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U.S. Auto Market News and Reviews

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well I think the whole idea is to punish cars, isn't it? I mean, to encourage people who can do it, to get out of their cars.

    A lot of it is based on public attitude. Take Amsterdam, for instance. People there ride bikes, young and old, in fair weather and foul, and part of that, sure, is cultural, but part of it is that bike riding there is safe and convenient. (also FLAT--lol!)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Anyone ridden one of those new electric bikes? They are VERY impressive! The one I tried had a 40 mile range, and was pedal-assisted and rather handsome.

    Also not cheap!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,404
    It seems many who are devoted to that stuff want it for you, not them. You hop on a bus or ride your bike, I will stick to my private car, thank you very much. It's the same for housing in Seattle. You can have a microapartment or condo developed by a money-laundering offshore-funded corp, I will stick to the detached house I bought back when normal people could afford it, thank you very much. You can fund and manage your retirement, I will take this generous publicly-backed pension and retire 10-15 years before you, thank you very much.

    Amsterdam is a tough one, as the population and consumer infrastructure are so much more dense than in nearly all of the US (and car drivers are better - less chance of being plowed into by a distracted dolt in a Lexus RX).
    andres3 said:


    My problem is they should not add bike lanes by taking away already congested car lanes. Add bike lanes all you want, but pay for them separately without harming the infrastructure.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2017
    Well you live in a society. Sometimes we have to conform to majority wishes, otherwise it's anarchy. Ever live in anarchy culture? I have. Not so great.

    Auto emissions regulations would be a good example. Person A does not have the right to pollute Person B's air---they have to work something out. In the case of cars, they more or less did. The cars are much cleaner, yet people can still drive them if they wish.

    Congestion is a harder nut to crack. When a city gridlocks, that's bad, and how does everyone get satisfied?

    Smaller cars? Yeah, that helps. Maybe autonomous cars that are programmed to only be on the streets when necessary.

    But building additional bridges across rivers and turning 4 lanes into 8---not so easy.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    fintail said:

    It seems many who are devoted to that stuff want it for you, not them. You hop on a bus or ride your bike, I will stick to my private car, thank you very much. It's the same for housing in Seattle. You can have a microapartment or condo developed by a money-laundering offshore-funded corp, I will stick to the detached house I bought back when normal people could afford it, thank you very much. You can fund and manage your retirement, I will take this generous publicly-backed pension and retire 10-15 years before you, thank you very much.

    Amsterdam is a tough one, as the population and consumer infrastructure are so much more dense than in nearly all of the US (and car drivers are better - less chance of being plowed into by a distracted dolt in a Lexus RX).


    andres3 said:


    My problem is they should not add bike lanes by taking away already congested car lanes. Add bike lanes all you want, but pay for them separately without harming the infrastructure.

    Well to be fair, at least in California, car drivers have paid their fair share. In taxes, such as fuel taxes, road & toll fees, licensing, registration, and more. What have bike riders contributed? A lot of complaints about Cal-Trans.

    It all comes down to what politics/gov't really is, which is how do we want to spend/allocate/budget our limited resources? Seems our gov't will keep sending it to the Military above all else.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Americans complain too much about taxes. Of the 35 nations in the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development)--basically the "most developed" nations of the world--only South Korea, Ireland, Chile and Mexico collect less taxes than the USA, as a share of GDP.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,404
    Yeah, you lived in NYC before it became a playground for the rich and very rich alike, didn't you? B)




    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Well you live in a society. Sometimes we have to conform to majority wishes, otherwise it's anarchy. Ever live in anarchy culture? I have. Not so great.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,404
    Similar comparisons can be made about corporate taxes, when one learns to differentiate statutory and effective tax rates.
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Americans complain too much about taxes. Of the 35 nations in the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development)--basically the "most developed" nations of the world--only South Korea, Ireland, Chile and Mexico collect less taxes than the USA, as a share of GDP.

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    edited October 2017
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Americans complain too much about taxes. Of the 35 nations in the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development)--basically the "most developed" nations of the world--only South Korea, Ireland, Chile and Mexico collect less taxes than the USA, as a share of GDP.

