Pardon me if this has been covered before, but I didn't see it in the last 200 or so posts.
It's been brought to my attention that synthetic blend oils may contain very little synthetic and mostly dino oil. I'm using synthetic blend Valvoline and Castrol on an alternating basis in my 98 Isuzu Trooper (yes, I know Castrol's "full synthetic" Syntec is not really synthetic). I don't think I want to start using full synthetic in the vehicle but felt I was potentially benefiting the truck by using synthetic blend.
I change the oil and filter every 3,000 miles. Would people recommend that I do something different? E.g. use dino oil every 3,000 miles and quit wasting money on synthetic blend which is a buck a quart more than dino? Switch to full synthetic and extend the change interval to 5,000-7,500 miles, thus offsetting the higher price of the oil? Mix my own "synthetic blend"? I've heard a couple people say this last option is a safe one for the engine but others have speculated that the synth and dino may not work well together since they aren't intended to be used at the same time, even if they are of the same brand.
One reason I'm reluctant to go with full synthetic and a longer change interval is because there are some known problems with the 3.5L Isuzu V6, and the 3.2L from which it evolved, whose likelihood is minimized by sticking to a 3,000 mile or so change interval.
Make your own blend, if you want. On one of my vehicles, I use a 50/50 blend of Mobil 1/mobil dino (the other I use full synth). I'm not aware of anyone who says not to make your own blend, but I have heard suggestions to stick with a single manufacturer.
My Chrysler minivan has 102k miles now and has always been on dino oil. I would like to switch to synthetic or at least do a 50/50 synthetic/dino. Has anyone actually done this at a vehicle with this mileage? I am hesitant because it might causes leaks.
Syn oil Mobil 1, Amsoil are as good as any. Mobil 1 han any number of tests that at changing at 7500 miles or 15000 gives very, very little wear after 50,000 to 200,000 miles.
Mobil 1 Has run any number of SAE Sequence IV, IIIE tests at double to quadruple the numbers of hours required. In short dino oils are not even in the game. here.
Syns do not attack seals and gaskets like they use to but they can leak in a seal which has been running dino for say 50,000 miles. Although not necessarily. None of my seals in 8 cars has ever leaked with Mobil 1.
Blends are not worth the money. I understand about 10%. Can't prove the exact %.
My opinion any syn in the engine is good. Personally, as I have said many times before. Use a good filter (Pure 1, Amsoil, Mobil 1 Delco Ultraguard) Start with one or two quarts of syn with a good oil. I have been told by lub engineers 3 years ago that Havoline is best?????? My comfort level is once a year for my Corsica, with filter at 6 month. For the Toyota truck (22RE engine) 10 months filter at 5 months. When the oil goes from honey to very dark honey, I change. Syn used in a sound engine will use 1 to 2 ounces per 1000 miles. Works for me.
They have a spec for syn blend when they have not clearly and consistently defined what a syn is. BTW alcan, I'm the guy with the "remanufactured" auto trans in the Sentra. I probably will not go to arb. because of it (would loose anyway). Also in part from what you had to say. Who knows maybe mine is better than new. Time will tell. When I got the car back the level (I checked it properly) was 12 ounzes below the add line. Already gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
My son just purchased a 97 Isuzu Rodeo with the 3.2L you mention with 58,000 miles 2WD. Engine looked pretty clean but a very thin coating of dark film appears to be there when I looked into the oil filler area. I switched it to full Amsoil synthetic about 400 miles ago and I have no concerns, been using the product too long on too many cars, I know it works fine. I did not do a flush as the engine looked pretty clean except for the dark stained film. No sludge. So far oil is still clean. Using a Mobil 1 filter but will switch to the Amsoil SD 36 which is a larger filter capacity the next time. Also changed the tranny fluid to synthetic, stupid design, no dipstick and has a fill plug, yea, automatic. I have not heard of any problems with the 3.2L, seems to run fine.
Concur that blends are a waste of money. Either stay with dino or switch but I don't see any advantage to a blend and if I did I would blend my own.
I've stated in the other oil thread here at Edmunds Town Hall that I dislike the Amsoil company's history and they way they've marketed their product (multi-level marketing) but since their formula is now PAO-based, like Mobil 1, Valvoline and some others, I'd say it is at least OK, probably almost as good. I just wouldn't pay the extra price for it. If I want to spend more than $4 per quart on motor oil, I'll buy Redline and get the REALLY good stuff the serious racers use.
As for blending, it's probably perfectly safe to do. I've been doing it for over 10 years in my power equipment with no bad results. On the contrary, I get reduced oil consumption, the engines are easier to start and they seem to run smoother.
For the most part I think that the 'taboo' of blending synthetics with petroleum oil is an old wives' tale. If you look on the bottle, it says they're compatible with conventional oil. To meet either an API or SAE classification, they HAVE to be. I'd like to say I've topped-off some of my cars that run synthetic with dead-dino oil but that isn't true. The cars I have that run synthetic never burn any oil ... even the ones with 100,000 or more miles on them. They never need topping off.
I read somewhere that synthetic blends were no more than 20% synthetic. Even at that 'high' amount, the oil is NOT a good deal. look at the shelf prices involved and do the math. For a 5 qt. change, it is cheaper to buy 1 quart of synthetic and 4 qts. conventional oil of the same brand than it is to buy 5 quarts of a blend ... and at least you KNOW you have a full 20% synthetic in your motor.
Oh, and just because an oil looks clean on the dipstick, that isn't necessarily a good thing. It might be that the oil is failing at preventing the build up of varnish and sludge inside the motor. In other words, the cleaning properties the oil is supposed to have might not be working properly.
