Synthetic motor oil

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Comments

  • gregtranggregtrang Member Posts: 11
    Are all the Fram filters considered to be cheap construction? I usually buy the Fram Tough Guard, not the cheaper basic filter. I have always been a Fram Filter guy ever since oil filters were tested in Consumer reports around 10+ years ago.
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    A couple of people did "tear apart" tests which is where I got my Fram information. Generally consensus is that if they are made so poorly on their basis model vs. other manufacturers, why take a chance on them? If you see the websites that tore them apart, it is pretty discouraging - materials, number of pleats, cardboard endcaps.

    That having been said, I have used Fram when no alterntive was in stock, but with 3,000 mile oil changes I wasn't too concerned.

    Keep in mind that some offbrand filters are made by Fram. I had a Quaker State installed for $8 only to discover later that Fram makes QS. Ugh. Felt ripped off.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yeah, ultimately dispite the "seemingly" poor construction, etc. the ultimate test is oil analysis which most critiques of FRAM are short of. I have used FRAM for many years/miles with 15k oil change intervals. The last one was a 1987 TLC sold with app 250,000 miles.
  • dustykdustyk Member Posts: 2,926
    The so-called critique of Fram filters is sophomoric at best and a good example of juvenile science. You cannot do a simple comparison of materials or construction without operational testing and proclaim a product as "junk."

    For those that aren't aware of the history, the "well known" criticism of Fram oil filters can be traced to one individual and one web-based article that has been repeated many, many, times over. The author may have had an axe to grind and continues to distance himself from the original publication. Web owners have been advised by legal counsel to "tone down" the article, and in fact more recent presentations have been significantly edited with the emphatic pronouncements and false statements removed.

    I find it curiously hypocritical of of those that continue to defend the original source and the unfounded conclusions by saying that the author was not performing a "scientific analysis." If it was not an attempt to look at different oil filters scientifically, then the so-called analysis is worthless. The defenders continue to defend because doing otherwise might be construed as an admission that they got taken in by the illogical analysis and flawed contentions that resulted.

    In reality we know nothing of how the various makes of oil filters perform nor how the materials or construction impacts actual operation from the Fram attack article. The only thing proven to be junk about Fram oil filters so far is the originating source of the myth that they're "junk" and that permeates the web.

    Dusty
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Two other things about the filtering in conjunction with synthetic oil use: 1. Since upwards of 80% of so called "wear" occurs at start up; meaning that synthetic oil alone does not prevent this "wear", the utilization of the so called "preoiler" would greatly decrease both the wear and byproducts of wear. 2. Bypass oil filters, combine with oil analysis can keep intervals at 10,15,20,25k with not too much concern (yes I know this is akin to cursing in church) . The real concerns can be measured by chemical oil analysis, i.e., is the additive package doing the job chemically given differing circumstances that each vehicle is operating.
  • kirbstoykirbstoy Member Posts: 53
    Over the past 20 years or so, I have used Fram oil filters with absolutely no problems. I have also read the negative comments about Fram on different boards. I currently use Mobil-1 in both our vehicles and recently changed-over to the Mobil-1 filter (Camry) and a K&N filter on the '03 Tahoe.
      Last night, while watching a TV show on Discovery HD called "Rides", they followed the construction of a '32 Ford Hot Rod for the two daughters of Vic Eldebrock. They showed how the small-block Chevy motor was hand built in the Eldebrock shop. While assembling the engine, the builder attached a FRAM oil filter! Given that Elebrock can afford anything in terms of building the engine for his daughter's hot rod, I was impressed they chose a FRAM oil filter. Just another anecdote...certainly not scientific...but interesting, none the less.
  • gregoryc1gregoryc1 Member Posts: 764
    Why would anyone use an aftermarket oil filter? Use the filter designed by the vehicle manufacturer! I get an oil and filter change, by the Honda dealer, for $17.99 + N.J. tax. I get a Honda Filter with this oil and filter change. Even if you use synthetic oil, I would still use the Honda Oil Filter.
  • desertrat5desertrat5 Member Posts: 85
    I have a '04 Bonneville with the 3.8 V-6. I changed out the factory oil at 4000+ miles even tho the Oil Live Indicator in the DIC said I still had 61% life remaining. The new oil was Valvoline 5W30 dino but I would like to go to a synthetic at the next change. A couple of questions:

    1. What does the Oil Life Indicator use to determine how much life is remaining? The owners manual says it looks at temperature and rpm. Anyone have any more specifics about the algorithms used?

