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Synthetic motor oil

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Honda DOES still today in 2005 use a specially formulated "break-in oil" which is higher in molybdenum, which in essence just helps the break-in process occur faster.

    Absolutely true, I swear it. That's why they always say in their manuals not to change to oil before the first scheduled change.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well okay, molybdenum it is then...I never argue with factory engineers, they are smart people. But I am enough of a smartass to ask how many Honda engines blow up immediately if you change the magic break in oil too soon. :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Hi to THE HIGHROLLER! Long time!

    I hope I am not beating a dead horse here about Mobil One 5w30 and my 15,000 mile OCI's.with cheapie FRAM (2 for 5 for the PH8A) and oem oil filters :)

    On one level this has been boring to me for 129,000 miles or 9/10 oil and filter changes. But boring is good!!

    My 1994 TLC (with 116,000 miles at the time) was summoned to a CA "Smog Only" station. The smog only station is NOT good news, for it is tasked to get a MUCH higher rate of redlining vehicles and by law can not FIX smog problems. They charge more for a smog test and are capital equipted and mandated to give a far more rigorous smog test. So I brought it in BEFORE a much needed 120k mile MAJOR tune up interval.

    It passed with FLYING COLORS!! The SMOG figures were almost at when it was brand new in 1994!! Based on the figures the test and also the bi annual smogs tests were total and utter waste of time energy money etc. So I bring it in app 126,590 miles. One of the inspection items is looking at the innards, specifically to check the valves adjustment and if it needs it it is a 200-300 dollar item and the Bosch hot chemical system flush (another 200 dollar item. So to say they have incentive would be belaboring the point. So anyway bottled back up and the mechanic AGAIN commented on how clean the innards were and he noted some of the original factory tool markings.
  • flytedhyflytedhy Member Posts: 63
    There is such a thing as break-in oil and even a break-in oil filter. Both MB and VW use them. Most companies won't go to the expense though and don't have them. Break-in though is a relative term as the engine will break-in on almost any oil, though if it wasn't designed to use 100%synthetic as the original factory oil, the engine should have 7-10k on it before the switch.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    While I would like to believe; oil analysis of factory fills just does not pick up the "secret" ingredients.

    Now I did hear one person say (for Honda Civic specifically) there is break in oil and it specifically has some agent that traps particles and deposits them on the oil filter!!?? (lower than the micron rating for most OEM filters).

    The way I have heard it explained which to me is more logical is the factory puts say a bit extra moly during assembly as part of the process and the OEM fill has a higher dose of moly to begin with. Also after the initial recommended time the factory has NO functional control over what oil a customer or dealer puts in. So at least for that recommended interval: 10,000 normal and 5,000 severe they can bank on that.
  • highrollerhighroller Member Posts: 351
    Hello To RUKING1 glad to see you on here

    For my break-in/synthetic switch solution for my 06 titan, i will switch to synthetic once my odometer hits 1000 miles. That seems like a safe bet, and assuming that i will get approval by nissan to do this. I think i should be able to even though i have a warranty and a maintenance plan.

    I would like to ask 2 questions: one regarding viscocity & weights and one about break-in

    If i switch to synthetics on the new truck, is it more beneficial for the pistons,cylinders, etc. to use the 10w30 synthetic for my 1st oil change and then switch to 5w30 ?

    Also,

    i know this is off topic but since all break-in discussion board is gone or so it seem, i hope i can ask here..
    My truck is 5 speed automatic, do i even need to break-in those 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st gears so that the those gears can be in optimal level later or just stick with the Drive gear to break-in?

    High :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    On the subject of 5w30 vs 10w30, given either of them is specified for your vehicle, I personally would use the 5w30.

    As for the 5 speed automatic just use the D gear for normal break in. I again only use those gears for special purposes, more passing power, letting the engine rev more per cycle etc etc. As you probably know an automatic transmission is more about fluid dynamics that actual gear teeth.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You know I've heard this but have never found one ounce of evidence to support the theory that you can't break in an engine with synthetic oil. I see no reason why you can't switch to synthetic anytime you wish, and I'm confident enough to do that very thing in my own new car when it arrives.

