I cannot think of a single reason to invest in an engine block heater; consider the following:
1) Heating the engine block does nothing for the oil down in the pan, it is still cold and thick (assuming dino oil)
2) I don't know how much heaters draw in the form of current, but I imagine that the initial outlay for the heater and installation plus the ongoing cost of keeping it plugged in isn't insignificant.
3) What do you do when you're parked at work or at a park-and-ride or a party or a shopping mall on a cold day that doesn't have a plug?
4) If you're talking about an oil pan heater and not a block heater; I've read a number of reports over the years regarding the corrosive effects of the condensation that forms inside of an engine with a heated oil sump; not pretty.
5) A "Zero-Double-U" something synthetic oil (i.e. 0W-20, 0W-30, or 0W-40) will work pretty much any time, any where with none of the above "negatives".
I have no block heaters, but attached garage is a big benefit when there is one of those really cold nights. It can be 20 degrees or more warmer in the garage than it is outside. At work (for me) it is daytime and typically not going to be quite as cold as the night.
Long ago I had a car that had a block heater that heated the radiator water. I never really thought about it much, other than I just liked the fact that I had immediate heat that way (especially since I was parking outside at the time). However, I'd guess that some of the heat from something like that would be conducted to the oil pan?
(Not that I am disagreeing with the points about the advantages of synthetic for extreme cold starts)
I remember that I put my heater on a timer, because the electricity use was not insignificant. Looking on-line it appears that these things can be 750 watts. That would cost 9 cents an hour at the average rate of 12 cents per kWh, so leaving it on for 10-12 hours would be about $1 a day at average electric rates.
"However, I'd guess that some of the heat from something like that would be conducted to the oil pan?"
Hmmm, I suppose a very-VERY tiny amount of heat might find its way down from the block via the walls of the oil pan, and that in turn might raise the temperature of the oil a fraction of a degree, but I seriously doubt it would do much to keep conventional oil warm enough to flow well when the temperatures are well below zero.
The benefits of heaters, like everything, depend significantly on the environment.
A block heater (400w) does allow for easier starts on cold mornings, but only within the limits of the oil's pour point since it does not assist with heating the oil pan, as Shipo commented. It does, however, heat the coolant inside the engine, which in turn heats the cylinders and heads and allows for easier turning of those parts. If the oil in the pan is as thick as (or thicker than) molasses, it puts hefty strain on the oil pump to move it, which is where an oil pan heater (75w) comes in.
Block heaters will help an engine start noticeably easier at temperatures below 15-20 F, and oil pan heaters, when used in conjunction (they should never be used solo), will add their assistance when approaching zero (depending on the oil being used). The heaters only need to be on for a maximum of two hours prior to starting to provide full benefit. So, 475 watts at two hours is nearly a kilowatt, which is about 20 cents (expensive!) here in Fairbanks, AK, but it makes for easier starts on cold mornings (I plug in my vehicles at zero or colder) or the difference between starting or not on frigid mornings (-20 and colder).
Also, in areas that need them, most places are equipped with "headbolts," which are electrical outlets mounted on posts in the parking lots for employee use. Heating vehicles is not generally necessary for errands as it takes two or more hours, depending on the ambient temperature, for the engine to fully cool from the last period of operation.
I agree that in areas that rarely see extreme cold, such heaters would provide little to no benefit aside from the initial morning start, assuming the owner remembered to plug in the vehicle a couple hours prior to starting.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
I had a Plymouth Horizon with the 2.2 liter engine in the early 1980's that came factory-equipped with a block heater. It definitely made cold starts easier (the car never saw synthetic oil) and it helped provide interior heat to the passenger compartment within a couple of blocks of home.
Sadly, my Passat doesn't have freeze plugs for a heater, but my next car (whatever that will be) will get a block heater since my vehicle sits outside 24/7.
Stopped by my local tire place and their price for the synthetic oil was like $14.00 more than regular dino, they use Kendall oil products, so was thinking just spending the extra $ and doing the synthetic. Would just have to remeber to reset the oil minder when it gets down to 15% This way I could just do a once a year oil change and hopefully get the added protection & better mileage. South Florida is a very temperate climate, except the past 3 weeks where it got into the 30's & 40's at night.
But I'm still tossing the idea around...nothing is set in stone right now.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Yesterday my truck, a 2001 Chevy S-10 with a 4.3 V6 may have lost its water pump. Meaning I dumped all my coolant out while driving down the road. Well, the majority of it anyway. Since I happened to be about 25 miles from home when this happened I really had no choice but to go forward as best I could.
