I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

fintail · July 2017

C-class 2001+, they were not the smoothest product in 4 cyl guise. I think the W204 was a quantum leap, and the 4cyl variant of that seems to not be hated.

I suspect the only really sought after 2003 SL would be an AMG.

texases · July 2017

Funny how the W201 is admired by some auto sites these days. Never read much positive about them back in the day.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

Well maybe the 16 valve is. I can't imagine anyone admiring the 2.3. It's cramped, slow and bland.

fintail · July 2017

I think people today appreciate the crisp simple design, especially compared to overstyled modern cars.

Nearly 2 million W201 were sold in a full decade of production (most of them small engine models), so it couldn't have been all bad, that's a heck of a run.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

Well it was cheap and it said "Benz" on it---that's why it sold. I'm not saying it wasn't a good marketing move.

fintail · July 2017

It wasn't particularly cheap - they were nearly 30K base over 30 years ago. A production run of nearly 2 million units over a decade tells me there must be a redeeming quality aside from price.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

Perhaps it's the fact that the car did very well in Europe but flopped in the USA.

It was "cheap" by Mercedes standards is what I meant. It was also unreliable, which is probably why it didn't enjoy a good reputation on this side of the pond.

It drove fine. It felt more like a Benz than a Honda, that's true.

fintail · July 2017

I think the US was a key market for them. They were all over the place back in the day, the E30s more conservative compatriot. I have no numbers on me, but I have no doubt US sales were well into 6 figures, and based on MB sales overall, I suspect generated repeat buyers.

I've only ever been in one on the road - a final run Sportline with a 5-speed and a 24 valve 300CE engine (I believe). It was a little special.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

If we're talking solely about the W 201 190E 2.3, which was built specifically for the U.S. market, then it's not even close to 6 figures. 65,000 units sold in the U.S., according to Nitske. Basically, kind of a flop here. You're right--the "dream" was to make the U.S. a key market. I remember this car when it came out. Americans didn't like it at all.

fintail · July 2017

This source, claiming to be official from MB, claims 186K units but it was also sold in other markets after 1986. Even so, 65K units of a $30K 4 cyl small car in 1985 dollars is remarkable. Can 65K people be wrong at that price point? It'd be interesting to see what percentage it held for overall sales - probably 35% or or more back in those pre-SUV days.

I think the US was an important market for MB before 1984 (1st W201 model year) - heck, the W126 300SD was designed and built just for this market.

fintail · July 2017

No W201s on the road today, but of late have seen an old Mini and an X-Type wagon, both apparently running fine.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

fintail said:
This source, claiming to be official from MB, claims 186K units but it was also sold in other markets after 1986. Even so, 65K units of a $30K 4 cyl small car in 1985 dollars is remarkable. Can 65K people be wrong at that price point? It'd be interesting to see what percentage it held for overall sales - probably 35% or or more back in those pre-SUV days.

I think the US was an important market for MB before 1984 (1st W201 model year) - heck, the W126 300SD was designed and built just for this market.

Sure they can be wrong. People in the U.S. bought 141,000 Yugos after all.

Fortunately NATO bombed their factory, a deed for which I remain forever in their debt.

I think the 190E got better as time went on. They had problems with climate control, power windows, radios, cracking dashboards, cracking driveshaft disks and worn control arm bushings. Typical German stuff for that era.

But if you could find a clean 190 2.3 nowadays, they are certainly affordable and with good maintenance, you're probably ok. It's the cheapest Mercedes of any kind you can buy. The engines will last forever--that'll be the last thing to go.

omarman · July 2017

Isn't that bomb crater now the site of Fiat Chrysler Automobiles Serbia assembly plant in Kragujevac?
And the beat goes on.

fintail · July 2017

So really, apples to apples, they aren't really so bad? Not perfect, but that era was far from the zenith of the auto industry.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Sure they can be wrong. People in the U.S. bought 141,000 Yugos after all. Fortunately NATO bombed their factory, a deed for which I remain forever in their debt.

I think the 190E got better as time went on. They had problems with climate control, power windows, radios, cracking dashboards, cracking driveshaft disks and worn control arm bushings. Typical German stuff for that era.

But if you could find a clean 190 2.3 nowadays, they are certainly affordable and with good maintenance, you're probably ok. It's the cheapest Mercedes of any kind you can buy. The engines will last forever--that'll be the last thing to go.

kyfdx · July 2017

Yeah.. I don't see the 190 as any worse than most cars of the time. Unless you drove a GNX, everything was slow.

texases · July 2017

I guess my problem is that some folks now consider it a 'hidden gem' kind of car.

kyfdx · July 2017

Yeah... wouldn't say that.

