Synthetic motor oil

inky · February 2001

Anyone use the Royal purple motor oil. They have some great claims. About $5 per quart for mulitvis.
It sounds great and they want you to think superior to Mobil one. They recommend 10-12k change interval if not under warranty along with 3-5k mile oil filter changes.
INKY

lspangler · February 2001

I know there has been a lot of discussion on drain intervals for synthetic. I was reading the January issue of Automotive Engineeering and on page 72 there is an article about the new Corvette LS6 engine. The recommended drain interval with Mobil 1 on this engine is now from 10,000 - 15,000 miles depending on how the vehicle is used. We all know the manufacturers build in a safety cushion in those specs. Amsoil's claim of 25,000 miles between changes is getting more and more believable.

yurakm · February 2001

Amsoil increased recently the recommended interval to 35,000 miles for the best of its oils, the Series 2000 Synthetic 0W-30, if you put more than 35k miles per year. Otherwise every 12 months.

http://www.amsoil.com/products/tso.html

Amsoil oil filter must be changed every 12,500 miles or 6 months with this oil.

wayn1 · February 2001

I've been saying the same thing about extended oil changes with Amsoil,(yes I'm an independent dealer)in this thread and I have been slammed big time, so now I only read what's here. But now I must say this. Amsoil states not claims that their oil lasts for 25,000 or 35,000 miles with their oil and air filters combined. Yea Amsoil costs more than Mobil 1, Royal Purple, but remember one thing. Today you get what you pay for. Why would you spend $20,000.00 plus on a high tech car in this day and age and use low tech dino oil that can just barely do the job with todays engines. I use it in both my Lexuses or Lexi.
Amsoil started in business in 1968. They really know what their doing.
I've been using Amsoil for 7 years and knowing what I know now, I will never go back to dino oil.
Sorry for the long post but just wanted to tell everyone about my experience. Been working on cars for over 30 years.
Thanks

ruking1 · February 2001

Regardless of whether you are a dealer or not the synthetic oil beats the conventional oil by a long shot (3-5 times) Do you ever wonder why when the dealer has to make good on warranty work ie change oil, they have intervals of 10-15k between oil changes? (MB 320, Corvette, Porsche, to name a few that I am familar with.) And why you can't get an oil analysis done at the dealer? That is a bit like going to a hospital and being told we can change your blood but we dont have the ability to analysize it!!??? Yet this lack of oil analysis has been STANDARD practice FOR years and NOBODY questions it. Don't get me wrong, conventional oil is better than it has EVER been, and can and will do the job!

armtdm · February 2001

Yea, I am a loyal user of Amsoil oil and filters. There are none finer. However, one must read the fine print on their 25,000 and 35,000 mileage claims for their oil and change intervals. One must change the filter at 12,500 miles or 6 months using an Amsoil filter. Other filters are normal intervals. The 6 month part is what most people do not read. Few people put on 12,500 in 6 months. I do change it at 6 months and the oil at one year but I only put on 8,000 12,000 on per year on several cars. So, the claim is somewhat misleading. I have gone 15,000 and the oil has come back okay but certain wear metals and dirt become a problem around 12,000-15,000. So even though they say 25,000 I doubt that any oil analysis would come back "reusable" after 15,000 due to silicon exceeding the parts per million by the test company. Oil analysis is really a trend watch, one sample is not definitive.
Also, RedLine makes a better manual tranny gear oil with their MT90 then Amsoil. Hands down winner on that one. More weights in the gear oils as well. RedLine appears geared more to racing whereas Amsoil is more average Joe driver oriented. Price is really the same as Mobil 1, problem is the lack of dealers and most do not stock inventory so shipping cost is an issue. Plus, the owner is somewhat arrongant (AJ Amatuso) in his statements and product claims. Who cares if he was a jet pilot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

adc100 · February 2001

Amsoil's monthly rag could have done more than just proclaim "how great thou art" if "thou art selling lots of stuff" AJ always reminded me a little of a shyster. Don't get me wrong he put together a great company of highly competent engineers, researchers, etc. Got to give the shyster credit. They make a hell of a product.