While driving, I watched my temp gauge more than I watched the road. When the temp gauge normally runs right below 210. When I realized I had lost coolant the gauge began climbing and was stuck for a while between 210 and 260. I flipped the heater on (one of the reasons I didn't catch it earlier was I wasn't running the heater since it was a really warm night. Had I been running the heater, I would have noticed the loss of heat A LOT sooner than before the gauge started climbing.) I was hoping the heater would help cool me off a bit. But no dice. It variated between mild heat and no heat, but never very warm. Then the gauge climbed to between the 3/4 mark and all the way hot. Then it dropped, then it climbed and dropped. Then it pegged, then it dropped and climbed a little bit again and finally it dropped back to the 3/4 mark for my last mile. It only pegged for a bit, but for probably 5 miles or so it hovered between 3/4 and the 260 mark. It only pegged a couple of times.
During this whole time I kept my ear glued to the sound the motor was making as well as it's power delivery. Both stayed consistent with how I am used it running. I was listening real close for lifter and valvetrain noise. (It overheated about 50K miles ago when the T-stat clogged and a lower radiator hose blew and and that time I had MAJOR lifter noise before I realized what had happened) This time, none of that. That is part of the reason I felt I could continue to my destination.
Once at my destination I was able to get it to cool off and get water back into it, but my that's a different story. My question here is I have about 2K miles on the oil change. It is M1 0w30. My thought is that is the reason it was able to stay lubricated at such a high temperature. My question is though, how badly has the oil been degraded because of the high temps? Would it be wise to run it through my standard 10K OCI or would it better to change it sooner than that, or is it shot now and needs to be changed soon? I probably drove 10 miles or so with it running really warm and probably 5 or 6 running it REALLY warm.
(I was able to get enough water into the truck to get back home 35 miles away and it ran fine all the way home. The temp gauge never budged from just below the 210 mark on the way home, although I had to stop and fill the recovery tank once and the underside of my truck is COATED in coolant... but I'm headed to that forum now to get more help in that department....)
Well once the coolant is gone, then the oil must take over the cooling properties as best it can, and without an oil temp gauge we have no idea how hot the oil got. Your temp gauge is actually USELESS once the coolant drains out---your gauge cannot read "steam".
I'm glad you made it home but in my opinion, the decision you made was not a good one.
Sure change the oil, add coolant and cross your fingers, and next time, STOP and call a tow truck.
I did check the oil once stopped and the dipstick tube wasn't smoking when I pulled out the dipstick. I have had this happen, or rather seen this before on cars that have over heated...
I don't if that is a telling sign or not?? Plus I know I didn't lose ALL my coolant as when I was refilling it with the radiator cap off and had the truck running while doing so, once it reached the 210 mark and the T-stat opened up, it started forcing actual coolant back up to the recovery tank. I was just filling it with water since I didn't have coolant available so to see actual green coolant was a little surprising. I also surmised that I might not have been completely out since my heater was still sort of functioning. I have had a slight coolant leak for a while and I have had to add a gallon of coolant every month of so (I also drive 80 miles a day) and had just added some so I wasn't too worried. I know that when my heater stops working I have run low on coolant, but not empty. Just not enough to get into the heater core. Not that I use that as my indicator to add more, but before I realized I had a slow leak, this is what would happen and it baffled me as to why I would be running at operating temperature but still have no heat. ...
Yes, there are all sorts of things I could have, should have done.... but what's done is done and here's hoping there isn't any major permanent damage. Next up? Water pump change. (Oh and fix that other minor coolant leak too, which I am pretty sure is an intake manifold gasket...)
Without an oil analysis you can't really know the condition of the oil, or the engine, at this point.
A smoking dipstick would be a real bad thing.
In any event, you're stressing the engine out, seems to me, running so low on coolant. Once you're low on coolant, you simply cannot trust the temp gauge. It requires to be bathed in coolant to work.
Probably what was happening with the temperature gauge is that as air got into the system, the temperature gauge would alternately "see" air then super heated water. The air would be cooler to the sensor than the super heated water, thus the wild gauge fluctuations.
At the very least I would change the oil and filter. M1 is, what, $22 for 5 qts at Walley World nowadays? Then, just keep your fingers crossed.
Who knows, maybe it'd be fine, maybe not. To me, it's a no-brainer - if the truck is worth more than $500, and you are going to keep it, throw the dough into new oil and filter.
I had a Mazda B2200 a few years back, and to clean the oil system out, put Wal-Mart big-jug cheap oil in it for ONE DAY. The idea was to drive around for awhile, heat up the oil to circulate, and then put in Mobil1. A hot day in So Cal, maybe 95'. Less than 30 miles out, going up a hill, I lunched two cam-followers. They make a tremendous racket as they alternately "weld / break the weld" to the end of the valve. I saved $6 and cost me a lot of grief and money. Never again.
I know you don't want a lecture but I just can't believe you would have driven that truck knowing it didn't have coolant!
