Midsize Sedans 2.0

stickguy · October 2017

I sat in the Camry. Did not really like the interior, particularly the bulky console and dash on the passenger side. At least from pictures, that aspect goes to the Accord. As does styling. But of course, both of those items are highly subjective.

benjaminh · October 2017

The 2018 Accord my family might be interested in at some point would probably be either an EX or an EX hybrid. The LX is better equipped than any Accord has ever been, and yet lacks key features that you get on the EX. As we all know, Honda doesn't sell cars with individual options but my trim levels, but here's a very subjective listing of what each added feature of the EX is "worth" to me personally to see if it makes the $3900 difference in price "worth it."

http://hondanews.com/releases/2018-accord-specifications-features

8" Touch screen with AndroidAuto etc.: $1000 (works better than built-in navi)
Moonroof: $800
Blind spot monitoring and traffic cross-check: $800
Smart entry w walk away auto lock: $500
Heated mirrors: $300
Active shutter grill: $100
LED fog lights: $300
Driver side seatback pocket: $100
60/40 folding rear seat: $300
Heated seats: $400
12-way power driver's seat: $500
180 watt audio w XM/HD 8 speakers: $400
HondaLink: $200
Laminated side glass/other noise reduction: $400
Fancier alloy wheels: $200
Remote start: $300
Rear vents: $300

Seems to add up to c. $6k+ for me personally, making EX at msrp $27,470 worth it for me over the LX.

Here's some more info on the 2018 Accord....

http://hondanews.com/releases/2018-honda-accord-press-kit-overview

benjaminh · October 2017

This seems like a goofy and potentially annoying feature on the 2018 Accord, but maybe it works? Hasn't Mercedes had something like this for a while now?

"Driver Attention Monitor
New for the 2018 Accord, on highway and arterial roads the Driver Attention Monitor continually monitors and assesses driver behavior behind the wheel to help determine if the driver is becoming inattentive – and then if so, warn the driver to take a break. The system uses input from the Electric Power Steering (EPS) to measure both the frequency and severity of the driver's steering inputs to gauge their level of awareness with four gradients.

When the Driver Attention Monitor is activated, the driver is first alerted by a coffee cup icon and a 4-level bar graph that is displayed on the Driver Information Interface (DII) below the speedometer and tachometer. The bar graph indicates full attention when four white bar elements are illuminated. As the driver attention drops, fewer and fewer bars are illuminated. When the number of bars drops to two, a message inviting the driver to take a break is illuminated. If the driver continues driving and the graph drops to the lowest level of one bar, a beeper sounds and the steering wheel vibrates, prompting the driver to pay closer attention or take a rest break. (See the Interior section for more information.)"

http://hondanews.com/releases/2018-honda-accord-press-kit-safety-and-driver-assistive?page=2

stickguy · October 2017

MB has had that feature for a while now.

To me, certain features are required and missing them is an auto fail, regardless of price. LX is in that category. But the EX is the sweet spot. Wonder how much $ the hybrid will be when it comes out?

benjaminh · October 2017

According to Honda, the seats are improved....

"The Accord's all-new front bucket seats are designed to provide comfortable support for a wide range of body types, along with secure lateral support for cornering. For greater shoulder support, the seatbacks are 4.9 inches taller than in the previous-generation Accord. New high-accuracy urethane padding is used with varying density, depending on the location on the seat. More lightly loaded areas of the seat like the thigh support area have lower density foam, while the hip area has high rebound resistance urethane for a more stable, secure feel. The driver's seat in the LX is manually adjustable for fore-and-aft, seatback angle and height adjustment. All other trims feature power-operated adjustments, along with four-way adjustable lumbar support, for a total of 12-way power adjustability....Heated front seats are standard in the Accord EX and above. Heating includes both the seat bottom cushions and front seatbacks. The new 3-level front seat heater controls are positioned within easy reach, just below the climate control system controls."

http://hondanews.com/releases/2018-honda-accord-press-kit-interior?page=2

benjaminh · October 2017

And here's an explanation of walk away lock, which is new on this Accord. Do some other cars already have this?