Don't wish to argue the merits of Amsoil but they were first, well before Mobil. Does that make them better, no. My opinion, at least equal. RedLine is geared more towards racing, Amsoil the ave driver. Yea, when the Richmond speedway is running Nascar, my jobber sells a ton of Amsoil oil for the trials. Further, at least they are willing to back extended drains which no one, even RedLine (which encourages them) will do. As to price. Amsoil is $4.35/quart, Redline is in the $6 range. As to marketing, whoa, what about Castrol and the false and misleading advertising about Syntec. Amsoil tries to back its claims to some degree and it is 100% synthetic.
Anyway, no need to waste this forums time on company histories or which is better, will never know. SO, one should go with what one has had good luck with and one feels comfortable with. Also agree that clean oil is not necessarily a good thing but oil analysis for me tells the story. who knows, some manufacturers may actually place an additive in the oil to turn it darker sooner for those people that change oil based on color!!!!!
I own a 92 Ford Taurus which currently has 157K miles on her. I changed to Mobil1 at 103K and have had no leaks whatsoever. The oil did become dark quickly (for a syn oil) so I had to change oil more frequently the first two syn oil changes. I think that the darkening was due to the syn oil cleaning all the varnish/sludge left over from using dino oil for so long. I do believe the engine runs smoother now, but that is only my highly subjective opinion.
"(I) don't wish to argue the merits of Amsoil but they were first, well before Mobil. Does that make them better, no. My opinion, at least equal."
You don't want to argue/debate ... but here we are anyway. Amsoil's first formula was a disaster which is why they they had to switch to the same kind of base stocks Mobil uses. No, I'm sorry but I don't consider them the equal of the bigger companies. They don't even make/refine their own product. They buy PAO from other companies ... like Mobil.
"RedLine is geared more towards racing, Amsoil the (average) driver."
Redline has racing AND road going (with detergents) formulas. I didn't realize that Amsoil was significantly less expensive than Redline ... but I still won't buy it, not while there are other (more reputable, IMHO) alternatives available.
"As to marketing, whoa, what about Castrol and the false and misleading advertising about Syntec."
What Castrol did was sleazy, I won't buy their stuff anymore either and I recommend others to seek alternatives as well.
"no need to waste this forums time on company histories or which is better, will never know."
I'm not so sure about that. This link no longer works but it had some comments all Amsoil users should know:
Keyrow, I know a man who changed his wife's car (a high-mileage Chrysler sedan) over from dead dino oil to Mobil 1 15W50 and the next day she asked him what he did to the car because it was running "so much better!"
That's the kind of experiences I've had with synthetics as well. >:^)
vadp, that whole site seems to have gone down. That's too bad. They summed up the history of synthetic oils nicely in 2-3 pages. I wonder if I saved the text anywhere?
Thanks for the feedback. I plan either to switch my 98 Trooper over to full synthetic or start buying and mixing same-brand dino and full synthetic 50/50. If I choose the latter, I'll probably go with Valvoline or Mobil. No more buying synthetic blend for me.
A couple more questions come to mind: Is Mobil's dino oil considered any good? Also, does Havoline make a full synthetic? I've heard a few comments that Havoline dino oil is one of the best brands of dino oil. I've always considered Valvoline and Castrol to be the high-end dino oil companies in terms of image, but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean their oil is any good.
Havoline is the best dino oil. Is their syn yeally syn- who knows- not me. Mobil conventional oil- like I said I would go with Havoline. I used to use Castrol but the sleeze factor is to high for me.
BTW my owners manual for my Nissan Sentra says not to mix conventional and syn oils. Don't know why. I doubt if they know what they are talking about IMHO.
I didn't think Redline was a full syn. Who says Redline is best other than Redline??
Yea. Havoline does make a full syntheic, I use it in my lawnmower. this does not mean it is a poor synthetic, but it is much less expensive where I live then the others. For my auto engines I use Amosil but that is personal preference based on 9 years of good experience.
RedLine, I concur, the only people saying Redline is the best is Redline, they have "NO" independent lab test either. Just anecdotal opinions, like mine. At least I have 9 years of oil analysis to back my personal preferences, which is something all people should do, that is, base their opinions on personal documented evidence!!!!!!!
I have been following the various discussions about synthetic vs. dino and have decided to use synthetic in my new truck. Just seems like a little more insurance for a little extra $. I was wondering how everyone feels about Havoline and if any of you are using it in your vehicles. Is it comparable to Mobil 1 / Amsoil ? How long should I wait before switching to synthetic on my new truck ? Thanks
I don't think I've seen it in any stores where I live (southeast Michigan), and I've looked at many stores for oil: Wal-Mart, KMart, Target, Sam's Club, Costco, Meijer, AutoZone, Murray's.
Where have you guys seen it? How much does it cost?
Mobil's web site would have you believe that their Mobil dino oil is a premium motor oil. I've never heard ANY comments anywhere on Mobil's dino oil, which leads me to believe that the people who use it aren't the type of people who care what brand oil they use and therefore don't really talk about it. Mobil's dino oil definitely isn't priced like a premium oil-- it's usually a buck a quart, or even less. Some of the other brands such as Castrol, Valvoline, Quaker State, etc. are pushing past $1.50/quart.
I once contacted Castrol and enquired about their synthetic blend. I asked them how much synthetic oil was in the blend? Their answer was, "up to 10%." Well that could cover 1% as well. I really think Castrol has turned into a sleazy company. If you look at their adverts for Syntech in magazines like Popular Mechanics, all they talk about is the cleaning and bonding properties of their oil. There's nothing about the so-called "synthetic" properties. And that's simple to explain because they've been rapped over the knuckles about calling their modified dino oil synthetic. For me it's not synthetic but they persist in putting "full synthetic" on the container. It's a cheaper process to make but the price remains the same as Mobil 1 - a true synthetic oil.
