Shifty, You say there is no real world stats for conventional vs synthetic? Make your own.
Try running your favorite conventional oil at the 7500,15,000, 20,000 ,25,000 intervals! Then do the same for the synthetics.
I dont have a lick of problem at 15,000 mile intervals. Reasonably, do you think you would say the same for conventional oils?
I mean really even the manufacturer's when oil changes are on THEIR nickel or otherwise, have gone to "extended" oil changes (10-15k) on MB 320's the dealer is adamant about not changing oil before 15k. Of course not so adamant if you do it on YOUR nickel. I would also cite the Corvette, but you don't consider that a real car.
By the way the oil analysis ARE and have ALWAYS been trend analysis! They have been used for years in the jet engine industry for YEARS (27 that I am personally familiar with)
But in the process of evaluating trends you can make a whole host of objective and subjective judgements.
We all are consumers in one way or another. The bottom line is that 3-5k changes for a term of 100,000 will let the engine run just perfectly, so will synthetic oil at the same change intervals. The other truth which you do not believe is so can 15,000 mile oil changes with synthetic.
Mr Shiftright ranks fairly high on the list of automobile knowledgeable people that post here at Edmunds.
All he's asked for was some non-biased, quantifiable proof that synthetic claims are valid.
Rather than bickering, why doesn't someone respond?
I personally use synthetic for 2 reasons: 1) I'm more comfortable fudging a little on the change interval during the winter months (I really don't like laying under my vehicle in January - and I don't trust taking it to someone else)
and 2) It appears to me that manufacturers put more of their research into their synthetics. Maybe this isn't a valid point.
What I do know is that oil changes are an insignificant part of the cost of owning and driving a vehicle. So unless someone can categorically show synthetics are worse than dino, I'm willing to risk it and spend the extra amount, even if its a waste.
No one person or company is willing to test two cars and run them until they drop, one with dino at 3,000 mile changes and one with synthetic at 15,000 mile changes. So all we get is anecdotal evidence and let's not waste time arguing about which is better for the average driver. Since personal experience is believed to be invalid due to non scientific methods and bias we must go on what we feel comfortable with and what we can afford.
There are no independently sponsored tests, are all either non scientific or sponsored by the oil manufacturer!!! So, let's live with that and go on. I started by going 3,000 and gradually building up (via oil analysis) to the 15,000 mile mark.
If I may ask your indulgence, why would a MAJOR oil company do a study that would show that it could sell 3 to 5 times LESS product????? Wouldn't you want one that shows that you could sell 3-5 times MORE product?
Actually, Amsoil has made the push to independent garages that they can make more money on oil changes by using their XL7500 oil and extending intervals on customers to 7,500. They can get more cars in for work (oil changes are not very lucrative to full service garages) as they are not cluttered with 3,000 mile changes, make as much on an oil change as with dino and have more bay space for more expensive repairs. Not sure if the concept is working but I questioned my local mechanic and he stated that they do way too many oil changes and would love to cut down and free up time for true automotive repairs.. But, few people willing to pay the price of synthetics.
I don't disagree at all! The cost to produce synthetics is app the same as conventional. It also goes without saying that synthetics cost between 3-4 x the normal conventional oil. Since the average value added shop has a small markup on product, the claim to fame is the labor charged. the last time the dealer changed my synthetic oil the bill was for 18 bucks. Even at 70 bucks an hr, no body was going to retire on that job that day.
If this were the "Total Believers in Synthetic Oils" discussion, I'd be glad to butt out. But this was started as a discussion of the merits/demerits of synthetic oil vs. regular oil. So I'm posing the questions one might ask before putting these oils in very expensive modern engines. Seems reasonable enough to me. No.?
Anyway, so far all I've read as counterarguments to the eternal Why Use Synthetic Oil in a Normal Everyday Car? question seems to be this:
1. You change the oil less frequently but at greater expense. (I'll agree to that--your point!)
2. There is an oil company conspiracy keeping this miracle from the stupid public. (I don't believe in this conspiracy any more than the "200 mile per gallon" carburator conspiracy of years ago...remember that one?)
3. Cars using regular oils can only expect 100K or so from their engines (This I disagree with completely)
This is not very compelling evidence for jumping to synthetic. Can't anyone do better here?
Point us to, perhaps, a government test on synthetic superiority in military vehicles? A private fleet report using "control" vehicles to test regular and synthetic side by side? (This is not, by the way, the same as an Oil Analysis program, since oil analysis may in and of itself, without synthetic oil, cut maintenance costs) I have NO problem with Oil Analysis in fleet work!
Can't a consumer ask for more facts? How does Colgate give me whiter, brighter teeth than Pepsodent? Why does Drano unplug 17% more drains than Liquid Plumber. How did we get 17%? Why not 12%
Or do we just buy the toothpaste and drain cleaner and trust the manufacturer?
I'll respond even though as armtdm has said it's pointless because you ask questions-get answere, and then make your points without digesting the information. You ask for information regarding the examples of the benefits of syn oil. Reread my post (#845). Hint: these are facts as verified by SAE. I mentioned that the parts came up to specifications for N-E-W parts. Upon rereading my post I did not say they would last forever (your words). Another fact which you chose to ignore is that no (no) no conventional oil was able to pass the IIIE Sequence test for 128 hours. I'dont see a whole lot of cars on the road with 200K and if I do I'm guessing the engine has been rebuilt if it used conv. oil. BTW engines BMW in particular went 1,000,000 (thats one million) miles with Mobil 1. Engine and all- no rebuild. Can you give me a real world test for that??
Your last points:
1. "You change the oil less frequently but at greater expense. (I'll agree to that--your point!)"
If I change oil less often and it costs $10 per year more and I get better milage and save time in the process. I guess thats greater expense???? Got me there.
2. "There is an oil company conspiracy keeping this miracle from the stupid public. (I don't believe in this conspiracy any more than the "200 mile per gallon" carburator conspiracy of years ago...remember that one?)