    "break-in oil" isn't a very precise scientifically term, as you imply. It sounds more like marketing.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I "broken" in one engine with FACTORY fill Mobil One 5w30 ! This pushrod V-8 DESIGN is "as old as the hills" so to speak. So I know it can be done.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Both of my BMWs have been broken in on Synthetic Oil as has virtually every BMW sold here in the U.S.A. since 1999.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yeah I actually have not broken many engines in on synthetic, due to the fact that most of them have come with conventional factory fill. However now that I think of it, my VW Jetta TDI was factory filled with "synthetic", "German" Castro 5w40. So I guess I am incorrect in saying I only broken in one. The oem recommendation was a oci at 5,000. Upon this change, I promptly went to 10,000 miles on Mobil One Truck & Suv 5w40 aka Delvac One 5w40. The range of fuel mileage has been from 44-62 mpg.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My goal is to bring my new car's MGP up to the average mpg of my friend's Prius and to do it on a car costing about 50% less. Synthetic should help along with some new tires and of course my expert driving skills :blush:
  • flytedhyflytedhy Member Posts: 63
    If its a factory fill synthetic, the engine designers planned for that. If not, the cylinders need some scuff wear and is why the use of special oil and filter from the factory for some cars. Many companies that use factory fill synthetic have nitrided cylinders which are ok with synthetic. Most vehicles don't. Looking for evidence, talk to any engine rebuilder, any. Talk to a heavy duty mechanic at any dealership and ask. There's probably not one ounce of evidence either that useing pep boys $1.00 oil and a cheap Fram oil filter will hurt the vehicle , and it might not show if you sell the car after a couple years, but its still not good advice. I know some people who only have there oil changed once a year at some drive thru and have never had a problem. I don't consider because you can get away with a bad idea, proof that its a good idea.
  • highrollerhighroller Member Posts: 351
    "What you want to do with a new engine is vary your speeds so that the engine also works on its "pull" side (high vacuum, foot off the gas) as well as the push side (pistons driven by high combustion pressures)."

    Mr_Shiftright or someone, i hope you can help me out a little bit since this is my first brand new automobile and im a little bit baffled about new engines. If i wanted to break-in a new engine effectivly to an extent on the street, you would tell me to vary my speeds by pushing the gas pedal down abruptly for a quick second and letting go of it right away right?, but not to push so high as to the maximum recommended rpm for break-ins? So there should be a constant fluctuation(up and downs) of rpm and mph when driving on the road for about the first few thousand miles? I want to make sure if i should ride hard and slow down a little hard or not. So far, theres been a couple times that ive been driving hard and fast:up to 70mph :shades: on the street then slowing down quickly and braking a little hard to make sure the rpm needle be "jumping up and down for joy." Most of the time i would abruptly push the gas pedal to reach 50mph on the road and then slowing down to continue my normal speed 40-45mph. I hope im not straining my engine. Thanks for any help, boy reading back my comments i hope i dont turn this topic into a breakin topic :confuse: But just to be safe... How bout synthetics huh? arent they wonderful?? they sure can change somone's perception on cars/engines overnight! haha

    High :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Highroller,

    Perhaps I should have been a tad more clear about using the automatic transmission during break in. You can use the automatic transmission (gear selection) to "vary your engine speeds (and since you know and care your engine loadings on acceleration and de-acceleration), while for example, keeping your mph constant (or close to constant as possible). So this accomplish two goals 1. vary your engine speed 2. if your break in procedure has a sign post of say not going over 55 mph-65 mph. Since you dont want to do sustained high speed because all you really want to do is have those parts mesh together, such as brakes pads, rotors, tires, suspension shocks/struts, bearings, yada, yada.

    NOW on to the boring part :) .......