On the other hand, I'm not all that wild about the 2.3-16 model, either. It's interesting from an historical perspective, I guess... but, nothing special.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

I dunno...maybe it's just me, but I look upon the 190E as an equally cynical product as the first BMW 320i--you got a very mediocre car for a not-so-mediocre price. It was almost like saying "Those stupid Americans...they'll buy ANYTHING with a (BMW/ MERCEDES) badge on it."

It was Germany's Cimmaron if you ask me.

fintail · July 2017

What about a BMW 318i? Or a 316i (or 190E 1.8 or early carb model) , would that be for stupid Europeans who will buy anything with a certain badge on it?

If these cars were rebadged FWD Chevies, yes, then they'd be a Cimmaron

And it also led to this, which today is worth real money:

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

As I page through my various price guides, methinks there's a reason a 1991 190E is valued at $1725. Seems like the Americans foolish enough to buy one new have wised up over time.

fintail · July 2017

Sounds like an average price for a 1991 most anything.

Price out an EVO II.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

That's a stretch---like saying a '65 Mustang 6 cylinder automatic is the forerunner of the Shelby GT350--which in an odd way is true, but that doesn't make the '65 Mustang any better a car.

With enough money and talent, you take your grandpa's sedan to NASCAR.

omarman · July 2017

kyfdx said:
Yeah.. I don't see the 190 as any worse than most cars of the time. Unless you drove a GNX, everything was slow.

I look at most of the 80s cars like that too. But there were some bright spots which really did change the landscape and Mercedes wasn't leading the way.

Japan was. When I think of the good times with cars of the 80s I'm thinking Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti Toyota/Lexus...like that

Remember when the CRX came out? And the first gen Integra was a $10k target which neither Detroit nor der Fatherland could hit.

My favorite long distance rental/vacation cars were Nissan Maximas back then. I once accepted an Enterprise option to drive a Pontiac Bonneville SSE (or whatever it was called) for a weekend trip and regretted it less than 30 miles from the rental office.

I have zero experience driving or owning a new Mercedes during that same time. But I understand that there were much worse things around back then than a 190e 2.3 or a 318i. My late wife bought a new Buck J car in '84 and the absolute worst local rental service car I ever got stuck with was a new Omni (87ish).

Still I don't really understand the revision history of 80s cars, German or otherwise. You could not have been a living sober licensed driver at that time without noticing that Japan inc was gobbling the market share with cars aimed at everything from entry level to luxury cars. Isn't that the real auto history of the 80s? Or did I really misunderstand impact of a baby Benz 190 compared to the import competition from Japan?

magnette · July 2017

Many of the cheapest M-Benz 4cylinder cars in Europe were taxis - everywhere...Some did incredible mileages and they were pretty much indestructible.
M-B even offer a sort of buttermilk cream colour in their saloon ranges which just happens to be the colour taxis are in Berlin, Munich etc..

magnette · July 2017

Passed a Buick Super (I think) about 1947 - 48 on a motorway just outside London last week - just rolling along at 65 or so. Looked fairly original and not rodded or anything, just a straight black 4-door sedan. I was in the Fiesta so passed him at some speed and didn't get a good look, but certainly different for working day traffic.

fintail · July 2017

But although not an advanced car, an early Mustang also wasn't a bad car. It offered heaps of style, and wasn't more technologically deficient that most cars of the time, which seemed to be old tech in 1960s bodies.

Similar can be said for the 190 that seems to be lamented in only one area. It wasn't a groundbreaking car, wasn't an extravagant posh car, but it definitely filled some market demand, as offered by the nearly 2 million of them sold. Not cheap, not sporty, but it sold, and judging by the brand performance since, must have generated some repeat buyers. When sales numbers reach those levels, there must have been many positive aspects of the car.

Mr_Shiftright said:
That's a stretch---like saying a '65 Mustang 6 cylinder automatic is the forerunner of the Shelby GT350--which in an odd way is true, but that doesn't make the '65 Mustang any better a car.

With enough money and talent, you take your grandpa's sedan to NASCAR.

fintail · July 2017

I don't think MB in 1982, when W201 entered production, had any thought or care of Japanese makers. They were in their own world. The end of the decade is when the Japanese became competition, at least in this market. I don't think anyone cross shopped a 30K 4 cyl 190E with a 1985 Maxima or Cressida (at half the price), as nice as those cars could be.