turbotc · February 2001

The dran interval on my 2000 MB E320 is between 10-12k. Depending on when the computer tells you that your car needs to go in for service. Anyways I change my oil and filters every 5000 miles on both my E320 and 99 Lexus. I use Mobil 1 and Pure One filters. this should be plenty sufficient for me. I can never go 10-12k intervals, not mentioning 25k and 35k. Oil would be all black and worries me. After spending this much money on cars, I feel much better changing at 5k intervals. it might be an overkill but it gives me peace of mine.

For the Amsoil users, after how many miles does your oil normally darken to black? Is the oil still good even though it is black?

oilcan2 · February 2001

Am also amsoil dealer,have been using about 20
years,agree with above posts about the 12k range
getting the silicon levels.I have a es300 and I
devised a way to mount the bypass filter.
A tip to any potential or current Amsoil users,
if you can qualify for a commercial account(use
oil in your business)try and get one,the oil will
be approx. 25% cheaper than the dealer.

adc100 · February 2001

Just become a dealer. Thats what I did. It was $25/year. I'm thinking of doing it again. I like some of their products.

Al

oilcan2 · February 2001

check out the commercial price list and you will
see what I mean about the cheaper price.
I have never tried the red line gear oils but
I had a brochure and they did seem to have a
better array of trans oils depending on what
metals your trans had in it.

armtdm · February 2001

Actually, on the cars that I have switched to Amsoik at 1,000 miles the oil is still clear and transparent (even when cold) at 7,500 miles. Around 10,000 to 12,000 it starts to get real brown but I really never see pitch black oil even with engines I have switched over at 40,000. The real brown is when cold, when hot it becomes transparent but obviously not the same as new oil. Black does not mean worn out or real dirty but without oil analysis I guess it is a good indicator of when to change.
I am a dealer ( I don't resell though, just a personal use user) and for $20/year I get the wholesale price. ( I have 5 cars to maintain so it is worth it for me) They have a new program for I think $15/year you also get the wholesale price. I am lucky though, my direct jobber keeps a huge inventory so I do not need to have shipping which adds to the cost tremendously. I never have understood why Amsoil does not have outlet stores but I guess that would destroy the independent dealer network.

blackstone3 · February 2001

Does anyone know if you can use Mobil 1 synthetic oil in a diesel Jetta? Thanks.

agt_cooper · February 2001

can you tell me what is the oil capacity of your vehicle? I'd also be curious about the Corvette. My theory is that one of the biggest contributors to longer change intervals is a larger amount of oil in the lubricating system.

For example, if I have a 6 cylinder engine with a 4 quart oil capacity vs. that same engine with a 6 quart oil capacity, I'd expect the latter car to be able to go at least 50% longer between changes. My reasoning is that you haven't changed the amount of work the oil is doing, but you have provided 50% more raw material to lubricate, clean, and suspend impurities. A longer drain interval would be a direct benefit of the larger oil capacity.

An extreme example is the over-the-road diesel engine that might have an oil capacity of 50 quarts......you don't see those vehicles getting oil changes every 3k miles!!! And they punish a motor oil, with higher heat loads and lots of sooty deposits!!! I don't believe synthetics are real popular in these applications, and many of these engines have an expected life of close to a million miles before an overhaul!!

Something to think about....

turbotc · February 2001

Yes, if you look on the back of the Mobil 1 synthetic bottle, you will see a donut saying API Service SJ/CF-2. The SJ means certified for all gasoline and the CF-2 means certified for all diesel engines. Most other oil I see only say API Service SJ on it.

turbotc · February 2001

my 2000 MB E320 oil capacity is 8.5 quarts. Thats a lot of oil.

agt_cooper · February 2001

I thought that many of the high-line German cars had larger oil capacities than most American and Japanese cars...

With that much oil in the system, I'd definitely expect longer drain intervals...

ccotenj · February 2001

my 3er takes 7 quarts...