"Included on EX and above trims, the new Walk Away Door Lock feature automatically locks the Accord when the driver leaves the vehicle with the key fob. This hands-free locking capability adds everyday convenience that is especially useful when the driver has his or her hands full or is distracted. In typical use, when all doors are closed and the driver walks away, the Accord will automatically lock when the key holder’s distance from the vehicle exceeds 6.5 feet for two seconds or more, and when no other key is detected inside the vehicle. An audible buzzer sounds and the hazard lights flash to confirm that the vehicle has locked. The Walk Away Door Lock feature is programmable, and may be turned on or off as the driver prefers."

stickguy · October 2017

I love that auto lock feature. I hate standing with my hand on the handle waiting for my wife to finish getting out of the car. This is a good gadget!

I do recall one negative to the 2015 I looked at was the seat back was slightly short, and hit my shoulders a funny way. But I probably made a mountain out of a molehill there.

suydam · October 2017

I like that feature too!

akirby · October 2017

Many people think Ford's Autolock feature does this but it doesn't. Ford Autolock just locks the doors when the vehicle starts moving.

I like the feature. I don't know of anyone else doing it this way today. There could be times where you want to leave the vehicle unlocked when you walk away and you might not remember to disable it, but I think that would be rare.

ab348 · October 2017

My Cadillac has auto-lock when you exit the vehicle with the fob.

pensfan83 · October 2017

Same with the TLX. Step outside the vehicle, close the door, and within 5 seconds or so the doors lock and you get an audible confirmation beep. If you don't like it you can turn it off.

andres3 · October 2017

benjaminh said:
Car and Driver mentioned one of my concerns for the 2018 Accord—reduced rear visibility. It's supposed to be ok, but not as good as the current generation.

Acceleration with the 1.5T is also a bit of a letdown. I figured that with the turbo + the weight loss of more than 100 pounds that the new Accord would be slightly faster than the old one. But it's just the same 0-60. And the brakes for the 2018 apparently aren't quite as good. Hmmm. Well, can't win em all...

Honda's 2.4 engine was a star 4-cylinder model. I imagine it would have been even faster if they'd of given it a decent transmission. Maybe a "Special Edition" low cost model with the old 2.4 but the new 10-speed auto.

andres3 · October 2017

akirby said:

benjaminh said:
Just a preference. Car and Driver mentioned it too.
I get that it's something you notice, but I still don't understand why people say it's a safety issue unless they actually believe that you can have a car in your "blind spot" and not be able to see it leading to an accident. Which is complete nonsense.

A lot of safety comes down to human perception, even if flawed. For example, people might think speed kills, but fly airlines that go far faster than any car. Or even vice versa, won't fly, but don't mind being in a car (airlines have better safety records than automobiles).

akirby · October 2017

andres3 said:

A lot of safety comes down to human perception, even if flawed. For example, people might think speed kills, but fly airlines that go far faster than any car. Or even vice versa, won't fly, but don't mind being in a car (airlines have better safety records than automobiles).

That one irks me to no end. Every time someone goes off the road on a curve they say speed was a factor. Unless you're going 80-100 mph it's not the speed - it's not paying attention or simply running off the road. And going 5-10 mph over the limit is almost never a safety issue.

My wife thinks driving a Ferrari or Porsche 911 on a dry racetrack at 100 mph with an instructor in the passenger seat is orders of magnitude more dangerous than her driving 80 mph on a crowded interstate with head on traffic.

andres3 · October 2017

akirby said:

andres3 said:

A lot of safety comes down to human perception, even if flawed. For example, people might think speed kills, but fly airlines that go far faster than any car. Or even vice versa, won't fly, but don't mind being in a car (airlines have better safety records than automobiles).
That one irks me to no end. Every time someone goes off the road on a curve they say speed was a factor. Unless you're going 80-100 mph it's not the speed - it's not paying attention or simply running off the road. And going 5-10 mph over the limit is almost never a safety issue.

My wife thinks driving a Ferrari or Porsche 911 on a dry racetrack at 100 mph with an instructor in the passenger seat is orders of magnitude more dangerous than her driving 80 mph on a crowded interstate with head on traffic.

