U.S. Auto Market News and Reviews

andres3 · November 2017

suydam said:
I’m fine with a few exterior colors. Most people pick white, black or silver anyway. It’s the all-black interiors I hate these days.

I question whether "most people" pick white black, or silver, or is it most dealership managers/GM's? I go with the latter. Chicken and the egg.

If most people custom ordered their vehicle and waited 12 weeks for it, then I could see blaming people, but since they don't (anyone have % of buyers that "order" and wait on on new vehicle purchases? Probably very low), I blame the dealership managers that order everything in those colors.

Anyone have data on Teslas? The percentage of those being black, white or silver might be lower than other car makers/car models based on my observations.

andres3 · November 2017

uplanderguy said:
I fully believe it's a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" thing. I miss the wide palette of color choices in and out, personally. As far as blaming the consumer who accepts it--what is one supposed to do when that's all that's offered? Are you not going to buy a new car if you want or need one, because they don't offer the old wide choices in color? No, if you're like me, you'll shake your head, resigned to buy what's available.

I think the reality is, no matter what your buying habits are, the domestics were influenced in this regard by the imports. It seems obvious. Maybe it isn't if you weren't alive or old enough to look at new cars in the sixties through the late seventies.

Most new-car buyers today don't know about those days and most buyers, other than guys like us on car forums, see a car as an appliance.

A person that views a car as an appliance can be converted by a well engineered vehicle. I just read a story of a car enthusiast who was one of those former appliance buyers, who didn't understand why people wasted money on sports cars when the speed limit is already achievable in a Ford Fiesta/Festiva/Aspire.

Then he drove one, and was forever changed and converted.

berri · November 2017

What I find interesting is that everyone pooh-pooh's Toyota because it doesn't drive like an enthusiasts car. Yet Toyota products tend to be big sellers. So what is Toyota doing, trying to become more of an enthusiast's car. Toyota may need to step back and remember the 2nd gen ovoid Taurus (around '97). Market research and car buff periodicals praised it. Yet when it came to market it wasn't the huge success all these places predicted. In 2000 Ford had to do a rather expensive update to calm the styling down. What people say and what they do isn't always the same.

andres3 · November 2017

uplanderguy said:
I also believe that the industry-wide use of package/model A, B, or C and virtually no individual options can be directly attributed to the imports. It used to be I never saw a duplicate of another car, either on the road or on a dealer's lot. I mean, NEVER. Now I see them sitting next to each other on a dealer's lot--a perfect duplicate.

All I'm getting at is that it was much-more fun to custom-order a car even 35 years ago than it is now. I'd compare it to being hungry for something but you're not sure what--you'd enjoy going to a place with a big menu than one with four daily specials.

Claim Jumper's and Cheesecake Factory specialize in large menus. Almost too much choice.

uplanderguy · November 2017

I'm a big fan of Cheesecake Factory. Trouble is, I look like it too. I've not heard of Claim Jumper's.

andres3 · November 2017

uplanderguy said:

I suspect some luddite types definitely bemoaned 60s cars - too big, too powerful, too complex.

Back then, that probably would've been Consumer Reports, LOL.

I remember when they would pooh-pooh any bodystyle available for a model other than four-door sedan, LOL.

"Fun to drive" was never a consideration for them. Since then, they seem to actually employ some enthusiasts in their testing, I will give them that.

They've often picked the Miata as their "fun to drive" winner. Have to give CR credit for that. They seem to understand the fun to drive factor, but will still note a loud exhaust or poor fuel economy for a V8 as a negative.

fintail · November 2017

I suspect most people don't care. Few have the patience to wait 6-12 weeks for a custom order, and you can probably always get a better price for a car already on the lot. Many care as much about the color of their car as the color of their toaster.

Managers will also order safe color choices, knowing they will appeal to more people. The white car will probably find a buyer a lot faster than the bright orange car.

I see a few blue and red Tesla, but tons of black and white ones here. I think a huge Tesla demographic is upmarket Prius fans, so it might not be the most expressive segment.

andres3 said:

I question whether "most people" pick white black, or silver, or is it most dealership managers/GM's? I go with the latter. Chicken and the egg.

If most people custom ordered their vehicle and waited 12 weeks for it, then I could see blaming people, but since they don't (anyone have % of buyers that "order" and wait on on new vehicle purchases? Probably very low), I blame the dealership managers that order everything in those colors.

Anyone have data on Teslas? The percentage of those being black, white or silver might be lower than other car makers/car models based on my observations.

fintail · November 2017

I think today they will praise a fun car, so long as it is small and fuel efficient. They no doubt don't have a problem with a Miata,

I am pretty sure I have seen large SUVs dinged for gas mileage. An Escalade is a guzzler? I'm shocked!

uplanderguy said:

Back then, that probably would've been Consumer Reports, LOL.

I remember when they would pooh-pooh any bodystyle available for a model other than four-door sedan, LOL.

"Fun to drive" was never a consideration for them. Since then, they seem to actually employ some enthusiasts in their testing, I will give them that.

fintail · November 2017

I don't know of any truly standalone Lincoln dealers around here - all connected to Ford. The local Caddy dealer is kind of standalone (next door to Chevy, in one of the faux Quonset hut Hummer buildings), but seems to be very old school in its sales approach, I suspect it is connected to the Chevy dealer, but I haven't done research.

There may be more 45 year old songs on the radio or commercials now, but I suspect most 30-somethings can't ID the artist or year, not to mention album. I'm somewhat lucky my parents were into oldies, and I heard a lot of it growing up, fun to look like an oddball by naming songs or groups or years in front of friends

uplanderguy said:
I'll have to look that Lincoln color up.

I don't think I'd want to be a solo Lincoln dealer today, but that's how Ford is marketing the make. They're in their own location where I live now, but it's owned by the Ford and Mopar/Jeep dealer. Now that I think about it, Cadillac is marketed as a stand-alone brand now too, but there isn't a Cadillac dealer within fifteen miles of here.

Popular music from the '60's and later is surely more prevalent in today's culture (oldies radio, movies, TV shows, Muzak) than that of the teens or twenties was when I was young.

Michaell · November 2017

When my wife was looking for a new car a couple of years ago, we looked at the Subaru website to see what colors were available. She found one called "Wilderness Green" that appealed to her. Checked the local inventory and one dealer had the exact car she wanted (bigger engine, right color and options) on the way from Indiana. We placed a $500 refundable deposit on it and waited 2 weeks for it to arrive.

uplanderguy · November 2017

That seems like a color I've seen on Subarus before. Better than silver, white, black, etc.!

My '17 Cruze is dark gray metallic with black cloth interior. Funny, I didn't even ask the color when I was told what the price was (was an LT model with no additional options and "Red Tag" priced, even though it was only built the month before). I didn't know the color until they drove it around. I was actually somewhat pleased when it came around, as it seems like a lot of Cruzes tend to be brighter colors. The dark color adds a little dignity to the design believe it or not, with chrome on places on the car and aluminum wheels, although I'd have taken a dark green if I could've.

What I hate in a car is gray interior. I've just lived with too many rental cars with gray interiors over the years. When I could, I got my Chevys with beige interiors instead over the years.

My first new car, an '81 Monte Carlo which my hometown dealer got from a dealer in central PA, was my favorite color combo of all cars I've owned--factory two-tone Light Jade roof and hood over Dark Jade everything else. Basically light and dark teal or turquoise colors. The cloth interior was a light turquoise cloth. It was stolen a year-and-a-half later and never recovered.

fintail · November 2017

This is the Lincoln green (photo from google, not my friend's exact car):

uplanderguy · November 2017

Nice, but I want GREEN!

I don't want an Equinox, but I like the color a lot:

http://inventory-cf.assets-cdk.com/0/4/8/15051882840x640.jpg

fintail · November 2017

Ah like a forest green sorta.