There is a good chance you have damaged your engine more than you know. I would change the oil and check the oil level very often from this point forward.
A lot of cars wouyldn't have been as forgiving and you may not be out of the woods here.
Hmmm... Ya I know. I know. However, I just yesterday (the truck has been parked for two weeks, so I am not a TOTAL moron) took it to a buddy's house and he and I tore it down and fixed it. Long story short, (post # 39 here : http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f19cfe8)the intake manifold gasket was bad. We ended up tearing the top half of the motor off. Looking into the valley and then after peering into the combustion chamber and looking at the valves, everything "looks" good. The oil looks good, the motor itself looks really good. No sludge, no burnt oil, no shavings, nothing. Whether that is a tell tale sign or not, I don't know. Only time will tell from here on out I guess.
Lesson learned is what I call, albeit, it could be a VERY expensive lesson, but I think all will be fine. And to be fair... it always did have SOME coolant because I know what the truck does when it has NO coolant as I have had that happen to me before. That is why I went as far as I did. Anyway, it seems to be fixed and has been driving fine as I have used it today and paid very close attention to its power delivery, starting ability, how it idles everything. And all seems normal. Nothing unusual.
That is one thing I will be keeping an eye on for the next several days/miles. I drive 80 miles a day so a consumption problem will rear its ugly head real quick. Fingers crossed and hoping and praying... I want to keep the oil in there a bit longer just to make sure everything is sealed internally too and come this weekend I'll probably change it. When I change it, I'll check it for leakage into the oil pan. I haven't noticed any condensation on the dipstick yet, but it's only been about 100 miles since we put it back together...
Isellhonda, I bet you know the answer to my question. I added ~0.2 qt too much in the last oil change (Accord, 06, 4-cy, 39K miles), judging by how much the level went over the full mark. This is not going to harm the engine, is it? Thanks.
An interesting observation. I use Castrol 5W20 and wait for the oil life minder to drop to 15% to change the oil, which ends up being >6 months and 7K miles. I've had to add up to a qt of oil somewhere during the >6 months. I'm doing this per Honda's recommendation. I hope I'm not hurting my car. This actually eliminates the need to use synthetic because I'm happy with the duration.
Most people would consdier a 6-8 months/7K miles too long an interval for oil changes. But I guess it speaks to the quality of modern engeering. I initially thought about using synthetic in my Accord but like you said why bother if I'm happy with two oil changes a year.
By the way, have you tried to change the air filter on the Accord? One of the screws is REALLY hard to reach! Bad design.
Put my first synthetic (Quaker Horsepower 10W30) in my 100,000 mile 3800 2003 leSabre.
I drove 7200 or 7500 in 6 months, including winter. I sent in the oil for analysis. It came back with a 3.5 TBN which was interpreted to me that the oil had lots of life yet in its additive package.
Since it was the first synthetic change after years of 3000 mile -3500 mile oil changes with name brand oils, it was changed at 35% indicated on the oil life indicator that GM uses. I decided to change because the color had started to darken during the last few hundred miles. And I suspected some engine cleaning had occurred with the synthetic picking up traces of stuff left by regular oil during 100,000 miles.
The oil test showed little wear of engine materials in the oil.
Used oil analysis (UOA) is an excellent way to find the "sweet spot" for your particular oil/filter/vehicle/conditions combination for extended drain intervals.
I ran a couple of tests (my first ones!) on the last oil that was in my car. After 7500 miles on the oil, the TBN showed 4.2. After another 4053 miles (on the same oil), the TBN was at 3.2. I added a pint of oil at the time of the first testing because I replaced the oil filter at that time. So, I basically put five quarts of oil through the engine in 11,553 miles, which would have been about three oil changes had I been using run-of-the-mill conventional oil / filters and not done any analysis. All told, monetary cost was about the same as had I done those extra oil changes, but waste was much lower and I learned about how the engine and oil were aging.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
I use Mobil 5W30 in our Nissan Quest and change it at the same interval as yours. I never had it tested but am pretty sure the oil should hold up well just as your experience.
Let's hope Honda got it right with their recommendation. I was quite skeptical at first and still am. Should've had it analysed for peace of mind.
No one really needs to use synthetic oil. One either chooses to or chooses not to. Certain operating conditions would strongly favor using a synthetic but few require it. There are two issues to consider on weather to use a synthetic oil.
1) Do I want or need to use an oil that is engineered and proven to be a superior lubricant compared to conventional motor oil? That superior oil will last longer because it lubricates better causing less friction and engine wear, dissipates heat better, and does not break down as quickly from the chemical reaction on oil from the process of combustion.
2) Do I want to save money?
Change oil once a year or 2-3-4 times a year? It's a no brainer for me.
