Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

U.S. Auto Market News and Reviews

1…2223252728…42

Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Depends on the cause of the unsustainability, doesn't it? Upper management isn't going to suffer if the D3 collapse. They win either way. Why punish the victims?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    "Depends on the cause of the unsustainability, doesn't it? Upper management isn't going to suffer if the D3 collapse. They win either way. Why punish the victims? "

    Oh the effects on good people are terrible. We have a problem in our culture where those in charge don't get their proportionate consequences. But still you can't really expect people to stay working forever if it's not a sustainable business. Plenty of other businesses fail and people lose jobs. No reason why auto works should be extra special.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That would certainly be true if one were talking about making rotary dial telephones or mining coal. But cars...you know...is still a highly viable business. There is failure because of "changing times" and there is failure because of gross ineptitude.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    ...and gross ineptitude is certainly what has affected the US nameplates. Ultimately management shoulders that blame, but IMHO the unions bear a lot of the responsibility as well. But we were down that road many times during the bailout discussions.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,407
    I wonder if there are any verifiable/non-anecdotal accounts of union excesses forcing a company to move away from a world beating product and continue on the path of mediocrity (at-best) I have some doubts. I am also amused that some companies with unions as rabid as the untouchable public sector ones here continue to be competitive and relevant. Something else must be different.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think that may difficult to find because things like the jobs bank lounge end up in overhead. Higher overhead rates still suck up cash which may affect spending. Personally, I think today's potential problem for D3 may be recruiting and retaining high quality engineers and other STEM areas. Asia and Germany just seem to do it better frequently.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,063
    I doubt that the unions designed the crappy cars.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    suydam said:

    I doubt that the unions designed the crappy cars.

    Most definitely they did not. However, I'm sure not all of the 1,001 rattles in some cars were designed and engineered features. I'm sure a fair percentage could be attributed to poor assembly as well.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    It seems that US union culture is much more adversarial than other countries. Europe seems to make it work better than we do.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,407
    I suspect European managerial and executive culture is also operated better. No doubt the executive:worker pay ratio is also different.
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,047
    fintail said:

    I suspect European managerial and executive culture is also operated better. No doubt the executive:worker pay ratio is also different.

    That's because there is a union rep on the board of most major European auto makers.

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!


    MODERATOR

    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    US companies sometimes do that as well, and a few even go further with an ESOP, think United Airlines or several of the D3 at times as different levels of examples, but it seldom seems to work out for whatever reasons. I suspect self interest of both leadership in the companies and the unions comes too much into play here maybe,
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,047
    berri said:

    US companies sometimes do that as well, and a few even go further with an ESOP, think United Airlines or several of the D3 at times as different levels of examples, but it seldom seems to work out for whatever reasons. I suspect self interest of both leadership in the companies and the unions comes too much into play here maybe,

    I wouldn't equate the two. There is a union rep on the governing board that has full voting rights, and is privy to all the strategic discussions and decisions that are made.

    ESOP is nice, but shareholder rights aren't going to allow the folks in the factory to have input to strategy.

    I'm not aware of anybody from the UAW being a part of the board at GM, Ford or FCA.

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!


    MODERATOR

    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I was thinking GM and Chrysler did that for awhile during the last crisis and bailout as part of the UAW agreement on transferring health costs. But you are right that it doesn't exist today.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    That's because the problems are all fixed and behind us. Nothing more to worry about. Right? :o
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,047
    tlong said:

    That's because the problems are all fixed and behind us. Nothing more to worry about. Right? :o

    It looks like GM is learning their lessons.

    Chrysler, however, is struggling under their new Italian ownership.

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!


    MODERATOR

    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Domestic products are certainly competitive with foreign makes in most market segments.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,407
    Sadly, they aren't yet as good at building brand equity and cachet. Some (ahem...Chevy "real people") attempts are just cringe-worthy.

    I'd think the biggest worry would be a spike in fuel prices, both for the pressure put on high-selling guzzlers, and the economic downturn that is virtually guaranteed to come with it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm not sure there's much brand loyalty afoot anymore, except perhaps in the very prestigious brands?

    Changes in fuel prices can certainly rock the economy, but I'm not seeing any signs of a big increase in the foreseeable future.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Domestic products are certainly competitive with foreign makes in most market segments.

