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It's been brought to my attention that synthetic blend oils may contain very little synthetic and mostly dino oil. I'm using synthetic blend Valvoline and Castrol on an alternating basis in my 98 Isuzu Trooper (yes, I know Castrol's "full synthetic" Syntec is not really synthetic). I don't think I want to start using full synthetic in the vehicle but felt I was potentially benefiting the truck by using synthetic blend.
I change the oil and filter every 3,000 miles. Would people recommend that I do something different? E.g. use dino oil every 3,000 miles and quit wasting money on synthetic blend which is a buck a quart more than dino? Switch to full synthetic and extend the change interval to 5,000-7,500 miles, thus offsetting the higher price of the oil? Mix my own "synthetic blend"? I've heard a couple people say this last option is a safe one for the engine but others have speculated that the synth and dino may not work well together since they aren't intended to be used at the same time, even if they are of the same brand.
One reason I'm reluctant to go with full synthetic and a longer change interval is because there are some known problems with the 3.5L Isuzu V6, and the 3.2L from which it evolved, whose likelihood is minimized by sticking to a 3,000 mile or so change interval.
I look forward to feedback. Thanks.
Here's the facts.
Syn oil Mobil 1, Amsoil are as good as any. Mobil 1 han any number of tests that at changing at 7500 miles or 15000 gives very, very little wear after 50,000 to 200,000 miles.
Mobil 1 Has run any number of SAE Sequence IV, IIIE tests at double to quadruple the numbers of hours required. In short dino oils are not even in the game. here.
Syns do not attack seals and gaskets like they use to but they can leak in a seal which has been running dino for say 50,000 miles. Although not necessarily. None of my seals in 8 cars has ever leaked with Mobil 1.
Blends are not worth the money. I understand about 10%. Can't prove the exact %.
My opinion any syn in the engine is good. Personally, as I have said many times before. Use a good filter (Pure 1, Amsoil, Mobil 1 Delco Ultraguard) Start with one or two quarts of syn with a good oil. I have been told by lub engineers 3 years ago that Havoline is best??????
My comfort level is once a year for my Corsica, with filter at 6 month. For the Toyota truck (22RE engine) 10 months filter at 5 months. When the oil goes from honey to very dark honey, I change. Syn used in a sound engine will use 1 to 2 ounces per 1000 miles. Works for me.
Later
Concur that blends are a waste of money. Either stay with dino or switch but I don't see any advantage to a blend and if I did I would blend my own.
As for blending, it's probably perfectly safe to do. I've been doing it for over 10 years in my power equipment with no bad results. On the contrary, I get reduced oil consumption, the engines are easier to start and they seem to run smoother.
For the most part I think that the 'taboo' of blending synthetics with petroleum oil is an old wives' tale. If you look on the bottle, it says they're compatible with conventional oil. To meet either an API or SAE classification, they HAVE to be. I'd like to say I've topped-off some of my cars that run synthetic with dead-dino oil but that isn't true. The cars I have that run synthetic never burn any oil ... even the ones with 100,000 or more miles on them. They never need topping off.
I read somewhere that synthetic blends were no more than 20% synthetic. Even at that 'high' amount, the oil is NOT a good deal. look at the shelf prices involved and do the math. For a 5 qt. change, it is cheaper to buy 1 quart of synthetic and 4 qts. conventional oil of the same brand than it is to buy 5 quarts of a blend ... and at least you KNOW you have a full 20% synthetic in your motor.
Oh, and just because an oil looks clean on the dipstick, that isn't necessarily a good thing. It might be that the oil is failing at preventing the build up of varnish and sludge inside the motor. In other words, the cleaning properties the oil is supposed to have might not be working properly.
--- Bror Jace
Anyway, no need to waste this forums time on company histories or which is better, will never know. SO, one should go with what one has had good luck with and one feels comfortable with.
Also agree that clean oil is not necessarily a good thing but oil analysis for me tells the story. who knows, some manufacturers may actually place an additive in the oil to turn it darker sooner for those people that change oil based on color!!!!!
You don't want to argue/debate ... but here we are anyway. Amsoil's first formula was a disaster which is why they they had to switch to the same kind of base stocks Mobil uses. No, I'm sorry but I don't consider them the equal of the bigger companies. They don't even make/refine their own product. They buy PAO from other companies ... like Mobil.