    Do they account for our hidden forms of taxations that are called "fees?" For instance, I can remember paying these right off the bat:
    1. Property Tax and associated fees, bonds, propositions, mosquito repellent (OK, control).
    2. Water & Sewer Bills
    3. in San Diego, I think the Trash bill is buried in number 1 above, plus what they charge to get a damn container, or replace one if needed.
    4. Court costs, fines, tickets, citations (speeding is about $350, red light is about $550, fix-it is about $40 total)
    5. Court costs to do traffic school (extortion of about $50, plus about $20 for the online program).
    6. Sales taxes on just about everything you buy.
    7. Fuel Tax
    8. DMV, registration, license, smog abatement
    9. income tax
    10. social security, medicaid, medicare
    11. driver's license replacement costs ($32?), passport fees (overdue on this one),
    12. California Franchise Tax Board Interest Fees (they have 7 years to bill you, and the longer they take, the more interest they can charge you, seems pretty corrupt to me!). Luckily, it was HR Block's mistake, so they should pay it, and it only took them 19 months to send the bill that they over refunded me (through their own volition). My return was correct, they sent me more money than I asked for, but HR Block put less income than they were supposed to, which triggered the error of being sent more money for 2015 return.
    13. Airport fees, security fees, and more every time you fly.
    14. Hotel Taxes
    15. Insurance taxes such as "anti-fraud fee" and there's another one too.
    16. Telecommunications fees/taxes for phone lines and cable TV, usually 4 or 5 of those each.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,404
    I am still not sure about this "majority wishes" idea. How can we define the majority in this crooked fake news gerrymandered age? And does someone who is appointed by someone who has financial interest in (insert bike sharing/EV company here) who is appointed by someone who is appointed by someone who is elected really represent people? And why do those who preach sacrifice and change never seem to live it, themselves. I get more than a whiff of Louis and Marie from it, and we all remember what happened there. Seattle is terrible along those lines.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm a big fan of defining "majority wishes" as "beneficial to the overall health, safety and well-being of the commonweal". So, you know, air that isn't polluted, safe drinking water, no hypodermic needles in the children's playground---fairly obvious benefits to all but the most block-headed.

    I don't really see my neighbor's Tesla as a benefit to me, but if the government demanded that his loud, smoke-belching diesel truck be quieter and cleaner, I'm good with that. As to his political views, rudeness, bad taste, Confederate flags, etc---that's all his business.

    (Actually I don't have such neighbors of either stripe, knock of simulated woodgrain inlays--SLX trim level only).
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Taxes are very hard to compare among nations. Right off the top, most have different accounting systems, so you almost have to compare net tax against gross margin, or something similar to begin getting around that. Our politicians love to use top tax rate, but it is totally misleading. Few pay that due to so many write-offs. Then there are state and local taxes. In Europe, even though VAT is supposed to be paid by the buyer, does the seller have to reduce selling price some to offset the VAT that will be paid in order to be competitive or keep demand up? Any reduction in margin has a similar impact to profit as direct tax or other expenses. Bottom line, I tend to be very leery with the tax numbers thrown around.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    But Shifty, does majority rule really reflect gerrymandering? I think it is more a function of which party is in rule each 10 year anniversary of the census. The party doing the gerrymandering can effectively be in control for only a few years during that 10 year census anniversary. Some of the Congressional district borders have almost become obscene (both parties do that). I'm not sure that really reflects what most citizens really want and because the supreme Court has become such a political institution itself, I have little confidence in it serving as a safeguard anymore.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2017
    I guess majority rule can be beneficial or tyrannical. It would be hard to argue that California's insistence on emissions regulations way back in 1966 or so has harmed the modern automobile---well, for a while it might have, but competition and regulatory pressure did bring out a lot of creativity.

    And those of you who have been to say Athens or Beijing know the down side of air pollution.

    I don't want to get into too much general political talk, but much of what occurs in the auto industry is intimately tied to political decisions, can't deny that.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,404
    edited October 2017
    I think the term "majority wishes" here might also be called "social goods" - clean air, clean water, practical medical care, accessible education, transportation, and so on. We do some of it quite well, others, not so hot.
  • jpp75jpp75 Member Posts: 1,535
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    He is very smart but he's also very good at promising the impossible. If he scores 50%, then he's still credible.