Make the speed limit low enough and the statistics are self-serving. Of course many accidents involve a "speeding" vehicle, because the speed limit is so low everyone is always going faster. If you just by default assume (for your statistical model), as many gov't and insurance agencies do, that speed and crashes are linked and correlated (without even a tid bit of real data to back it up), then those false assumptions lead to the inevitable false conclusions.

Truth is the vast majority of accidents happen at low speed.

brian125 · October 2017

Very True majority of auto accident injury claims occur at relatively low speeds 20 mph or less.

benjaminh · October 2017

The top sellers in sedans in Sept. The new Camry appears to be a hit. But the Civic still has a chance of beating it this calendar year....

Civic 35,452 +26%

Camry 34,732 +13%

Corolla 30,931 -1%

Accord 29,789 +9%

Malibu 23,989 +12%

Fusion 21,253 +3%

Sentra 19,128 +40%

So far this year, Civic sales total 284,380 while Camry sales are at 282,507.

The Altima seems to have dropped out of the top 20. Perhaps they've slowed down on selling them as rentals?

http://www.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

benjaminh · October 2017

Each generation of Accord, as far back as I can remember reading magazine articles about it, is claimed to have a more solid body, made of more solid steel. For instance, here's what Car and Driver said about the new 2003 Accord way back in the Fall of 2002....

"It certainly is more good, even in categories where the last Accord seemed to be as good as a car needed to be. Body rigidity, for example, improves 27 percent (in torsion), according to Honda, going from bank-vault to Fort Knox solid."

Probably similar things are said about the Camry, etc.

Anyway, the 2003 Accord was more solid than the 2002, which I actually owned. And by 2008 Honda was using small quantities of advanced high strength steel in the Accord to make the ride more pleasant, but also to increase crash protection. In 2013, the amount of high grade steel was increased significantly. And for 2018, according to Honda....

"57 percent of the Accord body is high-strength steel. Super high-strength "hot stamped" steel comprises 29 percent of the body structure, more than double the amount used in the previous-generation Accord Sedan and the highest for any mass-produced Honda. This directly contributes to improved stiffness and reduced mass for the 2018 Accord unibody (see below). Selected use of high-performance adhesives in critical areas further contribute to the new unibody's stiffness, helping to reduce noise and vibration, while improving ride and handling. All of these structural improvements also help reduce mass, directly contributing to increased fuel efficiency."

http://hondanews.com/honda-automobiles/channels/accord/releases/2018-honda-accord-body-and-exterior

Some of the steel used now is up to 1500 Megapascals in strength, compared to 270 for regular steel.

Again, similar things are probably true about the Camry, but as far as I know Toyota doesn't release such precise technical and engineering details in their press releases. Just a guess, but I think this may be because Soichiro Honda was an engineer, while one of the founders of Toyota was a banker....

Anyway, what I don't quite understand, is that Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford, Nissan, everyone is building their cars in more solid ways, and have more advanced safety equipment, and yet prices when adjusted for inflation seem to have fallen. I don't think anyone outside of a luxury maker has more "super high strength steel" than a Honda, but anyway, they all have more of it, and it's more expensive. Plus there are all the driver assist features, anti lock brakes, bluetooth, etc. Plus the cars are actually larger today.

But my 2002 Accord LX had an msrp of c. $19k., which adjusted for inflation would be $26k today. It was a really nice car, but bare bones car compared to a car today. And yet the 2018 Accord LX has a starting msrp of $24k.

I'm sure there are manufacturing efficiencies, etc., but I think part of it is that the market for midsize sedans is brutally competitive, and is also declining, which is holding down prices.

benjaminh · October 2017

Ford's cost cutting hits Fusion complexity. Development costs are being cut for cars, options simplified....

http://www.autonews.com/article/20171003/OEM02/171009909/ford-hackett-strategic-plan-wall-street

"He said the automaker would develop new vehicles faster, shift $7 billion in product-development funding from cars to more profitable light trucks....The automaker said that shift in spending on light-vehicle development would result in fewer car nameplates but did not provide specifics. It did not say it would exit any vehicle segments, but rather that it would continue in a more focused, reduced manner....It also plans to simplify what vehicles customers can order....it's moving from 35,000 combinations in the current Fusion to 96.