Who brought that up??? Are you arguing with yourself???- Whatever. If I missed this you got me again. I never said it though.
3. "Cars using regular oils can only expect 100K or so from their engines (This I disagree with completely)."
Who said that????????? armdtm said : "Any engine will last 100,000 plus miles with crap for oil and a crap filter if you change it every 3,000 miles!!!!!!!!" He did not say an engine could not run longer on conv. oil.
Arguing with yourself again eh.??
ruking1,, are you serious about this statement????? : "I don't disagree at all! The cost to produce synthetics is app the same as conventional." Do you know how syn oil is made?? Guess not.
Mr. Shiftright: O.K you can now respond (without digesting this information)
I think that we can agree that most cars, as total units, are done by approximately 150,000 miles. True there are some who go to 200,000 but they aren't a significant number(IMHO). Most of the cars that leave the road don't leave it because of engine failure, but for other reasons; usually a multitude of small nonengine related problems that cumulatively make the car more trouble to keep on the road than it's worth. When was the last time you heard of a car being scrapped solely because of engine wear problems that were oil related?
What's the advantage of keeping the engine alive longer than the rest of the car? Synthetic oil won't prevent body rust, or worn CV joints or worn out wheel bearings, or failing electronics or worn out transmissions.
There was a similar situation in Home Stereos about 20 years ago. There was a battle over total harmonic distortion (THD) values. However, once the values were below the audible level, improvements in the values were actually meaningless.
The same is true of synthetic oils. Sure, they're probably better, but if dino oils do a perfectly good job that will keep the engine alive for the life of the total car (and they do) what's the extra added value received?
It's like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin..
This is the syn board. You don't use syn on the body of a car dude. I also have figured out that putting it in the crankcase will not extend the body life. IMHO this board should be for those who want information about syn oil or contribute information on the subject.. But, what the hey... it's a free country. We can debate and argue about unrelated things here too.
You gain no value from it because you're going to still scrap the car at the same point in time you would have even if you didn't use synthetic oil. Engine wear is not the determining factor in scrapping most cars
Let me know if I need to make it even simpler for you....
Personally, I am using synthetic oil for the first reason mostly. It cost a bit more, I waste my time less often.
Prices:
5 quarts of std. brand-name oil @$1.50 = $7.50 1 filter @ $3 total ~$10 every 3 months.
5 quarts of Mobil-1 @ $4.50 = $22.50 1 Pure One filter @ $6 total about $30 every 6 months.
Extra costs: - $20 per year; Benefits: about 1-2 hours per year. Additional benefit: somewhat better starting during the winter season.
As you can see, this is small potatoes. Neither saving nor benefits deserve so profound discussion.
I am afraid to lose all the time saved on synthetic, and than some more, on reading the discussion. Practically no new information, everything is discussed again and again.
A little background (tho he sorta goes into it in the first part)...phil owns a roadster and is an engineer at NASA. His field of specialty is lubricants. I don't think you can get much more knowledgable on the subject than that. with that in mind... pay heed to what he has to say about synth oils:
Part 1: Today's topic seams to be motor oil related. I am a NASA Engineer at Marshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. My field of work is Tribology which is the study of friction, wear, and lubrication. In our spare time, our group collects and tests different motor oils using the Shell Four Ball tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties of oils. These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic bases oils to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. We test the oils new, after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 miles. In a nut shell, we found that synthetic oils have better wear properties after being run 10,000 miles then mineral grade oils new. Which synthetic do we use? First any you will benefit from any synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts more research dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also aggressive in racing. Other notes on motor oils.
Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy found this out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory with Mobil 1 and owners brought them back because of smoking and oil consumption (rings did not seat). Run a good single weight oil for the first 2000 miles. We found Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil - in fact we use it for our standard.
The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you get what you pay for.
I know there are a lot of questions on motor oils. You can e-mail me for more information or search the web for more details on synthetics. Your Roadster deserves the best - run synthetic oils.
Phil 1966 1600 SPL311-002500 Keep it between the lines and in a four wheel drift
I have received a lot of comments on oils, so I will try and cover some the concerns/comments.
I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is for the junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name brand oil will last 3000 miles without too much break down. This is for mineral grade oils - synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests for ratings without adding thickeners like polymer chains.
Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to 170,000 miles on them without any more oil consumption them normal. I believe that you will get a slight increase in consumption in older motors because the synthetic are very slippery and can get by old rings easier. In these cases going to a 15w-50 may help, but this is not a reason not to use synthetics. Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a synthetic will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil viscosity is DRASTICALLY REDUCED.
A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be done in your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a quart of a synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup and stick in the freezer over night. In the morning try and pour the oils out. Next test: DO THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put a ? of the synthetic oil in an old frying pan and put it on the stove on the highest heat setting. Cook for 30 minutes. Now cook your oil for 30 minutes. At this point you will see why you cooked the synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to see the changes in viscosity between the oils.
Part 3 on oil additive coming soon. I need to back to NASA work.
Phil 66 1600 Hey all -
The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. As a side at work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test rig. This tester was developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear properties of motor oils - cams, piston skirts etc. It consists of three, = inch balls held in a triangular pattern in a cup with oil heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is lowered to the center of the three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is then rotated 600 RPM for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured on the three stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme wear property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. We use this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so we have a large data base.
Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 inches. New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a lot of difference, but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear scar of .020 inches and Mobil 1
Sorry about the above! This forum sure screws up the formating on a cut and paste job! Go to acura-cl.com and look for the post on syntheic oil posted on 2/16/01 for the good version.