MB has a couple of dark greens, but I don't know if these suffice:

suydam · November 2017

What did one former dealer use to call it here, “no sale green”? Studies of car color choices consistently show that most people prefer white, black, and silver, with some blues and reds thrown in. Dealers know this so they try to stock their lots accordingly. We are a boring group these days! Or maybe those 3 colors are perceived as looking upscale.

iluvmysephia1 · November 2017

The color I want on my 2018 Subaru Impreza 2.0i 5-speed sedan is called Island Blue Pearl. This is the car, just not the color. Though I do like them in white, too.

Here's the car in the Island Blue Pearl color. Upgrading my base factory wheels to ones like this at tax time will be a hoot. I'm all about decided I'm gonna get a Subie just like this one.

fushigi · November 2017

Funny. I absolutely will not buy white, black, silver/grey, or tan. Going back to '93 my cars have been green, maroon, red, and now dark blue. Both black & white show every spec of dirt and silver & tan just fade into the background. If my car is going to say something about me I don't want it to be 'mass market neutral'.

The car before '93 was black but was 1) used and 2) the least reliable car I've ever owned.

uplanderguy · November 2017

I like maroon, but I've had two for a total of twelve years that color, so I'm off.

Which gets me on another color rant.

Since when did colors become optional at extra cost? LOL

GM does this too, so I'm not bashing everybody but GM.

I will say I remember certain Cadillac 'Firemist' colors being optional in the mid-seventies, but I never saw a Chevy color (at least on the models I buy) as extra-cost until my 2011 Malibu, which was metallic black which was optional (hey, it's what the wife wanted).

Michaell · November 2017

When I got my Jetta, I had a choice of red, blue or grey. I asked the wife what her preference was, and this is what I drove home with:

uplanderguy · November 2017

Fin, I like dark greens like those Benzes. In person, that green on the Equinox, to me, looks lighter/brighter than what that picture shows.

tlong · November 2017

berri said:
What I find interesting is that everyone pooh-pooh's Toyota because it doesn't drive like an enthusiasts car. Yet Toyota products tend to be big sellers. So what is Toyota doing, trying to become more of an enthusiast's car. Toyota may need to step back and remember the 2nd gen ovoid Taurus (around '97). Market research and car buff periodicals praised it. Yet when it came to market it wasn't the huge success all these places predicted. In 2000 Ford had to do a rather expensive update to calm the styling down. What people say and what they do isn't always the same.

That car was IMHO horrendously ugly. I actually think perceived aesthetics are important. While beauty might not be critical, ugly is a no-no.

berri · November 2017

Very true and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder!

uplanderguy · November 2017

That second gen Taurus--I'm hard-pressed to think of a car, in or out, that strikes me as ugly as that one (I'm excluding Juke, Aztek, and Cube). My younger brother-in-law drives one that looks like a two-year-old car. It was his wife's late grandmother's. It's a light maroon.

uplanderguy · November 2017

Anybody else notice how many cars on the road that appear to be pretty late-model, have bulbs burned out? I've noticed that for a few months now.

berri · November 2017

You know what else on vehicle lights, as those LED bulbs begin going in the back it starts looking like a jack-o-lantern

berri · November 2017

re: Taurus, Ford paid too much attention to marketing research and ended up hurting a car that was very clean looking when it first came out.

uplanderguy · November 2017

Just more random observations:

Whenever I see a car with a broken ball joint,and wheel and tire broken off, it's invariably an Accord or Civic. Older, yes--probably 2000's. Yes, our roads are terrible in NE OH. But that's a fact.

A Toyota Camry observation--one or two iterations ago--every single one I pull up behind has an exhaust hanging so low it looks like one speed bump will take it out.

GM pickups from the 2000's--every one has a burned-out parking light up front.

Michaell · November 2017

uplanderguy said:
Just more random observations:

Whenever I see a car with a broken ball joint,and wheel and tire broken off, it's invariably an Accord or Civic. Older, yes--probably 2000's. Yes, our roads are terrible in NE OH. But that's a fact.

A Toyota Camry observation--one or two iterations ago--every single one I pull up behind has an exhaust hanging so low it looks like one speed bump will take it out.

GM pickups from the 2000's--every one has a burned-out parking light up front.

Regarding the GM trucks, and SUVs - I was talking to someone at an auto parts store, and that's a known problem with those vehicles. Something to do with the engineering of the DRLs

uplanderguy · November 2017

I've also heard that about the full-size GM pickups. Not just a bulb burning out.

tlong · November 2017

uplanderguy said:
Just more random observations:

Whenever I see a car with a broken ball joint,and wheel and tire broken off, it's invariably an Accord or Civic. Older, yes--probably 2000's. Yes, our roads are terrible in NE OH. But that's a fact.

A Toyota Camry observation--one or two iterations ago--every single one I pull up behind has an exhaust hanging so low it looks like one speed bump will take it out.

GM pickups from the 2000's--every one has a burned-out parking light up front.

I don't know if it's changed, but as you say the older Camry's have a low exhaust with much of the pipe travel visible if you are behind it. It looks like a long poop chute to me.

berri · November 2017

Hmm, I'd be thinking the other side of the male anatomy

uplanderguy · November 2017

LOL

tlong · November 2017

berri said:
Hmm, I'd be thinking the other side of the male anatomy

Well it is both the rear of the car and also the exhaust. So I thought my idea fit better!

berri · November 2017

hahaha!

uplanderguy · November 2017

I drove 20 miles each way to see the Rob Reiner film "LBJ" today. I thoroughly enjoyed it and if you lived through that time, I think you'll enjoy it, especially. It takes place from 1960 to 1964 and ends with the passage of the Civil Rights Act. It doesn't gloss over anything or anyone.

Anyway, I was behind a current-model Camry Hybrid. While not as noticeable as those earlier models, there was a portion of the exhaust that I know would not go over any speed bump without hitting it. Didn't notice any other cars like that en route.

circlew · November 2017

President's crusade for U.S. manufacturing continues

President Donald Trump has pressured American automakers to build new plants in the U.S., and now it’s Japan’s turn to face a little prodding. In Tokyo today, the president called for Japanese automakers to build more cars in the U.S.

“Try building your cars in the United States instead of shipping them over. Is that rude to ask?” Trump said. However, as The Washington Post points out, he also said many Japanese auto industry companies have been “really doing a job” in creating U.S. jobs.

“And we love it when you build cars — if you’re a Japanese firm, we love it,” he said.

Around 75 percent of Japanese-brand vehicles sold in the U.S. are made in North America, according to Japan’s biggest auto trade association. A host of Japanese automakers, including Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Subaru, have plants in the U.S. Looking ahead to 2021, Mazda and Toyota plan to open a new assembly plant together here in the ‘States.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/trump-wants-japanese-automakers-build-cars-u-s/

fushigi · November 2017

Wikipedia shows 22 US-brand plants in the US and, funnily, 22 foreign-brand plants in the US (counting FCA as foreign).

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

berri · November 2017

Even senior executives need to do their homework before speaking

fintail · November 2017

Wasn't 45 whining about German automakers not long ago?

To be fair, I think the Japan babble was more poor word choice than direct lack of knowledge.

circlew · November 2017

American Brands Failing To Make Headway In the Japanese Market Because They Aren't Customer Focused

The Japanese car market has proven to be a really tough place for U.S. manufacturers, who have claimed that protectionist policies keep them out of the third largest car market in the world but the reality is more complicated than that.

Japanese brands account for 90 percent of the domestic car market in Japan and a big role in this is due to the special relationship between the customer and the dealer. Japanese buyers are used to having a much closer relationship with the dealer compared to the Western standards.

According to a report from the Atlantic, a dealer from a Japanese brand will build a relationship with their customers by bringing demo cars to the customer’s house, offer free car washes for life, handle their insurance policies and remain generally in contact with them, offering a service that’s considered kind of a custom in the country.

http://www.carscoops.com/2017/11/why-us-car-makers-cant-get-break-in.html

JJapanese customers expect to receive services like free maintenance from their dealers and picking up their car for a check-up, performing it and then return it. This sort of dealer network is expensive to develop but also to maintain.

uplanderguy · November 2017

I'm all for U.S. manufacturing, and if that includes more and more foreign-based manufacturers' models, great. There's no bad there.

A friend sent me a recent article from Automotive News about Nissan having shipped cars from Japan that didn't meet their own quality standards or the like. I really shouldn't comment more until I read it...which I haven't.

Fairly-big local news here--the Nissan dealer six miles up the road closed abruptly, and employees had no idea. The county newspaper is trying to find out the story.

I will say that despite all the other stuff, I have much-enjoyed the significant upswing in our retirement earnings this year due to the market. I do worry about a correction.

uplanderguy · November 2017

Apparently from Oct. 19, further back than I'd thought:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/business/nissan-japan-suspends-production.html

tlong · November 2017

I believe that a number of Japanese nameplates also produce vehicles in the US that are actually *exported* to other countries.

circlew · November 2017

Additional info on the U.S.-based Asian exports...

This month, Honda is celebrating 35 years of auto manufacturing in the U.S., which began Nov. 1, 1982, with the start of its Accord assembly line in Marysville, Ohio. Even though most Japanese automakers present in the U.S. market today have factories employing tens of thousands of workers, the 1982 opening of the Marysville plant was a landmark moment not only for Honda but for all Japanese manufacturers -- it was the first car plant of a Japanese automaker opened in America.

In total, there are 24 manufacturing plants in 20 states in addition and 43 research, development and design facilities operated by Japanese-brand automakers in the U.S. Together these plants produced just under 4 million vehicles in 2016, more than 400,000 of which were exported to other countries from the U.S.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/honda-marks-35-years-car-manufacture-us

uplanderguy · November 2017

That is good. I believe in supporting local, which is why I've had four new cars and three used (I know, used doesn't count!) built at GM Lordstown. They've all been good, reliable, practical cars, cheap to buy and maintain. The plant has operated there for 51 years.

I paid $11,800 for my new '17 Cruze LT, although I had $5,000 that other people wouldn't have ($3,500 GM card rebate and $1,500 GM Goodwill cash received for a grumbling letter I wrote a few years back, LOL). I could not be happier, especially at that price....seriously. The $11.8K was before my trade-in. With a kid at Miami U. (our second), I especially appreciate a good buy.

The more cars built here, the better. Period. Bring 'em on over here, even more!

And further GM, build the Cruze hatchback at Lordstown instead of Mexico.

GDP and jobless numbers reports, and the stock market, have exceeded expectations in a good way. Let's keep that part of things going. I've seen "Hiring" signs in places I haven't seen in years and years. That is a fact. My good friend works in manufacturing in the Columbus area and they have been busier than ever. Probably speculation, but whatever it is, it seems to be working here.

uplanderguy · November 2017

I wonder if the domestics or import companies employ more in this country (not talking dealerships). I'd include local suppliers. I have no idea so don't know if the numbers are out there or not.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2017

I don't have exact numbers but I did find out that as of 2011 the Big 2.5 employed more people than foreign companies, by a fair margin, and that people who sell cars were more numerous than those who make them. This from 2011 Bureau of Labor Statistics, so it could have changed.

berri · November 2017

Seems like this issue gets beat to death. Truth is, some of the Japanese brands have more domestic content than some Detroit. Sometimes not. Cars are a global market just like Proctor and Gamble brands.

uplanderguy · November 2017

Right. If domestic content and a domestic brand are important to you, it's not very hard to compare window labels. At GM, I'm pretty sure location of engine and transmission assembly are not part of the content percentage. At least it used to be like that..

Lots of things get beat to death on certain forums, LOL.

andres3 · November 2017

Michaell said:
When my wife was looking for a new car a couple of years ago, we looked at the Subaru website to see what colors were available. She found one called "Wilderness Green" that appealed to her. Checked the local inventory and one dealer had the exact car she wanted (bigger engine, right color and options) on the way from Indiana. We placed a $500 refundable deposit on it and waited 2 weeks for it to arrive.

I like that Subaru color. The Forester also has a nice green.

WE almost got a Tungsten Outback, which is a cross between beige and silver.

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