"RedLine is geared more towards racing, Amsoil the (average) driver."
Redline has racing AND road going (with detergents) formulas. I didn't realize that Amsoil was significantly less expensive than Redline ... but I still won't buy it, not while there are other (more reputable, IMHO) alternatives available.
"As to marketing, whoa, what about Castrol and the false and misleading advertising about Syntec."
What Castrol did was sleazy, I won't buy their stuff anymore either and I recommend others to seek alternatives as well.
"no need to waste this forums time on company histories or which is better, will never know."
I'm not so sure about that. This link no longer works but it had some comments all Amsoil users should know:
http://www.oilandenergy.com.au/proddocs/sohistry.htm
That info will undoubtedly surface again.
Keyrow, I know a man who changed his wife's car (a high-mileage Chrysler sedan) over from dead dino oil to Mobil 1 15W50 and the next day she asked him what he did to the car because it was running "so much better!"
That's the kind of experiences I've had with synthetics as well. >:^)
--- Bror Jace
--- Bror Jace
It's up and running again.
Good find. Thanks.
A couple more questions come to mind: Is Mobil's dino oil considered any good? Also, does Havoline make a full synthetic? I've heard a few comments that Havoline dino oil is one of the best brands of dino oil. I've always considered Valvoline and Castrol to be the high-end dino oil companies in terms of image, but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean their oil is any good.
BTW my owners manual for my Nissan Sentra says not to mix conventional and syn oils. Don't know why. I doubt if they know what they are talking about IMHO.
I didn't think Redline was a full syn. Who says Redline is best other than Redline??
RedLine, I concur, the only people saying Redline is the best is Redline, they have "NO" independent lab test either. Just anecdotal opinions, like mine. At least I have 9 years of oil analysis to back my personal preferences, which is something all people should do, that is, base their opinions on personal documented evidence!!!!!!!
How long should I wait before switching to synthetic on my new truck ?
Thanks
Where have you guys seen it? How much does it cost?
Mobil's web site would have you believe that their Mobil dino oil is a premium motor oil. I've never heard ANY comments anywhere on Mobil's dino oil, which leads me to believe that the people who use it aren't the type of people who care what brand oil they use and therefore don't really talk about it. Mobil's dino oil definitely isn't priced like a premium oil-- it's usually a buck a quart, or even less. Some of the other brands such as Castrol, Valvoline, Quaker State, etc. are pushing past $1.50/quart.
And then there's the little matter of their marketing. On the 1Qt container they say, "get a free T shirt." However, after buying 4Qts and opening the folded flyers tied to the containers, you are told that you must buy 6Qts in order to qualify for 1 T shirt. A T shirt is no big deal but just goes to show how deceptive Castrol has become. I only use Mobil 1 now.
Yeah, be careful of the spell checker here. It bites you on the butt. It'll change an EGR valve into an EAR valve.
I don't know about the rest of you folks, but in my area Castrol Syntec is actually MORE expensive than Mobil1 overall. I've not seen Castrol Syntec lower than $4.25 a quart, but Mobil1 is often $4/qt. My nearest Target store is $3.89/qt. Unfortunately my nearest Sam's Club just ran out of 5W30 cases, which were only $21.49.
To be safe you may want to wait for 1000 miles. You'll hopefully be taking it easy on the vehicle anyway during this time.
Personally Havoline- why go whith it when Mobil 1 clearly has the experience and the market. AS I've mentioned, there is an SAE publication that clearly convinced me to go with Mobil 1. I have also talked to their technical research center and got information that does not go out to the public. This was in connection with my job when I was a working stiff.
Al
Think I will change the factory oil&filter at 1000 miles then do the switch to synthetic at 3000...thanks again adc100.
It's funny about Havoline but I've heard both extremes about that oil. That it is the best dino juice going ... and that it is the worst ... sorta like Quaker State was for a while. Maybe they had a couple bad batches or tried some funky formulation for a year or two? Now, I wonder if their formula is going to change? Weren't they recently bought up by Pennzoil ... who also now owns Quaker State?