-Chris

ruking1 · February 2001

Corvette takes app 7 qts
TLC between 7.5-8.5 qts depending on whether you take the small or large filter.

armtdm · February 2001

Good question for engineers. I am sure that engine design has a lot to do with it.

stealth1969 · February 2001

I have used Amsoil in the past and believe it is a very good oil. There are two things that bother me with it. 1. Only the XL-7500 (recommended 7500 mile oil changes) has the API seal and certification. The others do not. I believe it is good oil, but it you use it in your new car and the manual says you need to use API SJ and you have a problem, the dealer could void the engine warrenty because API SJ oil was not used. I don't believe it has happened, but possible. I know Amsoils warrenty is supposed to cover any oil related malfunction (as long as you followed their oil change recommendations) but, what would Amsoil accept to prove the problem is oil related and you changed oil by their recommendations? 2. It is such a pain to get. I don't know of any dealers in my area. When you add the cost of shipping, I don't see where the cost to performance makes it a better deal than Mobile 1 which is much easier to get. I think some of the above also applies to Red LIne and Royal Purple.

ruking1 · February 2001

#821
The problem is one of royalties and costly up front testing. To wear the "donut" you have to pay royalites usually per unit and go through the certification and QA testing procedures.

These smaller companies can in fact have oils that meet or exceed the standards, but in fact do not and cannot wear the donut or logo, for the stated above reasons.

armtdm · February 2001

As with all warranties the manufactureer must prove that the failure of the engine or components was due to either not changing the oil as "suggested" or that it was not API certified. Not changing it or using other oil is not an arguement in itself, they must prove it actually caused the failure... Catastrophic engine failures are not due to failure to change the oil, something else is the culprit. Excessive wear over long periods of time )rings, valves etc. may be caused by not changing the oil (well, assume you did change it; just not as recommended) but that is gradual wear, not catastrophic engine failure. As with most warranties, they are not worth the paper they are printed on and (although I am a loyal Amsoil user of the full, non API certified oil) I do not believe that the Amsoil warranty has ever been tested. I assume that they will be as elusive to pay the claims as any manufacturer!!!! However, the XL7500 is priced the same as the regular 5W30,10W30 oil that they claim is 25,000 miles so why pay the same for a lessor designed oil, are you paying for the API certification on the XL7500???? By the way Harley Davidson oils do not have the API logo either!!!

stealth1969 · February 2001

Thanks for the reply. Why did Amsoil get certification on the XL7500? If it sounded like I am against Amsoil, I'm not. I just wish they made it easier to get.

justin · February 2001

My 2001 Civic EX is going to be due for it's first oil change here shortly. The dealer offers Mobil One, but says that they still use the Honda filter. Is that okay? Or does not using the Mobil One filter defeat the purpose of using Mobil One oil?

I mean, using the Mobil One, even with a factory filter, can't be all that bad can it?

Thanks for your advice.

tboner1965 · February 2001

87 Buick LeSabre 3.8L V6 4 quarts. (How do they last so long?)

98 Contour SVT 2.5L HO V6 5.8 quarts

00 Mazda MPV 2.5L V6 5.5 quarts.

These are including the filter, FWIW.

TB

oilcan2 · February 2001

This oil was designed for the Quick lube
market,that is probably the reason for that
rating.
The greater oil capacity is one of the reasons
I use the By-pass filter,I can get a one to
three quart increase depending on which element
I use.

armtdm · February 2001

Exactly right. The XL7500 is aimed at the quick lube and neighborhood garage market and the fact that most consumers cannot get past the 7,500 maximum oil change intervals.

Yes, the Honda filters are fine with the Mobil 1 oil. I think that the Mobil 1 filter is slightly better but not worth hassling about. If the dealer will put your filter on purchase a Pure One or Mobil 1 prior to future oil changes and see if they will put that on for you?

adc100 · February 2001

Look dude, we live in a slippery world. I wouldn't worry about the rating of the oil. All the dealer needs to see is receipt for the oil and filter. This would be the most required. You are giving people too much credit for being sharp. They will not figure out that that the oil is not SJ. I had a problem some time back and all I had was my signature and date that I changed the oil.

armtdm · February 2001

It does not have the API donut on it but the rating is there.

adc100 · February 2001

but my point's the same.

