Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

isellhondas · December 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:

It's a TOYOTA! I wouldn't care about the lack of a warranty!

That's what I mean, isell! The one at Rodland Toyota is only $12,614. Spikes - that's cheap! And, you're right, it's a Toyota. Now, in defense of stick's thought (and really mine, too) the Yaris iA has a lot of electronics on board. Although it doesn't have Android Auto, it's got just about every other gadget I would want in the way of music. It has lane stoppage - it'll stop you from 0-18mph if you're staring down at edmunds.com on your cell and aren't paying attention. Not that I'd ever do that!

But the Warranty would be good ta have. Gee, Bozeman is only 557 miles east of me.

The new Chromium one in Tacoma for only $14,496 is only 200 miles west of me. And it's just $138 more than the one in Bozeman, MT. But, and it's a butt the size of Oprah's again, it's Chromium. Chromium is no. 2 ta the Pulse. The car in Bozeman has been on their lot for 225 days now, and that is a negotiable item ta bite down on. Gotta be careful when the car's already so cheap, though, I don't wanna be majorly low-balled on my trade-in.

Well, if they are cheap selling their used car they aren't going to pay more than Actual Cash Value for yours. Just know that going in. At this point I'm not up to date on what used Kias are bringing. I know the Korean makes used to be pretty dismal but I also know they have a much better reputation now.

Our store NEVER EVER had a used car sit on our lot for more than a couple of months. I don't understand how it could be there after 225 days. But, Montana isn't really a Toyota town unlike Seattle or other large cities. It's more for pick ups! Your trade is the only thing I can see that could be a problem. They might not even want it. I think Everett is looking better!

driver100 · December 2017

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:
I like the red the most. $2000 savings for 2 years worth of driving and almost a used up warranty would be a red flag for me.
It's a TOYOTA! I wouldn't care about the lack of a warranty!

Yeh but $1800 savings for a car with over 2 years worth of driving, and it will lose over $1800 being over a year older....even if it had 0 miles on it.
I'd still want a warranty even on a Toyota, if it is costing just a bit more. It might mean having the car for 10 years instead of 8.

The one big difference could be a savings also in transportation cost. That is one thing you could save by buying used.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2017

Really? Isn’t the depreciation on these fairly steep?

suydam - no, it's a Toyota. It'll hold value such that I think we can catch up value to loan balance owing, eventually. It'll take about 4 years, but my note will be 60 months anyway. I am planning on paying a 1/2-monthly payment every 2 weeks to trim 6 payments off the 60-month note. I don't want a car payment during retirement.

isell - my Kia should bring $3,500 or so. I won't go below $3,500...ehh...maybe a couple hundred lower, but that's about it. I am comfortable with the loan numbers with $3,500 tacked on to the car's price of $14,496. The total out the door price would be $17,996 since Montana has no sales tax. $17,996 divided by 60 payments = $299.93. The Soul's payment is $256.03 a month. So you guys can see what I'm looking at here. I'm down wid it totally. We owe $7,101.37 on the Soul still.

stickguy · December 2017

does washington have sales tax? You pay where you live, not where you buy.

isellhondas · December 2017

driver100 said:

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:
I like the red the most. $2000 savings for 2 years worth of driving and almost a used up warranty would be a red flag for me.
It's a TOYOTA! I wouldn't care about the lack of a warranty!

Yeh but $1800 savings for a car with over 2 years worth of driving, and it will lose over $1800 being over a year older....even if it had 0 miles on it.
I'd still want a warranty even on a Toyota, if it is costing just a bit more. It might mean having the car for 10 years instead of 8.

The one big difference could be a savings also in transportation cost. That is one thing you could save by buying used.

I can't remember EVER having a warranty problem on any of the new Hondas or Toyotas I've bought. Most warranty problems such as electrical glitches or adjustments happen very early in a car's life and by the time a few months and miles have gone by they have been addressed so this is why I wouldn't worry.

There ARE cars I wouldn't want to buy without a decent warranty. European cars come to mind!

Michaell · December 2017

stickguy said:
does washington have sales tax? You pay where you live, not where you buy.