    Just got a 1996 Toyota Landcruiser back from a 60k major service interval (you know the BIG Kahuna) at the local Toyota dealer. The nexus here is the Mobil One 5w30 with either oem or cheapie Fram oil filters, 15,000 OCI's. (4/5 oil changes so far) Since this was time for the 60k valve check/adjust, the Landcruiser technician took off the valve cover and not only was the innards(in their words) "totally cherry" (aka totally clean and sludge less), but it required absolutely no valve adjustments!!!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, you can romp on the gas in the mid-range but dont' run it up at full throttle past say 4,000 rpm for a few hundred miles. Also vary speeds by letting your foot off the gas, say when you are coasting down a hill. You don't have to do this very long, just a week or so.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the engine builders you may have talked to are talking about older engines. All that used to be true but in fact, modern engines don't need scuffing or any such thing...they are pretty much ready to roll, because they are built with such amazing precision. You don't have the sloppy machining and wide tolerances of years ago.

    Besides, many mechanics are only passing on anecdotal (meaning not scientifically tested) opinions, and I don't think they have much weight.

    My opinion is that a little common sense for a few hundred miles is all you need--just enough to let parts expand and contract and get comfortable with each other.
  • flytedhyflytedhy Member Posts: 63
    Talk to a factory engineer. If its not factory fill synthetic, its going to be a problem somewhere down the road. Call the service manager and ask them to use the dealer service hotline to ask the people who designed the engine. As far as scientifically tested, good engineering practices are just that, don't need to test what has already been proven. If someone wants to believe Fram is the best oil filter (they obviously haven't taken one apart), thats their choice and you won't see a scientific test to counter that as a $3 part is not worth that effort to a company on a low margin item, especially if its a poorly built product. Its more profitable to spend money on marketing and keep the build quality inexpensive. Every couple years, I purchase all the available filters for my vehicle and take them apart and inspect for quality. Scientific? No. Do I have a much better idea how well a filter is made than someone who just looks at the package? You can decide on that one. I don't try to convince anyone to use my brand of oil or my filter choice, I've done extensive research on my own and being in the industry, I know what I see, and don't believe most of what I hear. The factory won't say much in the owners manual about break-in as its bad business and don't want the competition to use it against them. No new engine is "pretty much ready to roll". Fact, not opinion. Again, talk to any heavy duty mechanic at a new car dealer and ask. If people want to tell others about what they think is the best oil, just because they like it, thats fine. But to tell someone it doesn't make a difference during a new engine break-in period if they use synthetic when it was not factory fill is just incorrect, bad and potentially damaging advice. I don't think thats what this board is for.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I for one do not think that "FRAM is the best oil filter" If anything it is probably not as well made as most. My own personal feeling is it competes to be the first of the WORST. That is the reason I only used about 17 of em. in 250,000 miles (on a sold TLC) . :) At 2.50 per Fram PH8A my own feeling is I probably paid AT LEAST 1.50 too much!

    But again statistically there is no study that has scientifically compared xyz filters with the conclusion being (along the lines of)ALPHA filter can go 200,000 MORE miles than XYZ filters or with no significant wear, so parts last longer, etc etc ...... But an interesting aside is FRAM manufactures FOR Honda, the Honda OEM oil filter. Not the familar hypnotic ORANGE color but..... :) I need not say what Edmunds.com so ably said (words to the effect) it is the class leader in the economy segment.

    On the other hand, if the oem's were really serious about longer engine life, there are 4 (aftermarket) parts that should be on every engine 1. preoilers 2. bypass oil filters 3. larger sumps 4. OLM's

    In so far as the synthetic oils are concerned it has been common knowledge for some time that break in is probably best left to oem filled conventional oil. However there are precious few oems that will say (either in print or warranty fulfillment: DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC OIL!! The only one that I am remotely aware of that does is the Mazda specifically the rotary (Wankel) engine.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Cars can be broken in on Synth oil.

    Problem is, it will likely take 10K to 20K miles, depending on the engine and the oil.

    One guy I read about had a mazda (not rotary) and switched his oil at 1K miles to Synth and he did not get a noticable MPG bump until 22,000 miles, which is when he estimated the break-in finally completed.