There were definitely worse things around - heck, my dad had a Horizon and liked it, as it wasn't a terrible car at the time. I think used cars in the mid 80s, dating from peak malaise, could be pretty depressing.

omarman said:

I have zero experience driving or owning a new Mercedes during that same time. But I understand that there were much worse things around back then than a 190e 2.3 or a 318i. My late wife bought a new Buck J car in '84 and the absolute worst local rental service car I ever got stuck with was a new Omni (87ish).
Still I don't really understand the revision history of 80s cars, German or otherwise. You could not have been a living sober licensed driver at that time without noticing that Japan inc was gobbling the market share with cars aimed at everything from entry level to luxury cars. Isn't that the real auto history of the 80s? Or did I really misunderstand impact of a baby Benz 190 compared to the import competition from Japan?

fintail · July 2017

I think the color name is "hellelfenbein" - light ivory. They still make it, and as you know, you can still find old timer taxi drivers who hold on to old cars. W124 taxis are not insanely rare even today, and I remember seeing a W123 taxi still in service in Berlin several years ago.

magnette said:
Many of the cheapest M-Benz 4cylinder cars in Europe were taxis - everywhere...Some did incredible mileages and they were pretty much indestructible.
M-B even offer a sort of buttermilk cream colour in their saloon ranges which just happens to be the colour taxis are in Berlin, Munich etc..

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

fintail said:
I don't think MB in 1982, when W201 entered production, had any thought or care of Japanese makers. They were in their own world. The end of the decade is when the Japanese became competition, at least in this market. I don't think anyone cross shopped a 30K 4 cyl 190E with a 1985 Maxima or Cressida (at half the price), as nice as those cars could be.

There were definitely worse things around - heck, my dad had a Horizon and liked it, as it wasn't a terrible car at the time. I think used cars in the mid 80s, dating from peak malaise, could be pretty depressing.

omarman said:

I have zero experience driving or owning a new Mercedes during that same time. But I understand that there were much worse things around back then than a 190e 2.3 or a 318i. My late wife bought a new Buck J car in '84 and the absolute worst local rental service car I ever got stuck with was a new Omni (87ish).
Still I don't really understand the revision history of 80s cars, German or otherwise. You could not have been a living sober licensed driver at that time without noticing that Japan inc was gobbling the market share with cars aimed at everything from entry level to luxury cars. Isn't that the real auto history of the 80s? Or did I really misunderstand impact of a baby Benz 190 compared to the import competition from Japan?

It's not a case of comparing a 190E to other cars--it's a case of comparing it to other Mercedes. And it doesn't compare very well.

kyfdx · July 2017

I think you could say that about the cheapest car in any car line, though.

tifighter · July 2017

Imagine cross shopping a 190E, 318i and maybe an Audi 4000 in the US. Other options would have been a Volvo 240, Saab 900 and maybe a Peugeot 505? What would you pick?

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

Good question. Well let's presume I didn't know the actual outcome of those cars (no hindsight).

Probably the Audi 4000 or the Saab 900 Turbo. Even in 1991 I would have had the common sense not to buy a French car. The 190E would have struck me as an old man's car. BWM might have been worth a look as a 318is coupe.

kyfdx · July 2017

Saab 900 turbo, or the 4000. I like the Pug, but wouldn't have bought one

tifighter · July 2017

I was thinking early 80's when the 190E came out, so no 318is yet. Peugeot option was the 505 as the 405 came later. The 240 Turbo would have been a pretty good option, I think.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

Well in that case, no BMW 320 for me. I would have already read the reviews, which were rather scathing.

kyfdx · July 2017

To be clear, I actually did buy a new car in 1982.

Honda Accord hatchback.. stick-shift, no A/C.

tifighter · July 2017

kyfdx said:
To be clear, I actually did buy a new car in 1982.

Honda Accord hatchback.. stick-shift, no A/C.

HA! I should add that I don't really have a dog in this hunt. In 82, I was 6 going on 7 years old. I didn't really get into the broader world of cars until I was about 9, when my dad bought a used 924. Compared to that, a 190E would have been the greatest car ever built.

omarman · July 2017

fintail said:
I don't think MB in 1982, when W201 entered production, had any thought or care of Japanese makers. They were in their own world. The end of the decade is when the Japanese became competition, at least in this market. I don't think anyone cross shopped a 30K 4 cyl 190E with a 1985 Maxima or Cressida (at half the price), as nice as those cars could be.