    2. Any experience out there with synthetics and the GM 3.8 V6? Good, bad, brand, etc?

    Thanks

    Desertrat
  • pulgopulgo Member Posts: 400
    Why would anybody use different brands of oil, mineral or synthetic? Why would anybody use a different brand of tire, or gasoline, or car stereo?

    Because there are very good products out there in the market place, many of them less expensive and of much better quality than the factory recommended ones.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Not to be mean, but why not use other brands? I do my own oil change. I go to Walmart to get the oil and filter. For one thing, retailers (at least Walmart) don't sell manufacture brand filters; and secondly if you have the oil change done at the dealer, you probably don't have a choice but to use the manufacture's brand. And I believe manufacture brands exist as an extra avenue for profit rathan than as a better quality alternative.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Ever since I stumbled onto that aforementioned website I switched to Fram Toughguard from the regular Fram. Haven't noticed any problems with either.

    This past winter I had several oil changes done at Walmart (too much snow, too lazy). I requested Penzoil 5w-30 and Fram Toughguard be used and paid a little extra. Each and every time, they put in the wrong weighted oil and had to redo it, even after I emphatically warned them! Frustrating indeed. And last time they put in too much oil in my 91 Geo Storm. I'm too lazy to jack it up and drain it, so I'll have to live with it. Hope it won't do too much damage to the engine.
  • kirbstoykirbstoy Member Posts: 53
    We take our '00 Camry to Wal-Mart for oil & filter changes. I buy the oil (Mobil-1) at Wal-Mart and buy the Mobil-1 filters at Auto Zone. When I arrive at the check-in I ask them to do the work and (so far) haven't had a problem with them screwing up the instructions.

    I did, however have an incident several years ago where a Wal-Mart technician stripped the threads on the oil-pan drain. My new-car dealer found the problem, I called the Lube-Express manager at the Wal-Mart and the next day he sent an inspector to view the problem. Wal-Mart ended up buying me a new oil pan from the dealer and also paid for the labor. So, I continue to return to Wal-Mart Lube Express even though they are routinely slow and always short of personnel. Good luck!
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Maybe I too should buy the filter and oil and hand them to the mechanic to make sure they don't screw up. The first time they screwed up the manager apologized and refunded all my money. It was nice to have a free oil change but again my by-then-fussy toddler and I had to wander around inside Walmart for another 30 min. Hardly worth it. I noticed like any other business, some of their technicians do a better job than others, e.g. checking the oil level very carefully when adding.

    I think I'll only bring my older car to Walmart and keep doing my own oil chances on my new car whenever possible.
  • amcanoeamcanoe Member Posts: 9
    A good friend of mine switched to Amsoil 5W30 in his Chevrolet van, with a 350 cid engine, and reported an increase of 6 mpg on a trip that he takes regularly. He had checked his gas mileage several times when taking the same trip using a petroleum oil in his van. Needless to say he continues to use the Amsoil synthetic in his van. I forgot to mention my friend is the pastor of a church.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I have been using group IV synthetic oils (Mobil One 5w-30 and recently Delvac One aka Mobil One Truck & SUV) for so long and so many miles (INXS of 660,000 miles), that I tend to forget it offers less resistance and less heat retention, that can result in various mpg gain! I also particularly like the 15,000 mile oil and filter change intervals that it allows!

    Somewhat off topic, but along the same concept lines; I have one vehicle that had: 1. synthetic oil in the engine 2. conventional oil ATF in the 6 speed manual gear box 3. synthetic oil in the differential. I swapped out the conventional ATF with Mobil One ATF and have effected a 1 mpg overall consistent gain.
  • kirbstoykirbstoy Member Posts: 53
    I have a 2003 Chevy Tahoe, 2WD, 5.3 V-8 and an automatic trans. Do you know if the factory fill for the transmission is a synthetic product? Chevy says the transmission doesn't need servicing
    for (I think) 100K miles. I can't live with that, so I'm going to have a complete transmission flush done @ 30K. If the factory fill fluid isn't synthetic, I'm going to change it to Mobil-1. I've always run Mobil-1 in the crankcases of both the Tahoe and my 4 Cly. Camry. Thanks !
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    I don't have a Honda and this is from memory, but I think that Honda recently gave their aftermarket filter production to (gasp) Fram.