    Tesla *IS* Elon, and that's the problem. Look at Apple without Jobs. The iPhone X is kind of a joke, next to its hype.

    Agree on the iPhone. It's become the Camry of phones so to speak.
  • jpp75jpp75 Member Posts: 1,535
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    I feel pretty certain that NO ONE is going into outer space (outside normal Earth orbits) except the U.S. government, as there is no incentive for private investment to do so.

    At present, Tesla automotive is kind of a Ponzi scheme, at least until it posts a profit. The early investors are being paid by the late investors.

    The Chevy Bolt is basically just as good as the Model 3 in capabilities, and it's available now. You don't have to lend Musk your money and wait for years to get one.

    But alas, it has a bow tie on the grille, not a "T". Oh, the horror!

    It's all about brand equity, GM has very little and Tesla has a cult following. Hard to compete with that in the short term.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    I feel pretty certain that NO ONE is going into outer space (outside normal Earth orbits) except the U.S. government, as there is no incentive for private investment to do so.

    At present, Tesla automotive is kind of a Ponzi scheme, at least until it posts a profit. The early investors are being paid by the late investors.

    The Chevy Bolt is basically just as good as the Model 3 in capabilities, and it's available now. You don't have to lend Musk your money and wait for years to get one.

    But alas, it has a bow tie on the grille, not a "T". Oh, the horror!

    Isn't that kind of like saying a $200 Android phone is the same as the iPhone? They do basically the same thing, but the quality and elegance of the service are different, and you pay for that.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    jpp5862 said:

    Mr_Shiftright said:

    I feel pretty certain that NO ONE is going into outer space (outside normal Earth orbits) except the U.S. government, as there is no incentive for private investment to do so.

    At present, Tesla automotive is kind of a Ponzi scheme, at least until it posts a profit. The early investors are being paid by the late investors.

    The Chevy Bolt is basically just as good as the Model 3 in capabilities, and it's available now. You don't have to lend Musk your money and wait for years to get one.

    But alas, it has a bow tie on the grille, not a "T". Oh, the horror!

    It's all about brand equity, GM has very little and Tesla has a cult following. Hard to compete with that in the short term.
    GM has a lot of fans, and a lot of detractors. You can't say GM didn't earn an awful lot of its negative feelings.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2017
    All good points and well taken!

    Some say that cult products aren't selling you a phone or an EV. They are selling you the person you want to be.

    It'll be interesting to see the "Battle of the EVs" once Hyundai, Kia and Nissan come up with their new models. They are going to price under a Tesla Model 3 (let's face it, by the time you get out the door with one, you could be shopping BMW). Nissan is, after all, the largest EV maker in the world. And we have Toyota and VW (world's largest car maker) in the wings, ready to launch soon.
  • jpp75jpp75 Member Posts: 1,535
    tlong said:

    jpp5862 said:



    It's all about brand equity, GM has very little and Tesla has a cult following. Hard to compete with that in the short term.

    GM has a lot of fans, and a lot of detractors. You can't say GM didn't earn an awful lot of its negative feelings.
    Oh they earned it for sure, when Mary Barra took over her comment was "No more crappy cars"

    They spent decades earning those negative feels and it will take about as long to recover.
  • jpp75jpp75 Member Posts: 1,535
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    All good points and well taken!

    Some say that cult products aren't selling you a phone or an EV. They are selling you the person you want to be.

    It'll be interesting to see the "Battle of the EVs" once Hyundai, Kia and Nissan come up with their new models. They are going to price under a Tesla Model 3 (let's face it, by the time you get out the door with one, you could be shopping BMW). Nissan is, after all, the largest EV maker in the world. And we have Toyota and VW (world's largest car maker) in the wings, ready to launch soon.

    Isn't BMW coming out with a 3 series that has 200+ miles range soon? Basically an electric version of the current model.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,669
    Mr_Shiftright said:



    Some say that cult products aren't selling you a phone or an EV. They are selling you the person you want to be.

    As some salesmen are trained to think of it, they are selling folks the "sizzle" not the steak. And that sizzle is
    always oriented toward the ego. I occasionally watch HSN, QVC, Evine selling products. You can really
    see this at work there, whether it's a scarf from Martha Steward there hawking her line or Wendy Williams or the locals hawking technology items.