    All the literature on the subject is pretty much in agreement, that synth will delay the completion of the break-in period.
  • flytedhyflytedhy Member Posts: 63
    Like I mentioned in my post, I know some who change oil once a year and do fine so there is no doubt you could have done well with Fram. Its still a cheap filter. Not sure what (TLC) was but a high tech engine does much better on well-filtered oil than a old tech pushrod. The Fram made for Honda is not the same one you buy at walmart,they are made to Honda specs, but I bet you already knew that. I agree with what you say about oem's having the option to do much better, and in addition the cost would be minimal considering the benefit. They could add all that you mentioned, call it the "long engine life" option charge $400-500, make monet off it and the customer would have an engine that would easily go 300-400k. Maybe not everyone would want it, but many would I bet.
  • flytedhyflytedhy Member Posts: 63
    You are correct, it will eventually break-in given enough time. That amount of time though was certainly not planned for in the engine design. I can think of no benefit of doing so, can you?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The bottom line: STILL WORKS WELL !! Hopefully my 250,000 miles would indicate. Would say a Mobil One filter at 10-12 dollars per work as well as the 2.50 FRAM? Better? Worse? I am sure! But how would I, as well as you define BETTER? As well? Worse? :(:)

    Perhaps most folks would WANT (to need) a better filter.

    The only filter that I do make sure I get oem is the VW TDI filter. Most of it is because of fit and not the "superior" filtering ability. In the TDI, you change the (paper) filter and not the outer cartridge. My sense is that JUST the (paper) filter probably cuts the manufacturing costs even over the ubiquitous "orange grenade" Moreover it does filter better by "clinical" measures. It is also specified for a 30,000 mile OCI.
  • quockieoquockieo Member Posts: 2
    I have only about 250 miles on my new acura tsx, came with factory conventional oil. Im planning to switch to synthetic around 3000 miles. I would like to know if replacing the factory oil with a new regular oil at 500 miles is a good thing to do; if it would help break in faster to keep the switch at 500 to conventional? I understand that i need to dump the factory oil early to take out the metal stuff in the oil. Im a little weary of switching to synthetic oil too soon that's why the 3000 first oil change interval switch is more sound to me.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I just got finished doing a 20k tune on the Honda Civic VP. Germane to this topic : this is the 20k "change the oem (FRAM MADE) oii filter, and of course the required 3.4 qts of oil (Mobil One 0W20) As much as I can gather short of a full blown oil analysis, this also was a complete waste of time, money, effort and materials. However this is still cheaper to do than an oil analysis! :(:) The oil still (dark) brown. Doing a visual inspection down the oil port on top of the valves it was totally clean. The oil filter looked almost brand new. There was not even a trace of "particles" . I even cut it open and sans the metal shavings generated during the cutting open of the filter it was the same sick yellow orange color when new. So I guess the only satisfaction was I was keeping within my warranty requirements.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Switching to syn oil may entail a cost, but only ou can decide if it is worth it...

    While they may pay for dino changes every 3K for 30K miles, 10 oil changes, if you switch to syn oil, you may go between 5K and 10K miles between changes, whatever you feel comforable with...I go 5K between changes, instead of 3K with dino oil...naturally, if you go 10K between changes, then you will only change 4X, now, plus 10K, 20K, 30K, but your engine will have lived on syn oil forever, except for the initial factory filling...

    So, you may pay more for syn oil, but you get what you want...if the dealer uses dino, and you want syn, you might ask for a refund on your "maintenance plan" and just move on...

    I was a dino oil fan, no, fanatic, for 40 years, but the threads on this forum changed my mind...I changed oil on my 04 Ford and 04 Ram at 1000 miles, dumped the dino, went with Castrol 5W-30 syn oil, and never looked back...

    The Ford is in service today, 30K miles, for oil change, flush power steering fluid, flush tranny/tork converter fluid, tranny filter, change rear end fluid, fuel filter, already has K&N 50K air filter...

    Will change brake fluid at 50K, and coolant at 75K, along with spark plugs at 75K...
  • highrollerhighroller Member Posts: 351
    I would like to say thanks ruking1 and mr_shiftright first for the heads up.