    With Wal-Mart, I've found that directions left with the service writer has little or any impact. I usually put instructions (substitute ST for Fram filter) on a sign mounted on the dash. That usually gets their attention.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I don't know for sure, but being as how the Corvette's WAS conventional dextron, (when gear oil and engine oil was synthetic? ) if I had to guess, I would say NO!

    The fact of the matter is that the machine will run just fine with the conventional ATF. However like you, I was chomping at the bit to change it, and I did to Mobil One ATF (synthetic)!? Just be sure that what the OEM calls for is covered by the specification of the Mobil One ATF. The reason why I say this is it can be a tad counter intuitive to need ATF in a 6 speed manual like mine!! :)
  • chamisulchamisul Member Posts: 1
    You do get what you paid for, but any brand you buy make sure it meets or exceeds 10 to 20 microns in size, this is the most important.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    I have a 2000 Buick 3800 SC and have been going 12,000 miles between changes with Amsoil syntehtic 10W30. Used Oil Analysis is fine, this engine is easy on oil, does not beat it up. I simply reset the oil life indicator when it gets close to 7500 and keep on going. Has over 60,000 miles now. Just purchased another 2000 Buick with the 3800 and converted it to synthetic as well.
  • carglowcarglow Member Posts: 91
    I just purchased an 05 Corolla. I was thinking of changing to Mobil 1 at 1k miles, then every 3k miles.

    My driving is almost 100% city and only average about 6k miles per year. Sometimes after 6 months I still don't have 3k miles so I'm concerned about wasting a premium product like M1.

    Should I just use conventional oil?
  • brozhnikbrozhnik Member Posts: 172
    VW specifies 5W-40 oil for the 2003 Passat 1.8 Turbo. I've been using Valvoline 5W-40 synth oil and as far as I can tell it works fine.
    But as I approach oil-change time, I notice that now Mobil 1 has added this weight to its synthetic lineup. Here's my question: Mobil 1 calls their product "Truck and SUV SAE 5W-40 Synthetic oil" designed for "Gasoline and Diesel Fuel Engines". It provides "outstanding protection for gasoline powered trucks and SUVs" and "hard-working diesel powered pickup trucks and SUVs."

    This does not sound like my car, which is a smallish sedan. Is this Mobil 1 oil really designed only for trucks and SUVs - is it in some way different from the Valvoline 5W 40, making it less suitable for my comparatively litte Passat? Should I stick with the Valvoline? Or is this Truck/SUV thing just market "positioning" - would the Mobil 1 would work fine in the Passat?

    Thanks for your help!
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    The "Truck and SUV" Mobil 1 is simply repackaged Mobil Delvac 1 heavy-duty synthetic; their product data sheets are identical. While that oil would perform well, the proper Mobil 1 grade for your Passat is 0W-40. That oil meets VW standards 502.00/505.00 and 503.01. An examination of the Synpower 5W-40 and Mobil 1 0W-40 product data sheets leads me to believe that either oil will do an excellent job in your application.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Seems a bit extreme for such a high end product. Why don't you run an oil analysis after about 4 or 5K and extend the OCI accordingly.
  • carglowcarglow Member Posts: 91
    I thought you had to change ALL motor oils at 6 months including synthetics (M1) due to condensation
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    I ran 5-30 in my 2001 Golf for most of the 44,000 miles I had it; although towards the end I tried using 5-20. Oil consumption was the same with either oil. The normally aspirated 2.0 liter engine has an oil cooler so I was pretty comfortable running the thinner weights of oil. The manual and the dealers I used both said that in America 5-30 was fine since 5-40 at that time was pretty hard to find (I tried it once, but lost 3 mpg so stopped using it!). The dealers said 5,000 mile oil changes were fine; I think the manual allowed up to 10,000 mile oil change intervals on the assumption that synthetic would be used (you can't get 5-40 except in a synthetic so far as I know, whether here or in Europe). 5,000 mile intervals seem pretty reasonable based on all the oil tests I have seen on oil test websites. My Golf used about 1 quart every 2,000 miles, so I gave up using synthetic. 5-20 appealed to be because it is a much better engineered oil than the typical 5-30 non-synthetic.