    How many of us on the typical Edmunds forums would buy a computer without knowing the speed and capacity of the processor and other parts or without knowing the horsepower/torque, transmission, extra equipment of a vehicle. The sizzle sellers often sell a tech item, like laptops, that way.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,063
    When you buy an Apple product you are also buying excellent customer service. Worth a lot to me. And as to specs, Apple folks are delighted to show you more than you ever wanted to know! Apple devices sync easily with each other, another plus. And they work well for a long time. And they aren't plagued with malware problems. There's a reason Apple is where it is.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, they sync up after you've purchased about 25 different dongles. They are nowhere near the innovative company they once were.

    Oh, yeah, while we were talking about the automakers getting government money, I looked up how much Amazon has received in tax breaks and other incentives, in public monies---since 2014, one billion dollars. I think much of this came from the state and local levels.


  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,063
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Well, they sync up after you've purchased about 25 different dongles. They are nowhere near the innovative company they once were.

    Oh, yeah, while we were talking about the automakers getting government money, I looked up how much Amazon has received in tax breaks and other incentives, in public monies---since 2014, one billion dollars. I think much of this came from the state and local levels.


    Not sure what you mean. All my content syncs across all devices. I don't have to do or buy anything extra.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Depends on the age of your components or what you want to do.

    I think if Jobs had seen the iPhone X, he would have told them to go back to do it over.
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    edited October 2017

    Here is a quote from A USA Today article about the Auto Bailout::

    The government said it recovered $70.42 billion of the $79.68 billion it gave to General Motors, Chrysler, Ally Financial, Chrysler Financial and automotive suppliers through the federal Auto Industry Financing Program. The program was part of the larger Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP.


  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,669
    edited October 2017
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Well, they sync up after you've purchased about 25 different dongles. They are nowhere near the innovative company they once were.

    Oh, yeah, while we were talking about the automakers getting government money, I looked up how much Amazon has received in tax breaks and other incentives, in public monies---since 2014, one billion dollars. I think much of this came from the state and local levels.

    Amazon is still being subsidized by the government's USPS in the cost paid by Amazon for delivering packages. I have even received Amazon packages on Sunday. The USPS delivering on Sunday was something I never thought I'd see. Instead there's always been talk about delivering on fewer days than the historical 6 days.

    Further Amazon has stated that they are using adaptive pricing. The price changes. I was shopping for a tech item yesterday for my son. The company I had chosen and saved the purchase in the shopping cart hours later had taken the item off Amazon's listing and it was replaced at a higher price by another company. Then later as I shopped the pricing was $30 higher on a $250 item. Imagine if the car companies were to do that. Oh, wait. Some of the stores do raise the price on items they feel are in demand or at least receiving high interest.

    My image level of Amazon has dropped in the last year and I buy things elsewhere or locally. But Amazon has their foot in the door destroying many local businesses, much like Walmart did.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,404
    Does the USPS subsidize Amazon, or the other way around?

    I think Amazon is doing exactly what the catalog merchandisers did to general stores 100-130 years ago.

    I think some people out there don't like Amazon because Bezos's baby Washington Post is itching to pull another Nixon on the current swamp regime.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,669
    edited October 2017
    fintail said:

    I think some people out there don't like Amazon because Bezos's baby Washington Post is itching to pull another Nixon on the current swamp regime.

    Why is politics being inserted into this?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,404
    Because for this particular company, it is a significant factot. If one is going to attempt to discuss Amazon, they have to examine the entire entity, and the real reasons some may support or shun it.

    I could easily ask why is Amazon a subject on a thread about carmakers :) No Amazon branded car yet, I doubt I would want one.
    imidazol97 said:


    Why is politics being inserted into this?

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,022
    fintail said:

    I think Amazon is doing exactly what the catalog merchandisers did to general stores 100-130 years ago.

    I read a great article a few weeks ago that compared Amazon to Sears. Sears also started out as a catalog only enterprise, using the expanding railroad system to help with deliveries.

    After a number of years, Sears decided to start opening 'brick and mortar' stores. Just like Amazon is doing now, and with their purchase of Whole Foods.