For dino oil, I've settled on Valvoline All-Climate. It may not be the best in any given (often somewhat questionable) test but I've never heard a bad thing about it and for dino oil, that's about all I can ask for. Good ole' reliable Valvoline.
adc100, doesn't Havoline have a toll free number where you can call with consumer questions? Ask them if their synthetic formula is PAO (polyalphaolefins) or grade III petroleum and you'll get your answer. If it is 100% PAO, it's almost definitely pretty good ... although I don't like the extreme spread in their 5W40 oil. The STP-like goo (Viscosity Improver) that they use to bridge the summer and winter numbers tends to break down rather quickly and muck up the motor a bit. I doubt it's serious but I think there are better alternatives available ... like a 5W30 or 10W30 which, depending on the mfr. Have little or no VI.
The Nissan manual says not to mix, eh? I think they just want to eliminate variables and they don't want drivers to be throwing a cocktail of God-knows-what in the motor and then having to overhaul it for free if something goes wrong. If there was a problem mixing PAO with dino oil, we'd have heard about it by now. When changing your oil, there is usually a half quart or so that remains throughout the motor after draining. You're always mixing, to a degree, when changing your oil and switch oil types, brands, etc ... whether you know it or not.
About Redline. It is 100% synthetic using polyol esther stocks. They have a lot of serious, technical info on their site (not merely anecdotal, armtdm) unlike the nonsense on the sites of Royal Purple and a couple pure-charlatans (and no, I'm not talking Amsoil here, not quite). Sure, it's biased and one-sided but if someone can point out serious flaws in their testing and analysis, please let me know. I'd be interested in hearing it. Most of the serious racers use Redline in the cars. I remember recently seeing an ad for a tire mfr (Goodyear?) and I looked at the dozen race cars pictured and 11 out of 12 had a Redline sticker showing. I doubt that's by accident and I doubt Redline is paying enough in sponsorship money to justify this. They aren't that well known outside of racing and they haven't gone the MLM route that Amsoil has. It is simple a highly specialized, premium product.
--- Bror Jace
Good product, I use their gear oil, but all these companies use whatever marketing gimmicks they can get their hands on. Plus, the prices for Redline vary considerably from dealer to dealer. Most dealers are actually cheaper then the home office too. There appears to be no standard pricing schedule from what I have seen. I called multiple dealers and the HO when I was purchasing there gear oil.
Later guys,
Time for a bloody Mary.
Later
ttyl
Any thoughts about the low level, Alcan?
Al
artdm: "Well, it seems to me (Redline) has gone the MLM route ...
Nope. multi-level marketing is selling through people who have 1 line of products they sell on a person-to-person basis without a proper retail store. Sellers/Jobbers are encouraged to sign other people on as distributors, etc ... Amway, Shaklee and certain cosmetics are sold this way. MLM relies on lots of person-to-person contact in a non-retail environment, etc ... Redline products are sold by stores like Pep Boys (but only a few products) specialty car shops and mail order companies.
artdm: "Redline may not sponsor a race car but just by giving the oil free they can get their sticker on the car."
I thought about this but then why are they in business? Most of their customers are racers. Redline Oil is virtually unheard of by the general public. Nope, I can't see them giving that much oil away for no reason. Redline might pay a small fee or give SOME product away (as a sponsorship) but in the end they have to make money selling to racers in order to stay afloat. I suppose some racers could be running some other brand of oil regardless but I've never heard one person say anything bad about Redline oil or heard of one team switch away from it because there was something better out there.
ADC100: "I noticed that Quaker State has an 800#. I'd be interested in what they have to say."
I've heard that their customer service is very good. One person on the usenet forums was surprised how knowledgeable they were ... kind of like my experience talking to Valvoline at 1-800-teamval. I still don't expect to be buying Quaker State anytime soon ... old stigmas die hard. >;^} Compare and contrast these companies with Mobil. They have 2 different MSDS sheets for (apparently) two different Mobil 1 5W30 formulations: a regular version and a "GM" version. Try calling their customer service line and asking them what the difference is and they have no knowledge whatsoever. Cute.
--- Bror Jace
If you can make a product cheaply and call it something else, why shouldn't everybody get on the bandwagon? I just hope Mobil 1 hasn't gone that way though and hope it's just a false rumour. I'm going to investigate that one.
I'd like to see how this super-dino oil (Castrol Syntec) would do against a 100% PAO formula like Valvoline Synpower in a stress-test shootout. I doubt we'll ever see an objective test, however. Testing is expensive and I don't see it being in anyone's best interest to pay for the test ... unless they KNOW they'll be the winner.