I own a 2000 MB E320 which has FSS (Flexible Scheduled Service) which is basically a computer that tells you when you need to bring in the vehicle for service which ranges from 10k to 12k miles or so. MB picks up the tab for the service as part of free scheduled maintanance. Recently MB has adopted a new policy (which they sent out letters to all dealers and customers whose cars has FSS) that the cars when brought in for service they highly recommend MB approved synthetic, which are Castrol, Mobil 1, and some other major brands synthetics. So MB must have realized that there is a reason for using synthetic for such a long interval. Heck they are picking up the tab. My Chrysler van with 102k miles I will continue to use regular Mobil dino oil and regular filter every 3k miles. My Lexus and MB deserves nothing but the best. Mobil 1 and Pure One.
Mr. Shift does have a point though that most people do not need synthetic. You see Hondas and Toyotas everywhere with high mileage and never had synthetic before. Very true. I respect his opinions. But spending this much on cars, it makes me feel much better to have synthetic.
I think I understand,thanks, but I'll try to make it simplier for you... We...don't...use...syn....oil. ...on...car...bodies....and...I....realize.... thaaat... the....engine....wil....outlast...the... carrr...with....syn....oilll in... the... motorrr...
dgsg...great post but you are using real life examples. Wait a minute that's what they wanted...not really sure. Anyway, I am familiar with the theory (also being an engineer) about ring seating. 'Vette still uses it and I'm not aware of the official restrictions. Same for AMG, Viper, Porsh' high performance cars come with factory fill- I have been told that this applies for run-in also. Discussed the issue with Mobil. Man said rings are seated within 20 miles to the extent they need to be. We'll see. I put it in my new Sentra at 35 miles. After 650 miles no oil consumption and clear oil-something seated.
The other point is if you are not going to keep a car long less than 100k say, why change oil anymore than you have to? Given a 15k interval you will change it 7 times as opposed to 34 times.
A BMW with 1,000,000 miles? A NASA engineer? What does that have to do with us in the real world? I have never seen ANY car in the real world with 1,000,000,000 miles, in 35 years of looking at LOTS (and I mean LOTS) of cars through journalism, appraisals, museum visits, auctions. The highest mileage car shown in the Guinness Book of Records has had an engine rebuild at 400K or so. You can look it up.
Anyway, the reason I liked the NY Taxi test was this:
1. It was a real world test by a private enterprise (no oil company presenting their own results on their own product).
2. There was a "blind control" of cars not using synthetic run side by side with the synthetic cars.
3. All the cars were run under identical conditions.
The results from engine tear-downs were, as I mentioned, that there was no appreciable, real-world measurement difference in engine wear.
What does that mean?
It seems to show that lab tests can be absolutely true and yet not matter. Which is my (current) position on synthetic.
Synthetic IS better than regular oil.
You CAN change your oil less frequently with synthetic.
Synthetic DOES withstand extremes of temperature better than regular (which is why I use it)
And last, for engine longevity in a street car (like a taxi), it doesn't seem to much matter if you use it or you don't.
Do any of you remember when radial tires first came out from Europe? Americans manufacturers resisted them mightily until American consumers demanded them. The reason American consumers demanded them is because they could see and feel and test the real benefits of radials over bias-ply in the real world. The superiority of radials was apparent to anyone who would test them...you didn't have to be a NASA engineer to know this.
And this is why synthetic is not used by most consumers, and why most won't ever use it. The benefits are transparent and inaccessible to the average driver.
I think you may be missing my point. I am not denying the benefits of synthetic at all...I BELIEVE YOU ALL! All I'm saying is that is doesn't much affect your average car one way or the other, and the evidence sits out there in every highway....cars on regular oil run a long, long, time
In today's busy time constrained world, time is more valuable then money I love playing with the cars but changing oil is a messy endeavor that I prefer not to do if I can wax the car instead. I maintain 5 cars between kids etc. and changing the oil once a year is one tremendous benefit over changing each one of those suckers every 3,000 miles. That is the primary reason I use synthetics. It gives me more time. Even if you go to a quick lube it is 30-60 min of your precious time to do every 3,000 miles. Plus, I firmly beleive it provides the extra layer of protection. That's what floats my boat on synthetics!
Particularly here in Dallas where the air temp is often over 100 (89 straight days last summer) and you can sit in traffic for a half hour at a time.
I like knowing that those high heat conditions won't mean that I will have to go to shorter change intervals since the synthetic won't break down.... in theory....
The only thing that I disagree with is the idea that you are gaining something in terms of meaningful extended engine life.
In my case I have to disagree with you. Our 96 Chrysler minivan has 102k on it now. New brakes all around, new exhaust, fluids and filters changed regularly, body has no rust and looks very good condition. Still cruise on the highway at 90mph easily. Engine runs very good. But will the engine outlast the car? I dunno in this case.
that I'm aware of is the CU test which pitted different price conventional oils against and found no meaningful difference. Only one car had syn and unfortunately the car broke down due to a non oil related problem and no syn data was used. The test only consisted of 50,000 miles. Please give me details on the test you are referring to (I want to read it). I think you are mistaken on your information. Again to those of you who like changing oil frequently and saving $10 per year, I say: Go for it. I have better things to do with my time. To those of you who want the engine to outlast the body of the vehicle and save time changing oil: use the syn.
As far as I can remember, the NY taxi test was flawed because the engines were never turned off and were always idling when not in use. That does not represent the real world where the average car is subjected to cold starts. And because the oil was always hot, no moisture or other contaminants had time to build up. For me that test proved nothing. The only meaningful test will be when the same model cars filled with different oils are driven by the Joe Soaps of the world and, after 100,000 miles, measurements are taken.
I have a 92 Camry (130,000+ hi) and 98 Sienna (34,000+). I read a post that these vehicles have a high tendency to have sludge. Have been using Mobil 1 10W-30 sythetic oil and Mobil 1 oil filters on both ( since about 70K (Camry) and when the Sienna was purchased) and change oil at 3000-3500 mi. But around 1500 mi after the oil/filter change on both my vehicles, the oil turns to a very dark color color.
