Midsize Sedans 2.0

brian125

explorerx4 said:

Last month Ford sold 21k Fusions and 19K Explorers. Honda sold 30k Accords and 10k Pilots.
I'm sure both companies would rather have Ford's mix.
The dealer where I bought my Fusion has a grand total of 3 listed in their inventory. Usually they would have 15-20.

@benjaminh, I've been meaning to get that book. Thanks for posting it.
My wife had a 96 SHO, which looked better than the regular Taurus.
There was not a straight line on that car.
Not available as an ebook, so I ordered a paperback version.

@explorerx4 .... The 2017 Ford Edge is pretty impressive had about 2 weeks behind the wheel time w/ my friends Edge. Ride & Handling, Craftsmanship top notch. , Nav, 8 ' screen and radio where also very good. Not sure how a 19 or 20' tire rides on other edge models. This one had 18's on them.
The Honda pilot is a big rolling refrigerator surprised they only sold 10k thou.

ab348

The oval Taurus was a really odd car, I wonder what Ford was thinking in designing it. Maybe I should buy the book and find out!

A coworker had one in a really odd Pepto-Bismol pink metallic paint shade called Rose Mist. I don't think they could have sold many in that shade and I don't think I ever saw another.

stickguy

one thing with the mid size cars, in some cases, is they are the platform that the CUVs are built on. So hard to say how much of the development cost belongs to just the car, vs. being spread out over other models. Especially now with all the modular platforms, with many models riding on the same underpinnings basically.

berri

I thought they cleaned up the ovoid Taurus lines a bit with the 2000 update. Regardless, I think they were actually fairly reliable cars for their day. By several years later though they had become rental car hanger queens.

benjaminh

From ttac....

"Camry Crusher: Honda Civic Expands Lead as America’s Best-selling Car
By Timothy Cain on October 4, 2017

....The Camry’s reign as America’s most popular passenger car began in 2002 and has gone uninterrupted since. At the current pace, however, the Camry’s 15-year run is set to end in 2017. The Civic’s 1,153-unit lead over the Camry through the end of August grew to 1,873 units by the end of September thanks to a 35,452-unit performance by American Honda last month. That big Civic jump also drove the compact sedan/coupe/hatch to the top of Honda’s leaderboard, not just in September but on year-to-date terms...."

But the year's not over yet. I think Toyota will put as much cash on the hood as it takes to put Camry over the top for the year. But we'll see.

stickguy

hopefully some maker that has something I want goes all in at the tail end of the year trying to move inventory.

benjaminh

berri said:

I thought they cleaned up the ovoid Taurus lines a bit with the 2000 update. Regardless, I think they were actually fairly reliable cars for their day. By several years later though they had become rental car hanger queens.

As they were restyling it, they were also cheapening it. As sales flopped in 1996, the engineers had orders from Ford to go over the car piece by piece and save hundreds of dollars on the car. They would save a dollar here, $10 bucks there, etc. by putting in cheaper parts, redesigning things, and eliminating features. The car started out as something kind of special, if a bit strange in its styling, but soon it wasn't so special.

And, of course, the Ford Taurus of 1996 is just one case of probably dozens and dozens of cases like this where similar things have happened. In other words, there have been other times when an auto maker has high hopes for a car and invests and engineers some extra quality and features into it. But then when sales don't meet expectations they are sometimes ordered by a company to find ways to make things cheaper.

And not even Honda is immune. In some ways my 2016 Accord is better than my wife's 2013 Accord, but there's a little piece of silvery plastic trim that surround the sound system in my wife's car, which includes the power button, which to my touch is higher quality in the 2013. Someone I believe felt they could save maybe a dollar or so a car by making an identical part out of a slightly cheaper material. It's still good, and it functions just fine, but it doesn't have that slightly special quality feel that my wife's has.

What I learned from reading that book is obvious, but I somehow never realized it before: that engineers, designers, manufacturers, accountants, and executives are often sweating over the smallest details of a car to make it a good car given the total budget they have for the project. I mean, I think they count things pretty much down to the penny. You know, they might be saying this part costs $2.56, but this one here functions just as well for 1.88, but it doesn't feel quite as nice, etc. At launch, they might go with the nicer part, but if sales don't pan out, or big incentives are needed, they are literally told in a rather brutal process "take $600 in costs" or whatever "out of this car asap."