And then there's the little matter of their marketing. On the 1Qt container they say, "get a free T shirt." However, after buying 4Qts and opening the folded flyers tied to the containers, you are told that you must buy 6Qts in order to qualify for 1 T shirt. A T shirt is no big deal but just goes to show how deceptive Castrol has become. I only use Mobil 1 now.
Yeah, be careful of the spell checker here. It bites you on the butt. It'll change an EGR valve into an EAR valve.
I was chagrined to find that Mobil points out on its web site that synthetic blend oils may have as little as 10% synthetic oil and the percentages typically are not even stated by the manufacturer, and guess what? Mobil does not state what percentage of synthetic oil is in its own Drive Clean Blend, aka synthetic blend. I was hoping to find out that the Drive Clean Blend was something like 33% or 50% synthetic, so I could confidently use a manufacturer-made synthetic blend instead of blending my own dino and synthetic and always wondering if it's "safe." Oh well, I won't be using it.
I don't know about the rest of you folks, but in my area Castrol Syntec is actually MORE expensive than Mobil1 overall. I've not seen Castrol Syntec lower than $4.25 a quart, but Mobil1 is often $4/qt. My nearest Target store is $3.89/qt. Unfortunately my nearest Sam's Club just ran out of 5W30 cases, which were only $21.49.
You'll see any numper of opinions where you should wait, 1000, 5000, 10000 miles. I changed when I got the vehicle home 35 miles. The potential worry is seating of rings. Mobil told me rings were seated by the time I got home. Mobil 1 goes in AMG performance, Porsh performance, Viper, 'Vette right out the door. Someone said that 'vette had trouble using it right out of the chute. Have not seen it documented, nor do I believe it.
To be safe you may want to wait for 1000 miles. You'll hopefully be taking it easy on the vehicle anyway during this time.
Personally Havoline- why go whith it when Mobil 1 clearly has the experience and the market. AS I've mentioned, there is an SAE publication that clearly convinced me to go with Mobil 1. I have also talked to their technical research center and got information that does not go out to the public. This was in connection with my job when I was a working stiff.
Thanks for your comments adc100. I have used Havoline before and always found it to be an excellent dino oil. I would expect that their synthetic would be of premium quality as well. A little less $$$ since they don't do the advertising that Mobil 1 does. Personally, I think that Mobil 1 is a premium product as well and have used it in motorcycles. Think I will change the factory oil&filter at 1000 miles then do the switch to synthetic at 3000...thanks again adc100.
Mobil's conventional oil is one of the least expensive going. I just don't know why. I used to get this for Dad's previous Mercury Grand Marquis. His car started burning oil voraciously at around 80,000 miles but I met a few other owners of this automobile and they all said it was the cheap valve seals Ford uses. Replacing the valve seals with Fel Pro supposedly cuts the consumption down to a small fraction of what it was previously. My Dad just dealt with the high consumption and at 130,000 miles, traded in the car. So, I can't say for sure anything about the Mobil dino sauce.
It's funny about Havoline but I've heard both extremes about that oil. That it is the best dino juice going ... and that it is the worst ... sorta like Quaker State was for a while. Maybe they had a couple bad batches or tried some funky formulation for a year or two? Now, I wonder if their formula is going to change? Weren't they recently bought up by Pennzoil ... who also now owns Quaker State?
For dino oil, I've settled on Valvoline All-Climate. It may not be the best in any given (often somewhat questionable) test but I've never heard a bad thing about it and for dino oil, that's about all I can ask for. Good ole' reliable Valvoline.
adc100, doesn't Havoline have a toll free number where you can call with consumer questions? Ask them if their synthetic formula is PAO (polyalphaolefins) or grade III petroleum and you'll get your answer. If it is 100% PAO, it's almost definitely pretty good ... although I don't like the extreme spread in their 5W40 oil. The STP-like goo (Viscosity Improver) that they use to bridge the summer and winter numbers tends to break down rather quickly and muck up the motor a bit. I doubt it's serious but I think there are better alternatives available ... like a 5W30 or 10W30 which, depending on the mfr. Have little or no VI.
The Nissan manual says not to mix, eh? I think they just want to eliminate variables and they don't want drivers to be throwing a cocktail of God-knows-what in the motor and then having to overhaul it for free if something goes wrong. If there was a problem mixing PAO with dino oil, we'd have heard about it by now. When changing your oil, there is usually a half quart or so that remains throughout the motor after draining. You're always mixing, to a degree, when changing your oil and switch oil types, brands, etc ... whether you know it or not.
About Redline. It is 100% synthetic using polyol esther stocks. They have a lot of serious, technical info on their site (not merely anecdotal, armtdm) unlike the nonsense on the sites of Royal Purple and a couple pure-charlatans (and no, I'm not talking Amsoil here, not quite). Sure, it's biased and one-sided but if someone can point out serious flaws in their testing and analysis, please let me know. I'd be interested in hearing it. Most of the serious racers use Redline in the cars. I remember recently seeing an ad for a tire mfr (Goodyear?) and I looked at the dozen race cars pictured and 11 out of 12 had a Redline sticker showing. I doubt that's by accident and I doubt Redline is paying enough in sponsorship money to justify this. They aren't that well known outside of racing and they haven't gone the MLM route that Amsoil has. It is simple a highly specialized, premium product.
Well, it seems to me they have gone the MLM route, can only purchase from a dealer and not available at any retail store that I know of. My point on the testing is, it is all their own testing. There are no independent lab test available. Doesn't mean it is not good stuff, just all there own test results. What this field needs is an independent lab to test the oils and provide the consumer with the results. But, this will never happen. They (Redline) may not sponsor a race car but just by giving the oil free they can get their sticker on the car.
Good product, I use their gear oil, but all these companies use whatever marketing gimmicks they can get their hands on. Plus, the prices for Redline vary considerably from dealer to dealer. Most dealers are actually cheaper then the home office too. There appears to be no standard pricing schedule from what I have seen. I called multiple dealers and the HO when I was purchasing there gear oil.