    Wonder if Amazon will follow Sears' lead and start to offer soft products like insurance and financial advice, before collapsing as they are unable to adapt to the next new model.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,404
    I think that's probable, in time. No empire lasts forever. As history moves on and the speed of replacement seems to increase, empires seem to live for shorter times in the past. Just as national empires once lasted for centuries now seem to last for maybe a few generations, commercial empires will probably have a similar fate. Amazon might get a couple generations in before a new wave hits. The key is making yourself a part of the new wave, whatever it might be.
    Michaell said:



    I read a great article a few weeks ago that compared Amazon to Sears. Sears also started out as a catalog only enterprise, using the expanding railroad system to help with deliveries.

    After a number of years, Sears decided to start opening 'brick and mortar' stores. Just like Amazon is doing now, and with their purchase of Whole Foods.

    Wonder if Amazon will follow Sears' lead and start to offer soft products like insurance and financial advice, before collapsing as they are unable to adapt to the next new model.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,669
    edited October 2017
    Michaell said:

    fintail said:

    I think Amazon is doing exactly what the catalog merchandisers did to general stores 100-130 years ago.

    I read a great article a few weeks ago that compared Amazon to Sears. Sears also started out as a catalog only enterprise, using the expanding railroad system to help with deliveries.

    After a number of years, Sears decided to start opening 'brick and mortar' stores. Just like Amazon is doing now, and with their purchase of Whole Foods.

    Wonder if Amazon will follow Sears' lead and start to offer soft products like insurance and financial advice, before collapsing as they are unable to adapt to the next new model.

    Don't forget that Sears sold cars. Walmart has been discussed as potentially selling cars in the past years. I can't imagine picking up my new Korean car from the local Walmart store with keys handed over by some of the workers in this area. But Tesla had/has hopes of getting around the car dealer monopoly written into laws in some states. Amazon could sell cars. Delivered by a helicopter device without a pilot right to your driveway. Popular Science material like in the 50s.

    https://google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjRzcLNv-HWAhVE6yYKHQQ2A4QQFggmMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Foppositelock.kinja.com%2Fwhen-sears-sold-cars-the-strange-tale-of-the-kaiser-he-474351403&usg=AOvVaw2fe9PpnoIk5jnz4tK79IOQ





    And Sears sold houses.

    https://google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjWuoCWwOHWAhWBJCYKHfpPCAkQFggmMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSears_Catalog_Home&usg=AOvVaw23-7gX2UxItdtk404SHx7e


    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2017
    America is a funny place. If some ruthless automotive mogul or computer entrepreneur makes 50 million dollars in one day, he is given an honored place in the Pantheon of the Gods; if an athlete or Hollywood star makes 50 million dollars in one day, they are in everyone's cross hairs.

    I love that Sears Motor Buggy ad: "A Child Can Run It"

    And man, that has turned out to be true! :p
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    Amazon's Web Services business generates $15 billion a year in revenue; my employer will likely start spending a couple million a year moving much of our data center workload to AWS. Companies like Netflix run on AWS & don't have their own server infrastructure.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Depends on the age of your components or what you want to do.

    I think if Jobs had seen the iPhone X, he would have told them to go back to do it over.

    I agree. Apple is now about extracting max revenue: "No headphone, jack, why not buy those expensive drippy bluetooth phones we sell? Oh, and once you have those, you are less likely to switch manufacturers as our phones are designed for our products. Oh and we save the cost of the jack in the manufacture of the phone."

    Carmakers have done some of that as well - they hated anybody making aftermarket parts.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    greg128 said:


    Here is a quote from A USA Today article about the Auto Bailout::

    The government said it recovered $70.42 billion of the $79.68 billion it gave to General Motors, Chrysler, Ally Financial, Chrysler Financial and automotive suppliers through the federal Auto Industry Financing Program. The program was part of the larger Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP.


    I'll bet they didn't include the ongoing tax breaks they gave to GM, did they?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    jpp5862 said:

    tlong said:

    jpp5862 said:



    It's all about brand equity, GM has very little and Tesla has a cult following. Hard to compete with that in the short term.