This kind of thinking is what made the 2012 Civic such a scandal. They cut it so much that Consumer Reports wouldn't recommend it, and story after story said, more or less, "Honda used to be something special, but now it's just mediocre." Apparently inside the company this hit like a bomb. Omg, they were apparently saying, we lost what makes a Honda a Honda. We have embarrassed ourselves with this car. As you all know, Honda then went on a crash program to make the car better and nicer, adding padding to the dash, features, sound insulations, styling cues, etc. So this is the opposite of what happened to the 96 Taurus and what usually happens—Honda's president suddenly said, more or less—"add $700 in quality and features to the Civic asap! I want to be able to see it from every angle."

Through a crash program, probably with some people working almost non stop, the 2013 Civic was much improved. It was well received, and they kept improving that almost car every year.

Meanwhile they were also working on the 2016 Civic, and I read a story about that where the design team said if we want to equal the best car in this a class we need a turbo engine. The engine wasn't scheduled to be ready until the 2017 model year, but they invested hundreds of millions of dollars to advance the development of the engine so that it would be ready for 2016. On other things too, apparently the Civic design team got most of what they wanted. And the big success of that model has meant that they haven't had to go on a cost diet. In fact, the success almost certainly encouraged Honda to also spend big on the Accord....

benjaminh

As they were restyling the 1996 Taurus, they were also cheapening it. As sales flopped in 1996, the engineers had orders from Ford to go over the car piece by piece and save hundreds of dollars on the car. They would save a dollar here, $10 bucks there, etc. by putting in cheaper parts, redesigning things, and eliminating features. The car started out as something kind of special, if a bit strange in its styling, but soon it wasn't so special.

And, of course, the Ford Taurus of 1996 is just one case of probably dozens and dozens of cases like this where similar things have happened. In other words, there have been other times when an auto maker has high hopes for a car and invests and engineers some extra quality and features into it. But then when sales don't meet expectations they are sometimes ordered by a company to find ways to make things cheaper.

And not even Honda is immune. In some ways my 2016 Accord is better than my wife's 2013 Accord, but there's a little piece of silvery plastic trim that surround the sound system in my wife's car, which includes the power button, which to my touch is higher quality in the 2013. Someone I believe felt they could save maybe a dollar or so a car by making an identical part out of a slightly cheaper material. It's still good, and it functions just fine, but it doesn't have that slightly special quality feel that my wife's has.

What I learned from reading that book is obvious, but I somehow never realized it before: that engineers, designers, manufacturers, accountants, and executives are often sweating over the smallest details of a car to make it a good car given the total budget they have for the project. I mean, I think they count things pretty much down to the penny. You know, they might be saying this part costs $2.56, but this one here functions just as well for 1.88, but it doesn't feel quite as nice, etc. At launch, they might go with the nicer part, but if sales don't pan out, or big incentives are needed, they are literally told in a rather brutal process "take $600 in costs" or whatever "out of this car asap."

This kind of thinking is what made the 2012 Civic such a scandal. They cut it so much that Consumer Reports wouldn't recommend it, and story after story said, more or less, "Honda used to be something special, but now it's just mediocre." Apparently inside the company this hit like a bomb. Omg, they were apparently saying, we lost what makes a Honda a Honda. We have embarrassed ourselves with this car. As you all know, Honda then went on a crash program to make the car better and nicer, adding padding to the dash, features, sound insulations, styling cues, etc. So this is the opposite of what happened to the 96 Taurus and what usually happens—Honda's president suddenly said, more or less—"add $700 in quality and features to the Civic asap! I want to be able to see it from every angle."

Through a crash program, probably with some people working almost non stop, the 2013 Civic was much improved. It was well received, and they kept improving that generation of Civic almost every year.

Meanwhile, they were also working on the 2016 Civic, and I read a story about that where the design team said if we want to equal the best car in this a class we need a turbo engine. The engine wasn't scheduled to be ready until the 2017 model year, but they invested hundreds of millions of dollars to advance the development of the engine so that it would be ready for the 2016 Civic. On other things too, apparently the Civic design team got most of what they wanted. And the big success of that model has meant that they haven't had to go on a cost diet. In fact, the success almost certainly encouraged Honda to also spend extra big on the Accord....