You make some good points. I tend to agree about Nissan. I noticed that Quaker State has an 800#. I'd be interested in what they have to say. Armtdm, it would be interesting to see head to head. And yes it will never happen. Fuzzy, vague, and sleazy is always best in the retail business. I do like Mobil 1 products but would switch in a heartbeat to something else if I could find something better.
I've just bought a 97 Civic HX with 52000 miles on it. The previous owner was using convetional Valvoline 10W 30 most of the time and sometimes 5W 30. I want the opinion of all the experts out there that would it be better for me to move to synthetic. I live in LA and obviously temperature dont go much down even in winters. If it would be better for me to move to synthetic, which brand should i use and also what would be the procedure to move to synthetic. Can I do it at once or have to move gradually over next few oil changes. Lastly, if using conventional oil is ok, then should i use 5w 30 or 10w 30, and also which is the best brand for that.
There are any number of posts above on subject. Briefly I'd switch slower, no more than 50% syn over time. I like Mobil 1. Would go with vehicle recommendations for the weight, either will do. I like Havoline for conventional.
I have put a couple of hundred miles on it and it performs as I feel it should. I'm gonna go on with life the way it is. Besides there is something to be said for not screwing with something which is working well. I was a little annoyed that it came back to me almost 1/2 quart below the hot-low line . I was also annoyed with myself that I waited for 150 miles to check it. after the dealer also put 100 miles on it also. I called the dealer on it and he said no problem. Easy for him to say although it did perform very well. And since this is the syn oil board I drained out the oil in the reservoir and filled it with Mobil 1 syn. I'll probably do that a couple more times in the next year to get mostly syn in there.
At a web site for Corvettes (C5-Corvette.com), a while ago someone said that Mobil now derives it's base stock oil component from a Petro stock, using some sort or a process that they say produces a synthetic component. This was done, supposedly because one of their oil competitors starting doing this earlier, and Mobil appealed to the Petroleum Institute saying that the oil should not be called fully synthetic. When the Institute did not support Mobil, Mobil then made this change to a cheaper process. According to the message, this newer formulation no longer has the performance of the original Mobil 1. I e-mailed Mobil a few months ago about this, and they just sent me some typical rhetoric about their oil, but didn't answer my question. Since then, I have switched to Redline Oil, but am paying a premium for it. Anyone have some info about this?
If there are no leaks it's probably a case of a flat rate tech trying to get a low paying warranty job out and the next one in. Btw, a friend works at the Oakville, Ontario Ford plant which builds all Windstars for North America. He was on short shift recently because they had about 1,000 of them in the compound waiting for new replacement transaxles. Sometimes a new vehicle already has a history by the time it's shipped.
Carpers, I still think it's 100% synthetic; mostly PAO and some esthers. I'd be interested to know for sure. Valvoline Synpower is 100% PAO though, according to one of their chemists I spoke to a couple months ago.
artdm: "Well, it seems to me (Redline) has gone the MLM route ...
Nope. multi-level marketing is selling through people who have 1 line of products they sell on a person-to-person basis without a proper retail store. Sellers/Jobbers are encouraged to sign other people on as distributors, etc ... Amway, Shaklee and certain cosmetics are sold this way. MLM relies on lots of person-to-person contact in a non-retail environment, etc ... Redline products are sold by stores like Pep Boys (but only a few products) specialty car shops and mail order companies.
artdm: "Redline may not sponsor a race car but just by giving the oil free they can get their sticker on the car."
I thought about this but then why are they in business? Most of their customers are racers. Redline Oil is virtually unheard of by the general public. Nope, I can't see them giving that much oil away for no reason. Redline might pay a small fee or give SOME product away (as a sponsorship) but in the end they have to make money selling to racers in order to stay afloat. I suppose some racers could be running some other brand of oil regardless but I've never heard one person say anything bad about Redline oil or heard of one team switch away from it because there was something better out there.
ADC100: "I noticed that Quaker State has an 800#. I'd be interested in what they have to say."
I've heard that their customer service is very good. One person on the usenet forums was surprised how knowledgeable they were ... kind of like my experience talking to Valvoline at 1-800-teamval. I still don't expect to be buying Quaker State anytime soon ... old stigmas die hard. >;^} Compare and contrast these companies with Mobil. They have 2 different MSDS sheets for (apparently) two different Mobil 1 5W30 formulations: a regular version and a "GM" version. Try calling their customer service line and asking them what the difference is and they have no knowledge whatsoever. Cute.
carpers, I don't know anything about that story concerning Mobil 1. However, that's what Castrol did. They went and changed their method of manufacture by modifying dino oil and calling it synthetic. Mobil then sued them for false advertizing. However, Mobil did not win the case because "experts" decided that modified dino oil can also be called "synthetic". So here a trend was started and I suppose anything is possible.
If you can make a product cheaply and call it something else, why shouldn't everybody get on the bandwagon? I just hope Mobil 1 hasn't gone that way though and hope it's just a false rumour. I'm going to investigate that one.
I think more and more companies are going that route. Supposedly, this highly processed dino oil (called group III hydroisomerized stocks) is about half as expensive to produce as PAO which is made from ethylene gas. The push for profits is just too great for many to hold out which is why I recommend people call up and ask exactly WHAT is in each formula they are thinking of using.
I'd like to see how this super-dino oil (Castrol Syntec) would do against a 100% PAO formula like Valvoline Synpower in a stress-test shootout. I doubt we'll ever see an objective test, however. Testing is expensive and I don't see it being in anyone's best interest to pay for the test ... unless they KNOW they'll be the winner.
Maybe Redline will test these formulas against their stuff in the not-too-distant future? At least that chart should show us how the two mainstream lubricants compare to one another.