Questions: 1. Is this normal? (Oil is still good? ) 2. Does this happen to you also? 3. Do I need to change my oil/I and filter at 1500 i. 4. Will I need to worry about sludge? ( No build-up under the oil cap)
Loyola, I woundn't worry about it. I also use Mobil 1 10W-30 and it also turns dark. I'm using it in an engine that has only done 10,000 miles. Just be glad the detergent in the oil is doing its job and cleaning your engine. Don't change the oil and filter at 1500 miles - that's just a waste. And seeing as the oil is doing its job I wouldn't worry about sludge. I'd worry about an oil that remained clean between oil changes. When you drain it the sludge is left in your engine and not is not carried off by the oil.
I appreciate your comments and level-headedness in this discussion.
I change my own oil in the 3 cars my wife and I drive. 98 Isuzu Trooper gets Castrol Syntec Blend or Valvoline Durablend 5W-30, 95 Ford Contour gets Mobil1 5W-30 synthetic, and 98 Mitsu Galant gets Valvoline 5W-30 dino oil.
I agree with most of what Mr. Shiftright has had to say recently. Shifty's post #870 summed up all of the opinions in at least the last 150 posts, all in a single post.
If the people who really believe in using synthetic oil were to be totally honest, I think they would acknowledge that cost savings is a very minor factor, or no factor at all, in why they use synthetic oil. C'mon, folks, you use it because you like having the best protection in your vehicles, you enjoy the feeling that this gives you, you enjoy talking about why this approach is better than 3k dino change intervals, and because it enables you to change the oil less often. There is nothing wrong with that. But I think you're misrepresenting your feelings if you say that saving money is a big reason why you use synthetic oil. In fact, I would even guess that many synthetic oil users would still use synthetic even if the change interval they were comfortable with was in the 5,000-7,500 mile range.
I am putting Mobil1 in my 95 Ford Contour for a couple reasons: 1) previous owner used it. 2) Contour.org board has convinced me that the 2.5L V6 in these cars benefits from its use (or added protection levels) 3) I don't mind paying the extra money for synthetic. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't try to get anywhere near 7,500 miles or more out of the synthetic oil. Last change was at a 3,600 mile interval. I plan to keep it around 5,000 mile intervals.
I guess what I'm getting at is that comparisons of dino vs. synthetic costs using a 3,000 mile dino interval and a 7,500 to 10,000 mile synthetic interval seem a little distorted. Many people go 4k or 5k or even 7.5k miles on dino oil. (These "regular" people are taking care of their cars just fine, and probably are not reducing the useful life of their engines, IMO.) And I'm willing to bet that plenty of synthetic users change their oil every 5k or so. If you change the intervals used in any dino vs. synthetic cost comparisons, the "cost savings" of using synthetic quickly disappear.
I don't like the assertion that most people using dino oil are, and should be, changing it every 3,000 miles.
I don't think it is that much more expensive to use the synthetic. (And I've posted this on contour.org BTW)
My SVT takes about 6 quarts, plus a filter.
If dino-oil is $1.50/quart, and Mobil1 is $4.50, and assuming change intervals of 3K for dino and 5K for M1 (that's what I do)
There here is the cost over 5K miles:
Synthetic each change: Oil 6 x $4.50 = $27.00 Filter $5.00 5.00
Total $32.00
Dino Oil each change: Oil 6 x $1.50 = $9.00 Filter $5.00 5.00
Total $14.00
But I have to do 1.67 changes of dino during 5K miles, so the cost of materials is $23.38
But I have to use an extra hour to do this. My time is worth more than $9/hour, so I don't feel there is really an outrageous extra cost.
But, if I were truely cost sensitive, I could probably extend the synthetic to almost 7K or 7.5K and come out ahead, materials cost wise, using synthetic.
I think you have to define cost saving. To me it is the entire amount that I save in the use of a vehicle. This includes gasoline, repair, and vehicle replacement costs. In my opinion syn oil has the potential to impact all of these. Again- cost of the oil- chump change. As I said before anyone who is worried about the actual cost of the oil needs to stick to dino oil. Better yet- don't drive at all and you'll save thousands of dollars a year.
Since I do use extended drains I can place a value on time, clean up and oil disposal. Time and hassle are definitely worth something! And yes, I would still use the stuff if it were $10/quart. I also like Michelin tires in place of Firestone, quality is quality and it comes with a price. I could get by with cheap tires and oil but as I have found out via too many years on this planet, cheap is not alway the best in the long run, may work or appear to work fine but when you hit those unexpected bumps in the road, shoulders of an overheated engine, you want the best
I think I've asked this question before, but I am about to change oil and wanted info...if anyone can help. I use Mobil 1 10w30. The temp. where I live never gets below 15 deg. However, I sometime travel to locations where the temp. drops to 0 or so. Someone posted that using 5w30 vs. 10w30 may increase gas mileage a little.
1. Will I benifit from using 5w30 vs. 10w30.
2. My truck doesn't use a drop of oil now....will switching wgts possibly change that.
3. Will the thinner oil increase chances of leaks....(the truck had been used for about 26k miles on conv. oil before I got it).
Please forgive me if these same questions were already asked......thanks guys....
Either will be no problem. I doubt if you would see any increase in consumption or leaks. I have a 94 and swith back and forth (for no reason). If you want to micro manage things: If you do mostly short trips (less than 15 miles) the 10W will give a little better wear protection. But like I said- makes little difference. I would just go with what the oil fill cap and manual says.
I have a 2001 Honda accord. The only oil recommended for this engine is 5W20. I live in Dallas, Texas where summer temperature frequently exceed 100 degrees in the summer and am concern that 5W20 will not hold up at high temperatures. I am thinking of switching to synthetic but have not seen any 5W20. Does anyone make a 5W20 Synthetic oil??
Even the dino is hard to locate. I keep asking my Amsoil jobber if they are going to produce any but no word as yet. I have never seen a 5W20 on a shelf. If engine manufactured for it then probably okay. Does it list alternatives?