3) Some manufacturers (VW/Audi, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW to name a few) absolutely require not only synthetic oil, but synthetic oil that meets some very stringent performance criteria that is above and beyond run-of-the-mill synthetic.
I agree with you. I'm too lazy and busy to do a UOA on my Accord oil. I did one after the first oil change on the factory oil and posted the stellar results on thsi board (back in 2007). But factory oil is different from the Castrol 5W20 I'm using now. It's a thin conventional oil, which makes me nervous, which is why I hope Honda knew what it was doing in its maintenance recommendation. I'm putting my blind trust in them I guess.
Having said that I have no doubt synthetic oil would perform better in my Accord. What I'm counting on is the convention Castrol I'm using performs sufficiently.
5-20?? Wow, that is very thin oil. Don't know how well that would work down here in the deep deep south during the summer months..... i'd be leary for sure.
These days most manufacturers specify 5W-20 in the US, nothing unusual about that.
I don't think it really should matter much if your engine is located in the "deep south", as the cooling system should keep the temperature of the engine about the same whether the air temperature is 100 or 80.
My 06 Accord 4 (cyl, manual, 48K miles, 5W-20 conventional Castrol) burned about 1.2 qt in ~3K miles and 3 months. Is this normal? It didn't use to be this bad. I overfilled it by ~0.2 qt this last time. Could the overfilling have cuased this in some bizzar way? The oil still looks clean and light colored. And I do drive very gently mostly on the highway in the mild southern california climate.
Thanks srs_49. I know, and this is what Honda would say to me too if I were to ask them But everything else being equal I'd rather my car not burn this much oil. My other cars didn't, and this one is a HONDA for crying out loud. My oil level actually dipped from 0.2 qt above "full" to below the minimum in 3 short months--scary! i was still worried about it being too full! Good thing I checked.
"Normal" means that it's in the range of acceptability. I would be worried about the excess pollutants that burning this amount of oil produces, as well as the deposits this leaves on plugs and valves. Accordingly, I'd suggest going to a higher weight oil. 5W30, 5W40, 10W30, or even 10W 40 (since you live in a warm climate), would slow down the oil loss. Were you posting here, as a way of asking if Synthetic Oil would be better for this car? It probably would have been, and may have prevented the early wear that's causing this. Now, higher weight conventional oil is a good way to go.
Have you checked and/or changed your PCV Valve? A bad one can caused this issue as well.
You shouldn't worry about pollutants. That little amount of oil burning won't even affect strict California smog testing.
An engineer might even tell you that a small amount of oil burning is good for the engine's upper cylinder lubrication. Some very high performance cars use a bit of oil right out of the box (the engines, under extreme duress, need to be built just a tad looser) and race cars, too, of course.
What you DON'T want to see is gradually increasing oil burning, month-to-month.
Thanks guys! That's exactly why I posted here--to learn a few new things. I probably should've posted on the Accord board to see if this is common for this engine. But that one seems to be dead.
I'll definitely keep a closer eye on the oil from now on. I certainly hope it's not experienceing premature wear. I'm a little hesitant to use higher weight oil because of Honda's recommendation of the 5w-20. I also don't want to spend the extra money on synthetic at this point because I follow the Honda on-board oil change minder and change the oil at intervals longer than 6 months which is plenty long for me. If I can prevent unusual wear by topping off the oil every now and then, I'll be fine with that. Another thing to mention is that my Accord has consistently given 32-33 mpg. Could this be a positive indication of lack of excessive engine wear?
I recently also switched from synthetic Mobile 5w30 back to conventional oil on my Nissan Quest because my local dealership offers a discount which amounts to ~$15 per change. Saves me money, time and hassel.
Mr_S - You see any validity to PCV suggestion? I had one that got stuck closed once, and wouldn't draw blowby from crankcase, thru breather and into intake. Pressurized the crankcase and blew oil right thru valve stem seals. Messed up the filter breather bad. New PCV valve (cheap) cleared that up.
The oil viscosity choice is a trade-off between low-temp lubrication (especially at start-up); high temperature lubrication (So Cal Summers); and fuel mileage (thinner is better). Consumption in the normal range is less important than these. However, I'd check with Honda to see if 10W30 is OK for SO Cal. It would lessen consumption, other things being equal.
"You see any validity to PCV suggestion? I had one that got stuck closed once, and wouldn't draw blowby from crankcase, thru breather and into intake. Pressurized the crankcase and blew oil right thru valve stem seals. Messed up the filter breather bad. New PCV valve (cheap) cleared that up."
Yes, PCV systems are frequently the culprit behind accelerated oil use; that said, at 1 quart per 3000 miles, it sounds like you're well within normal oil consumption rates and as such, I wouldn't think the PCV system was the issue.