Al

mdecamps · February 2001

You can use the Mobil 1 in your diesel. The Jetta recommends the 5W40 and says if that is not available, then 5W30 is OK. If you really want the 5W40 in Mobil 1, then go for the Mobil Delvac oil. It is produced for trucks, but will be an excellent choice for your TDI. You may have to go to an oil distributor or truckstop to get it. I have spoken with Mobil about this oil and read over the spec. sheets. It is a superior lubricant that will give you many miles in the VW and will have no problem with the 10K oil changes that VW recommends. I love my TDI!

stealth1969 · February 2001

Thanks for the info. Perhaps I am giving people too much credit. Just gun shy right now I guess. Of course, receipts make all of the difference. Thanks again.

vadp · February 2001

Still wonder what teams use the dino oil during their race events.
Please provide some evidence. I should say that in my humble opinion that statement sounds as ridiculous as it can get.
Also would like to know if there is any info out there showing the reasons not to use synthetics in the rotary engines.
Thanks.

dudleyr · February 2001

How relevant is it what type of oil a race car uses. Race cars don't have to start in 20 below zero weather. Race cars probably have fresh oil before every race. Race cars probably use a single weight that is most appropriate for the high speeds - they don't need multi weight. Race car engines do not have to last for 100 or 200,000 miles. Pretty much any oil will be good for 500 miles. This is just a wild guess, but I would think that physical stress is more of a concern with race car engines, than wear from friction.

My .02

brucer2 · February 2001

Synthetic oil does a better job of lubricating, particularly at elevated, i.e., racing temperatures. This is why they use it. Do you really think people spending a great deal on racing (even amateurs), are going to take a risk on mechanical failure to save a couple of bucks on a quart of oil?
You can rationalize cheapness for yourself, all you want, just use so common sense (in the absence of knowlede) for others.

adc100 · February 2001

Talked to Mobil about the rotary engines. They told me that they have tested it with excellent results, but since the manufacturer recommends against it they have to honor that spec due to liability issues. In other words Mazda is in bed with someone. As far as syn and races. I have read results of engine teardown after races and one report I read in an SAE paper said that with Mobil 1 after 500 miles the engine was judged in excellent condition and could easily have gone another 500 miles. I'm guessing all the brand name people use syn.

Later

Mr_Shiftright · February 2001

I have personally never seen any credible long-term testing results that show that using synthetic in ordinary or even heavy duty street car use has any provable benefit whatsoever...and I have looked and I have studied! So if anyone can direct me to some REAL LIFE results (not an ad brochure from an AMZ-oil salesman, please!), I would appreciate it. The only fleet test I read that had a *control group* (VERY important) was the NY Taxi Fleet report (sadly misplaced in my files, but I'm looking!), and it showed quite conclusively that engines torn down with and without using synthetic showed no perceptible difference in wear. I have seen LAB TESTS on synthetics operating in extremes, but as every engineer knows, real life is often different. From what I HAVE read, most "lab tests" look like bad science....explanation: The synthetic didn't break down when we blasted it with a propane torch, so it must therefore make your Chevy go an extra 100,000 miles.....UMMMM....no--possible non-sequitor.

RACING--Of course I would take advantage of synthetic oil's abilities to withstand heat, but really, many, many cars have won many, many victories before synthetic was ever used....so to what extent it makes the difference between victory and defeat---well, that I just don't know. I don't have the firsthand experience or the race team reports. But As one race driver said (Sterling MOss I believe) "the best race car is the one that breaks 5 seconds after the victory flag (explanation:--strong enough to win the race at a ferocious speed, but not so overbuilt as to impede its performance for victory).

The race car is sacrificial--if you don't believe that, I don't think you can win.