Maybe Redline will test these formulas against their stuff in the not-too-distant future? At least that chart should show us how the two mainstream lubricants compare to one another.
--- Bror Jace
Al
Pep Boys only carries Redline's fuel injection cleaner, a diesel fuel catalyst and water wetter ... a coolant additive. For most of the lubes, you'll have to go on-line or mail order. I'm ordering some oil from www.manhonda.com which is a Honda Dealership in Connecticut I've dealt with for years. There's also www.myoilshop.com and even redlinesales.com among many others although I have not ordered from those last two.
Years ago, I bought some Redline MTL at a specialty performance (foreign) shop in Providence, RI. There's gotta be a retail place near most people.
--- Bror Jace
Al
Where exactly in New England do you live. You have noted CT, Providence etc.
I have ordered RedLine and not all dealers carry the entire line. This is a problem. Soem the oil, some gear oil but a full line of the product by one dealer has not been my experience.
Yes, few dealers carry Redline's complete line. It's expensive and appeals to a very narrow segment of the market. I even ordered (and paid through the nose for) some MTL from the home office in California.
I've used Water Wetter as well and I can't be sure it's doing anything. I let the anti-freeze go in my Honda for 5 years because at last testing, it tested OK to -25F and looked brand new. I'm not sure this is due to the anti-corrosion properties of the Redline additive or the quality of OEM anti-freeze.
--- Bror Jace
All of the testimonials on this oilshop site were from racing enthusiasts. Not a one from the average driver getting 200,000 miles out of commuting back and forth to work over 10 years. That is what this form is about in my opinion, getting the most out of any engine. I want to see independent lab results and testimonials from the guy going short trips, the housewife doing errands and over 10 years going 200,000 miles. Racing has always been the key to day to day driving upgrades for the manufacturer but there truly is a difference in the parts needed, the specifications and the lubricants. Yes, RedLine is a great oil, (or so they say, again, no independent lab tests) for the day to day driver I am not sure it is any better then the Mobil1, Amsoil or the Valvolines of the world and is certaily very very expensive in comparison.
For those who don't know the URL:
www.redlineoil.com
Perhaps when they add all the detergents, corrosion inhibitors and seal conditioners to the polyol esther stocks, they'll perform no better than PAO. Maybe I'll see a slight difference in the car's performance, maybe not.
Still, I'm a little eager to TRY Redline this summer and if I like it, I'll keep using it. My Honda only takes 3.5 quarts total and consumes no oil between changes. The additional cost over mass-market synthetics is about $2-$2.50 per quart which translates to $20 or so per year. Not a lot of money to spend on experimentation.
Maybe after a time or two I'll switch back to Valvoline and/or Mobil 1. We'll see ...
Oh, and I think I remember that Mobil was accused of selling Grade III stocks as synthetic in their overseas oil formulations. I'm not sure about this and I've lost contact with the chemist that informed me of it. It's worth keeping an eye on, though.
--- Bror Jace
temperatures.
http://mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt
in but since I've read people recommending Pure
One filters here, I'd ask here. First off, where
can we buy Pure One filters....and what makes them
the best....can anyone point me towards any sites
that give studies of different oil filters?
Also, my local autoshop was recommending a brand
called Wix I think....said it was much better
than the Frams...anyone ever heard of this brand
and is it really better?
I saw some Mobil full synthetic 5w30 at my local
shop....anyone know if they add any additives to
this particular one to stretch the range?
Thanks for any replies.
Why Pure One? Do not want lose time on search, and there are only two brands of premium filters available at the Pep Boys. The other is Delco Ultra, costs $10.
I believe, there is substantial difference between stock (paper) filters and the premium (fibre) ones. Does pay with longer oil change intervals. On the other hand, the difference between premium filters, probably, is less substantial. "The law of diminishing returns".
For the same reason I am using Mobil 1 synthetic oil. Have a good reputation, and easy to find/buy.
All brand of synthetic oil costs the same $4.49 at our Pep Boys: Valvoline, Penzoil, Castrol, etc. So, why experiment?
On the other hand, such brands as Amsoil, Red Line, Royal Purple, etc. are not ready available. Even if they are really better somewhat (I cannot know), the difference in quality probably does not pay for the trouble of mail-ordering...
Though, this is just my believes, not facts.