Yup.

suydam · December 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:
Really? Isn’t the depreciation on these fairly steep?

suydam - no, it's a Toyota. It'll hold value such that I think we can catch up value to loan balance owing, eventually. It'll take about 4 years, but my note will be 60 months anyway. I am planning on paying a 1/2-monthly payment every 2 weeks to trim 6 payments off the 60-month note. I don't want a car payment during retirement.

isell - my Kia should bring $3,500 or so. I won't go below $3,500...ehh...maybe a couple hundred lower, but that's about it. I am comfortable with the loan numbers with $3,500 tacked on to the car's price of $14,496. The total out the door price would be $17,996 since Montana has no sales tax. $17,996 divided by 60 payments = $299.93. The Soul's payment is $256.03 a month. So you guys can see what I'm looking at here. I'm down wid it totally. We owe $7,101.37 on the Soul still.

It may be a Toyota — but it’s also a Yaris.
I’ve never gotten a warranty, nor needed one, on a Honda or Toyota.

isellhondas · December 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:
Really? Isn’t the depreciation on these fairly steep?

suydam - no, it's a Toyota. It'll hold value such that I think we can catch up value to loan balance owing, eventually. It'll take about 4 years, but my note will be 60 months anyway. I am planning on paying a 1/2-monthly payment every 2 weeks to trim 6 payments off the 60-month note. I don't want a car payment during retirement.

isell - my Kia should bring $3,500 or so. I won't go below $3,500...ehh...maybe a couple hundred lower, but that's about it. I am comfortable with the loan numbers with $3,500 tacked on to the car's price of $14,496. The total out the door price would be $17,996 since Montana has no sales tax. $17,996 divided by 60 payments = $299.93. The Soul's payment is $256.03 a month. So you guys can see what I'm looking at here. I'm down wid it totally. We owe $7,101.37 on the Soul still.

Ah, you WILL pay WA sales tax! Oregon has no sales tax either and when we had an Oregon resident come and buy a car they had to provide us with several solid forms proving they were, indeed OR residents. If there was any property owned in WA they had to pay tax. In rolling over negative equity remember that the lender isn't going to loan more than what the car books out at. Be aware that if you buy in Washington you will receive a sales tax credit. You will only pay tax on the difference. Buying in Montana you may not be able to do that.

isellhondas · December 2017

After re reading your post I didn't realize that you would be rolling 3500.00 in negative equity!

Also when you did your math it looks like to didn't add interest charges.

I know it's none of my business but I think it's doubtful a lender is going to approve this and were you a customer of mine I would be trying to talk you into sitting put and hanging on to your current car!

iluvmysephia1 · December 2017

I'm counting on a year-end Toyota clearance deal with 0% interest. I'd put $500 down as well. I have done these before and I'm surprised you as a car salesman would be so dainty about it, isell. Yes, I would pay every penny rightly owed on as far as taxation goes. Yikes. Tough crowd.

28firefighter · December 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:
I'm counting on a year-end Toyota clearance deal with 0% interest. I'd put $500 down as well. I have done these before and I'm surprised you as a car salesman would be so dainty about it, isell. Yes, I would pay every penny rightly owed on as far as taxation goes. Yikes. Tough crowd.

@isellhondas has a ton of experience, so I doubt he is being dainty. If his experience is that HFS wouldn't finance in this case, then TFS may be the same. Not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying not to poo poo his warning.

I think you can absolutely try and make a deal, just something to keep in mind.

Michaell · December 2017

28firefighter said:

iluvmysephia1 said:
I'm counting on a year-end Toyota clearance deal with 0% interest. I'd put $500 down as well. I have done these before and I'm surprised you as a car salesman would be so dainty about it, isell. Yes, I would pay every penny rightly owed on as far as taxation goes. Yikes. Tough crowd.
@isellhondas has a ton of experience, so I doubt he is being dainty. If his experience is that HFS wouldn't finance in this case, then TFS may be the same. Not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying not to poo poo his warning.

I think you can absolutely try and make a deal, just something to keep in mind.

I'm pretty sure there are limits over MSRP that can be financed. If the MSRP is $16k, the $3500 negative equity is almost 25%.

All depends on the policies of the lender.

dino001 · December 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:
I'm counting on a year-end Toyota clearance deal with 0% interest. I'd put $500 down as well. I have done these before and I'm surprised you as a car salesman would be so dainty about it, isell. Yes, I would pay every penny rightly owed on as far as taxation goes. Yikes. Tough crowd.