"The oil viscosity choice is a trade-off between low-temp lubrication (especially at start-up); high temperature lubrication (So Cal Summers); and fuel mileage (thinner is better)."
Actually; that isn't necesarily true. The thing is, a 0W-40 is thinner than a 5W-20 when it's cold and yet it is still thicker than that same 5W-20 when its warm. That said, I seriously doubt a heavier (when warm) oil like any "something"W-30 or "something"W-40 will affect your oil consumption rate one iota.
Oh sure a bad/clogged PCV can cause oil consumption, especially on certain cars, but I didn't suggest it because his oil burning was so minimal so as to suggest that the PCV wasn't the issue.
The clue that caught my eye was of the onset of the oil burning after the over filling with oil. With PCV Valves being so inexpensive, I see no reason not to replace them when something like this comes up. Another tip - the national chain auto-parts stores often carry the plastic-case valves for my old Honda CRV. Honda valves generally are better quality, and about $3 more expensive.
True. I was specifically commenting on 2006 Honda Accord with 1.2 qts/mo oil consumption that came on suddenly at 60k-ish.
I've owned English cars, American Cars, and Japanese cars. Ordered a new Subaru Forester this week, and so may go to my grave without the love/hate relationship that my pal has had with his BMW 540i.. Great to drive, expensive to keep driving. Have not sat in a repair shop's waiting room since 1990, and really hate the thought of that time-suck.
Well, success or failure with German cars has a tremendous amount to do with owner participation and the quality of the dealer or the repair shops. Many of these cars are ruined out of incompetence, poor maintenance, etc. Also parts prices can vary wildly depending on where you shop.
American drivers are not, as a rule, very maintenance attentive. They think every car is a 1965 Chevy pickup. They drop it off, expect it to be fixed in an hour, and cost relatively little.
Many high-performance cars use what we call "narrow engineering"---they try to achieve very high levels of performance due to extra-precision. This gives us a very exciting and accurate car to drive, but one that demands more of us I think.
This is not to make excuses for glitches in a BMW, only to emphasize that it's often made a lot worse by human error or a blind eye.
The short answer is; Some people really shouldn't be matched to certain cars.
That'd be a bummer if i had to replace the PCV. I'm sure my Honda dealership will try to charge me an arm and a leg for it I'll keep an eye on the oil and hopefully the burning was a random event and doesn't repeat again.
The book says it's simple. $19 for the part and .3 of one hour labor----so looks like what....$50 bucks maybe if you have the dealer do it? I don't see why you couldn't do this yourself...it's just a "plug and play" operation. Take off the PCV hose, remove the valve, put in a new seal and new valve, and reconnect the hose.....done!
If you can find and remove the old PCV Valve, and you are troubled by the few buck it costs to replace it, there's a cheap way to test the old one: shake it. Hold it by the ends between thumb and forefinger, and shake it a few times along the long dimension and see if you hear a sharp metallic click when the internal spring-loaded valve opens, then closes. If not, replace it. If it's oily and dirty, replace it. If it's merely oily, you can try cleaning it out with acetone, MEK. Read the can for cautionary information. And watch out - wear eye protection if you do this, and do it away from anything or anyone you care about, especially if they are smoking). Put some solvent in it, hold the ends closed with thumb and finger as above, and shake it. If the solvent comes out clean, you're thru cleaning it. Then shake it dry (open ended), let it sit for 5 minutes or so with both ends exposed, and then reinstall.
This just took a whole lot longer to write than it did for me to actually remove and clean the PCV Valve in my CRV. Just my cheap old guy way of keeping up with maintenance. Good luck.
Guys, thanks again for the suggestions. What do you think of my plan to give the car a couple of months to see if burning continues and then replace the PCV if needed? Assuming running with a bad PCV is not going to damage the engine.
This just took a whole lot longer to write than it did for me to actually remove and clean the PCV Valve
That's for sure! I think it took about two minutes (including opening and closing the hood) to change the PCV valve in my Escort.
Tamu, if the system is clogged due to a bad PCV valve, it will cause pressurization inside the engine. You can probably test this just by loosening the oil filler cap or pulling out the oil dipstick a little either while the engine is running or immediately after shutting it off. If there is pressure, you can hear it escape as the seal is broken. At least, I could on my Escort - its filler is on the top of the head.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Comments
1) Heating the engine block does nothing for the oil down in the pan, it is still cold and thick (assuming dino oil)
2) I don't know how much heaters draw in the form of current, but I imagine that the initial outlay for the heater and installation plus the ongoing cost of keeping it plugged in isn't insignificant.
3) What do you do when you're parked at work or at a park-and-ride or a party or a shopping mall on a cold day that doesn't have a plug?
4) If you're talking about an oil pan heater and not a block heater; I've read a number of reports over the years regarding the corrosive effects of the condensation that forms inside of an engine with a heated oil sump; not pretty.