Synthetic in Rotaries---a plausible argument to NOT use synthetics in rotary engines is at www.mazdatrix.com

Apparently, it affects apex seals, but I can't recall if it was BECAUSE it left a residue, or because it didn't...one of the two.

vadp · February 2001

http://www.noria.com/boards/lab.cfm

oilcan2 · February 2001

Here's one off the top of my head,a friend of
mine went from dino oil to amsoil 0w30,was used in
a 28 foot motorhome that would overheat in traffic
all he did was change the oil no other repair.
If every oil manufacturer did a test and was
beaten by the synthetics do you think they would
publish the results?
You can believe it or not but I know of some and
have read posts here of users running synthetic
and extra filters and never changing oil just
taking samples.
I posted this before elsewhere but if you are
really looking for a long term test why don't
you make one yourself,run some dino oil in a
car for 7 or 8k and take a oil sample and see
what shape its in,it probably will not even be
the same weight that it started out as.then do
the same thing with the same car with amsoil or
mobil one ,sample will be quite different.

ruking1 · February 2001

#840

You should quit telling people the truth!! I am trying to get my kid through college with all the unnecessary conventional oil changes!!

Mr_Shiftright · February 2001

I am sorry but I do not believe for one second that an overheating engine would be cured by changing to synthetic oil. This seems to me an impossibility of the highest order. Oil of any type is not a good disperser of heat.

If your friend wished to claim that he had a slightly lower temperature on his heat gauge while hill climbing in his RV, I' might concede that, but to stop an engine from overheating by adding synthetic oil, no way, simply no way. I'd need my face rubbed in it to believe it.

OIL SAMPLE: What good are those, except as sales tools? Here again, it's not good science...you take an oil sample, and they find "so many grams of this, and evidence of that" and you go, OH MY GOD, there's this STUFF in my oil....you're right, AMZ-OIL!

WEll, fact is, these residues and chemicals you find in the oil are not necessarily harmful. If you find LOTS of bearing material in there, and I mean LOTS, you may have a problem.

These tests are for industrial fleets that operate engines under tremendous punishment. They are mostly irrelevant to normal car use I believe.

I've torn down plenty of engines at say 100K that mic out perfectly and are ready for another 100K...this all accomplished with regular oil and regular changes (3K-5K).

How much more than that do you hope to accomplish with expensive synthetic oils and fancy filters? What is the point, really, unless you are really operating in a racing environment or hauling logs up mountains.

I just don't see the argument except to sell Amz-oil or whatever (which is okay, I don't think it is necessary a disservice to sell what may not be needed---if that were true, every over the counter and even "natural" drug company and vitamin company could be called to task.To say nothing of cosmetics.

I don't wish to be harsh, but I think the claims for synthetic oil do not bear scrutiny in the real world. I say that as a user of synthetic, too, on occasion. My Benz diesel has just turned 213,000 miles, and as near as I can tell from the detailed service records, it never had a drop of synthetic oil in its life.

So how do you explain that, and why should I use it then?

7937 · February 2001

Diesel engines are normally longer lasting engines because diesel fuel has lubricating properties. And they are much slower revving than a gasoline engine. I know of diesel electric locomotives that run for a million miles before a major overhaul is needed. Synthetic oil might allow an engine to run cooler due to lower friction on the moving parts. This I know for a fact - my cars run smoother and quieter with synthetic oil and it's certainly not imagination on my part. So my mind tells me there is less wear and tear going on there.

I still think a relatively cheap synthetic like Mobil 1 is a good investment. If you shop around you can get it on special quite often. K-Mart is a good source and I stock up if it is on sale. However, I believe the oil should be changed every 3000 miles if you are using synthetic or not. Cars with small sump capacities just cannot soak up all the impurities that build up under severe driving conditions. So that means just about all city dweller's cars.

spokane · February 2001

I must agree with Shiftright that the heat transfer characteristics of oils are such that a change from conventional to synthetic oil cannot be expected to affect the operating temperature of the engine. If it did somehow result in a change, something else was/is wrong.