Honda and Ford are on a 5w20 kick to increase gas mileage to improve CAFE. The 2001 Accord rates 1 mpg higher. This volume seller really does a lot to help raise the average. Now, does it hurt the long term durability of the engine. Well, if it does then damage not evident until over 100k when most ext warranties will be over. I feel Honda is sacrificing longevity for CAFE standard. I have no proof, but 5w30 was recommended oil for years. Despite that most OK dealers use 10w30 due to climate. Now comes 5W20 which is thinner summer weight! Yikes, can anyone explain this. I have 01 Accord and need to change oil. All I found was Motorcraft 5w20 at Walmart. Honda owners manual unusually adamant about 5w20, 5w30 a short term substitute and 10w30 not recommended now at all. Any ideas? I guess syn 5w20 will be out once large number of these cars make it profitable. INKY
I believe that inky is correct in his theory. And since Ford is part of it, I'm even more suspicious. They have enough problems with the reliability of their cars as it is. But anyway- and this may be bad advice. I would (If it were me) switch to Mobil 1 5W30 in a heartbeat. Inky the 5 in the 5W30 is the viscosity at ambient conditions (I believe 100 F) and the 30 is the viscosity at 200 F the W means it is tested for winter conditions.
AND, we have to be talking CATASTROPHIC failure here. The delaer must prove the use of a weight other then 5W20 specifically caused the failure. A catastophic failure due to the use of 5W30 is extremely unlikely. Maybe long term engine wear but catastrophic, doubt it!
1. We will be seeing every manufacturer going to 5w20 within the next five years. Yes it may help an insignificant amount in mileage, but the reason is tighter tolerances on the engines. Just like a pump will wear out faster if it pumps mud instead of water, an engine will wear long with a thinner oil as long as the oil is capable of providing the required lubricating demands. It is a situation of two technologies merging, better oils with finer tolerance milling. That Honda and Ford are saying that their engines are built to such tolerances says good things about their construction. Yes it it is a pain to find the oil at first, but within the year it should be more common. 2. I made the switch because I wanted to extend my service interval. Dino oil would cost me $92/year for materials, synthetic $95. However, since I don't have the time to do my own changes, I can save $36/yr with synthetic and have less than half as many times to worry about some yahoo making a mistake.
perfect their current technology before they go to something "new" As an engineer I know this "better milling" is BS. Bearings need a specific amount of clearance which is dependent on speed and viscosity to operate (Big end, small end rod and main bearings. This is where the buld of the friction mostly occurs. Milling is not an issue here. Rings have contact friction and finish is the issue. Everyone has micro finishing. This is not rocket science. It's about lighter oils, less fluid friction. The basic two types of lubrication are boundary and full film. Full film is where you have parts not touching at all. Boundary is where the parts are touching sometimes. Its all a balancing act. Ford has just concluded they can cut down fluid friction which will increase milage. We(I) know nothing of the wear involved to accomplish this. I'm not sure Ford really cares as long as warranty claims are acceptable. We shall see. We'll see if anyone follows Ford. GM hasn't so far.
What I call full film is the same term as you used. Not quite so fancy. Whats your take on the 5W20, alcan? I'd be interested. Even though there will be no more Fords in my driveway. (not running down those who own them though)
I have enjoyed reading all of the posts here on synthetic oils. I have used castrol syntec and pennzoil synthetic in the past before switching to mobil 1 exclusively the last 3 years or so. no problems to speak of.
I found your comment on fords refreshing... instead of insulting any one who chooses to drive them, I simply noted an implication(perhaps) of your prior bad experiences with them.
while I have fords in my driveway(my wife would never part with her gt convert), I will never have another gm product in mine, but have nothing against anyone who prefers them.
my escort commuter will be replaced with a Honda civic in the future. nothing against escorts, I just would like to try a Honda.
see you,
lee
ps. geez whats with this spell check? it will bite you if you are not careful....
You are right. I have bad experiences 2.3L Pinto. Thats the vehicle where the clearances in the engine weren't right and you had to use Ford oil....it went on and on. Ford Ranger.....But anyway- I think anytime you get screwed you don't come back. Since you are looking right now. Check out Nissan Sentra. I just bought one after a whole look of looking. The SE is an unbelivable car for the money. Unfortunately mine has already been through an auto trans with the "check" engine light. Honda's are definately up there. Sever al friends I know own different models. Never heard a bad work over 20 years about them.
I have been using the Mobil 1 for a long time now and I have had real luck with it. I think all those "real world" tests where there was "almost" no wear in a number of 50,000 mile and 200,000 mile tests convinced me to switch. Two trips to Micky D's pays for the diffference in cost.
If I had a 2001 Honda or Ford I'd be torn between using the Motorcraft 5W20 (until oil mfrs start coming out with their own ... I heard Castrol and Quaker State will have 5W20 soon) for at least the first year or two if not the entire time the car's under warranty.
Although, I had someone forward me the text out of the manual and 5W20 is RECOMMENDED but they never said anything about it being mandatory. So, no voided warranty if you take a slightly different road.
Another option might be synthetics. I'd be willing to bet that Mobil 1 0W30 or any other mfrs 5W30 would be thin enough to ensure that any plumbing changes would be unaffected by using the 'heavier weight' oil.
Once the car had 40,000-50,000 miles on it and/or I lived down south where it's quite warm all the time, I'd switch to a heavier oil like 5W30 or 10W30.
The likelihood of a situation occurring in which 5W20 is required by the manufacturer but not used by the customer during required-interval oil changes, engine failure occurs during the warranty period, and the dealer concludes the cause is improper oil weight is so slim that I would not worry about it.
Comments
You say there is no real world stats for conventional vs synthetic? Make your own.
Try running your favorite conventional oil at the 7500,15,000, 20,000 ,25,000 intervals! Then do the same for the synthetics.