He spoke his mind, don't hold it against him. Negative equity is always seen as a yellow flag. Not a disqualifier, but something that's not desirable. Rolling it over to a next long term (60 mo+) is generally compounding already existing issues. A greedy salesman would not care. A good person salesman would ask you a few times if you're sure you want to do this. If there is still a resounding yes, then the F&I would run the numbers. 0% Toyota deal, if available, would be the best way to go, for many reasons - it's Toyota, no interest means fast schedule equity build (or rebuild from negative equity). However, being a subsidized loan (interest is eaten by Toyota behind the scene), they may limit LTV ratio on this deal and you may find out you won't qualify for this particular deal.

abacomike · December 2017

ab348 said:

What's the cost of the other 30% the school isn't paying, Mike?

I just got off the phone with my son. The written and signed scholarship offer requires my grandson to accept on or before January 1, 2018. It’s for 65% of his tuition INCLUDING room and board and fees. So, 65% of $42,300 is about $27,000. Then there is Federal aid which amounts to $5000. Additionally, there’s about $4500 from the company his mother works for for a scholarship. That leaves about $6,000 a year he is responsible for.

They also offered additional increases in the scholarship if tuition increases and/or room and board increases. As part of the agreement, the college will guarantee that he will play a starting pitching position the first year and will add 1st base and hitting his second and following years.

All that remains is for my grandson to sign the commitment letter.

This is very exciting.

explorerx4 · December 2017

@abacomike,
This is an athletic scholarship or academic?
If academic, you still get it if you keep up your grades, on the team or not.

isellhondas · December 2017

I try to pick my words carefully without sugar coating the real facts.

Yes, there were times I would be 100% candid and I would give heartfelt advice that was often appreciated years later. In my final years most of my business came from repeat and referral business.

But, I also learned that when a person had been bitten by the new car bug and were determined to buy a car I would stop being a Dutch Uncle and knowing that if they left our store without a car they would buy elsewhere. At that point I would keep the best interests of our store in mind.

Sometimes, a couple of years later these same people would tire of the car they bought and want to trade it in when they were hopelessly upside down.

I've said all I'm going to say on this. Others have echoed my feelings. I'm done here!

abacomike · December 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:

I'm counting on a year-end Toyota clearance deal with 0% interest. I'd put $500 down as well. I have done these before and I'm surprised you as a car salesman would be so dainty about it, isell. Yes, I would pay every penny rightly owed on as far as taxation goes. Yikes. Tough crowd.

I have to agree with isellhondas on this, iluv. Unless things have changed significantly since I was a sales manager at Infiniti, what you are expecting from the financing arm of an auto manufacturer given your situation may be too much. Tread lightly, my friend and don’t be overly optimistic - add a touch of pessimism to your plan - just a touch.

dino001 · December 2017

isellhondas said:
I try to pick my words carefully without sugar coating the real facts.

Yes, there were times I would be 100% candid and I would give heartfelt advice that was often appreciated years later. In my final years most of my business came from repeat and referral business.

But, I also learned that when a person had been bitten by the new car bug and were determined to buy a car I would stop being a Dutch Uncle and knowing that if they left our store without a car they would buy elsewhere. At that point I would keep the best interests of our store in mind.

Sometimes, a couple of years later these same people would tire of the car they bought and want to trade it in when they were hopelessly upside down.

I've said all I'm going to say on this. Others have echoed my feelings. I'm done here!

Wasn't you telling a story here you had a customer, who wanted newest fully loaded V6 Accord? He was a a local company executive (person with means), but his finances were so stretched in leverage, that he was a proverbial one paycheck from BK? You (or somebody telling the story) said that the guy was so indignant, he left the store. Later on he wanted to write a complaint to the store owner on such a poor treatment he received, but stopped in his tracks, as he realized the truth about his finances and decided to fix them.

driver100 · December 2017

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:
I like the red the most. $2000 savings for 2 years worth of driving and almost a used up warranty would be a red flag for me.
It's a TOYOTA! I wouldn't care about the lack of a warranty!