    Thanks for your concern Marsha7. Well the total cost for my maintenance plan for 2 yrs is about $609. Besides changing oil/filter and rotating/balancing tires, they also inspect other parts of my truck (suspension, brakes, hoses, fuel components, steering components, and all lights) to see if i need some fix or repairs which will cost me nothing due to my premium bumper to bumper warranty. I am going see my dealer in a little bit and once there i will ask to see if i can change my own oil/filter and see what my options are: if they can provide me free syn instead of regular every recommended interval, etc. Besides, im perfectly fine with keeping the plan because by 30k, they would have replace the major services like engine drive belts, air filter, incabin filter, coolant system flush, auto tranny flush, wiper blades, & rotate/balance. To me, that total service i just mentioned right there outweighs the $609 that i paid initially. Most certified repair shops would cost me an estimated $1 grand or more to do that service because of the labor+parts.
    So basically, IMO the inspection and the 30k major service maintenance is a keeper even if i end up telling them to not do the oil/filter change that was part of the maintenance plan. I'd be perfectly fine with changing my own filter/oil because i've learned my lesson to not let anyone else change my oil.
    I'd do this because i rather have synthetic rather than no syn at all.

    High :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well for sure you truly miss the points.

    1. for most engines there is not the FEARED debris floating around.

    2.However the(smaller sized) particles do indeed circulate than can possibly degrade LONG term, cause damage etc. However the media is not fine enough to filter these. indeed the filter can not filter. (too small). Hence my mention of the "bypass" oil filter.

    So what % of folks run bypass oil filters? Again the definition of minority group!!! Am I saying there is not a place for oil analysis? Absolutely not. However if you take a snap shot of how what % of folks actually do oil analysis, well this is the definition of a "minority position"

    3. Oil analysis is really for TREND identification

    4. Defacto this is what everybody does with oil changes of 3,4,5,7k etc.!!!???? Again not rocket science I bet even YOU do this. So for example no less than Honda America recommends every other oil change to do an oil filter change 20k for the normal interval. Again FRAM makes Honda's OEM oil filters.

    5. As for brand loyalty? Hardly! Champion Labs makes a far better filter and now at WalMart is even cheaper (2.07)

    6. The use of FRAM as an example is really to show that it doesn't matter as much as YOU (or even me) has been led to think.

    So if you can't handle that or are angry at the fact that it isn't as critical as you or I have been led to believe, I can understand your reaction/s. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm not sure how a person would even judge that his engine is "broken in" unless he tears it down and examines it.

    Fuel mileage calculations don't seem a very good indicator since there are so many variables affecting fuel mileage.

    The argument that "I broke my engines in carefully and never had a problem" doesn't work because you haven't compared the results to breaking in the same exact engine in some other way.

    Here's an engine builder (see link below) who thinks that a modern engine can be completely broken in very very quickly, perhaps 20 miles.

    I tend to very much agree with his analysis of modern engine construdtion, and his argument for a hard, fast break-in:

    http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

    This is how I'm going to break my engine in next week but of course everyone should do what he is comfortable with.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The best you can do for an engine is to get it to operating temp ASAP and run it a min of 1 hour at operating temp. Longer is better like say 12 hours. :) If one drives like the proverbial old man/lady, short trips of 1-6 mins many starts and shut offs, you can expect over the long term to have some ... issues.

    Yeah, I think that the "break in" gig is a misnomer. To me the "break in period" has come to mean specific things.

    1.like making sure the tire sheds the slippery mold lubricant slowly and the longer tire wear patterns develop. So the real reason to go 55 mph (and or less) is to cultivate LONGER term wear patterns.

    2. parts such as engine parts, suspension parts i.e., springs, stabilizer bars, bearings, shocks, struts, brake pads and rotors all establish good wear patterns together, usually with an eye to longevity.

    But the truth is you can flog it from the get go and just as long as one is not abusive, the warranty fulfillment should not be an issue.
  • highrollerhighroller Member Posts: 351
    What car/truck will you be getting next week Mr_Shiftright just wondering?

    :P that was the same link i was looking at whenever i was trying to learn how to break-in an engine. I too agree with most of his points. But he did say that not to use synthetic oil until the 1500 miles mark or two full days of hard racing. I think im going to switch out the factory oil at 500-1000 miles with another regular oil and then switch to synthetic around 3000 the first oil change interval like quockeio's idea. Ive been reading in that this particular person's view on cars that came with factory synthetic be dumped out within a few hundred miles and to be replaced with regular oil for a better breakin. I guess he wanted to state that regular oil produces more better friction and better sealing for breaking in an engine.