I dont have a lick of problem at 15,000 mile intervals. Reasonably, do you think you would say the same for conventional oils?
I mean really even the manufacturer's when oil changes are on THEIR nickel or otherwise, have gone to "extended" oil changes (10-15k) on
MB 320's the dealer is adamant about not changing oil before 15k. Of course not so adamant if you do it on YOUR nickel. I would also cite the Corvette, but you don't consider that a real car.
By the way the oil analysis ARE and have ALWAYS been trend analysis! They have been used for years in the jet engine industry for YEARS (27 that I am personally familiar with)
But in the process of evaluating trends you can make a whole host of objective and subjective judgements.
We all are consumers in one way or another. The bottom line is that 3-5k changes for a term of 100,000 will let the engine run just perfectly, so will synthetic oil at the same change intervals. The other truth which you do not believe is so can 15,000 mile oil changes with synthetic.
All he's asked for was some non-biased, quantifiable proof that synthetic claims are valid.
Rather than bickering, why doesn't someone respond?
I personally use synthetic for 2 reasons:
1) I'm more comfortable fudging a little on the change interval during the winter months (I really don't like laying under my vehicle in January - and I don't trust taking it to someone else)
and 2) It appears to me that manufacturers put more of their research into their synthetics. Maybe this isn't a valid point.
What I do know is that oil changes are an insignificant part of the cost of owning and driving a vehicle. So unless someone can categorically show synthetics are worse than dino, I'm willing to risk it and spend the extra amount, even if its a waste.
There are no independently sponsored tests, are all either non scientific or sponsored by the oil manufacturer!!! So, let's live with that and go on. I started by going 3,000 and gradually building up (via oil analysis) to the 15,000 mile mark.
I think you may be asking for the impossible.
If I may ask your indulgence, why would a MAJOR oil company do a study that would show that it could sell 3 to 5 times LESS product????? Wouldn't you want one that shows that you could sell 3-5 times MORE product?
I don't disagree at all! The cost to produce synthetics is app the same as conventional. It also goes without saying that synthetics cost between 3-4 x the normal conventional oil. Since the average value added shop has a small markup on product, the claim to fame is the labor charged. the last time the dealer changed my synthetic oil the bill was for 18 bucks. Even at 70 bucks an hr, no body was going to retire on that job that day.
If this were the "Total Believers in Synthetic Oils" discussion, I'd be glad to butt out. But this was started as a discussion of the merits/demerits of synthetic oil vs. regular oil. So I'm posing the questions one might ask before putting these oils in very expensive modern engines. Seems reasonable enough to me. No.?
Anyway, so far all I've read as counterarguments to the eternal Why Use Synthetic Oil in a Normal Everyday Car? question seems to be this:
1. You change the oil less frequently but at greater expense. (I'll agree to that--your point!)
2. There is an oil company conspiracy keeping this miracle from the stupid public. (I don't believe in this conspiracy any more than the "200 mile per gallon" carburator conspiracy of years ago...remember that one?)
3. Cars using regular oils can only expect 100K or so from their engines (This I disagree with completely)
This is not very compelling evidence for jumping to synthetic. Can't anyone do better here?
Point us to, perhaps, a government test on synthetic superiority in military vehicles? A private fleet report using "control" vehicles to test regular and synthetic side by side? (This is not, by the way, the same as an Oil Analysis program, since oil analysis may in and of itself, without synthetic oil, cut maintenance costs) I have NO problem with Oil Analysis in fleet work!
Can't a consumer ask for more facts? How does Colgate give me whiter, brighter teeth than Pepsodent? Why does Drano unplug 17% more drains than Liquid Plumber. How did we get 17%? Why not 12%
Or do we just buy the toothpaste and drain cleaner and trust the manufacturer?
You ask for information regarding the examples of the benefits of syn oil. Reread my post (#845). Hint: these are facts as verified by SAE. I mentioned that the parts came up to specifications for N-E-W parts. Upon rereading my post I did not say they would last forever (your words). Another fact which you chose to ignore is that no (no) no conventional oil was able to pass the IIIE Sequence test for 128 hours.
I'dont see a whole lot of cars on the road with 200K and if I do I'm guessing the engine has been rebuilt if it used conv. oil. BTW engines BMW in particular went 1,000,000 (thats one million) miles with Mobil 1. Engine and all- no rebuild. Can you give me a real world test for that??
Your last points:
1. "You change the oil less frequently but at greater expense. (I'll agree to that--your point!)"
If I change oil less often and it costs $10 per year more and I get better milage and save time in the process. I guess thats greater expense???? Got me there.
2. "There is an oil company conspiracy keeping this miracle from the stupid public. (I don't believe in this conspiracy any more than the "200 mile per gallon" carburator conspiracy of years ago...remember that one?)
Who brought that up??? Are you arguing with yourself???- Whatever. If I missed this you got me again. I never said it though.
3. "Cars using regular oils can only expect 100K or so from their engines (This I disagree with completely)."
Who said that????????? armdtm said : "Any engine will last 100,000 plus miles with crap for oil and a crap filter if you change it every 3,000 miles!!!!!!!!" He did not say an engine could not run longer on conv. oil.
Arguing with yourself again eh.??
ruking1,, are you serious about this statement????? : "I don't disagree at all! The cost to produce synthetics is app the same as conventional." Do you know how syn oil is made??
Guess not.
Mr. Shiftright: O.K you can now respond (without digesting this information)
Later
Al
What's the advantage of keeping the engine alive longer than the rest of the car? Synthetic oil won't prevent body rust, or worn CV joints or worn out wheel bearings, or failing electronics or worn out transmissions.
There was a similar situation in Home Stereos about 20 years ago. There was a battle over total harmonic distortion (THD) values. However, once the values were below the audible level, improvements in the values were actually meaningless.
The same is true of synthetic oils. Sure, they're probably better, but if dino oils do a perfectly good job that will keep the engine alive for the life of the total car (and they do) what's the extra added value received?