I'm gonna call Mobil and find out. If the guy at 1-800-askmobil doesn't know I ask for the technical/research group. They do give that #. If its not 100% PAO I'm outa there. With all of the companies jumping on the syn bandwagon. Mobil would have to join the competition unless they can somehow make money being the Porshe of oils. Not sure that's possible. Many companies have learned the hard way that downgrading their product ultimately may not be unsuccessful. Unfortunately the stockholder rules. I have not seen Redline anywhere. Someone said Pepbuys- not at the ones I've visited. I guess performance shops are the ticket??
adc100, I wouldn't bail on Mobil if they blended PAO with synthetic esthers. Polyol esthers is what Redline uses and Redline is the stuff that endures the high heat caused by jet turbines. It actually continues to lubricate at temps where PAO cooks and forms hard deposits. I'm not sure if these matters to an engine ... except in extreme, extreme circumstances or possibly hot spots like the piston rings.
Pep Boys only carries Redline's fuel injection cleaner, a diesel fuel catalyst and water wetter ... a coolant additive. For most of the lubes, you'll have to go on-line or mail order. I'm ordering some oil from www.manhonda.com which is a Honda Dealership in Connecticut I've dealt with for years. There's also www.myoilshop.com and even redlinesales.com among many others although I have not ordered from those last two.
Years ago, I bought some Redline MTL at a specialty performance (foreign) shop in Providence, RI. There's gotta be a retail place near most people.
I have used the RedLine Water Wetter a few times, quite honestly, I cannot detemine if there is any difference in cooling capacity or whether the engine actually runs cooler. Not sure it is worth the $6 per 12 ounce bottle.
Where exactly in New England do you live. You have noted CT, Providence etc.
I have ordered RedLine and not all dealers carry the entire line. This is a problem. Soem the oil, some gear oil but a full line of the product by one dealer has not been my experience.
I live in Saratoga County, NY so New England is fairly close to me and I used to travel through it as a sales rep for a friction lining and disc brake pad manufacturer several years ago.
Yes, few dealers carry Redline's complete line. It's expensive and appeals to a very narrow segment of the market. I even ordered (and paid through the nose for) some MTL from the home office in California.
I've used Water Wetter as well and I can't be sure it's doing anything. I let the anti-freeze go in my Honda for 5 years because at last testing, it tested OK to -25F and looked brand new. I'm not sure this is due to the anti-corrosion properties of the Redline additive or the quality of OEM anti-freeze.
I just visited the site and I just realized something. RedLine is great but as I have mentioned in the past, it truly is geared to racing. And racing is different from the day to day 15,000 mile/year driver. They need performance in short spurts, rebuild an engine every few races etc. That is why they can promote additives like Prolong etc. They improve performance in the short term but may injure an engine over the long haul. They are only concerned with the short term results.!
All of the testimonials on this oilshop site were from racing enthusiasts. Not a one from the average driver getting 200,000 miles out of commuting back and forth to work over 10 years. That is what this form is about in my opinion, getting the most out of any engine. I want to see independent lab results and testimonials from the guy going short trips, the housewife doing errands and over 10 years going 200,000 miles. Racing has always been the key to day to day driving upgrades for the manufacturer but there truly is a difference in the parts needed, the specifications and the lubricants. Yes, RedLine is a great oil, (or so they say, again, no independent lab tests) for the day to day driver I am not sure it is any better then the Mobil1, Amsoil or the Valvolines of the world and is certaily very very expensive in comparison.
armtdm, as I have stated before, Redline is MOSTLY for racers. They explain the differences between what a racer wants/needs in an oil as compared to what would work for an over-the-road motorist on their site.
For those who don't know the URL:
www.redlineoil.com
Perhaps when they add all the detergents, corrosion inhibitors and seal conditioners to the polyol esther stocks, they'll perform no better than PAO. Maybe I'll see a slight difference in the car's performance, maybe not.
Still, I'm a little eager to TRY Redline this summer and if I like it, I'll keep using it. My Honda only takes 3.5 quarts total and consumes no oil between changes. The additional cost over mass-market synthetics is about $2-$2.50 per quart which translates to $20 or so per year. Not a lot of money to spend on experimentation.
Maybe after a time or two I'll switch back to Valvoline and/or Mobil 1. We'll see ...
Oh, and I think I remember that Mobil was accused of selling Grade III stocks as synthetic in their overseas oil formulations. I'm not sure about this and I've lost contact with the chemist that informed me of it. It's worth keeping an eye on, though.
Hi, not sure which thread this question belongs in but since I've read people recommending Pure One filters here, I'd ask here. First off, where can we buy Pure One filters....and what makes them the best....can anyone point me towards any sites that give studies of different oil filters? Also, my local autoshop was recommending a brand called Wix I think....said it was much better than the Frams...anyone ever heard of this brand and is it really better?
I saw some Mobil full synthetic 5w30 at my local shop....anyone know if they add any additives to this particular one to stretch the range?
I am buying Pure One filters at local Pep Boys. Costs $6.
Why Pure One? Do not want lose time on search, and there are only two brands of premium filters available at the Pep Boys. The other is Delco Ultra, costs $10.
I believe, there is substantial difference between stock (paper) filters and the premium (fibre) ones. Does pay with longer oil change intervals. On the other hand, the difference between premium filters, probably, is less substantial. "The law of diminishing returns".
For the same reason I am using Mobil 1 synthetic oil. Have a good reputation, and easy to find/buy.
All brand of synthetic oil costs the same $4.49 at our Pep Boys: Valvoline, Penzoil, Castrol, etc. So, why experiment?
On the other hand, such brands as Amsoil, Red Line, Royal Purple, etc. are not ready available. Even if they are really better somewhat (I cannot know), the difference in quality probably does not pay for the trouble of mail-ordering...