    On the contrary, many people believe that new modern engines can instantly use synthetic and Mobil 1 states that we can use synthetic after 500 miles.

    So, should i believe the oil chemists at Exxon/Mobil 1 or someone's experience and work on engines. I guess everyone just have to go with what they feel is right, right?

    High :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I broke my last car in on Synthetic Oil using the manufacturer's guidelines for break-in procedure (just barely). In this case my average speed was somewhere near 90 mph with my speed ranges covering the entire range between 0 and 100. Funny thing, a mechanic from my local dealership was stunned at just how fast my car was, claiming that it was in the territory of my same car but with the larger 4.4 liter V8 engine as opposed to my puny little 3.0 liter six. Could the difference have been how I broke the engine in? I've heard some engineers suggest that that might would well have been the case.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well I guess in the process, there are some folks who THINK they are doing the correct things but wind up subjecting their engines to situations FAR worse that the literal and figurative old man/lady scenarios.

    So as it related to synthetic oil, I am sure there are folks who are absolutely horrified to hear my synthetic oil and filter experiences. . But rest assured that in no way shape or form would I risk 250,000 dollars in automobiles to save whatever you might think I am saving, if indeed I had even the slightest doubt.
  • flytedhyflytedhy Member Posts: 63
    I guess if we both are really bored this weekend we could continue this, but in short, don't know where you got this FEARED debris stuff. A filters main purpose is to limit the amount of abrasion in the engine by filtering out micron level particles, not chunks. Progressive maintanence. Its the cumulative effects of not having well-filtered oil that harm. You could not use an oil filter at all and get away with it for years, bad idea, but it would work. Its rare for me to use oil analysis on a auto, but it does tell you when the oil breaks down and other important stuff if you have expensive engines. Its used a majority of the time in aviation engines. You do realize the Honda Fram filter is not the same one at walmart, correct? Fram makes it to Honda spec's, thats the way the industry works. You seem to be confused on that point. Fram can make quality filters, and do for other industries, including the aviation market, your walmart filter is not, so seperate the two. I don't have brand loyalty, I let quality speak for itself, I don't tell anyone what brand of filter or oil to use, but there are clear differences to anyone who chooses to look and established good operating principles of engine care. That has nothing to do with brands. Don't know where you get the angry thing, I work on facts. Maybe if you had some training in the care and feeding of engines/turbines where there is research done because the cost can be enormous for failure of a part, you would see things differently. If you didn't, you wouldn't be around long. Don't change your filter or oil, that's your choice. Use whatever brands you want, also your choice. Just don't give bad advice based on your personal choice to do so to someone who doesn't know what risks that involves.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    5 years in bomber and fighter maintenance. Some of the planes I had will be flying at 100 years. Fighter Pilot training base, 60-100 sorties per day 5/7 days per week. I had INXS of 200 engines. Yada Yada.

    But really, so what?

    That didn't help my 250,000 miles with 15,000 mile OCI's, now did it? Ran like a top. Sold it for 44% loss in 14 years or 3.14% loss per year. Total miles with 15,000 mile intervals, either oem or Champion Labs or FRAM type filters app 750,000 miles. You can believe what you want. If you don't want to hear it, don't bother to answer. I am doing it.

    "I work on facts. Maybe if you had some training in the care and feeding of engines/turbines where there is research done because the cost can be enormous for failure of a part, you would see things differently. If you didn't, you wouldn't be around long. Don't change your filter or oil, that's your choice. Use whatever brands you want, also your choice. Just don't give bad advice based on your personal choice to do so to someone who doesn't know what risks that involves."