5) A "Zero-Double-U" something synthetic oil (i.e. 0W-20, 0W-30, or 0W-40) will work pretty much any time, any where with none of the above "negatives".
So, why bother? :confuse:
Best regards,
Shipo
Long ago I had a car that had a block heater that heated the radiator water. I never really thought about it much, other than I just liked the fact that I had immediate heat that way (especially since I was parking outside at the time). However, I'd guess that some of the heat from something like that would be conducted to the oil pan?
(Not that I am disagreeing with the points about the advantages of synthetic for extreme cold starts)
I remember that I put my heater on a timer, because the electricity use was not insignificant. Looking on-line it appears that these things can be 750 watts. That would cost 9 cents an hour at the average rate of 12 cents per kWh, so leaving it on for 10-12 hours would be about $1 a day at average electric rates.
Hmmm, I suppose a very-VERY tiny amount of heat might find its way down from the block via the walls of the oil pan, and that in turn might raise the temperature of the oil a fraction of a degree, but I seriously doubt it would do much to keep conventional oil warm enough to flow well when the temperatures are well below zero.
A block heater (400w) does allow for easier starts on cold mornings, but only within the limits of the oil's pour point since it does not assist with heating the oil pan, as Shipo commented. It does, however, heat the coolant inside the engine, which in turn heats the cylinders and heads and allows for easier turning of those parts. If the oil in the pan is as thick as (or thicker than) molasses, it puts hefty strain on the oil pump to move it, which is where an oil pan heater (75w) comes in.
Block heaters will help an engine start noticeably easier at temperatures below 15-20 F, and oil pan heaters, when used in conjunction (they should never be used solo), will add their assistance when approaching zero (depending on the oil being used). The heaters only need to be on for a maximum of two hours prior to starting to provide full benefit. So, 475 watts at two hours is nearly a kilowatt, which is about 20 cents (expensive!) here in Fairbanks, AK, but it makes for easier starts on cold mornings (I plug in my vehicles at zero or colder) or the difference between starting or not on frigid mornings (-20 and colder).
Also, in areas that need them, most places are equipped with "headbolts," which are electrical outlets mounted on posts in the parking lots for employee use. Heating vehicles is not generally necessary for errands as it takes two or more hours, depending on the ambient temperature, for the engine to fully cool from the last period of operation.
I agree that in areas that rarely see extreme cold, such heaters would provide little to no benefit aside from the initial morning start, assuming the owner remembered to plug in the vehicle a couple hours prior to starting.
Sadly, my Passat doesn't have freeze plugs for a heater, but my next car (whatever that will be) will get a block heater since my vehicle sits outside 24/7.
It's a cheap option and well worth it, IMHO.
But I'm still tossing the idea around...nothing is set in stone right now.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Yesterday my truck, a 2001 Chevy S-10 with a 4.3 V6 may have lost its water pump. Meaning I dumped all my coolant out while driving down the road. Well, the majority of it anyway. Since I happened to be about 25 miles from home when this happened I really had no choice but to go forward as best I could.
While driving, I watched my temp gauge more than I watched the road. When the temp gauge normally runs right below 210. When I realized I had lost coolant the gauge began climbing and was stuck for a while between 210 and 260. I flipped the heater on (one of the reasons I didn't catch it earlier was I wasn't running the heater since it was a really warm night. Had I been running the heater, I would have noticed the loss of heat A LOT sooner than before the gauge started climbing.) I was hoping the heater would help cool me off a bit. But no dice. It variated between mild heat and no heat, but never very warm. Then the gauge climbed to between the 3/4 mark and all the way hot. Then it dropped, then it climbed and dropped. Then it pegged, then it dropped and climbed a little bit again and finally it dropped back to the 3/4 mark for my last mile. It only pegged for a bit, but for probably 5 miles or so it hovered between 3/4 and the 260 mark. It only pegged a couple of times.
During this whole time I kept my ear glued to the sound the motor was making as well as it's power delivery. Both stayed consistent with how I am used it running. I was listening real close for lifter and valvetrain noise. (It overheated about 50K miles ago when the T-stat clogged and a lower radiator hose blew and and that time I had MAJOR lifter noise before I realized what had happened) This time, none of that. That is part of the reason I felt I could continue to my destination.
Once at my destination I was able to get it to cool off and get water back into it, but my that's a different story. My question here is I have about 2K miles on the oil change. It is M1 0w30. My thought is that is the reason it was able to stay lubricated at such a high temperature. My question is though, how badly has the oil been degraded because of the high temps? Would it be wise to run it through my standard 10K OCI or would it better to change it sooner than that, or is it shot now and needs to be changed soon? I probably drove 10 miles or so with it running really warm and probably 5 or 6 running it REALLY warm.