It's like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin..
Later
You gain no value from it because you're going to still scrap the car at the same point in time you would have even if you didn't use synthetic oil. Engine wear is not the determining factor in scrapping most cars
Let me know if I need to make it even simpler for you....
Prices:
5 quarts of std. brand-name oil @$1.50 = $7.50
1 filter @ $3
total ~$10 every 3 months.
5 quarts of Mobil-1 @ $4.50 = $22.50
1 Pure One filter @ $6
total about $30 every 6 months.
Extra costs: - $20 per year;
Benefits: about 1-2 hours per year.
Additional benefit: somewhat better starting during the winter season.
As you can see, this is small potatoes. Neither saving nor benefits deserve so profound discussion.
I am afraid to lose all the time saved on synthetic, and than some more, on reading the discussion. Practically no new information, everything is discussed again and again.
A little background (tho he sorta goes into it in the first part)...phil
owns a roadster and is an engineer at NASA. His field of specialty is
lubricants. I don't think you can get much more knowledgable on the subject
than that. with that in mind... pay heed to what he has to say about synth
oils:
Demon ______________________________________________
Part 1: Today's topic seams to be motor oil related. I am a NASA Engineer at
Marshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. My field of work is
Tribology which is the study of friction, wear, and lubrication. In our
spare time, our group collects and tests different motor oils using the
Shell Four Ball tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties of
oils. These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to
guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic bases oils
to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. We test the oils new,
after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 miles. In a nut shell, we
found that synthetic oils have better wear properties after being run 10,000
miles then mineral grade oils new. Which synthetic do we use? First any you
will benefit from any synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts more
research dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also
aggressive in racing. Other notes on motor oils.
Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added
friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy found this
out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory with Mobil 1 and
owners brought them back because of smoking and oil consumption (rings did
not seat). Run a good single weight oil for the first 2000 miles. We found
Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil - in fact we use it for our standard.
The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the
additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in
suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you get what
you pay for.
I know there are a lot of questions on motor oils. You can e-mail me for
more information or search the web for more details on synthetics. Your
Roadster deserves the best - run synthetic oils.
Phil 1966 1600 SPL311-002500 Keep it between the lines and in a four wheel
drift
I have received a lot of comments on oils, so I will try and cover some the
concerns/comments.
I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is for the
junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name brand oil will last
3000 miles without too much break down. This is for mineral grade oils -
synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests for ratings without adding
thickeners like polymer chains.
Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to 170,000
miles on them without any more oil consumption them normal. I believe that
you will get a slight increase in consumption in older motors because the
synthetic are very slippery and can get by old rings easier. In these cases
going to a 15w-50 may help, but this is not a reason not to use synthetics.
Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a synthetic
will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil viscosity is DRASTICALLY
REDUCED.
A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be done in
your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a quart of a
synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup and stick in the
freezer over night. In the morning try and pour the oils out. Next test: DO
THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put a ? of the synthetic oil in an old
frying pan and put it on the stove on the highest heat setting. Cook for 30
minutes. Now cook your oil for 30 minutes. At this point you will see why
you cooked the synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to see the
changes in viscosity between the oils.
Part 3 on oil additive coming soon. I need to back to NASA work.
Phil 66 1600 Hey all -
The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. As a side at
work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test rig. This tester was
developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear properties of motor oils -
cams, piston skirts etc. It consists of three, = inch balls held in a
triangular pattern in a cup with oil heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is
lowered to the center of the three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is
then rotated 600 RPM for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured
on the three stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme
wear property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. We use
this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so we have a large
data base.
Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 inches.
New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a lot of difference,
but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear scar of .020 inches and
Mobil 1
Mr. Shift does have a point though that most people do not need synthetic. You see Hondas and Toyotas everywhere with high mileage and never had synthetic before. Very true. I respect his opinions. But spending this much on cars, it makes me feel much better to have synthetic.
...on...car...bodies....and...I....realize....
thaaat... the....engine....wil....outlast...the...
carrr...with....syn....oilll in... the... motorrr...
dgsg...great post but you are using real life examples. Wait a minute that's what they wanted...not really sure. Anyway, I am familiar with the theory (also being an engineer) about ring seating. 'Vette still uses it and I'm not aware of the official restrictions. Same for AMG, Viper, Porsh' high performance cars come with factory fill- I have been told that this applies for run-in also. Discussed the issue with Mobil. Man said rings are seated within 20 miles to the extent they need to be. We'll see. I put it in my new Sentra at 35 miles. After 650 miles no oil consumption and clear oil-something seated.
Thanks again
Al
The engine will outlast the other elements without using syn oil.....
It's essentially a vanity issue, like those jeans you're wearing with a designer label.
Anyway, the reason I liked the NY Taxi test was this:
1. It was a real world test by a private enterprise (no oil company presenting their own results on their own product).
2. There was a "blind control" of cars not using synthetic run side by side with the synthetic cars.
3. All the cars were run under identical conditions.
The results from engine tear-downs were, as I mentioned, that there was no appreciable, real-world measurement difference in engine wear.
What does that mean?
It seems to show that lab tests can be absolutely true and yet not matter. Which is my (current) position on synthetic.
Synthetic IS better than regular oil.
You CAN change your oil less frequently with synthetic.
Synthetic DOES withstand extremes of temperature better than regular (which is why I use it)
And last, for engine longevity in a street car (like a taxi), it doesn't seem to much matter if you use it or you don't.
Do any of you remember when radial tires first came out from Europe? Americans manufacturers resisted them mightily until American consumers demanded them. The reason American consumers demanded them is because they could see and feel and test the real benefits of radials over bias-ply in the real world. The superiority of radials was apparent to anyone who would test them...you didn't have to be a NASA engineer to know this.
And this is why synthetic is not used by most consumers, and why most won't ever use it. The benefits are transparent and inaccessible to the average driver.