I have heard a lot about this brand and would like to purchase some oil and tranny fluid but can't seem to find them at my local Pep Boys or Autozone. Do you have to special order them?
Comments
It's been brought to my attention that synthetic blend oils may contain very little synthetic and mostly dino oil. I'm using synthetic blend Valvoline and Castrol on an alternating basis in my 98 Isuzu Trooper (yes, I know Castrol's "full synthetic" Syntec is not really synthetic). I don't think I want to start using full synthetic in the vehicle but felt I was potentially benefiting the truck by using synthetic blend.
I change the oil and filter every 3,000 miles. Would people recommend that I do something different? E.g. use dino oil every 3,000 miles and quit wasting money on synthetic blend which is a buck a quart more than dino? Switch to full synthetic and extend the change interval to 5,000-7,500 miles, thus offsetting the higher price of the oil? Mix my own "synthetic blend"? I've heard a couple people say this last option is a safe one for the engine but others have speculated that the synth and dino may not work well together since they aren't intended to be used at the same time, even if they are of the same brand.
One reason I'm reluctant to go with full synthetic and a longer change interval is because there are some known problems with the 3.5L Isuzu V6, and the 3.2L from which it evolved, whose likelihood is minimized by sticking to a 3,000 mile or so change interval.
I look forward to feedback. Thanks.
Here's the facts.
Syn oil Mobil 1, Amsoil are as good as any. Mobil 1 han any number of tests that at changing at 7500 miles or 15000 gives very, very little wear after 50,000 to 200,000 miles.
Mobil 1 Has run any number of SAE Sequence IV, IIIE tests at double to quadruple the numbers of hours required. In short dino oils are not even in the game. here.
Syns do not attack seals and gaskets like they use to but they can leak in a seal which has been running dino for say 50,000 miles. Although not necessarily. None of my seals in 8 cars has ever leaked with Mobil 1.
Blends are not worth the money. I understand about 10%. Can't prove the exact %.
My opinion any syn in the engine is good. Personally, as I have said many times before. Use a good filter (Pure 1, Amsoil, Mobil 1 Delco Ultraguard) Start with one or two quarts of syn with a good oil. I have been told by lub engineers 3 years ago that Havoline is best??????
My comfort level is once a year for my Corsica, with filter at 6 month. For the Toyota truck (22RE engine) 10 months filter at 5 months. When the oil goes from honey to very dark honey, I change. Syn used in a sound engine will use 1 to 2 ounces per 1000 miles. Works for me.
Later
Concur that blends are a waste of money. Either stay with dino or switch but I don't see any advantage to a blend and if I did I would blend my own.
As for blending, it's probably perfectly safe to do. I've been doing it for over 10 years in my power equipment with no bad results. On the contrary, I get reduced oil consumption, the engines are easier to start and they seem to run smoother.
For the most part I think that the 'taboo' of blending synthetics with petroleum oil is an old wives' tale. If you look on the bottle, it says they're compatible with conventional oil. To meet either an API or SAE classification, they HAVE to be. I'd like to say I've topped-off some of my cars that run synthetic with dead-dino oil but that isn't true. The cars I have that run synthetic never burn any oil ... even the ones with 100,000 or more miles on them. They never need topping off.
I read somewhere that synthetic blends were no more than 20% synthetic. Even at that 'high' amount, the oil is NOT a good deal. look at the shelf prices involved and do the math. For a 5 qt. change, it is cheaper to buy 1 quart of synthetic and 4 qts. conventional oil of the same brand than it is to buy 5 quarts of a blend ... and at least you KNOW you have a full 20% synthetic in your motor.
Oh, and just because an oil looks clean on the dipstick, that isn't necessarily a good thing. It might be that the oil is failing at preventing the build up of varnish and sludge inside the motor. In other words, the cleaning properties the oil is supposed to have might not be working properly.
--- Bror Jace
Anyway, no need to waste this forums time on company histories or which is better, will never know. SO, one should go with what one has had good luck with and one feels comfortable with.
Also agree that clean oil is not necessarily a good thing but oil analysis for me tells the story. who knows, some manufacturers may actually place an additive in the oil to turn it darker sooner for those people that change oil based on color!!!!!
You don't want to argue/debate ... but here we are anyway. Amsoil's first formula was a disaster which is why they they had to switch to the same kind of base stocks Mobil uses. No, I'm sorry but I don't consider them the equal of the bigger companies. They don't even make/refine their own product. They buy PAO from other companies ... like Mobil.
"RedLine is geared more towards racing, Amsoil the (average) driver."
Redline has racing AND road going (with detergents) formulas. I didn't realize that Amsoil was significantly less expensive than Redline ... but I still won't buy it, not while there are other (more reputable, IMHO) alternatives available.
"As to marketing, whoa, what about Castrol and the false and misleading advertising about Syntec."
What Castrol did was sleazy, I won't buy their stuff anymore either and I recommend others to seek alternatives as well.
"no need to waste this forums time on company histories or which is better, will never know."
I'm not so sure about that. This link no longer works but it had some comments all Amsoil users should know:
http://www.oilandenergy.com.au/proddocs/sohistry.htm
That info will undoubtedly surface again.
Keyrow, I know a man who changed his wife's car (a high-mileage Chrysler sedan) over from dead dino oil to Mobil 1 15W50 and the next day she asked him what he did to the car because it was running "so much better!"
That's the kind of experiences I've had with synthetics as well. >:^)
--- Bror Jace
--- Bror Jace
It's up and running again.
Good find. Thanks.
A couple more questions come to mind: Is Mobil's dino oil considered any good? Also, does Havoline make a full synthetic? I've heard a few comments that Havoline dino oil is one of the best brands of dino oil. I've always considered Valvoline and Castrol to be the high-end dino oil companies in terms of image, but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean their oil is any good.