"We really offered too many options," Hackett said.

benjaminh · October 2017

To be blunt, Toyota spent a fortune developing the all-new Camry. Literally billions and billions of dollars. Same for Honda and the new Accord. It's not clear that Ford is willing or able to do that for the next Fusion. Ford has already cut labor costs on the Fusion by making it in Mexico, but that didn't seem to be enough....

benjaminh · October 2017

stickguy said:
Brakes is more likely a tire issue. But overall sounds positive. The performance is fine by me, especially with the fantastic MPG. Looks like the driving experience is going to be good too, a nice change over my sonata (aka Korean Buick).

Pretty good pricing on the EX at least. By Christmas, will be able to roll one of them for $25k and .9% financing most likely!

With destination the msrp of a 2018 Accord EX is $28,345. Until Honda offers incentives, the markup on these cars is at most 10%, and so I think before when you guessed that you might be able to get as much 10% off imho that's a better guess probably than 25k, which is almost 12%. Small difference, I know, but.... Also, I know this isn't a popular point of view, but the salesperson needs to make a living just like the rest of us. I'm all in favor of big discounts, but maybe there's a balance somewhere there between our desire to get a good deal and their need to earn a little bit of money out of it. Just my 2 cents.

Earlier you wondered about the price difference between the regular EX and EX hybrid. Because of that torque news article suggesting a big price cut, it seems like the c. $3000 price difference between regular and hybrid models of the Accord right now might go down to as low as $1000 at the EX level. At least that's what I'm hoping, although that may be unrealistic. But if the difference is c. $1k, that would be made up by gas savings in just a little more than 2 years. If Honda really wants the hybrid to be a sales success, I think the "payback rate" needs to be less than 3 years. Right now with the 2018 Camry Hybrid LE, it takes c. 8 years before you save enough on gas to pay back what it costs over a regular 2018 Camry LE.

imidazol97 · October 2017

benjaminh said:
The top sellers in sedans in Sept. The new Camry appears to be a hit.
Camry 34,732 +13%
l

Are those Camry sales 2018's? I believe that's the 2017 and few 18 models together. Hardly proof of public love. The only 18 Camry's I've seen appear to be more likely rentals.

stickguy · October 2017

Honda mastered the minimal configuration concept. A few trim levels, 2 engines, 2 tranny, and pick your color. Much easier.

Mini, where I was last night, has a crazy amount of customization. Build however you want pretty much.

akirby · October 2017

Accord and Camry are Honda and Toyota's F150. Flagship, cash cow. Of course they're going to spend more on it.

Fusion was on the right path with a great global platform (shared with European Mondeo) but Mark Fields got greedy and cut the refresh budget and delayed the new model so it's essentially unchanged since 2013 except for the sport 2.7L turbo engine. Hackett is fixing that now so expect a new Fusion in the next 2 years or so, probably on the same platform. That should put it back into a solid 3rd place. They're not abandoning it. The vehicles being cut are C-Max, Taurus and probably Fiesta in North America. Ka, B-Max, S-Max and Galaxy may get cut in MOW.

Ford needed to cut down on the options. We bought a 2016 MKX Reserve - the highest trim level not counting Black Label. There were still 5 separate option packages that included adaptive cruise control, LED headlamps, upgraded sound system and other things that should have been standard on the highest trim package. Ridiculous. We ended up foregoing the adaptive cruise and automatic braking because we didn't want to wait 8 weeks to order this time.

ab348 · October 2017

I hope Ford finds ways to reduce cost by reducing redundancy and complexity in its offerings as opposed to using cheaper materials and designs. They are not exactly a paragon of high quality as it is.

berri · October 2017

One reason Toyota Camry development costs are so high is that it was actually designing a new platform that will be used on multiple vehicles down the road. So all of those costs are not really directly Camry unique.

pensfan83 · October 2017

If anyone thinks the combinations possible for Fusions are high I can't even imagine what they are for the F-150. Going through the car buying process I really appreciate Acura's (and Honda's) simplified approach. Pick the trim based on the options you want, pick the color, and off you go.

andres3 · October 2017

benjaminh said:
Each generation of Accord, as far back as I can remember reading magazine articles about it, is claimed to have a more solid body, made of more solid steel. For instance, here's what Car and Driver said about the new 2003 Accord way back in the Fall of 2002....