Michaell

benjaminh said:

About 18 years ago I read a fascinating book called Car, by business writer Mary Walton. It was an unprecedented inside look at the design of an all-new car, with behind the scenes access provided. The particular model whose history was written and analyzed was the almost all-new 1996 Taurus, the successor to Ford's blockbuster midsize success from 10 years before. To make a long story short, since the first Taurus had been a huge success, Ford was willing to throw lots of money and engineering muscle into the second generation of it, including some expensive design touches. But, as we know, the crazy oval Taurus, or whatever it's called, was more or less a flop, and instead the Camry and Accord took over from the Taurus the race for 1 and 2 for midsize bestsellers.

Ford had in the story told in this book about the 1990s, engineered and built the mark 2 Taurus to sell at a premium over other midsize cars, and when it didn't, the lead engineer and his team had to go back through and find ways to make the Taurus cheaper to build asap. It's a story that always stuck with me. In some midsize cars that you get as rentals, like the Altima, you can almost see where they had dreams of it being a nice car, but then, over time, and without sales success, it goes from good enough to not so good....

That book is currently on my bookshelf. A few other books I'd recommend about the automotive industry:

All Corvettes are Red - behind the scenes look at the development of the C5 Corvette
Arrogance and Accords - the Honda and Acura bribing scandal of the 80's and 90's
Taken For a Ride - the Chrysler/MB "merger"

benjaminh

Another report on the 2018 Accord....

"2018 Honda Accord first drive: No more bland
Tony Hunter - Oct 4, 2017

....From the wheelbase to the headroom, it’s brand-spanking new. New engines, new (for the Accord) transmission, new suspension, new trim level, new fake wood, and new real leather. On the outside, the car is less complacent than the prior generation. It’s no longer satisfied with a glance and an acknowledgment that it is indeed in traffic and you must obey the applicable right-of-way laws. It will now require a moment of your time to see it as a serious automobile. 100% LED lighting, all around, on all trim levels. Large grille up front. Tires pushed to the corners. Millimeters taken off the overall length and height of the 2017 model and transferred to the width....

The Accord is unquestionably Honda’s flagship. It’s the USS Enterprise of HondaFleet. During the automaker’s technical presentation, there was a low key sense of “this had better work” running under everything. Four years in development, in a segment that Honda has traditionally, if not outright owned, then certainly locked in a long-term lease, means that this incarnation of Accord can’t afford to lose ground....

Honda made some competitors’ cars available to drive, and so I took advantage of that offer to compare a few flavors of the new Accord with the Toyota Camry XLE and Hyundai Sonata Eco on the twisty roads of northern New Hampshire. It really felt like Honda was punching down. In the case of the Hyundai, both in price and build quality, it clearly was. But I was surprised at how much more poised the Accord felt versus the Camry. Maybe it was the trade between the turbo and two extra cylinders? ....Maybe the fancy new “L-arm” suspension that Honda says is designed to reduce road vibration? ....In any event, the Honda owned those New England autumn roads. The other vehicles were just visiting....I also think that Honda could credibly aim for the lower price points of the fancier luxury brands."

https://www.slashgear.com/2018-honda-accord-first-drive-no-more-bland-04502721/

benjaminh

compact/midsize sales for Sept.

Civic 35,452

Corolla 32,769

Sentra 19,128

Elantra 14,401

Focus 11,751

Forte 10,631

Impreza 6,324

Mazda3 6,112

stickguy

That was a positive review. Can't wait to actually drive one

roadburner

Michaell said:

benjaminh said:

About 18 years ago I read a fascinating book called Car, by business writer Mary Walton. It was an unprecedented inside look at the design of an all-new car, with behind the scenes access provided. The particular model whose history was written and analyzed was the almost all-new 1996 Taurus, the successor to Ford's blockbuster midsize success from 10 years before. To make a long story short, since the first Taurus had been a huge success, Ford was willing to throw lots of money and engineering muscle into the second generation of it, including some expensive design touches. But, as we know, the crazy oval Taurus, or whatever it's called, was more or less a flop, and instead the Camry and Accord took over from the Taurus the race for 1 and 2 for midsize bestsellers.