There were definitely worse things around - heck, my dad had a Horizon and liked it, as it wasn't a terrible car at the time. I think used cars in the mid 80s, dating from peak malaise, could be pretty depressing.

omarman said:

I have zero experience driving or owning a new Mercedes during that same time. But I understand that there were much worse things around back then than a 190e 2.3 or a 318i. My late wife bought a new Buck J car in '84 and the absolute worst local rental service car I ever got stuck with was a new Omni (87ish).
Still I don't really understand the revision history of 80s cars, German or otherwise. You could not have been a living sober licensed driver at that time without noticing that Japan inc was gobbling the market share with cars aimed at everything from entry level to luxury cars. Isn't that the real auto history of the 80s? Or did I really misunderstand impact of a baby Benz 190 compared to the import competition from Japan?

Re: cross-shopping $30,000 compact 4 cyl cars in 1982.
You like short lists?

The 1987 Yugo GV slogan could have been Das Beste oder Nichts!*
(*of any import selling under $4,000 in 1987. YMMV.)

Let's have one more time warp cross-shop poll.
Now in 2017 Toyota and Mercedes have offered to sell exact copies of their 1985 cars mentioned in your post for - get this - 1985 prices. Question...

Who will be lining up to buy a new "1985" 190e 2.3 for $30,000?
Who would rather buy a new "1985" Cressida AND enough left over to also get a new BTTF Hilux 4X4 truck?

tjc78 · July 2017

As long as the Hilux was "All waxed up and ready to go" by Biff for Marty's trip to the lake!!

fintail · July 2017

I don't know if the MB was really even cross-shopped with the Audi or BMW etc - it cost significantly more, probably at least a third more than the BMW, and double some of the others. MB was a lot more exclusive then. Gasoline S-class and SLs could approach 50K by the early 80s.

In 1982, I was 5, my dad's Horizon was around then and my mom still had the big 70s T-Bird. A 190E or any of the others would have seemed like a spaceship. Heck, when my mom got an 85 Tempo, it did seem futuristic compared to older cars I had experienced.

30K to spend in 1985, I don't even want to think what some vintage Porsches and Ferraris etc were worth then. The Cressida and McFly truck would definitely be the value leader.

tjc78 · July 2017

In 82, my parents were driving a mid 70s Gran Prix (avacodo green over white) and a Dart that i can't remember the year of.

These were both replaced shortly after with an 85 Horizon and an 84 Escort. The Escort didn't even have a radio so the Horizon with AC and a cassette deck was the preferred car.

texases · July 2017

I'd wait a year and get my'83 GTI.

roadburner · July 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
Well in that case, no BMW 320 for me. I would have already read the reviews, which were rather scathing.

Like this one?

Or maybe Road & Track in February 1980:
"Summing up the 320i is child's play: superb ride and handling characteristics, crisp gearbox, well thought-out controls, comfortable seats, and an engine that's relatively responsive while meeting emission levels and fuel economy standards for the new decade."

Perhaps Road Test in January 1977: "...the 320i is a genuinely excellent car."

And the opinion across the pond?
Well, there's Motor in June 1977: " great fun to drive... Definitely an enthusiasts' car."

Autosport really lambasted the E21 in January 1976: "As a practical touring car of good looks and high quality, it's about the best yet from the celebrated Bavarian constructor."

You can certainly make the argument that several of the road tests of the E21 were not as glowing as those of the 2002 or E30- but "scathing" is hardly an accurate characterization of how it was received by the automotive press.

tifighter · July 2017

83 would have been the first year for the E30 318i in the US. Right car, wrong engine.

kyfdx · July 2017

tifighter said:
83 would have been the first year for the E30 318i in the US. Right car, wrong engine.

I don't remember an E30 until the '84 model year (which would have been in '83). I think the only '83 model was an E21.

roadburner · July 2017

The four cylinder E30s to have are the M3 and the 318is(and the 320iS- if you can find one).

fintail · July 2017

E30 may have been an early launch, but I think they are MY 1984+, yes. Same for W201.

Michaell · July 2017

1982?

I was a senior in high school. Was driving a '65 Bug with a Baja kit.

I don't remember exactly how it came to pass, but just before graduating, my dad found and I bought a '79 Pontiac Sunbird. Beige over beige vinyl, Iron Duke engine, 4-speed manual. Less than 12,000 miles on it. I paid, I think, $3850 for it.

I believe a classmate got a new 320i, and another a new RX-7.

Michaell · July 2017

Not classic, nor obscure, but what a find!

https://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/someone-just-snagged-the-jeep-cherokee-barn-find-of-the-1796801689

PF_Flyer · July 2017

Always interesting to see the cars during the Tour de France telecast. This one kind of reminds me of a "spy shot" where they're trying to disguise the vehicle

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

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