    In Europe most of the oil specs seem to be at the heavy end of the viscoscity scale - 40 weight. Over here we emphasize fuel saving, thus the 30 weight and more recent 20 weight trend. Who's right? Wish I knew. Neither region of the world seems to have a lot of oil smokers or early engine failures. Possibly the Europeans drive more like maniacs than we do, thus the love affair with thicker oils, or maybe the engine tolerances are different (looser to allow for better oil flow?). Who knows. It's an oil mystery the message boards haven't covered, to the best of my knowledge.

    As for six month oil changes, I was always under the impression that the time element in oil changes (though usually ignored) is designed to take into account frequent short trips, notoriously hard on oil.

    When I lived in an urban environment and only used my car for long weekend trips, with resulting low annual mileage, but most of those miles on the freeway, I ignored the time interval and just changed oil every 3,750 miles.

    My mom, on the other hand, is a real "short trip" person who hardly warms up her car, and I tell her to take it in every three months (the most conservative time frame) even if she only has 1,000 additional miles on it.

    I hadn't heard the condensation issue before. I think it is legitimate in the "short trip" model but doesn't apply to the "driven once a week on the freeway" model.
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    will result in a lot of fuel dilution in the oil. I would change it 2 or 3 times a year with conventional oil. M1 is really not called for in this application as it will show thinning due to fuel dilution as well.
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
  • carglowcarglow Member Posts: 91
    What's a short trip?

    My daily commute to and from work is 6 miles each way, all city traffic.
  • krzysskrzyss Member Posts: 849
    6*2 = 12 miles per day
    12 * 5 = 60 miles per week (assuming weekday work)
    60 * 52 = 3120 miles per year

    Krzys

    PS if you have no vacation :-)
  • carglowcarglow Member Posts: 91
    Which would provide the most protection for my 05 Corolla?

    GTX with 3k miles oil changes OR
    M1 with 5k miles oil changes?
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    M1 with 7500 oil change intervals
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    I agree with armtdm; I'd run the M1 out to the maximum change interval suggested by Toyota.
  • carglowcarglow Member Posts: 91
    Thanks for the input. Toyota recommends 5k mile OCI in the 05 Corolla, and there's no stipulation for "severe conditions".

    Right now I'm planning on changing to M1 @1k miles then change every 4k miles or 4 months.

    I don't drive that much, 6-8k miles a year, but mostly stop and go city traffic. Wally World here charges $32.74 for M1 and a Supertech filter, so, I can have clean M1 for less than $100/year.
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    Almost all lube shops, and even dealers, strip oil pans. The independents are worse because they don't have new drain bolts to put in when the old one looks bad.

    For this reason I highly recommend installing a Fram Sure Drain. This is an "install once" drain bolt that allows you to change oil on future oil changes by unscrewing, by hand, a dust cap and then screwing on a special drain tube that unlocks a rubber seal assembly in the Sure Drain.

    Fram's marketing on the Sure Drain is poor. They make it sound like the Sure Drain is for idiots who can't un-do a drain bolt. In fact, it is a solution for grease monkeys who torque the heck out of a plug to insert it back in, and begin the process of tearing up the threads on the typical aluminum pan.

    If you go this route, Wally World is as good as any (they are certainly nice enough over there). But make sure you give them the drain tube each time and make sure they know what to do - some mechanics just ignore the dust cover and remove and replace the entire assembly with a wrench, defeating the whole purpose!

    This won't work on Chevy's. They use a special drain plug with a built in rubber 0-ring - a nice set up. I think this is their approach to oil pan death, a widespread problem (know three people personally, including myself, who've had drain pan death).
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, I haven't seen the plug on any of my three cars for years, and yet, I do all of my oil changes. How can that be? Simple, I bought an oil extractor that sucks the oil out through the dip stick tube. Does this method get all of the oil? Yup. Have you ever decided to actually wait until the dribbling and dripping from your drain hole stopped before putting the plug back in? I have, and I've never actually been able to wait that long. In the case of my oil extractor, the first time I used it on each car, I crawled underneath the car and pulled the plug AFTER the extractor was unable to suck any more oil out of the pan. When said plug was pulled, NOTHING came out! Well, maybe that is stretching the truth a bit, I think I got a drip or two each time. ;-)

    Oil pan drain plugs? I don't need no stinkin' oil pan drain plugs! ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fkozilfkozil Member Posts: 65
    Shipo,

    Where can I find an oil extractor?