    Does that include competitiveness in resale value, reliability, durability?

    Subaru & Toyota seem to have decent brand loyalty.

    Two segments that must not fall into "most" are sporty compact cars and sedans, and then of course, luxury models.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "Competitive" doesn't have to mean "equal"--it means "close enough" and yeah, domestics are close enough so that hundreds of thousands of people buy them. They can't all be idiots, especially not in the information age, so they must have their reasons.

    Brand loyalty still exists, of course, but it's nothing like it used to be. You can lure just about anyone away from their "brand" these days if you dangle a good enough deal at them.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,407
    Brand loyalty is a good thing (and not as big as it used to be), but you need the equity and cachet first. If a product is effectively as good as the competition, this needs to be made known, and it is up to the maker to do so.

    One bad foreign policy slip could cause fuel price issues.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well look what Mustang, Camaro and Corvette have done to the exotic sports cars of the world---basically given you 9/10th of the performance for 1/2 the price (or less).
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Well look what Mustang, Camaro and Corvette have done to the exotic sports cars of the world---basically given you 9/10th of the performance for 1/2 the price (or less).

    Camaro ZL1 maybe, but what do those cost? Corvette is great, but man you hear horror stories.
    Mustang GT350 costs what real world?

    Certainly, the gaps are closing. I wonder how many people just buy a car because it is in the dealership closest to their house.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You can find horror stories with any brand if you look for them.
    Ten years ago I would never consider buying an American car. Now I would give it seriously thought (after proper research).

    If nothing else they are much more competent in fuel economy, handling and braking than ever before.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,063
    They are actually out in front in some segments. They were among the first in the CUV game with the Encore, and there's really no equivalent to the Volt and Bolt. And of course the Silverado is one of the all time best in trucks. I can't believe how many 20 year old versions are still out there.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    That's because the problems are all fixed and behind us. Nothing more to worry about. Right? :o
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    "Competitive" doesn't have to mean "equal"--it means "close enough" and yeah, domestics are close enough so that hundreds of thousands of people buy them. They can't all be idiots, especially not in the information age, so they must have their reasons.

    Brand loyalty still exists, of course, but it's nothing like it used to be. You can lure just about anyone away from their "brand" these days if you dangle a good enough deal at them.

    I know that a few years back, if you stripped out fleet sales, the domestics were doing great in SUVs and trucks but relatively fewer people actually chose sedans or hatchbacks from D3 versus import nameplates. I wonder if that has changed at all?
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,063
    tlong said:

    That's because the problems are all fixed and behind us. Nothing more to worry about. Right? :o

    Mr_Shiftright said:

    "Competitive" doesn't have to mean "equal"--it means "close enough" and yeah, domestics are close enough so that hundreds of thousands of people buy them. They can't all be idiots, especially not in the information age, so they must have their reasons.

    Brand loyalty still exists, of course, but it's nothing like it used to be. You can lure just about anyone away from their "brand" these days if you dangle a good enough deal at them.

    I know that a few years back, if you stripped out fleet sales, the domestics were doing great in SUVs and trucks but relatively fewer people actually chose sedans or hatchbacks from D3 versus import nameplates. I wonder if that has changed at all?
    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2017/06/top-20-best-selling-cars-in-america-may.html
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Looks like everybody on that chart is in a bit of a slump from last year.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,181
    I guess my Jag XF would be #21... :p

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    While it may drop dead tomorrow, who knows. But so far I can't complain about my '14 Ram 1500 Laramie. Almost 90k miles and only non routine repair has been a 3rd brake light. Still tight, and runs strung.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Ford sales were down in July 7.4% year over year. GM, 15.4%.

    “We have strategically decided to reduce car production rather than increase incentive spending or dump vehicles into daily rental fleets, like some of our competitors,” Kurt McNeil, head of U.S. sales operations for General Motors, said in a prepared statement.

    But many analysts believe a shift in strategy may be called for.

    “GM needs to consider applying tough-love metrics to some car lines,” said Rebecca Lindland, an analyst at Kelley Blue Book. “The Chevy Colorado midsize pickup truck outsold the Camaro, Impala, Sonic and Spark — combined — in July.”