Ford had in the story told in this book about the 1990s, engineered and built the mark 2 Taurus to sell at a premium over other midsize cars, and when it didn't, the lead engineer and his team had to go back through and find ways to make the Taurus cheaper to build asap. It's a story that always stuck with me. In some midsize cars that you get as rentals, like the Altima, you can almost see where they had dreams of it being a nice car, but then, over time, and without sales success, it goes from good enough to not so good....

That book is currently on my bookshelf. A few other books I'd recommend about the automotive industry:

All Corvettes are Red - behind the scenes look at the development of the C5 Corvette
Arrogance and Accords - the Honda and Acura bribing scandal of the 80's and 90's
Taken For a Ride - the Chrysler/MB "merger"

I also like The Rise and Fall of the American Automobile Industry by Brock Yates.

Michaell

roadburner said:

Michaell said:

benjaminh said:

About 18 years ago I read a fascinating book called Car, by business writer Mary Walton. It was an unprecedented inside look at the design of an all-new car, with behind the scenes access provided. The particular model whose history was written and analyzed was the almost all-new 1996 Taurus, the successor to Ford's blockbuster midsize success from 10 years before. To make a long story short, since the first Taurus had been a huge success, Ford was willing to throw lots of money and engineering muscle into the second generation of it, including some expensive design touches. But, as we know, the crazy oval Taurus, or whatever it's called, was more or less a flop, and instead the Camry and Accord took over from the Taurus the race for 1 and 2 for midsize bestsellers.

Ford had in the story told in this book about the 1990s, engineered and built the mark 2 Taurus to sell at a premium over other midsize cars, and when it didn't, the lead engineer and his team had to go back through and find ways to make the Taurus cheaper to build asap. It's a story that always stuck with me. In some midsize cars that you get as rentals, like the Altima, you can almost see where they had dreams of it being a nice car, but then, over time, and without sales success, it goes from good enough to not so good....

That book is currently on my bookshelf. A few other books I'd recommend about the automotive industry:

All Corvettes are Red - behind the scenes look at the development of the C5 Corvette
Arrogance and Accords - the Honda and Acura bribing scandal of the 80's and 90's
Taken For a Ride - the Chrysler/MB "merger"

I also like The Rise and Fall of the American Automobile Industry by Brock Yates.

You know, I can't say I've read that one. I should pick it up from my library.

I did read "On a Clear Day you can See General Motors", by a certain former GM exec, John DeLorean.

benjaminh

stickguy said:

That was a positive review. Can't wait to actually drive one

We'll be looking forward to your review. Are you planning to go sometime in late October, or wait a bit?

The conclusion to that positive review had a cautionary note....

"As the first year of a new-generation model, there is one thing that gives me pause about this new Accord. The sheer amount of technical wiz-bangery crammed under the hood, and in the dash, and under the rear bench (in the case of the hybrid) virtually guarantees something is bound to go wrong a few months after the fleet leaves the lot. Once the Accord’s first wave of customers puts a few million collective miles on these cars, there will be a recall or two: let’s face it, every car has them. On the other hand, Honda’s typical first generation build tends to be a bit over-engineered. Tolerances are finer, fewer expenses are spared to ensure that quality isn’t a failure factor – because one or two design failures will sneak through.

The Accord team trotted out the theme of the redesign as “Absolute Confidence.” I’ll go ahead and agree that road handling, acceleration, cabin comfort and visibility, curb appeal and sheer joy at highway speed all hit that phrase pretty close to the mark."

stickguy

I'll go as soon as they are out. And buying early build doesn't bother me really.

akirby

My last 3 cars were first year models - 2 were brand new period (2000 Lincoln LS and 2006 Fusion). Never had any serious issues. The 2006 Fusion was almost flawless for 7 years. Had some minor issues on the LS and the 2013 Fusion requiring a couple of dealer visits. But it was totally worth being able to own and drive the vehicles rather than waiting another year or two. I wouldn't have any hesitation with the Accord - just understand you might end up with a warranty repair or two.

suydam

My '13 Accord was first year. It was flawless.

stickguy

That's what warranty is for! My RDX was very early build of a full redesign, and never an issue in 5 years. Knock wood.

andres3

My '03 Accord was a first-year design, and while far from flawless, it performed just fine, and nothing happened that would scare me from another first year model redesign whatsoever.

stickguy

I have faith that Honda did plenty of QC on these. Too important not to.

berri

Heck there is always risk. Buy a vehicle that has been around a few years and you figure the issues are resolved. But, by that time the value analysis begins and cost cutting can lead to new issues.

ab348

benjaminh said:

compact/midsize sales for Sept.