    Make, model, price, etc.?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    The MityVac unit that I use can be found at the following link for $64.99.

    http://www.griotsgarage.com/search.jsp?searchtext=10122

    And again at this link for $62.86.

    http://www.casporttouring.com/store/merchant.mvc?store_code=CST&a- mp;screen=PROD&product_code=24502

    Given their closness in price, I suspect it will come down to who has it in stock and what the shipping charges are going to be (I've heard that some folks have paid as much as $30.00 dollars to have this thing shipped. IIRC, I only paid about $12 for mine.)

    Please note, it seems that the MityVac is not compatible with these models:
    1999 - 2003 Corvette
    1999 - 2001 TransAm
    Late model GM/V-8 engines
    2000 - 2002 Ford SUV's (Explorer, Expedition, Excursion, Mountaineer)
    2000 Ford Taurus
    1992 - 1994 Toyota Camry
    2002 - newer Porsche Carrera (dry sump oil system)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I have the very same one. (Mity Vac) I don't use it on the 1999-2003 Corvette (found out by this post that it is not compatible) because I have/had to jack the vehicle up to get the oil filter anyway. (oil plug is less than 15 in away)

    I use it on a VW Jetta TDI with top front oil cartridge filter access. I can literally complete the oil and filter change in under 8-15 mins! This also includes putting back 1 gal of oil.
  • fkozilfkozil Member Posts: 65
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't think those of you with modern cars need to worry about fuel dilution. This was more of a problem with carburetor-cars and the early primitive injection systems. The stop and go driving pattern causes more severe wear because of the number of cold starts.
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    still occurs with modern cars. My friend has a 2001 3.8l Chevy. 3 mile trip to work each day and the oil analysis on his M1 showed plenty of fuel at 6 months and 1.5k miles.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Then he has a defect I think and a potentially dangerous situation that he and/or the dealer should address.
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    is not unusal for 3 mile trips over a 6 month period without an oil change.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yes I understand, but the suggestion was that there was LOTS of fuel observed in the oil, which is dangerous. Big diff between that and "residue".
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Could this cause engine backfire? My 91 Geo storm did this twice in the last 4 years. At least that's what I think happened. Both times while driving along I just heard this loud "boom", I thought I hit a stone or something. I came out to inspect the car, and saw the muffler was all crumpled as a result of what looked like an implosion. Nothing else seemed to have broken and both times I only needed to replace the muffler.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hard to say but probably not. If the fuel dilution is in the oil, the explosion would be in the crankcase, and would probably blow the oil pan to pieces. It's pretty violent when it happens, and pretty rare, too.
  • kcflyerkcflyer Member Posts: 78
    At WalMart I noticed a different variety of their store brand. It is described as a Synthetic Blend. The back label isn't too specific but says it contains both natural and synthetic oils.

    It's twice the price of their non synthetic but far cheaper than name brand "pure" synthetics.

    Can anyone tell me if this product is worth the difference in price over non synthetics. Our is this "blend" just a pig in a poke?

    I change oil and filter every 3000 miles (about every 3 months) I have avoided synthetics up til now thinking the high price wasn't worth it since I change so frequently. But for the modest price increase I would switch to the blend if it offers a true improvement in engine protection.
  • yurakmyurakm Member Posts: 1,345
    Do not know specifacally about WalMart, but usually it is next to impossible to know how much synthetic oil is in blends. There are rumors that only about 20%. As in old joke about a rabbit ragout: 50/50, one rabbit and one horse.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    I bought a used super charged suburban a while back...and heard all the good stuff about syn oils...so I decided to give it a try....so started using 5-50 syn oil by Pennzoil...

    boy, after a few thousand miles, I noticed the engine started to drink coolant, at a rate of 1 gallon/ 3 days....so I just replaced it and was too stupid and lazy to bring it in,,,,waited 10 days before I got it in...but by then the anti freeze got into the bearings...so needed a new engine....

    so now the suburban has a new engine..and I put about 15,000 miles on the new engine already, with about 4 oil changes ...

    question for all you knowledgeable people...

    Is it OK or advisable to switch to synthetic oil now ? I heard that its OK after 3 oil changes...and that syn oil protects the engine better. However, I an leery of the cleansing properties will dry out a gasket and cause another leak and may need another major work or new engine ?!

    How come some people put syn oil in thier American car with no problems ?

    Can you all help me ? I was hoping for 5 diff POV on this...thanks...
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