(I was able to get enough water into the truck to get back home 35 miles away and it ran fine all the way home. The temp gauge never budged from just below the 210 mark on the way home, although I had to stop and fill the recovery tank once and the underside of my truck is COATED in coolant... but I'm headed to that forum now to get more help in that department....)
I'm glad you made it home but in my opinion, the decision you made was not a good one.
Sure change the oil, add coolant and cross your fingers, and next time, STOP and call a tow truck.
I don't if that is a telling sign or not?? Plus I know I didn't lose ALL my coolant as when I was refilling it with the radiator cap off and had the truck running while doing so, once it reached the 210 mark and the T-stat opened up, it started forcing actual coolant back up to the recovery tank. I was just filling it with water since I didn't have coolant available so to see actual green coolant was a little surprising. I also surmised that I might not have been completely out since my heater was still sort of functioning. I have had a slight coolant leak for a while and I have had to add a gallon of coolant every month of so (I also drive 80 miles a day) and had just added some so I wasn't too worried. I know that when my heater stops working I have run low on coolant, but not empty. Just not enough to get into the heater core. Not that I use that as my indicator to add more, but before I realized I had a slow leak, this is what would happen and it baffled me as to why I would be running at operating temperature but still have no heat. ...
Yes, there are all sorts of things I could have, should have done.... but what's done is done and here's hoping there isn't any major permanent damage. Next up? Water pump change. (Oh and fix that other minor coolant leak too, which I am pretty sure is an intake manifold gasket...)
A smoking dipstick would be a real bad thing.
In any event, you're stressing the engine out, seems to me, running so low on coolant. Once you're low on coolant, you simply cannot trust the temp gauge. It requires to be bathed in coolant to work.
At the very least I would change the oil and filter. M1 is, what, $22 for 5 qts at Walley World nowadays? Then, just keep your fingers crossed.
I had a Mazda B2200 a few years back, and to clean the oil system out, put Wal-Mart big-jug cheap oil in it for ONE DAY. The idea was to drive around for awhile, heat up the oil to circulate, and then put in Mobil1. A hot day in So Cal, maybe 95'. Less than 30 miles out, going up a hill, I lunched two cam-followers. They make a tremendous racket as they alternately "weld / break the weld" to the end of the valve. I saved $6 and cost me a lot of grief and money. Never again.
There is a good chance you have damaged your engine more than you know. I would change the oil and check the oil level very often from this point forward.
A lot of cars wouyldn't have been as forgiving and you may not be out of the woods here.
Lesson learned is what I call, albeit, it could be a VERY expensive lesson, but I think all will be fine. And to be fair... it always did have SOME coolant because I know what the truck does when it has NO coolant as I have had that happen to me before. That is why I went as far as I did. Anyway, it seems to be fixed and has been driving fine as I have used it today and paid very close attention to its power delivery, starting ability, how it idles everything. And all seems normal. Nothing unusual.
so here's hoping...
Do check your oil consumption. If it got real hot it could have taken the temper out of the rings.
An interesting observation. I use Castrol 5W20 and wait for the oil life minder to drop to 15% to change the oil, which ends up being >6 months and 7K miles. I've had to add up to a qt of oil somewhere during the >6 months. I'm doing this per Honda's recommendation. I hope I'm not hurting my car. This actually eliminates the need to use synthetic because I'm happy with the duration.
If you are changing your oil that often, I see no need to use synthetics but, then I see no real benefit to them in the first place.
Others will no doubt disagree.
By the way, have you tried to change the air filter on the Accord? One of the screws is REALLY hard to reach! Bad design.
I drove 7200 or 7500 in 6 months, including winter. I sent in the oil for analysis. It came back with a 3.5 TBN which was interpreted to me that the oil had lots of life yet in its additive package.
Since it was the first synthetic change after years of 3000 mile -3500 mile oil changes with name brand oils, it was changed at 35% indicated on the oil life indicator that GM uses. I decided to change because the color had started to darken during the last few hundred miles. And I suspected some engine cleaning had occurred with the synthetic picking up traces of stuff left by regular oil during 100,000 miles.
The oil test showed little wear of engine materials in the oil.
Best $30 I spent.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I ran a couple of tests (my first ones!) on the last oil that was in my car. After 7500 miles on the oil, the TBN showed 4.2. After another 4053 miles (on the same oil), the TBN was at 3.2. I added a pint of oil at the time of the first testing because I replaced the oil filter at that time. So, I basically put five quarts of oil through the engine in 11,553 miles, which would have been about three oil changes had I been using run-of-the-mill conventional oil / filters and not done any analysis. All told, monetary cost was about the same as had I done those extra oil changes, but waste was much lower and I learned about how the engine and oil were aging.