Civic 35,452

Corolla 32,769

Sentra 19,128

Elantra 14,401

Focus 11,751

Forte 10,631

Impreza 6,324

Mazda3 6,112

You left out the Cruze in 4th place at 15,268.

andres3

ab348 said:

benjaminh said:

compact/midsize sales for Sept.

Civic 35,452

Corolla 32,769

Sentra 19,128

Elantra 14,401

Focus 11,751

Forte 10,631

Impreza 6,324

Mazda3 6,112

You left out the Cruze in 4th place at 15,268.

I saw a good looking red Cruze. Must have been a base model as it had those fake plastic wheel hubcaps. The interior fabric looked like a let down on the seats, but other then that, seemed nice enough.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

benjaminh said:

compact/midsize sales for Sept.

Civic 35,452

Corolla 32,769

Sentra 19,128

Elantra 14,401

Focus 11,751

Forte 10,631

Impreza 6,324

Mazda3 6,112

You left out the Cruze in 4th place at 15,268.

After the Malibu was left out of the earlier midsizers listing and the Cruze out of this grouping, it's supportive of my belief that the GM products are just simply ignored by too many based on bad press and/or based on continual stereotyping as JANG (just ain't no good).

While I'm sure the Honda will serve buyers well, there are other vehicles out there. In my area there are other dealers without the drama of the Honda/toyota stores.

I think we need to change the name of this forum to the Honda press release and advertising PR forum--just kidding before you write the beating a dead horse posts--, and move all other discussion of midsize cars to another group, or versa-vicesa.

When this discussion of the new Honda started, there were a couple of videos about the Accord and of the Fusion. I found a video from the same producers but without the comedian who did those two and with a different guy. He admitted that the Malibu was quietest (also true for my 2014 IMHO) and very serviceable. He mentioned a motorcycle engine, 1.5L?, just like the Accord has IIRC and he also mocked the seats because he could invoke motion in the seatback by contorting his body and throwing his weight against it. I'm not sure what that meant, but Jimmy Kimmel would have been proud. LOL

I'll try to find the video again later.

ab348

andres3 said:

I saw a good looking red Cruze. Must have been a base model as it had those fake plastic wheel hubcaps. The interior fabric looked like a let down on the seats, but other then that, seemed nice enough.

Before I got the new ATS I actually was interested in saving a few bucks and getting a Cruze Hatch, so I drove one in Premier trim. It was actually a pretty nice car, let down by a couple of things in my mind. The engine was adequate but nothing more. They really need to offer an upgrade engine as an option or as part of a performance package. The other thing that really bothered me was the headliner. Instead of being a fabric-covered shell it was simply a flocked cardboard-type material that was hard and felt cheap. Really let the car down at that trim level. Aside from that the leather seats were good and the rest of the interior was well-done. A shame they cheaped out on that one item.

roadburner

suydam said:

My '13 Accord was first year. It was flawless.

No problems with my first year 318ti, X3, or M235i. My E39 5er and Mazdaspeed 3 had some issues, but once corrected both cars were essentially trouble-free after...

stickguy

Cruze is nice, though I don't care for styling of the dashboard in the Cruze or Malibu.

And the accord was discussed because it is in process of being released soon, and was actual new info. The other cars are well known.

If it makes you feel better, pretty much no one cared about the Camry release that I recall!

imidazol97

stickguy said:

If it makes you feel better, pretty much no one cared about the Camry release that I recall!

LOL. I might even like the camry if I go to another normal dealer other than the local. The option package on the
current Mbu moves me into a 2.0L turbo engine which I don't need just to get full features. The packaging of
options was talked about earlier. I just want basic grandpa engine that gets 35 mph open highway and all of the premium options including automatic forward braking without a sunroom and zoomzoom engine. So I may be doing more brand shopping like I did for '14 model year purchase on my next purchase.

brian125

KBB review on the 2018 Malibu

https://www.kbb.com/chevrolet/malibu/2018/

suydam

I often think many of these forums are fanpages for VW, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes, none of which interest me. I was enjoying reading about Honda for a change! I actually think we get around to most makes actually. Accord and Camry are generally the two biggest sellers in the midsize category so it makes sense to talk about them.

stickguy

Usually discuss what is the shiny new toy coming out. And in this case, had a couple of people both interested in that specific car, do driving up post count.