A comment on crankcase capacity .... I was not impressed to learn that Pontiac, in the 1979 ongoing effort to improve fuel economy by reducing vehicle weight, reduced the crankcase capacity of the 301 CID engine from 5 to 4 qts. They also removed much of the weight from the crankshaft counterweights.

adc100 · February 2001

Real world tests:

200,000 mile tests (each car). Two BMW's Two Olds. Oil change intervals 15,000 mi. for two cars, 7,500 miles for the other two. Results over 250 measurements on all parts(each engine) resulted in "almost no wear" I saw the parts. They came up to specs for n-e-w parts. Bet you never miced anything like that. Oh, did I mention all vehicles had Mobil 1??

Other info: Sequence IIIE sests performed by API for oil certification. Test Duration- 64 Hours: High speed, flat out, high temperature test of engine lub. ***No*** conventional oil can pass 128 hour test. Mobil 1 has passed Quadruple test. 256 hour. That my son is on a real life engine. They tear the engine down and measure sludge and wear.
More real life: 'Vetts are required to use syn because they run hotter and got rid of oil cooler because they could- with syn.

Expensive Oil/filters???- Chump change. Considering benefits and less work changing oil all the time. I have better things to do.

Later,
Al

armtdm · February 2001

I use oil analysis primarily because I never believed the claims about extended drans so I started doing analysis. As you "MUST KNOW, based upon your seemingly expert comments", oil analysis is really trend analysis and over a period of time and multiple samples one can spot trends in engine wear. Yep. all the metals and chemicals are shown in ppm but again , they are placed there for reasons, it is the trend in increase or decrease of theses chemicals or metals that one looks fro over time.

Please stay with your dino, no one is asking you to change, in fact why are you even on this forum if you have no interest in synthetics???? Any engine will last 100,000 plus miles with crap for oil and a crap filter if you change it every 3,000 miles!!!!!!!!
Whatever floats your boat!

Mr_Shiftright · February 2001

But I DO have an interest in synthetics, and I'm very interested in separating fact and fiction for consumers....so just because I question a claim, or lay out a maintenance scheme to see how it plays out over time, doesn't mean I'm not interested. And as I told you, I've used synthetic at times as well.

I guess what I want people here to consider is that there is a difference between a sales pitch and a fact, and I'd like to see which is which on any given claim.

This could be fun--think of it as a way of putting our and other's people's ideas under the microscope.

For instance....consider this:

Person A here says he measures his engines, and at 200K, there is "no wear".

Okay, great....but wait a minute....NO WEAR? Does this mean then that the engine will run forever? When does wear START? So it hasn't started yet at 200K? No wear?

By "logic", then, if there's no wear at 200K, and just about any modern engine will run 200K with good car (regardless of the oil you use presuming it is quality), then his engines will absolutely run 400K (since they are "new" at 200K).

Doesn't this strike you as implausible? It does me.

Here is my read on all this--

1. that synthetic oils will give you certain definite benefits.

2. That not every driver needs these benefits...some do, some don't

3. Synthetic oils have little or no effect on longevity of moving parts AS LONG AS the "control engine", using regular oil, is well-maintained.

4. Last of all, even if it were TRUE (and perhaps it is), that your engine will run 400K on synthetic oil, the rest of your car is not likely to last 400K, so what's the point?

Ball in your court!

tradland · February 2001

Hi just wonderin maybe it was covered before when
can i use a synthetic Motor Oil should i wait a certain amount of miles for Engine to break in before switchin to MOBIL 1. Is it ok to use synthetic oil if ur car came with regular oil in the begining.

armtdm · February 2001

You can switch at any time.

Mr shiftright

Your points are not worth arguing about!

vadp · February 2001

Please try to read more about the topic.
If you want to separate facts from fiction you need to arm yourself with more info.
Otherwise you'll just get people upset.
I don't think that you want to provoke pointless arguing on this board.

Synthetic motor oil

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