BTW my owners manual for my Nissan Sentra says not to mix conventional and syn oils. Don't know why. I doubt if they know what they are talking about IMHO.
I didn't think Redline was a full syn. Who says Redline is best other than Redline??
RedLine, I concur, the only people saying Redline is the best is Redline, they have "NO" independent lab test either. Just anecdotal opinions, like mine. At least I have 9 years of oil analysis to back my personal preferences, which is something all people should do, that is, base their opinions on personal documented evidence!!!!!!!
How long should I wait before switching to synthetic on my new truck ?
Thanks
Where have you guys seen it? How much does it cost?
Mobil's web site would have you believe that their Mobil dino oil is a premium motor oil. I've never heard ANY comments anywhere on Mobil's dino oil, which leads me to believe that the people who use it aren't the type of people who care what brand oil they use and therefore don't really talk about it. Mobil's dino oil definitely isn't priced like a premium oil-- it's usually a buck a quart, or even less. Some of the other brands such as Castrol, Valvoline, Quaker State, etc. are pushing past $1.50/quart.
And then there's the little matter of their marketing. On the 1Qt container they say, "get a free T shirt." However, after buying 4Qts and opening the folded flyers tied to the containers, you are told that you must buy 6Qts in order to qualify for 1 T shirt. A T shirt is no big deal but just goes to show how deceptive Castrol has become. I only use Mobil 1 now.
Yeah, be careful of the spell checker here. It bites you on the butt. It'll change an EGR valve into an EAR valve.
I don't know about the rest of you folks, but in my area Castrol Syntec is actually MORE expensive than Mobil1 overall. I've not seen Castrol Syntec lower than $4.25 a quart, but Mobil1 is often $4/qt. My nearest Target store is $3.89/qt. Unfortunately my nearest Sam's Club just ran out of 5W30 cases, which were only $21.49.
To be safe you may want to wait for 1000 miles. You'll hopefully be taking it easy on the vehicle anyway during this time.
Personally Havoline- why go whith it when Mobil 1 clearly has the experience and the market. AS I've mentioned, there is an SAE publication that clearly convinced me to go with Mobil 1. I have also talked to their technical research center and got information that does not go out to the public. This was in connection with my job when I was a working stiff.
Al
Think I will change the factory oil&filter at 1000 miles then do the switch to synthetic at 3000...thanks again adc100.
It's funny about Havoline but I've heard both extremes about that oil. That it is the best dino juice going ... and that it is the worst ... sorta like Quaker State was for a while. Maybe they had a couple bad batches or tried some funky formulation for a year or two? Now, I wonder if their formula is going to change? Weren't they recently bought up by Pennzoil ... who also now owns Quaker State?
For dino oil, I've settled on Valvoline All-Climate. It may not be the best in any given (often somewhat questionable) test but I've never heard a bad thing about it and for dino oil, that's about all I can ask for. Good ole' reliable Valvoline.
adc100, doesn't Havoline have a toll free number where you can call with consumer questions? Ask them if their synthetic formula is PAO (polyalphaolefins) or grade III petroleum and you'll get your answer. If it is 100% PAO, it's almost definitely pretty good ... although I don't like the extreme spread in their 5W40 oil. The STP-like goo (Viscosity Improver) that they use to bridge the summer and winter numbers tends to break down rather quickly and muck up the motor a bit. I doubt it's serious but I think there are better alternatives available ... like a 5W30 or 10W30 which, depending on the mfr. Have little or no VI.
The Nissan manual says not to mix, eh? I think they just want to eliminate variables and they don't want drivers to be throwing a cocktail of God-knows-what in the motor and then having to overhaul it for free if something goes wrong. If there was a problem mixing PAO with dino oil, we'd have heard about it by now. When changing your oil, there is usually a half quart or so that remains throughout the motor after draining. You're always mixing, to a degree, when changing your oil and switch oil types, brands, etc ... whether you know it or not.
About Redline. It is 100% synthetic using polyol esther stocks. They have a lot of serious, technical info on their site (not merely anecdotal, armtdm) unlike the nonsense on the sites of Royal Purple and a couple pure-charlatans (and no, I'm not talking Amsoil here, not quite). Sure, it's biased and one-sided but if someone can point out serious flaws in their testing and analysis, please let me know. I'd be interested in hearing it. Most of the serious racers use Redline in the cars. I remember recently seeing an ad for a tire mfr (Goodyear?) and I looked at the dozen race cars pictured and 11 out of 12 had a Redline sticker showing. I doubt that's by accident and I doubt Redline is paying enough in sponsorship money to justify this. They aren't that well known outside of racing and they haven't gone the MLM route that Amsoil has. It is simple a highly specialized, premium product.
--- Bror Jace
Good product, I use their gear oil, but all these companies use whatever marketing gimmicks they can get their hands on. Plus, the prices for Redline vary considerably from dealer to dealer. Most dealers are actually cheaper then the home office too. There appears to be no standard pricing schedule from what I have seen. I called multiple dealers and the HO when I was purchasing there gear oil.
Later guys,
Time for a bloody Mary.
Later
ttyl
Any thoughts about the low level, Alcan?
Al
artdm: "Well, it seems to me (Redline) has gone the MLM route ...
Nope. multi-level marketing is selling through people who have 1 line of products they sell on a person-to-person basis without a proper retail store. Sellers/Jobbers are encouraged to sign other people on as distributors, etc ... Amway, Shaklee and certain cosmetics are sold this way. MLM relies on lots of person-to-person contact in a non-retail environment, etc ... Redline products are sold by stores like Pep Boys (but only a few products) specialty car shops and mail order companies.
artdm: "Redline may not sponsor a race car but just by giving the oil free they can get their sticker on the car."