    Meanwhile, Toyota sales are up 3.6%, and its sedan sales have held up better than most competitors.

    Sedan buyers still exist, of course, and Honda and Toyota are the cream of the crop for mass-market sedans, said Alec Gutierrez, also of Kelley Blue Book. Apparently, the idea that cars from U.S. companies are inferior to Japanese brands, developed for good reason decades ago, continues to haunt Ford and GM, despite enormous gains in quality since then.

    The Ford Fusion and the Chevy Malibu “from a product perspective are just as good as Honda and Toyota,” Gutierrez said. “But the perception isn’t there, and they have to [spend more on] marketing and advertising.”
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited August 2017
    Like I said years ago, the D2.5 isn't going to completely shed the bad reputation it earned in the 80s and 90s until every owner who was tortured by one is legally dead or rendered mute by extreme old age.

    Why do you think Buicks sell so well in China? Because they weren't driving them 30 years ago.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I'll bet those D3 beancounters thought they were saving money in the 80s, 90s, 00s. But sometimes the price comes a lot later, and for a long time.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Like I said years ago, the D2.5 isn't going to completely shed the bad reputation it earned in the 80s and 90s until every owner who was tortured by one is legally dead or rendered mute by extreme old age.

    Why do you think Buicks sell so well in China? Because they weren't driving them 30 years ago.

    I've also read stories that Buick gives China the very best GM has to offer, whereas US Buick models might get cheaper components, parts, trimmings, and more. Sort of like the "police" spec car vs. the junk they sold regular people.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    tlong said:

    I'll bet those D3 beancounters thought they were saving money in the 80s, 90s, 00s. But sometimes the price comes a lot later, and for a long time.

    Most of those bean counters are probably retired in Florida though. All they care about now is no one reducing their social security benefits.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,407
    Short term profits without thought of long term consequences? Aren't there entire courses of study in that ideal at leading business schools? Prop up stock prices, run away with bonuses or golden parachutes, who cares what happens next.

    China gets nicer equipped Buicks than on this side of the pond, and it doesn't have the octogenarian LLC image it has in NA. Old time Chinese royalty also used Buick, and I think that lends it a mystique.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    fintail said:

    Short term profits without thought of long term consequences? Aren't there entire courses of study in that ideal at leading business schools? Prop up stock prices, run away with bonuses or golden parachutes, who cares what happens next.

    Well if you play the game well enough - you could even become president!

    As to autos, I see that sales are dropping in general, GM in particular. Toyota though is up.

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Toyota sales: Generally reliable cars with good price and financing promotions right now - shouldn't be a surprise really.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,407
    I wonder if there's any way to form a point of saturation for this market. With cars lasting longer, and incomes still not really keeping pace, huge sales can't last forever.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I'm thinking a recession would possibly hammer SUV, crossover, minivan sales because they have all gotten pretty high priced compared to income growth. Also there are starting to be more higher risk credit write-offs occurring already. But I don't think we are at the point right now without something bad happening to trigger it.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Seems like a repeat of 08 if we have a recession. And given almost 10 years of growth, we are probably due.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    fintail said:

    I wonder if there's any way to form a point of saturation for this market. With cars lasting longer, and incomes still not really keeping pace, huge sales can't last forever.

    Just keep making it easier to borrow money! The U.S. "growth" in GPD is debt-driven. That's scary, isn't it?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Debt: government, consumer - monkey see, monkey do B)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,407
    Society is consumerism and debt-driven.

    Given the uncertainty of this new era, along with an insanely long growth cycle, and unequal wealth gains, it could be interesting.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I want to be a cheerleader, but I just don't see it as sustainable much longer. They're stealing everything not nailed down.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    So what will the stock market top out at? 23K? 24K? 25K?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,407
    How much is that in Rubles? :)

    Actually, that makes me think of something - this year, the USD has been sliding, I wonder if that will impact car prices, especially Euro brands (as we never really saw benefit with a strong USD).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If it gets weak enough, it will impact everything we buy from overseas. Whatever we buy that is domestically produced has no effect from a weak dollar. So it's really the "international weak dollar" we're talking about.

    On the positive side, a weak dollar helps our exports.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,407
    As the US is by far a net importer, a weak dollar has more potential to cause ire for the average American, at least IMO.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles