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  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    What I find interesting is that when I talk to others about all of this, I don't really find a lot of interest in autonomous or electric vehicles. The younger techies will drive it all as they age and get more prosperous. Meanwhile it kind of just seems a lot of conceptual thought and maybe a bit of over investment due to the industry paranoia. Related in a way, I just saw an article where Boeing has joined in and bought a company that is working on pilotless or robotic aircraft pilots. Funny, this will cause a big stir with the pilot unions at the same time as Boeing is finding itself crosswise with Canada, Europe and Delta.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,064
    The auto companies have to be planning much further into the future than we are. Not doing that cost GM dearly in the past. They seem to be much more forward looking now.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    edited October 2017
    I was watching a show about airplane disasters/crashes, and they devoted an episode to the Asia Airlines crash at San Francisco's Airport a few years back. Basically, the airline's airplane flew itself too slow and too low and crashed just short of the runway.

    They determined that the auto-pilot and autonomous flying programs were as much at-fault as the humor errors of the pilots. Turns out these pilots had almost no experience actually flying the airplane, despite ample hours of flight time. They are not pilots anymore, they are computer operators.

    I fear that some of the safety nannies in cars will do the same to up and coming younger drivers. They won't know a world without blind-spot monitoring, and so they don't know why you should always still turn your head and check!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Several Asian airline shave hired retired US airline captains to help in their training programs. Basically, they find their pilots are top notch in memorizing the material, but not as flexible or creative in a crisis. Hence the safety gap. In multi engine aircraft, robotics will have a much more complex 3D environment than autos.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    berri said:

    Several Asian airline shave hired retired US airline captains to help in their training programs. Basically, they find their pilots are top notch in memorizing the material, but not as flexible or creative in a crisis. Hence the safety gap. In multi engine aircraft, robotics will have a much more complex 3D environment than autos.

    It was also a problem of overconfidence and over-trusting the computer to "fix things" when things started to go wrong.

    I only turn my ESP half-off on the track. When the back end gets loose, and starts coming around, I find the computer "fixes it" a tenth or two faster than I can, but if it didn't, I'd fix it too.

    I admit I don't have a ton of experience with wiggly back ends coming from the under-steer champs A3 and S4.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    andres3 said:

    I fear that some of the safety nannies in cars will do the same to up and coming younger drivers. They won't know a world without blind-spot monitoring, and so they don't know why you should always still turn your head and check!

    Friend of ours crashed her new Fusion in a parking lot accident. She said none of the safety devices went off to warn her that she might hit the car coming at a 90 degree angle. Really upset her that she crunched her months old car.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Whatever happened to the warning sounds that accompanied those back up cameras?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    berri said:

    Whatever happened to the warning sounds that accompanied those back up cameras?

    That requires sensors, not just a camera and a screen. I like the audible warnings for parking maneuvers; which isn't "real" driving. I don't like warnings while I'm really driving (for instance the red light forward collision warning I've seen in vehicles) that'll go off on the freeway.

    There is something to be said for training someone on an old car with no safety tech so that they learn how to drive and gain experience actually driving, and then later after they get some experience they can upgrade to the modern nanny-mobiles.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    Changes to the buying scene in US or just attention-grabbing stunt by Hyundai?


    Hyundai will take back car for 3 days after purchase in future. "With the new program, dubbed Hyundai Shopper Assurance, customers will be allowed to return their vehicles for any reason for a full refund as long as there's no damage and the vehicle hasn't accumulated more than 300 miles."

    Enquiring minds want to know..
    http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/cars/2017/10/10/hyundai-shopper-assurance/749759001/

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    Stunt to get butts in seats. It's been done before by others. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/10/gm-buyback-program-car-return_n_1663022.html
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    imidazol97 said:

    Changes to the buying scene in US or just attention-grabbing stunt by Hyundai?


    Hyundai will take back car for 3 days after purchase in future. "With the new program, dubbed Hyundai Shopper Assurance, customers will be allowed to return their vehicles for any reason for a full refund as long as there's no damage and the vehicle hasn't accumulated more than 300 miles."

    Enquiring minds want to know..
    http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/cars/2017/10/10/hyundai-shopper-assurance/749759001/

    When you buy a car in CA, there is so much paperwork to be signed (even if you don't get a loan) that you'd be really hesitant to return a car and have wasted all that time. If you value your time at all.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    You know, it might work for Hyundai. Many remember it from the older rental cars. They are much improved. But paperwork could be a complicating factor.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    imidazol97 said:

    Changes to the buying scene in US or just attention-grabbing stunt by Hyundai?