"It certainly is more good, even in categories where the last Accord seemed to be as good as a car needed to be. Body rigidity, for example, improves 27 percent (in torsion), according to Honda, going from bank-vault to Fort Knox solid."

Probably similar things are said about the Camry, etc.

Anyway, the 2003 Accord was more solid than the 2002, which I actually owned. And by 2008 Honda was using small quantities of advanced high strength steel in the Accord to make the ride more pleasant, but also to increase crash protection. In 2013, the amount of high grade steel was increased significantly. And for 2018, according to Honda....

"57 percent of the Accord body is high-strength steel. Super high-strength "hot stamped" steel comprises 29 percent of the body structure, more than double the amount used in the previous-generation Accord Sedan and the highest for any mass-produced Honda. This directly contributes to improved stiffness and reduced mass for the 2018 Accord unibody (see below). Selected use of high-performance adhesives in critical areas further contribute to the new unibody's stiffness, helping to reduce noise and vibration, while improving ride and handling. All of these structural improvements also help reduce mass, directly contributing to increased fuel efficiency."

http://hondanews.com/honda-automobiles/channels/accord/releases/2018-honda-accord-body-and-exterior

Some of the steel used now is up to 1500 Megapascals in strength, compared to 270 for regular steel.

Again, similar things are probably true about the Camry, but as far as I know Toyota doesn't release such precise technical and engineering details in their press releases. Just a guess, but I think this may be because Soichiro Honda was an engineer, while one of the founders of Toyota was a banker....

Anyway, what I don't quite understand, is that Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford, Nissan, everyone is building their cars in more solid ways, and have more advanced safety equipment, and yet prices when adjusted for inflation seem to have fallen. I don't think anyone outside of a luxury maker has more "super high strength steel" than a Honda, but anyway, they all have more of it, and it's more expensive. Plus there are all the driver assist features, anti lock brakes, bluetooth, etc. Plus the cars are actually larger today.

But my 2002 Accord LX had an msrp of c. $19k., which adjusted for inflation would be $26k today. It was a really nice car, but bare bones car compared to a car today. And yet the 2018 Accord LX has a starting msrp of $24k.

I'm sure there are manufacturing efficiencies, etc., but I think part of it is that the market for midsize sedans is brutally competitive, and is also declining, which is holding down prices.

There's also rampant de-contenting, as some have noted. Even Honda isn't immune to this (no CD player). Making the cars lighter may be more expensive, but it helps in multiple areas (less distribution and shipping and destination costs for one, less fuel to move the parts for fabrication and ultimate delivery).

Beyond Safety, which most people (fortunately) don't have to experience a collision to find out, a rigid well-built chassis contributes to lighter weight, but stronger more rigid frames, which means better handling, better fuel economy and a better "feel." You either appreciate this as a driver, or you don't. Most true enthusiasts do. Even Kia/Hyundai have made weight reduction strides, but in some of them, I feel as if perhaps it's extra thin sheet metal, and other concessions reducing the weight.

I know in my Audi, it is as light as it can be while still maintaining that bank vault build quality. I went from Honda '03 Accord LX V6 Coupe to my string of Audi's, that says something about Honda being good for a non-luxury make.

andres3 · October 2017

stickguy said:
Honda mastered the minimal configuration concept. A few trim levels, 2 engines, 2 tranny, and pick your color. Much easier.

Mini, where I was last night, has a crazy amount of customization. Build however you want pretty much.