Let's hope Honda got it right with their recommendation. I was quite skeptical at first and still am. Should've had it analysed for peace of mind.
1) Do I want or need to use an oil that is engineered and proven to be a superior lubricant compared to conventional motor oil? That superior oil will last longer because it lubricates better causing less friction and engine wear, dissipates heat better, and does not break down as quickly from the chemical reaction on oil from the process of combustion.
2) Do I want to save money?
Change oil once a year or 2-3-4 times a year? It's a no brainer for me.
3) Some manufacturers (VW/Audi, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW to name a few) absolutely require not only synthetic oil, but synthetic oil that meets some very stringent performance criteria that is above and beyond run-of-the-mill synthetic.
Having said that I have no doubt synthetic oil would perform better in my Accord. What I'm counting on is the convention Castrol I'm using performs sufficiently.
I don't think it really should matter much if your engine is located in the "deep south", as the cooling system should keep the temperature of the engine about the same whether the air temperature is 100 or 80.
Thanks.
Have you checked and/or changed your PCV Valve? A bad one can caused this issue as well.
An engineer might even tell you that a small amount of oil burning is good for the engine's upper cylinder lubrication. Some very high performance cars use a bit of oil right out of the box (the engines, under extreme duress, need to be built just a tad looser) and race cars, too, of course.
What you DON'T want to see is gradually increasing oil burning, month-to-month.
I'll definitely keep a closer eye on the oil from now on. I certainly hope it's not experienceing premature wear. I'm a little hesitant to use higher weight oil because of Honda's recommendation of the 5w-20. I also don't want to spend the extra money on synthetic at this point because I follow the Honda on-board oil change minder and change the oil at intervals longer than 6 months which is plenty long for me. If I can prevent unusual wear by topping off the oil every now and then, I'll be fine with that. Another thing to mention is that my Accord has consistently given 32-33 mpg. Could this be a positive indication of lack of excessive engine wear?
I recently also switched from synthetic Mobile 5w30 back to conventional oil on my Nissan Quest because my local dealership offers a discount which amounts to ~$15 per change. Saves me money, time and hassel.
The oil viscosity choice is a trade-off between low-temp lubrication (especially at start-up); high temperature lubrication (So Cal Summers); and fuel mileage (thinner is better). Consumption in the normal range is less important than these. However, I'd check with Honda to see if 10W30 is OK for SO Cal. It would lessen consumption, other things being equal.
Yes, PCV systems are frequently the culprit behind accelerated oil use; that said, at 1 quart per 3000 miles, it sounds like you're well within normal oil consumption rates and as such, I wouldn't think the PCV system was the issue.
"The oil viscosity choice is a trade-off between low-temp lubrication (especially at start-up); high temperature lubrication (So Cal Summers); and fuel mileage (thinner is better)."
Actually; that isn't necesarily true. The thing is, a 0W-40 is thinner than a 5W-20 when it's cold and yet it is still thicker than that same 5W-20 when its warm. That said, I seriously doubt a heavier (when warm) oil like any "something"W-30 or "something"W-40 will affect your oil consumption rate one iota.
Tamu2002, let us know how things turn out?
I've owned English cars, American Cars, and Japanese cars. Ordered a new Subaru Forester this week, and so may go to my grave without the love/hate relationship that my pal has had with his BMW 540i.. Great to drive, expensive to keep driving. Have not sat in a repair shop's waiting room since 1990, and really hate the thought of that time-suck.
American drivers are not, as a rule, very maintenance attentive. They think every car is a 1965 Chevy pickup. They drop it off, expect it to be fixed in an hour, and cost relatively little.
Many high-performance cars use what we call "narrow engineering"---they try to achieve very high levels of performance due to extra-precision. This gives us a very exciting and accurate car to drive, but one that demands more of us I think.
This is not to make excuses for glitches in a BMW, only to emphasize that it's often made a lot worse by human error or a blind eye.
The short answer is; Some people really shouldn't be matched to certain cars.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Beck-Arnley-045-0346-PCV-Valve-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQ- QfitsZModelQ3aAccordQ7cYearQ3a2006QQhashZitem20b4d5d72cQQitemZ140472866604QQptZM- otorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
This just took a whole lot longer to write than it did for me to actually remove and clean the PCV Valve in my CRV. Just my cheap old guy way of keeping up with maintenance. Good luck.
That's for sure! I think it took about two minutes (including opening and closing the hood) to change the PCV valve in my Escort.
Tamu, if the system is clogged due to a bad PCV valve, it will cause pressurization inside the engine. You can probably test this just by loosening the oil filler cap or pulling out the oil dipstick a little either while the engine is running or immediately after shutting it off. If there is pressure, you can hear it escape as the seal is broken. At least, I could on my Escort - its filler is on the top of the head.