    What I told you is factual, if you don't want to believe it, that has to be fine with me. I didn't tell anyone to USE FRAM. I SAID that I used FRAM. You are distorting what I have said. I do change the oil and filter DAH!!! So you do have a gift for distortion.
  • flytedhyflytedhy Member Posts: 63
    Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. A topic which may be of more interest to us both is why pre-oilers don't come on cars and why they have never really caught on in the aftermarket. If they ever did, most of what we talked about would be mute as most wear issues would be gone.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Not sure what you disagree with or about. The fact that I am doing it? The fact that you don't think it works? Or you would not do it yourself?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."I broke my last car in on Synthetic Oil using the manufacturer's guidelines for break-in procedure (just barely). In this case my average speed was somewhere near 90 mph with my speed ranges covering the entire range between 0 and 100. Funny thing, a mechanic from my local dealership was stunned at just how fast my car was, claiming that it was in the territory of my same car but with the larger 4.4 liter V8 engine as opposed to my puny little 3.0 liter six. Could the difference have been how I broke the engine in? I've heard some engineers suggest that that might would well have been the case. :...

    "...

    It very well could have been the case. So without going through expensive dyno testing, etc, count your lucky stars and enjoy!

    I also just completed a "total" break in of my TDI. As some folks are probably aware, diesels do not develop their full compression until much later than a gasser. The VW TDI's case is full compression in and around the 50-60k mile markers. As a comparison to gasser, of immediate to 3k miles. So as an offshot full performance doesnt get better (in the the case of mph) until later. So the upshot is the "break in" procedure is sort of like breaking in a new baseball glove. Sure, right off the assembly line the glove is fuly functional, but....

    So I can identify with what you are saying.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd believe chemists at Mobil sure, if you read a scientific paper and not an advertiser's copy.
  • 390feking390feking Member Posts: 4
    Amen brother I would have too agree on your statement I run amszoil in my new motor 390 ford rebuilt no leaks and it does less friction in this High Perf setup also bought a 96 ford truck 5.8l with 97k on it went to 10w30 amzoil 4k later still hasen't used a drop nor leaked either syn oil is the cats meow, tho i would not use it if your pissing it out all over the road it very expensive at that rate. If the leaks are more after syn switch then as said its a leak pre existed, syn oil moves around and conv, oil hangs around :P
  • larneslarnes Member Posts: 59
    Sorry, but I can't help feeling that some of you on this forum are really taking this break-in/oil change thing a little too seriously. Today's cars are built with the idea that American car buyers are idiots. I don't think there is a lot that you can do to hurt one. Outside of neglect, of course.

    As in all other things in life: moderation is the key. Just drive the damn thing and quit worrying about it. :mad:

    Larry
  • highrollerhighroller Member Posts: 351
    Have you guys seen the new bottles for the mobil 1? In some of the other forums that i visited, there's been a great discussion on the new mobil 1 formulation. Many people believe that it was a downgrade of additive packaging due to recent hurricanes. The label is different due to post-hurricane Katrina in other words. There was also a posted statement from a supposedly Mobil 1 spokesperson regarding the new Mobil 1 motor oils. To paraphrase, the spokesperson stated that their new bottles were a result from recent hurricanes to their additive plants. He/she also stated that the SL/GF-3 bottles will still meet or exceed the applications of a SM/GF-4 oils. Finally, he/she stated that it is just temporary until the additive plants get back on track. Today at costco (in TX), i saw that on the front label of mobil 1 that it states: "New Vehicle Formula." The API starburst and the donut is still there but i recognized that it is now API SL and GF-3 where before it meet or exceeded SM or GF-4.
    There were other Mobil 1 bottles 5w30 and 10w30 but didnt have the "New vehicle formula" and had the API SM and GF-4 indication. Although i believe that this is fairly insignificant, i thought i would just like to share. Plus, the label on the Castrol Syntec has not changed at all.

    For those die hard mobil 1 users who likes nothing but the "best" i would stock up on the small amount of SM/GF-4 mobil 1 that is left.

    High :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would tend to agree.

    However being brought up in "the old school" (late 40's early 50's cars on up) I have actually witness the "chunks" of debris floating around in the crankcase and sludge making ability of conventional oil. I saw the need and even used to do 1.5k-3k oil changes. So while I understand the need, history and the eventual histrionics of the behaviors leading to the habit of 1.5k-3k OCI's, It is total over kill for most of today's modern engines.