I thought about this but then why are they in business? Most of their customers are racers. Redline Oil is virtually unheard of by the general public. Nope, I can't see them giving that much oil away for no reason. Redline might pay a small fee or give SOME product away (as a sponsorship) but in the end they have to make money selling to racers in order to stay afloat. I suppose some racers could be running some other brand of oil regardless but I've never heard one person say anything bad about Redline oil or heard of one team switch away from it because there was something better out there.
ADC100: "I noticed that Quaker State has an 800#. I'd be interested in what they have to say."
I've heard that their customer service is very good. One person on the usenet forums was surprised how knowledgeable they were ... kind of like my experience talking to Valvoline at 1-800-teamval. I still don't expect to be buying Quaker State anytime soon ... old stigmas die hard. >;^} Compare and contrast these companies with Mobil. They have 2 different MSDS sheets for (apparently) two different Mobil 1 5W30 formulations: a regular version and a "GM" version. Try calling their customer service line and asking them what the difference is and they have no knowledge whatsoever. Cute.
--- Bror Jace
If you can make a product cheaply and call it something else, why shouldn't everybody get on the bandwagon? I just hope Mobil 1 hasn't gone that way though and hope it's just a false rumour. I'm going to investigate that one.
I'd like to see how this super-dino oil (Castrol Syntec) would do against a 100% PAO formula like Valvoline Synpower in a stress-test shootout. I doubt we'll ever see an objective test, however. Testing is expensive and I don't see it being in anyone's best interest to pay for the test ... unless they KNOW they'll be the winner.
Maybe Redline will test these formulas against their stuff in the not-too-distant future? At least that chart should show us how the two mainstream lubricants compare to one another.
--- Bror Jace
Al
Pep Boys only carries Redline's fuel injection cleaner, a diesel fuel catalyst and water wetter ... a coolant additive. For most of the lubes, you'll have to go on-line or mail order. I'm ordering some oil from www.manhonda.com which is a Honda Dealership in Connecticut I've dealt with for years. There's also www.myoilshop.com and even redlinesales.com among many others although I have not ordered from those last two.
Years ago, I bought some Redline MTL at a specialty performance (foreign) shop in Providence, RI. There's gotta be a retail place near most people.
--- Bror Jace
Al
Where exactly in New England do you live. You have noted CT, Providence etc.
I have ordered RedLine and not all dealers carry the entire line. This is a problem. Soem the oil, some gear oil but a full line of the product by one dealer has not been my experience.
Yes, few dealers carry Redline's complete line. It's expensive and appeals to a very narrow segment of the market. I even ordered (and paid through the nose for) some MTL from the home office in California.
I've used Water Wetter as well and I can't be sure it's doing anything. I let the anti-freeze go in my Honda for 5 years because at last testing, it tested OK to -25F and looked brand new. I'm not sure this is due to the anti-corrosion properties of the Redline additive or the quality of OEM anti-freeze.
--- Bror Jace
All of the testimonials on this oilshop site were from racing enthusiasts. Not a one from the average driver getting 200,000 miles out of commuting back and forth to work over 10 years. That is what this form is about in my opinion, getting the most out of any engine. I want to see independent lab results and testimonials from the guy going short trips, the housewife doing errands and over 10 years going 200,000 miles. Racing has always been the key to day to day driving upgrades for the manufacturer but there truly is a difference in the parts needed, the specifications and the lubricants. Yes, RedLine is a great oil, (or so they say, again, no independent lab tests) for the day to day driver I am not sure it is any better then the Mobil1, Amsoil or the Valvolines of the world and is certaily very very expensive in comparison.
For those who don't know the URL:
www.redlineoil.com
Perhaps when they add all the detergents, corrosion inhibitors and seal conditioners to the polyol esther stocks, they'll perform no better than PAO. Maybe I'll see a slight difference in the car's performance, maybe not.
Still, I'm a little eager to TRY Redline this summer and if I like it, I'll keep using it. My Honda only takes 3.5 quarts total and consumes no oil between changes. The additional cost over mass-market synthetics is about $2-$2.50 per quart which translates to $20 or so per year. Not a lot of money to spend on experimentation.
Maybe after a time or two I'll switch back to Valvoline and/or Mobil 1. We'll see ...
Oh, and I think I remember that Mobil was accused of selling Grade III stocks as synthetic in their overseas oil formulations. I'm not sure about this and I've lost contact with the chemist that informed me of it. It's worth keeping an eye on, though.
--- Bror Jace
temperatures.
http://mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt
in but since I've read people recommending Pure
One filters here, I'd ask here. First off, where
can we buy Pure One filters....and what makes them
the best....can anyone point me towards any sites
that give studies of different oil filters?
Also, my local autoshop was recommending a brand
called Wix I think....said it was much better
than the Frams...anyone ever heard of this brand
and is it really better?
I saw some Mobil full synthetic 5w30 at my local
shop....anyone know if they add any additives to
this particular one to stretch the range?
Thanks for any replies.
Why Pure One? Do not want lose time on search, and there are only two brands of premium filters available at the Pep Boys. The other is Delco Ultra, costs $10.
I believe, there is substantial difference between stock (paper) filters and the premium (fibre) ones. Does pay with longer oil change intervals. On the other hand, the difference between premium filters, probably, is less substantial. "The law of diminishing returns".
For the same reason I am using Mobil 1 synthetic oil. Have a good reputation, and easy to find/buy.
All brand of synthetic oil costs the same $4.49 at our Pep Boys: Valvoline, Penzoil, Castrol, etc. So, why experiment?
On the other hand, such brands as Amsoil, Red Line, Royal Purple, etc. are not ready available. Even if they are really better somewhat (I cannot know), the difference in quality probably does not pay for the trouble of mail-ordering...
Though, this is just my believes, not facts.