    Hyundai will take back car for 3 days after purchase in future. "With the new program, dubbed Hyundai Shopper Assurance, customers will be allowed to return their vehicles for any reason for a full refund as long as there's no damage and the vehicle hasn't accumulated more than 300 miles."

    Enquiring minds want to know..
    http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/cars/2017/10/10/hyundai-shopper-assurance/749759001/

    Well it might pressure other makers to offer the same (remember way back when Hyundai put up longer warranties?), but I rather doubt too many people will take advantage of it. You know the old trick--your neighbors have seen it, it smells fresh and new, and you'll have to go through the whole arduous process all over again.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Have you all seen that Mazda is going to come out with a diesel-like gas engine that ups economy by 30% or so? They are really innovating - they remind me of where Honda used to be in the 70s when they came up with CVCC. But now Honda is big and conservative and Mazda is the new upstart.
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    Mazda is hardly an upstart WRT bringing new engine tech to market. The rotary Wankel used in the RX-7 and the Miller Cycle engine used in the Millennia in the 90s are but two examples.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's an interesting idea...part spark ignition, part compression ignition. Makes sense if it really gives a sizable boost in MPG.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    fushigi said:

    Mazda is hardly an upstart WRT bringing new engine tech to market. The rotary Wankel used in the RX-7 and the Miller Cycle engine used in the Millennia in the 90s are but two examples.

    Yes but the Wankel has struggled with issues that have never propelled it to much market share. There's a great video on YT about the various issues.
    I meant Mazda is an upstart in the sense that Honda when small was really working on advancing engine technology. And now Mazda is still small and continues to do the same thing. The larger companies seem to be more conservative. And of course GM scrapped its electrics a couple of decades ago, while another upstart - Tesla - is stimulating that market.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,064
    GM is back into electrics in a big way. And more affordable than Tesla.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    suydam said:

    GM is back into electrics in a big way. And more affordable than Tesla.

    Yes, but can they travel back in time at 88 MPH?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I have seen quite a few bolts on the road. They're not bad looking. Certainly a huge move forward in styling from a decade or two ago. IMHO the current Volt body style looks pretty good, too.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The bailout notwithstanding, the 'Little 3' still need more work to sway the detractors:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/10/19/consumer-reports-toyota-tops-reliability-and-cadillac-last/777807001/

    DETROIT — In one of the auto industry’s most closely watched surveys, Consumer Reports found that Toyota, Lexus and Kia are the top brands when it comes to reliability.

    And three domestic brands, Cadillac, GMC and Ram, are the worst.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    In other GM news, that $.25 switch sure cost some hard dough!

    WASHINGTON(Reuters) - General Motors has agreed to pay $120 million to resolve claims from 49 U.S. states and the District of Columbia over faulty ignition switches, state attorneys general and the company said on Thursday.

    The largest U.S. automaker had previously paid about $2.5 billion in penalties and settlements over faulty ignition switches that could cause engines to stall and prevent airbags from deploying in crashes. The defect has been linked to 124 deaths and 275 injuries, and prompted a recall that began in February 2014 of 2.6 million vehicles.

    GM spokesman David Caldwell said the Detroit automaker had reached a settlement with states over the more than 3-year-old consumer protection investigations.

    "GM will continue ongoing improvements it's made to ensure the safety of its vehicles," Caldwell said. These include retaining a new organizational structure devoted to global vehicle safety and a program that encourages employees to speak up about possible safety issues.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Question of the day:

    QOTD: Will Cadillac and Lincoln Regain Top-Tier Luxury Brand Status In Your Lifetime?

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/10/qotd-will-cadillac-lincoln-ever-regain-top-tier-luxury-brand-status/

    I think not.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2017
    Maybe if you were born yesterday. :p

    I've actually calculated this out--the year Cadillac and Lincoln will regain Top-Tier Luxury Status will be 2050.

    My calculations are based on the premise that anyone who had "acute automobile awareness" in the year 1985 (middle of the Malaise Era)---so that might be anyone from age 15 to age 85)---will continue to bad mouth these cars based on personal experience, and thus influence the minds of present-day and even future buyers.

    Once we have reached the statistical lifespan of everyone born in 1970--the year 2050--well, dead men tell no tales.

    Give or take a few years, of course. This isn't a precise science. B)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    circlew said:

    In other GM news, that $.25 switch sure cost some hard dough!

    WASHINGTON(Reuters) - General Motors has agreed to pay $120 million to resolve claims from 49 U.S. states and the District of Columbia over faulty ignition switches, state attorneys general and the company said on Thursday.

    The largest U.S. automaker had previously paid about $2.5 billion in penalties and settlements over faulty ignition switches that could cause engines to stall and prevent airbags from deploying in crashes. The defect has been linked to 124 deaths and 275 injuries, and prompted a recall that began in February 2014 of 2.6 million vehicles.

    GM spokesman David Caldwell said the Detroit automaker had reached a settlement with states over the more than 3-year-old consumer protection investigations.

    "GM will continue ongoing improvements it's made to ensure the safety of its vehicles," Caldwell said. These include retaining a new organizational structure devoted to global vehicle safety and a program that encourages employees to speak up about possible safety issues.

    The epitome of penny-wise and pound-foolish.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Maybe if you were born yesterday. :p

    I've actually calculated this out--the year Cadillac and Lincoln will regain Top-Tier Luxury Status will be 2050.

    My calculations are based on the premise that anyone who had "acute automobile awareness" in the year 1985 (middle of the Malaise Era)---so that might be anyone from age 15 to age 85)---will continue to bad mouth these cars based on personal experience, and thus influence the minds of present-day and even future buyers.

    Once we have reached the statistical lifespan of everyone born in 1970--the year 2050--well, dead men tell no tales.

    Give or take a few years, of course. This isn't a precise science. B)

    Good points. I think it is way under-appreciated how much a bad reputation, once obtained, hurts for not years but decades. That's true on a lot of products, not just cars. But it's a longer cycle with cars since people often keep them 10 years or so, unlike say your phone which is a couple years.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Your actuarial skills are interesting Shifty ;)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    tlong said:

    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Maybe if you were born yesterday. :p

    I've actually calculated this out--the year Cadillac and Lincoln will regain Top-Tier Luxury Status will be 2050.

    My calculations are based on the premise that anyone who had "acute automobile awareness" in the year 1985 (middle of the Malaise Era)---so that might be anyone from age 15 to age 85)---will continue to bad mouth these cars based on personal experience, and thus influence the minds of present-day and even future buyers.

    Once we have reached the statistical lifespan of everyone born in 1970--the year 2050--well, dead men tell no tales.

    Give or take a few years, of course. This isn't a precise science. B)

    Good points. I think it is way under-appreciated how much a bad reputation, once obtained, hurts for not years but decades. That's true on a lot of products, not just cars. But it's a longer cycle with cars since people often keep them 10 years or so, unlike say your phone which is a couple years.
    Also, car problems tend to be exponentially more expensive than just a bum DVD player.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think it's far worse when the car was relatively expensive. To be stranded on the side of the road after having spent a sizable sum on a car is, well, humiliating. It's almost as if people are telling Cadillac and Lincoln to stop pretending they aren't Chevys and Fords.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I actually think people are telling Caddy and Lincoln not to bother anymore in the USA. China is the place for them. Just like Buick.

    The rest of GM is about trucks in the USA.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think Caddy and Lincoln can't expect to price with Lexus and the German's until they get some real sales momentum. So they are in this bad spot where many don't want to pay MB price for the product, which means they will have to throw incentives out lowering the brand status and used car value. If they don't somehow get more product out the door they will become an permanent outlier. Detroit needs to look back at how Lexus first penetrated the US lux market - quality and value at a lower price than the competition. I also think part of Buick's problem is they have gotten too expensive compared to market perceived value.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    edited October 2017
    berri said:

    I also think part of Buick's problem is they have gotten too expensive compared to market perceived value.

    I think you're exactly right. But what is Buick's spot in the market? It's not a Cadillac. It's not a Chevrolet. Buick used to be a Premium Motorcar. They shooed away many of their market when they discontinued the leSabre. The Lucerne didn't work for me as either a Park Avenue or a leSabre. Buick considers themselves to be benchmarked against certain Lexii in what they said a few years back. I don't know if that's current thinking or not. I'd like an upscale vehicle much like a Camry ES350 that's upscale from the base and a good volume and good economy over 33 highway.

    I would love to be in charge of advertising. There's a strong brainwashing flow down the river of negatives about the automobiles from GM, some of it deserved by the past, but some just perpetuated by folks who haven't driven a GM other than a rental base model (don't get me started on allowing only base models to be served up to the rental/corporate leasing companies). Much of the brainwashing is in the repetition of tired dead horses by people in the MSM, big surprise there?