    GM has a lot of fans, and a lot of detractors. You can't say GM didn't earn an awful lot of its negative feelings.
    Oh they earned it for sure, when Mary Barra took over her comment was "No more crappy cars"

    They spent decades earning those negative feels and it will take about as long to recover.
    Wasn't it Bush #2 that said GM needed to make "relevant" cars again. Good choice of words and was a nice dig for the time.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    edited October 2017
    Here's another article, seemingly well written, but he makes a case for blaming all the world's evils on the UAW, comes down hard on the UAW, and blames the UAW for all of the ultimate final bailout losses.

    http://www.heritage.org/testimony/auto-bailout-or-uaw-bailout-taxpayer-losses-came-subsidizing-union-compensation

    This piece, coming from a website named "balance" concludes: https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industry-bailout-gm-ford-chrysler-3305670

    If there had been no bailout, Ford, Toyota and Honda would have picked up market share. That would have increased U.S. factories and jobs once the recession was over. The loss of GM would be like the loss of Pan Am, TWA and other companies that had a strong American heritage but lost their competitiveness. It would have perhaps tugged on the heartstrings of America, but not really hurt the economy. As a result, the auto industry bailout was not critical to the U.S. economy, like the rescue of AIG or the banking system.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,404
    If you're going to talk about the Detroit Free Press being credible, don't reply with a link from heritage.org ;)

    $16BN sounds like a lot until you compare it with aid to ungrateful nations.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Some of those sources are politically slanted also. This issue has been beaten so many times. I think it is time to move on because you can't really change it. Bottom line; regardless of a person's thoughts on all of this, the auto industry is much better today.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    edited October 2017
    fintail said:

    If you're going to talk about the Detroit Free Press being credible, don't reply with a link from heritage.org ;)

    LOL, just showing the "other" side. I like to watch and read "both sides" at times. It is amazing to me how the media can be in (and apparently live in) two different worlds.

    $16BN sounds like a lot until you compare it with aid to ungrateful nations.

    Just showing the other side. When researching bail out losses, you can probably find totals ranging from the 9.3 Billion (low end), to something as high as 16.6 or probably more (I didn't try that hard). Maybe the truth is in the middle; though I find the higher totals more credible, and Chrysler's losses should be included. What's a few billion among taxpayers and friends?


    Certainly it isn't or wasn't the "worst case scenario," or the worst investment the government has ever made. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

    I am glad there is more competition and choice, and not less. If anything, it has kept prices in check.

    Back to the media, you can get the NY Times saying things like the Bailouts were PROFITABLE! LOL!.

    And a more balanced article would say "Wall Street bailouts made a profit, Auto bailouts were a loss; net profit (all be it a very small one that took 6 or more years to realize)"
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There's no way anyone is going to figure this out because we can't fire up the Time Machine and spin the opposite scenario.

    The only undisputed fact is that the American Automobile Industry still exists.

    I'd like for us to get off this particular topic and move on to more current industry news if we can.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    OK, more current auto related news:

    http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/16/news/companies/auto-industry-challenges/index.html

    Upheaval.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It will be interesting however it all turns out. Personally, can't help but feel the early stages of all this has a bit of hyperbole and paranoia though ;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,669
    The name Michelle Krebs in the article sounds familiar with AutoTrader. Did she used to be with Edmunds. I recall her being a credible person when she made statements, if this is the same person.

    I believe the article gives Tesla too much credibility. Testla has been built and operated with taxpayer money. That distorts the market. More loans that likely won't be repaid. I see the Tesla Supercharger near here with never a vehicle at it. Those likely were built, all hundred or more IIRC, with taxpayer money. I read the company even wants to put Solar City covers over them, another of Musk's taxpayer companies, which again distorts the real market for solar panels due to gov't funding.

    The fact that Tesla has a high market evaluation doesn't mean much when it's not market tested. Enron had a high stock value; had, long ago. How many $100,000, $130,000 Teslae can be sold? There are a few in our community and closest dealer is 85+ miles away.

    I think the pedantic vehicles like Volt, Bolt, Leaf, and the EV hybrids may be the future for _some_.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "Facing a tremendous competitive threat from Tesla" it says.

    Oh, c'mon, really?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,921
    berri said:

    It will be interesting however it all turns out. Personally, can't help but feel the early stages of all this has a bit of hyperbole and paranoia though ;)

    Fear tends to sell papers (not so successfully), but does seem to generate clicks at least.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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