The downside to limited trim levels is that you could end up spending $3,000 more than you wanted to just to get one single 1,000 dollar feature. If someone else (a competitor) configures a car more to your exact liking, that's a $2,000 advantage as you don't place much value on things you don't want or use.

benjaminh · October 2017

midsize sales

Camry 34,732 +13%

Accord 29,789 +9%

Fusion 21,253 +3%

Altima 16,569 -34%

Optima 9,982 +10%

Sonata 9,889 -36%

Passat 4,636 -27%

Legacy 3,902 -35.3%

Mazda6 3,036 -25.1%

Big declines for Altima, Sonata, Passat, Legacy, and the Mazda6....

andres3 · October 2017

benjaminh said:
midsize sales

Camry 34,732 +13%

Accord 29,789 +9%

Fusion 21,253 +3%

Altima 16,569 -34%

Optima 9,982 +10%

Sonata 9,889 -36%

Passat 4,636 -27%

Legacy 3,902 -35.3%

Mazda6 3,036 -25.1%

Big declines for Altima, Sonata, Passat, Legacy, and the Mazda6....

Mazda needs a Mazda Speed 6 with a beige interior in the worst way.
What they are doing isn't working, at least sales wise. Not sure how profitable they are.

stickguy · October 2017

So they can sell maybe 10 of them?

andres3 · October 2017

stickguy said:
So they can sell maybe 10 of them?

I'd maybe get one in 23 months, so 11, not 10.

nyccarguy · October 2017

pensfan83 said:
If anyone thinks the combinations possible for Fusions are high I can't even imagine what they are for the F-150. Going through the car buying process I really appreciate Acura's (and Honda's) simplified approach. Pick the trim based on the options you want, pick the color, and off you go.

There is something to be said about the simplicity of how Honda/Acura does things. You'll always have the one guy that cries: "Why can't you give me a Red Exterior with a Brown Cloth Interior, Navigation, no sunroof, & a 6-speed stick? Never again Acura!"

andres3 · October 2017

nyccarguy said:

pensfan83 said:
If anyone thinks the combinations possible for Fusions are high I can't even imagine what they are for the F-150. Going through the car buying process I really appreciate Acura's (and Honda's) simplified approach. Pick the trim based on the options you want, pick the color, and off you go.
There is something to be said about the simplicity of how Honda/Acura does things. You'll always have the one guy that cries: "Why can't you give me a Red Exterior with a Brown Cloth Interior, Navigation, no sunroof, & a 6-speed stick? Never again Acura!"

Lack of trims and options and color selection certainly makes it more of a commodity that you can price shop. I like that part. A Honda is almost like pricing a raw material with the level of standardization in trims. And there are a lot of Honda dealerships in CA.

roadburner · October 2017

andres3 said:

stickguy said:
Honda mastered the minimal configuration concept. A few trim levels, 2 engines, 2 tranny, and pick your color. Much easier.

Mini, where I was last night, has a crazy amount of customization. Build however you want pretty much.
The downside to limited trim levels is that you could end up spending $3,000 more than you wanted to just to get one single 1,000 dollar feature. If someone else (a competitor) configures a car more to your exact liking, that's a $2,000 advantage as you don't place much value on things you don't want or use.

That's one of the reasons I picked my MS3 over a GTI, the VW option bundles would force me to pay for a raft of "features" I didn't want...

nyccarguy · October 2017

andres3 said:

nyccarguy said:

pensfan83 said:
If anyone thinks the combinations possible for Fusions are high I can't even imagine what they are for the F-150. Going through the car buying process I really appreciate Acura's (and Honda's) simplified approach. Pick the trim based on the options you want, pick the color, and off you go.
There is something to be said about the simplicity of how Honda/Acura does things. You'll always have the one guy that cries: "Why can't you give me a Red Exterior with a Brown Cloth Interior, Navigation, no sunroof, & a 6-speed stick? Never again Acura!"
Lack of trims and options and color selection certainly makes it more of a commodity that you can price shop. I like that part. A Honda is almost like pricing a raw material with the level of standardization in trims. And there are a lot of Honda dealerships in CA.

Right. You know that every dealership that has an Accord Touring or MDX SH AWD has the exact same MSRP and options. If there is a slight variance it is most likely due to one vehicle having a few dealer installed accessories.