Don't worry. If I get fascinated by some other car instead, you will hear about it!

Mr_Shiftright

brian125 said:

KBB review on the 2018 Malibu

https://www.kbb.com/chevrolet/malibu/2018/

Pretty positive!

berri

I've seen several reviews of Camry v. Accord. What I found kind of humorous is that after all the hyperbole it still seems to really just boil down to previous and usual whether you prefer the more sporting personality of the Honda or the more isolated comfort of the Toyota. Duh! They will both do well in the sedan market.

berri

I still think GM needs to come up to modern expectation on interior materials and the like, and feel that it is holding them back. Well, that and a rather crude stop, go system that can't be overridden.

andres3

berri said:

I still think GM needs to come up to modern expectation on interior materials and the like, and feel that it is holding them back. Well, that and a rather crude stop, go system that can't be overridden.

I hate stop-start. I think in the A4 loaner it was defeatable, but perhaps had to do it every time you start the car (not certain)? I'd hire a tuner company to defeat that software programming.

andres3

berri said:

I've seen several reviews of Camry v. Accord. What I found kind of humorous is that after all the hyperbole it still seems to really just boil down to previous and usual whether you prefer the more sporting personality of the Honda or the more isolated comfort of the Toyota. Duh! They will both do well in the sedan market.

There is also a large crowd that cares immensely about durability, and not having to spend a single dollar on unexpected maintenance the first 10 years or 100,000 miles. I think Toyota has fans in that arena, and Honda has fans in that arena, but perhaps they are not in both camps.

akirby

All modern midsized sedans are reliable. The difference between Camcord and the others is not that much although they certainly win the perception award. My 2006 Fusion went 7 years and I only spent $60 on a broken door handle.

What you're seeing now are engineering problems - parts that don't fit with other parts or just a bad part design - or bad parts from suppliers. Once fixed they don't reoccur. Engine and transmission problems are relatively rare across the board.

If you look at the latest JD Power dependability surveys and average the number of expected dealer visits for a problem it's between 1 and 2 visits for everybody with the top 2 being slightly better and the bottom 2 being slightly worse. Everyone else is in the middle and about the same.

pensfan83

andres3 said:

I hate stop-start. I think in the A4 loaner it was defeatable, but perhaps had to do it every time you start the car (not certain)? I'd hire a tuner company to defeat that software programming.

I can honestly say after a week I'm not a big fan either, though for some of the longer traffic lights I admit I have used it. I can defeat mine, but it resets every time the car is shut down. I've found that it's easier to just not fully depress the brake pedal than fiddle with the switch each time.

andres3

akirby said:

All modern midsized sedans are reliable. The difference between Camcord and the others is not that much although they certainly win the perception award. My 2006 Fusion went 7 years and I only spent $60 on a broken door handle.

What you're seeing now are engineering problems - parts that don't fit with other parts or just a bad part design - or bad parts from suppliers. Once fixed they don't reoccur. Engine and transmission problems are relatively rare across the board.

If you look at the latest JD Power dependability surveys and average the number of expected dealer visits for a problem it's between 1 and 2 visits for everybody with the top 2 being slightly better and the bottom 2 being slightly worse. Everyone else is in the middle and about the same.

I think it is arguable how big of a gap exists between the best and worst, but I think we all agree that perceptions are still pretty stubborn. And a lot of Toyota and Honda buyers are loyal to their chosen brand based on those perceptions, and track records. Track records are something you can't erase. Once the damage is done, it is done!

Or vice versa, if they keep making near flawless vehicles, why should they not be loyal?

ab348

My new ATS has stop/start and like the TLX, there is a button to defeat it but you need to remember it every time you start the car. Sometimes the restart is smooth and seamless, but at other times there is a noticeable shake. I don't like it much, but am learning to live with it.

stickguy

My sons A3 has it. Part of his starting routine was to hit the button. Though I think now he leaves it in sport+ mode (or some such) all the time, which defaults it to off.

stickguy

Oh, it has been on a few cars I tested recently. Definitely more noticeable in some brands. Overall though I don't like it.

