and the oil could be another brand. Since most house brands are rebranded major products that wouldn't bother me (unless they throw out Champion filters for Fram that is).
My complaint about Toyota is not that the problem happened, but the way they handled it.
I agree with you that at this point it is a rare problem. But it is also a clear weakness of the vehicle that has to be watched. My personal view is that synthetic or a hydrocracked every 5,000 miles should be more than adequate protection. I recently converted an older car that I want to keep for many miles to Maxlife. A significant factor in that decision was not only it's care of engine seals, but it's anti-sludge properties. It costs the same as a syn blend so it's not a ripoff like Castrol Syntec.
The cost of the sludge repair is so high it might as well be an overhaul. Compare this to the minor inconvenience and expense of a few extra dollars for frequent oil changes and the decision becomes easy. No extended oil changes on Toyota. No conventional oil in them either. I want to buy a Highlander in a couple of years, and I will check carefully for this issue.
The engine was redesigned in 97, minor revisions but it was revised. Basically the same one used in the model/shell change that occurred in 92 but I believe aluminum heads added post 92 as well some other changes in the emissions and overhead valve dual cam engineering.
Well, I don't think this is a realistic way to pick an oil because they ALL claim to give maximum protection and performance. The only way to cut through the bull and hype is to examine their ingredients via MSDS sheets and lab analysis ... which is not a perfect science. Everyone does it a little differently.
As for pour point, nearly every synthetic 5W30 pours at -45F or lower so I have never seen this aspect of oil much of an issue unless you are mounting a trip to one of the globe's poles and even then, weight is the issue, not brand.
Regarding Toyotas (or Nissans) and sludging, it always seemed to me to be a mere handful of cranks complaining and spreading unfounded rumors and I've stayed out of that topic because I found the whole thing difficult to believe.
--- Bror Jace