Yeh but $1800 savings for a car with over 2 years worth of driving, and it will lose over $1800 being over a year older....even if it had 0 miles on it.
I'd still want a warranty even on a Toyota, if it is costing just a bit more. It might mean having the car for 10 years instead of 8.

The one big difference could be a savings also in transportation cost. That is one thing you could save by buying used.
I can't remember EVER having a warranty problem on any of the new Hondas or Toyotas I've bought. Most warranty problems such as electrical glitches or adjustments happen very early in a car's life and by the time a few months and miles have gone by they have been addressed so this is why I wouldn't worry.

There ARE cars I wouldn't want to buy without a decent warranty. European cars come to mind!

It isn't just the warranty we are considering here. We are talking about a car that has over 2 years of mileage on it. The warranty period is almost over, but, that means it will need tires sooner, it will need other things done to it...no matter what make it is....it is worth more than $2000 less because it is a year old with fairly high miles on it. It's not just there won't be a warranty, it is that it will need a few things done a lot sooner.

I would agree warranty doesn't matter if you are buying a 3 year old Toyota and saving 50% or something. But new, verses 2 years of driving, and only saving about 12% of the cost...not even if you count depreciation.

suydam · December 2017

Most of the things it will need —like tires — aren’t covered by these warranties.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2017

And this is abacomike speaking, nonetheless. Wow. Mr. Trade-in every 4 months on another new rig.

Ever notice that when it's someone else's deal, it's time ta be Judge Judy tough, but when it's your own deal well now, have at it and let's pull out all the stops!

driver100 · December 2017

It can't be rated yet for reliability, but the Yaris doesn't score that high overall compared to the competition.

Toyota Yaris Rankings and Research

The 2016 Toyota Yaris ranking is based on its score within the 2016 Subcompact Cars category. Currently the Toyota Yaris has a score of 7.8 out of 10 which is based on our evaluation of 40 pieces of research and data elements using various sources.
Scorecard
Overall: 7.8
Critics' Rating: 6.9
Performance: 6.5
Interior: 7.1
Cost to Own: N/A
Safety: 8.8
Reliability:
4_5
JD Power
Rankings

#11 in 2016 Subcompact Cars
#21 in 2016 Hatchbacks
#24 in Used Subcompact Cars $10K to $15K
#28 in 2016 Affordable Small Cars
#31 in Used Hatchbacks $12K to $15K
#36 in Used Small Cars $12K to $14K

The Yaris is not completely bulletproof.

dino001 · December 2017

driver100 said:

I would agree warranty doesn't matter if you are buying a 3 year old Toyota and saving 50% or something. But new, verses 2 years of driving, and only saving about 12% of the cost...not even if you count depreciation.

Keep dreaming on 50% off on 3-year Toyota

. I generally found similar thing - when it comes to buying low mileage used cars, Hondas and Toyotas are worst in terms of pricing. Dealers are sometimes asking totally insane prices. And customers are often willing to pay them!

I'd say the same thing - 10 or 15 percent off the new sticker is not nearly enough for me to buy a used car, no matter the brand, no matter condition. Perhaps if it was 3000 miles. Just not worth it. However, the spread is much higher - so if you go there and can convince the dealers to knock more off the sticker than you could for a new car, then it's doable. They'd often let you walk, as those things are in demand in those prices, believe or not.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2017

driver100-it's the Yaris iA. I bet you dollars ta glazed Winchell's donuts you're looking up Toyota Yaris numbers.

dino001 · December 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:
And this is abacomike speaking, nonetheless. Wow. Mr. Trade-in every 4 months on another new rig.

Ever notice that when it's someone else's deal, it's time ta be Judge Judy tough, but when it's your own deal well now, have at it and let's pull out all the stops!

Not just him. Hey man, if you can't take the answer, don't ask the question.

And I can say that - I ripped his last deal to the point others told me to shut up. Mike just smiled and let me speak my mind

isellhondas · December 2017

dino001 said:

isellhondas said:
I try to pick my words carefully without sugar coating the real facts.

Yes, there were times I would be 100% candid and I would give heartfelt advice that was often appreciated years later. In my final years most of my business came from repeat and referral business.

But, I also learned that when a person had been bitten by the new car bug and were determined to buy a car I would stop being a Dutch Uncle and knowing that if they left our store without a car they would buy elsewhere. At that point I would keep the best interests of our store in mind.

Sometimes, a couple of years later these same people would tire of the car they bought and want to trade it in when they were hopelessly upside down.

I've said all I'm going to say on this. Others have echoed my feelings. I'm done here!
Wasn't you telling a story here you had a customer, who wanted newest fully loaded V6 Accord? He was a a local company executive (person with means), but his finances were so stretched in leverage, that he was a proverbial one paycheck from BK? You (or somebody telling the story) said that the guy was so indignant, he left the store. Later on he wanted to write a complaint to the store owner on such a poor treatment he received, but stopped in his tracks, as he realized the truth about his finances and decided to fix them.

Yes, that was me. He was a high level manager for a well known software company in the area. I was shocked when I pulled his credit. He had something like 120,000 in credit card debt. He had a couple of large loans for cars, a boat and a huge house payment. He was already making some payments late. No way I could get him approved. There were also accounts his wife had charged to the hilt that he knew nothing about. Finally he push me too hard and I said something I probably should have after he told me how much money he made. I told him that he was one missed paycheck away from bankruptcy. He was TICKED and he stormed out of the store!

Three years later he walked up to my desk...." Do you remember me?" I had to confess that although he looked familiar that I couldn't place him. " Well, I'm the guy you told was one paycheck away from going BK!"

He told me that he had sat up until 2AM with his wife and finally said..." That guy Craig was right"

He thanked me and let me know that he had sold things and had paid off his credit cards and that he was here to buy a car! And he did! He give me 5000.00 down and financed the rest. His beacon score had soared from
the cellar up to the mid 700's! He went on to send me referral customers and he always stopped to chat when in for service.

driver100 · December 2017

suydam said:
Most of the things it will need —like tires — aren’t covered by these warranties.

But if he buys a new car he won't need tires until it has maybe 40000 miles on it....if he buys the one with 28000 miles on it, he will need tires after 12000 miles. He will need filters, lubes, clutch maintenance, anti-freeze and all the other things a car will eventually need....at least 2 years sooner.

isellhondas · December 2017

True. One has to weigh all angles of the deal.

explorerx4 · December 2017

@iluv,
Don't kill the messengers. You have a lot of years experience in auto sales management providing you feedback.
Try to appreciate it.

driver100 · December 2017

iluv, you are going to go from paying $200 a month to paying over $500 a month!

My question would be, why weren't you putting that $500 into paying down the Soul so you could buy the new car free and clear.

A good rule would be never buy a new car unless you at least have some equity, or at minimum owe the same as what your car is worth.

Hate to rain on anyone's parade, but, I think we are really trying to save you from a lot of grief.

isellhondas · December 2017

He has now been given sage advice from people with many years of experience. We've done our job and that is all we can do. I hope all works out well for him with his cars, his new job and buying a house.

oldfarmer50 · December 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:
I'm counting on a year-end Toyota clearance deal with 0% interest. I'd put $500 down as well. I have done these before and I'm surprised you as a car salesman would be so dainty about it, isell. Yes, I would pay every penny rightly owed on as far as taxation goes. Yikes. Tough crowd.

Am I hearing you right, you want to roll $3500 in negative equity into the new loan and expect that Toyota will finance it at 0%? I don't see why Toyota would finance any more than the new car's value at that rate.

I not that savvy in car finance so maybe you know something I don't. Have you checked to see if that kind of deal is doable? If it is I'll be impressed.

andres3 · December 2017

driver100 said:

suydam said:
Most of the things it will need —like tires — aren’t covered by these warranties.
But if he buys a new car he won't need tires until it has maybe 40000 miles on it....if he buys the one with 28000 miles on it, he will need tires after 12000 miles. He will need filters, lubes, clutch maintenance, anti-freeze and all the other things a car will eventually need....at least 2 years sooner.

If he buys my front calipers on my TTS he'll notice the 2nd set of OEM front pads are done at 19,xxx miles. The car is just too fast for those winter pads on the track.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2017

driver - man, if the payment rolls up to $500 a month I would get up and walk. How are you doing up your numbers? Where's brozen? The dealer in Bozeman's had this car for about a year. That gives me a buttload of negotiation power! Don't get your panties in a bunch, guys. And I appreciate the advice, I appreciate it all. We're talking payments of a titch under $300 a month, driver.