Doesn't work with a lot of other manufacturers. My Dad bought a 2010 Tahoe LTZ. The Sticker Price was in the $58 or $59K range. The truck had NAV, Rear DVD, Sunroof, & Blind Spot Monitors. Fast forward to March of 2012. Chevy has some serious deals on leftover 2011 Tahoes plus 0% financing for 72 months. The dealer found the truck he wanted (2011 Black LTZ Tahoe) that had a slightly higher MSRP than his 2010 did. We assumed it had all the same options. We made the mistake of not checking the options before we signed the papers. It had the Nav, Sunroof, Rear DVD Player, the Trailer Brake Control, & Max Towing Package (transmission cooler), but NO Blind Spot Monitors.

ab348 · October 2017

benjaminh said:

Mazda6 3,036 -25.1%

Big declines for Altima, Sonata, Passat, Legacy, and the Mazda6....

When was the last time the Mazda 6 had a sales increase reported? Seems like every month it is down in the double digits.

benjaminh · October 2017

ab348 said:

benjaminh said:

Mazda6 3,036 -25.1%

Big declines for Altima, Sonata, Passat, Legacy, and the Mazda6....
When was the last time the Mazda 6 had a sales increase reported? Seems like every month it is down in the double digits.

Kinda sad.

The Mazda6 is a really good car too. I've owned Mazdas and I think they're a lot of fun to drive. Because of the slow sales they are probably a real bargain right now, although I guess that's true of almost all midsize cars—except maybe for the all new Camry and all new Accord.

pensfan83 · October 2017

andres3 said:
Lack of trims and options and color selection certainly makes it more of a commodity that you can price shop. I like that part. A Honda is almost like pricing a raw material with the level of standardization in trims. And there are a lot of Honda dealerships in CA.

I agree 100%

brian125 · October 2017

@ben where was the 17 Malibu sales # in your Monthly mix ??

With Altima sales really slipping and reviews behind the top midsizers you could bet Nissan will have deep discounts to buy / lease this vehicle. If GM was smart with there excellent 2018 Malibu model they should get creative w there discounts too.... knock the bottom dwellers sales further down and possible steal sales from Optima , Camry , Fusion sales .

benjaminh · October 2017

brian125 said:
@ben where was the 17 Malibu sales # in your Monthly mix ??

With Altima sales really slipping and reviews behind the top midsizers you could bet Nissan will have deep discounts to buy / lease this vehicle. If GM was smart with there excellent 2018 Malibu model they should get creative w there discounts too.... knock the bottom dwellers sales further down and possible steal sales from Optima , Camry , Fusion sales .

Good catch. I missed that one. The very well rated Malibu is a sales success, with a total of 23,989 sold last month, an increase of 12%.

brian125 · October 2017

ab348

Mazda6 profit margin is pretty slim with these new declining sales numbers. At what point does Mazda say lets try something different. My neighbors 26yr old kid leased a 2016 mazda6... He cant wait to get rid off it because Front seats are to contoured , very un-comfortable when driving.

benjaminh · October 2017

brian125 said:
ab348

Mazda6 profit margin is pretty slim with these new declining sales numbers. At what point does Mazda say lets try something different. My neighbors 26yr old kid leased a 2016 mazda6... He cant wait to get rid off it because Front seats are to contoured , very un-comfortable when driving.

I think it's beyond slim. I think Mazda, Ford, Nissan, Hyundai, etc. have probably collectively lost billions of dollars on midsize cars in the last couple of years. My guess is that only Toyota and Honda are making a small profit on the shrinking midsize market, and because of the many billions of dollars in development costs that T and H threw at their all-new cars, my guess is there's not really much profit there when that's really counted.

Imho almost these companies are making their big profits on SUVs at this point.

One exception is the new Honda Civic, which has been a big hit, and has sold with only medium-sized discounts. Honda took a gamble with making the Civic "best-in-class" in as many ways as they could, which no doubt made the car more expensive to build, but at this point the Civic sells at a "premium" of c. $1000-$5000 over the likes of Focus, Elantra, and even Corolla—and so it's paid off for them. Similar thing is going on with the new Accord as far as I can tell. They are counting on it being "best in class" and in a different category from a Sonata, Fusion, or whatever else. It's not clear if they quite got there or not. But if people turn out to be willing to pay extra to own an Accord, like people pay extra for a Civic, the gamble will have worked. Honda has priced the Accord attractively, but after that they are counting on not having to do big incentives, again imho.