[Deleted User]

stickguy said:

And yes, the roads around here, especially into philly, really are that bad.

The roads into DC from VA or MD are famous...especially the switch from smooth VA roads into DC, which spreads all it's money allotted by congress into low income households who live rent and food - cost free with vouchers and food stamps

The roads have giant holes in them, speed camera's everywhere in lower DC, where all the VA dollars are, etc. I have a buddy who has the DDOT map of where they all are, but they occasionally move them or ADD another unit one mile from the last unit as folks think the threat is over then speed up 20mph/ The limit on 295, through DC, is 50mph. Ridiculous for an interstate and designed to trap regular people ...not habitual speeders, for those rich VA dollars.

This brings me to a mid size sedan topic. Our cars are now safe enough, and have enough driving aids that keep our cars and occupants safe, so cities need to step up and fix their roads so our car cars don't die from wheel bearing and suspension failure

berri said:

I'm thinking an Optima and Camry are different buyers. Maybe Camry v Sonata and Optima v Accord?

I would agree with that, but the 2018 Camry is now released. The V6 XSE and even the 4 cyl XSE are the new performance oriented...(and delivered in V6 trim, with 301 HP and 267 lb ft) out of one of the few V6 engines offered in this segment.The secret to the increases in both engines direct injection. Even the 4 cyl has 206 and 186 (6hp more than mine and matching torque specs), but most folk with stick with the SE variant, which still has 203 HP and and 184 lb ft.which is 3 more than mine and 2 less lb ft....so basically dead even . My car is 6 years older...so, my question to Mr. Toyoda is WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG??? LOL.

explorerx4

My Fusion has stop/start and I leave activated unless I'm in stop and go traffic.
I sit a several long lights on a regular basis. Mostly unnoticeable stopping, but somewhat noticeable when starting back up.

[Deleted User]

Remember the outgoing SE had 170 HP and 178 lb ft. I drove an SE. It was refined but ES EL OW. I was scared to pull out into traffic. Infotainment system had me pulled over on some side road near the rental car place, just to program stations and it was unbelievcably small for a touch screen. NEVER ever ever would I add that car to my stable. Now the NEW XSE V6 Camry with the nice new driver oriented dash is very promising. Let me give it a year to make sure they get the bugs out, and I will go take out a V6 XSE for a serious test drive.

akirby

andres3 said:

I think it is arguable how big of a gap exists between the best and worst, but I think we all agree that perceptions are still pretty stubborn. And a lot of Toyota and Honda buyers are loyal to their chosen brand based on those perceptions, and track records. Track records are something you can't erase. Once the damage is done, it is done!

Or vice versa, if they keep making near flawless vehicles, why should they not be loyal?

I don't think it's arguable at all - there is good data out there for the first 3 years at least. Not much long term outside of CR which has its own issues. Cars just don't fall apart like they used to.

berri

I predict this dumb stop start go crap is going to be like those dumb automatic seatbelts years back. It will be problematic and probably only last a few years.

stickguy

well, in my sample size of 1, the Sonata is every bit as good, and in some ways better, than the Camry (at least the prior model that I had experience with). and dead on reliable. The bar is now so high, it is hard to find a really bad option. Just get what you like best, or meets your criteria.

andres3

akirby said:

andres3 said:

I think it is arguable how big of a gap exists between the best and worst, but I think we all agree that perceptions are still pretty stubborn. And a lot of Toyota and Honda buyers are loyal to their chosen brand based on those perceptions, and track records. Track records are something you can't erase. Once the damage is done, it is done!

Or vice versa, if they keep making near flawless vehicles, why should they not be loyal?

I don't think it's arguable at all - there is good data out there for the first 3 years at least. Not much long term outside of CR which has its own issues. Cars just don't fall apart like they used to.

Exhibit A, B & C:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/03/consumer-reports-2017-alfa-romeo-giulia-ti-basically-lives-dealer-service-bay/

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a10308214/alfa-romeo-giulia-issues/

https://jalopnik.com/the-alfa-romeo-giulia-is-the-perfect-unreliable-italian-1796883384

I think only one of those articles even mentions CR.

Another non CR sources that's overly generous with 2 dots out of 5 for reliability:

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/fiat/500/reliability