I think you may be missing my point. I am not denying the benefits of synthetic at all...I BELIEVE YOU ALL! All I'm saying is that is doesn't much affect your average car one way or the other, and the evidence sits out there in every highway....cars on regular oil run a long, long, time
That's what floats my boat on synthetics!
I like knowing that those high heat conditions won't mean that I will have to go to shorter change intervals since the synthetic won't break down.... in theory....
The only thing that I disagree with is the idea that you are gaining something in terms of meaningful extended engine life.
I read a post that these vehicles have a high tendency
to have sludge. Have been using Mobil 1 10W-30 sythetic oil
and Mobil 1 oil filters on both ( since about 70K (Camry)
and when the Sienna was purchased) and change oil at 3000-3500 mi.
But around 1500 mi after the oil/filter change on both my vehicles, the oil turns to a very dark color color.
Questions: 1. Is this normal? (Oil is still good? )
2. Does this happen to you also?
3. Do I need to change my oil/I and filter at 1500 i.
4. Will I need to worry about sludge? ( No build-up under
the oil cap)
I change my own oil in the 3 cars my wife and I drive. 98 Isuzu Trooper gets Castrol Syntec Blend or Valvoline Durablend 5W-30, 95 Ford Contour gets Mobil1 5W-30 synthetic, and 98 Mitsu Galant gets Valvoline 5W-30 dino oil.
I agree with most of what Mr. Shiftright has had to say recently. Shifty's post #870 summed up all of the opinions in at least the last 150 posts, all in a single post.
I am putting Mobil1 in my 95 Ford Contour for a couple reasons: 1) previous owner used it. 2) Contour.org board has convinced me that the 2.5L V6 in these cars benefits from its use (or added protection levels) 3) I don't mind paying the extra money for synthetic. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't try to get anywhere near 7,500 miles or more out of the synthetic oil. Last change was at a 3,600 mile interval. I plan to keep it around 5,000 mile intervals.
I guess what I'm getting at is that comparisons of dino vs. synthetic costs using a 3,000 mile dino interval and a 7,500 to 10,000 mile synthetic interval seem a little distorted. Many people go 4k or 5k or even 7.5k miles on dino oil. (These "regular" people are taking care of their cars just fine, and probably are not reducing the useful life of their engines, IMO.) And I'm willing to bet that plenty of synthetic users change their oil every 5k or so. If you change the intervals used in any dino vs. synthetic cost comparisons, the "cost savings" of using synthetic quickly disappear.
I don't like the assertion that most people using dino oil are, and should be, changing it every 3,000 miles.
I don't think it is that much more expensive to use the synthetic. (And I've posted this on contour.org BTW)
My SVT takes about 6 quarts, plus a filter.
If dino-oil is $1.50/quart, and Mobil1 is $4.50, and assuming change intervals of 3K for dino and 5K for M1 (that's what I do)
There here is the cost over 5K miles:
Synthetic each change:
Oil 6 x $4.50 = $27.00
Filter $5.00 5.00
Total $32.00
Dino Oil each change:
Oil 6 x $1.50 = $9.00
Filter $5.00 5.00
Total $14.00
But I have to do 1.67 changes of dino during 5K miles, so the cost of materials is $23.38
But I have to use an extra hour to do this. My time is worth more than $9/hour, so I don't feel there is really an outrageous extra cost.
But, if I were truely cost sensitive, I could probably extend the synthetic to almost 7K or 7.5K and come out ahead, materials cost wise, using synthetic.
Cheers,
TB
1. Will I benifit from using 5w30 vs. 10w30.
2. My truck doesn't use a drop of oil now....will switching wgts possibly change that.
3. Will the thinner oil increase chances of leaks....(the truck had been used for about 26k miles on conv. oil before I got it).
Please forgive me if these same questions were already asked......thanks guys....
John
Later,
Al
Any ideas? I guess syn 5w20 will be out once large number of these cars make it profitable.
INKY
Al
Honda Rep: "Lemme see your reciepts on oil changes, you have been using 5W20, haven't you?"
IT WILL VOID YOUR ENGINE WARRANTY!!!!!!
2. I made the switch because I wanted to extend my service interval. Dino oil would cost me $92/year for materials, synthetic $95. However, since I don't have the time to do my own changes, I can save $36/yr with synthetic and have less than half as many times to worry about some yahoo making a mistake.
I have enjoyed reading all of the posts here on synthetic oils. I have used castrol syntec and pennzoil synthetic in the past before switching to mobil 1 exclusively the last 3 years or so. no problems to speak of.
I found your comment on fords refreshing... instead of insulting any one who chooses to drive them, I simply noted an implication(perhaps) of your prior bad experiences with them.
while I have fords in my driveway(my wife would never part with her gt convert), I will never have another gm product in mine, but have nothing against anyone who prefers them.
my escort commuter will be replaced with a Honda civic in the future. nothing against escorts, I just would like to try a Honda.
see you,
lee
ps. geez whats with this spell check? it will bite you if you are not careful....
Honda's are definately up there. Sever al friends I know own different models. Never heard a bad work over 20 years about them.
I have been using the Mobil 1 for a long time now and I have had real luck with it. I think all those "real world" tests where there was "almost" no wear in a number of 50,000 mile and 200,000 mile tests convinced me to switch. Two trips to Micky D's pays for the diffference in cost.
Keep in touch.
Al
Although, I had someone forward me the text out of the manual and 5W20 is RECOMMENDED but they never said anything about it being mandatory. So, no voided warranty if you take a slightly different road.
Another option might be synthetics. I'd be willing to bet that Mobil 1 0W30 or any other mfrs 5W30 would be thin enough to ensure that any plumbing changes would be unaffected by using the 'heavier weight' oil.
Once the car had 40,000-50,000 miles on it and/or I lived down south where it's quite warm all the time, I'd switch to a heavier oil like 5W30 or 10W30.
--- Bror Jace