The new Camry seems very close, but some reports of the so-so interior materials on the base LE, and other issues (road noise, transmission performance) might possibly indicate that Toyota's accountants pulled them back a bit in the final execution of the car. It still seems like a very good car, but....

Anyway, we will wait for the comparison tests. But most of the early reviewers of the 2018 Accord seem already to be giving it a slight edge over the 2018 Camry.

benjaminh · October 2017

I think it's beyond slim. I think Mazda, Ford, Nissan, Hyundai, etc. have probably collectively lost billions of dollars on midsize cars in the last couple of years. My guess is that only Toyota and Honda are making a small profit on the shrinking midsize market, and because of the many billions of dollars in development costs that T and H threw at their all-new cars, my guess is there's not really much profit there when that's really counted.

Imho almost these companies are making their big profits on SUVs at this point.

One exception is the new Honda Civic, which has been a big hit, and has sold with only medium-sized discounts. Honda took a gamble with making the Civic "best-in-class" in as many ways as they could, which no doubt made the car more expensive to build, but at this point the Civic sells at a "premium" of c. $1000-$5000 over the likes of Focus, Elantra, and even Corolla—and so it's paid off for them. Similar thing is going on with the new Accord as far as I can tell. They are counting on it being "best in class" and in a different category from a Sonata, Fusion, or whatever else. It's not clear if they quite got there or not. But if people turn out to be willing to pay extra to own an Accord, like people pay extra for a Civic, the gamble will have worked. Honda has priced the Accord attractively, but after that they are counting on not having to do big incentives, again imho.

The new Camry seems very close, but some reports of the so-so interior materials on the base LE, and other issues (road noise, transmission performance) might possibly indicate that Toyota's accountants pulled them back a bit in the final execution of the car. It still seems like a very good car, but....

Anyway, we will wait for the comparison tests. But most of the early reviewers of the 2018 Accord seem already to be giving it a slight edge over the 2018 Camry.

brian125 · October 2017

My only problem with GM is there crappy looking dash boards/ consoles. . Lets get with the times and move into this century.

benjaminh · October 2017

About 18 years ago I read a fascinating book called Car, by business writer Mary Walton. It was an unprecedented inside look at the design of an all-new car, with behind the scenes access provided. The particular model whose history was written and analyzed was the almost all-new 1996 Taurus, the successor to Ford's blockbuster midsize success from 10 years before. To make a long story short, since the first Taurus had been a huge success, Ford was willing to throw lots of money and engineering muscle into the second generation of it, including some expensive design touches. But, as we know, the crazy oval Taurus, or whatever it's called, was more or less a flop, and instead the Camry and Accord took over from the Taurus the race for 1 and 2 for midsize bestsellers.

Ford had in the story told in this book about the 1990s, engineered and built the mark 2 Taurus to sell at a premium over other midsize cars, and when it didn't, the lead engineer and his team had to go back through and find ways to make the Taurus cheaper to build asap. It's a story that always stuck with me. In some midsize cars that you get as rentals, like the Altima, you can almost see where they had dreams of it being a nice car, but then, over time, and without sales success, it goes from good enough to not so good....

suydam · October 2017

I'm nit sure the Altima is doing that badly. It's #8 in passenger scar sales this month, right behind the Sentra. I think the success of the Rogue has undercut it, as is the case with many of these vehicles.

explorerx4 · October 2017

Last month Ford sold 21k Fusions and 19K Explorers. Honda sold 30k Accords and 10k Pilots.
I'm sure both companies would rather have Ford's mix.
The dealer where I bought my Fusion has a grand total of 3 listed in their inventory. Usually they would have 15-20.

@benjaminh, I've been meaning to get that book. Thanks for posting it.
My wife had a 96 SHO, which looked better than the regular Taurus.
There was not a straight line on that car.
Not available as an ebook, so I ordered a paperback version.

explorerx4 · October 2017

Newest Fusion variant.
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/asset.download.image.web.html/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/2017/04/10/Police-Responder-Hybrid-Sedan-6.jpg

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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