    So on 2 recent break in's I used a fairly aggressive break in in terms of rpm bandwidth of 75% - redline. The first oem recommended 5,000 mile oil changes for the first two oil changes and I complied. The third OCI on up is recommended for 10,000 mile OCI's. The second oem recommended 10,000 mile OCI's again I complied. It also recommends the 2nd OCI to change the (FRAM) filter!! Again a no brainer. Both vehicles run like the proverbial TOP. So baring catastrophic behavior (not due to oil use) both will be just fine.
  • highrollerhighroller Member Posts: 351
    Also, i forgot to mention that some mobil 1 synthetic oils did not have the starburst and the ILSAC donut symbols. On the back it would say "this meets ILSAC GF-4 or SM"...

    High :)
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    How can you tell if an engine was broken in properly?

    If the engine does not use any appreciable amounts of oil does that mean the the rings are properly seated, and everything is fine?

    Conversly wouldn't the primary indicator of improper break-in be excess oil consumption?

    I would like to know for sure that the engine is ready before I put in synthetic.

    My last car had its first oil change at 1,000 miles, and then synthetic put in at 3,000. Seemed to do fine - valvetrain still looks new at 197,000 miles.

    -Dudley
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I think if your car came oem filled with conventional oil a very safe bet (seems like you even did it for the car with 197,000) is to run the first oem recommended oil change interval. Then switch over to synthetic oil. :)
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    with Motoman's methods or reasoning for break-in...but I do question the ability of most folks to do it...

    If you buy any kind of a demo, it could have anywhere from 200 to 5000 miles, so changing the oil at 20 miles is no-go

    Even some new cars, never driven by consumers, can have 10-20 miles on them when purchased...heck, if you choose a new one and drive it yourself just to make sure it runs, you may come back with 30 miles on the odo...

    Or, if the vehicle is driven from another dealer to your dealer, it may have 50 miles when you buy it...

    Our new Ram 1500 had 206 on the odo when it was brought to us in GA from a Memphis dealer...oh, well...I did my usual procedure of changing oil and filter at 1000 miles, and converted to syn oil then...5W-30 Castrol Syn...
  • highrollerhighroller Member Posts: 351
    The truck i bought had 5 miles when i was about to leave the dealership. Unless the factory oil had some special "break-in" oil, changing out at 20 miles may seem to be fine in my opinion. Im bias in believing that there's no such thing as "Breakin" oil. If we dump factory oil at 20miles or so, it's just like adding our own "break-in" oil. Furthermore, I do like to say that we cannot be 100% sure how long the oil in the engine has been in there since we left the dealership. Let's say we just bought a new 05 this month, well that truck could of been sitting out in the parking lot at the dealership for about 10 months now.
    I also believe that if cars were factory filled with synthetic, lucky for those "rich" people hehe. But for those other "factory filled dino juice people", switching to synthetic too soon can mean longer break-in period.
    I kinda agree with all of you.

    High :)
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    Howdy folks,

    I'm picking up my new Mazda3 tomorrow and I'm wondering what my time frame should be for switching to synthetic motor oil? Back in 1993, I bought a new Honda Civic and used synthetic from the first oil change at 5k miles. I was 18 when I bought the car, drove the heck out of it and sold it four years later with 178k miles on it (from commuting to college and delivering pizza). Needless to say, those were hard miles but I had not a single mechanical failure in all those miles. According to my mechanic, engine compression was almost as good as it was when new.

    So, should I go synthetic with the Mazda? I've read in several places that I should wait for at least 5k to switch over. What's the overall consensus here?
  • highrollerhighroller Member Posts: 351
    If you want to go with my take, i will be switching over at 3000 miles. Alot of people in this forum may say you can switch it over after several hundred miles or even after 10,000 miles. I do believe that today's engines are built more precise and better engineered than lets say 5 years ago. Most of the critical break-in (proper sealing etc) is done about 1500-3000 miles anyways depending on your driving conditions. Other engines may take up to 20,000 to properly seal. 3-5k miles is a sure safe bet in my opinion. Just go with your gut feeling.

    I assume that you drive your cars pretty hard? If that is so, than switching it earlier than 1500-3000 miles may not be so bad of an idea.

    High :)
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