    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Cadillac and Lincoln have little established prestige to most these days. That is why I think they have to act as if they are new to the market and follow the early Lexus model to re-establish the brands.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Most Chinese were totally unfamiliar with GM's woes in the U.S. I think they remembered, or heard about, the Buick name from "the old days" when they were imported into China, in pre-revolutionary times.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,064
    Aren’t the Buick SUVs selling well?
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Buick sales in general have slowed down. I think they are nice vehicles, but their pricing seems to have gotten little greedy. Each their own, but at Enclave pricing I'd be looking at Acura, Lexus and Audi instead personally.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    edited October 2017
    suydam said:

    Aren’t the Buick SUVs selling well?

    I don't have any data to compare sales of the SUVs historically with previous years or comparatively with other brands and models. They may be holding their own.

    I was thinking in terms of the sedan market.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,857
    edited October 2017
    I find CR interesting to look at, but I know people who consider them 'the Bible' when they buy a car. I've long thought there's sample error there, which is probably impossible to avoid, but they and others surely take their results very seriously.

    I bought a '17 Cruze in January and have 10K miles. I've not taken it back for anything but an oil change. In their April Auto Issue, they said the Cruze was their pick of compacts, with a "Much Better Than Average" reliability record.

    Six months later, they say now it is "Much Worse Than Average".

    LOL.

    I did think when they said the new Cruze was "Much Better Than Average", that the car hadn't been out for very long to make that conclusion.

    Like my other GM's, I'm confident that with regular maintenance and my ability to detect if something is becoming amiss so get the car in for repair, I won't have anything expensive to worry about. That's been my experience, and I'm now on the 14th new GM in a row and have also bought four used. I like buying local and I've bought four new and two used that were built 40 miles down the road from me.

    Our two Cobalts were among the most bulletproof cars I ever owned, and whisper-quiet and smooth at idle and in fact far-less road noise than any cars I've bought since. I know that's not conventional wisdom, but I enjoy tweaking conventional wisdom anyway, LOL.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,857
    edited October 2017
    I've been away from this particular forum for, I don't know, a year or two? First thing I see is that Cobalts are still being talked about by the same people, LOL. So I added my actually-personal experience. I didn't see any talk of a Neon though! :)

    Kidding.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh you should scroll back. We had some good ideas tossed around.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    uplanderguy said:

    I've been away from this particular forum for, I don't know, a year or two? First thing I see is that Cobalts are still being talked about by the same people, LOL. So I added my actually-personal experience. I didn't see any talk of a Neon though! :)

    Kidding.

    Nice to hear from you again uplander, we missed you!
    Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

    Anybody know what ever happened to lemko?

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2017
    tlong said:

    uplanderguy said:

    I've been away from this particular forum for, I don't know, a year or two? First thing I see is that Cobalts are still being talked about by the same people, LOL. So I added my actually-personal experience. I didn't see any talk of a Neon though! :)

    Kidding.

    Nice to hear from you again uplander, we missed you!
    Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

    Anybody know what ever happened to lemko?

    Lemko has not posted since Dec. 2016 but he could be lurking.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Don't hear much from Andre anymore either. Two interesting guys with lots of knowledge and stories. I think they may be interested more in Detroit models than Europe and Asia. With some of the changes going on in Detroit right now, it may soon be front and center again in conversations in a positive manner.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Auto Sales Expected to Dip Slightly in October, Forecasts Edmunds

    Incentives continue to attract more buyers in October compared to most of 2017, but increasing pressure on automakers to clear inventory expected to yield substantial end-of-year savings for car shoppers
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,857
    I always enjoyed lemko's and andre's posts too,but if you're a fan of the Detroit makers, it's a pretty lonely place here, LOL.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    uplanderguy said:

    I always enjoyed lemko's and andre's posts too,but if you're a fan of the Detroit makers, it's a pretty lonely place here, LOL.

    Yes, you'd have a lot more luck in SUVs and Vans and Pickups.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,857
    Too bad I'm not interested in SUV's, vans, and pickups. :)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,411
    I like a lot of American cars, but I think most of them are older than me :)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,857
    edited October 2017
    My favorite current sedan is an Impala Premier (formerly 'LTZ'). I can't think of a current large sedan that is any better-looking to my eyes. It's so large though that my wife would have nicks on it in a week, LOL. I'd pick a dark green color, but Chevy has a habit of introducing greens, then discontinuing them. There's a bright metallic green on the '18 Equinox that is attractive and different to me--reminds me of the '72-73 bright green metallic GM used--but I bet it'll be gone by the end of the model year.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,411
    edited October 2017
    I like the CT6, and might like the Continental, and still don't mind the 300. I am indifferent about most of the mainstream material, but to be fair, pretty much none of it is bad, which isn't something that could be said in times past.
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