Go back to the post above where I detail it all out.

ab348 · December 2017

isellhondas said:

It's a TOYOTA! I wouldn't care about the lack of a warranty!

I thought this one was actually a rebadged Mazda?

abacomike · December 2017

explorerx4 said:

@abacomike, This is an athletic scholarship or academic? If academic, you still get it if you keep up your grades, on the team or not.

Athletic with a requirement that his GPA is 3.5 or better. His scholarship guarantees a position on the team as a pitcher the first year and as a pitcher and first base/hitting second through 4th years.

abacomike · December 2017

@iluvmysephia1

I was trying to be helpful and honest based on my CAR SELLING AND FINANCING experience, not my car “buying” experience. No need to rake me over the coals - that was uncalled for.

And I don’t buy new cars every 4 months - once a year, perhaps, but not every change of season.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2017

abacomike, man, why is everyone in here so touchy today? Is it X-Mas shopping or X-Mas worries at work? Yikes. Man, I'm sincerely sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings in here. Never meant to.

It's all systems go!

tbirdmarco · December 2017

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ilrRcKT3dRI

dino001 · December 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:
abacomike, man, why is everyone in here so touchy today?

I think you’ve started with calling Craig dainty tough crowd. You shouldn’t dish it out, if you can’t take it.

tbirdmarco · December 2017

isellhondas has bin around on these bords for years and quite an few others! to as whell. I have bin lirking around onn and off since 2006 think used to have an different name was not able to loge back in from years ago! we are all cool in hear happy Friday all! have an good weekend to all!

tbirdmarco · December 2017

@qbrozen cool so you boath have old cars and the same new trucks you just never no!

stickguy · December 2017

this whole discussion reminds me of another one of my rules of thumb. the rule of 5. Which is, you should never owe money on a car for more than a combined 5 years (age + years). so a new car, can borrow for 5. 2 years old, 3 year loan max. and 5 YO, no loan. Follow this, and you pretty much can't get in over your head, and should never be well underwater.

tbirdmarco · December 2017

@iluvmysephia1 would wate an bit how menny mor years do you have on your current car lone! I no you do want an new ride you will get one just hang in there an bit longer!

tbirdmarco · December 2017

and don't trust CR or any of those other car rating mags out there! take every thing they say with an big big grane of solt on every thing they rate not just cars! just my two sence! every car brand has it problems get what you like and can afford no have said this on other bords!

qbrozen · December 2017

stickguy said:

this whole discussion reminds me of another one of my rules of thumb. the rule of 5. Which is, you should never owe money on a car for more than a combined 5 years (age + years). so a new car, can borrow for 5. 2 years old, 3 year loan max. and 5 YO, no loan. Follow this, and you pretty much can't get in over your head, and should never be well underwater.

I have a loan on a 50-yr-old car, so guess I should go 50 yrs without payments to make up for that? ;b

stickguy · December 2017

well, in theory, that is an appreciating asset. But I will exclude classics from the theorem.

suydam · December 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:
And this is abacomike speaking, nonetheless. Wow. Mr. Trade-in every 4 months on another new rig.

Ever notice that when it's someone else's deal, it's time ta be Judge Judy tough, but when it's your own deal well now, have at it and let's pull out all the stops!

Umm, I think his budget is a tad larger than yours or mine.

jmonroe · December 2017

mike" rel="nofollow">abaco mike said:
@iluvmysephia1

I was trying to be helpful and honest based on my CAR SELLING AND FINANCING experience, not my car “buying” experience. No need to rake me over the coals - that was uncalled for.

And I don’t buy new cars every 4 months - once a year, perhaps, but not every change of season. </blockquote

Not yet.

Jmonroe

jmonroe · December 2017

suydam said:

iluvmysephia1 said:
And this is abacomike speaking, nonetheless. Wow. Mr. Trade-in every 4 months on another new rig.

Ever notice that when it's someone else's deal, it's time ta be Judge Judy tough, but when it's your own deal well now, have at it and let's pull out all the stops!
Umm, I think his budget is a tad larger than yours or mine.

Don't try to use logic. That ain't fare.

Jmonroe

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