Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

stickguy · September 2018

I would take it. without even looking at the link!

roadburner · September 2018

That dealer has the same GM as my BMW dealer- the guy that ran off all but two of the BMW salespeople and added dealer packs and a high doc fee.

qbrozen · September 2018

The fine lrint for all says "plus dealer add-ons." Oh boy.
But, all else being equal, I'd probably take the XT5 for $30 more.

carnaught · September 2018

The CTS looks like a smokin’n deal if your name is not @graphicguy. So is the XT5, although I understand it’s a slug.

stickguy · September 2018

so the car is $199/month, and the mop and glow stuff is another $175?

roadburner · September 2018

qbrozen said:
The fine lrint for all says "plus dealer add-ons." Oh boy.
But, all else being equal, I'd probably take the XT5 for $30 more.

If I was 25 years older I might an XT5 as well.

qbrozen · September 2018

carnaught said:

The CTS looks like a smokin’n deal if your name is not @graphicguy. So is the XT5, although I understand it’s a slug.

Its a hard knock life when 0-60 in 6.5 secs in an SUV is called "a slug."

circlew · September 2018

Well, the translation for "slug" could be this:

qbrozen · September 2018

Wait... an SUV doesn't handle like a sedan?! Good thing we have reporters to bust scandals like this wide open!
;b

ab348 · September 2018

I wouldn't call the XT5 I had as a loaner a slug by any means, but I didn't like it much. Felt big, heavy, and it had that awful BMW-style beer-tap gearshift which I hated.

benjaminhf · September 2018

This seems like a good deal in terms of used entry-level luxury—a 2015 Acura TLX 2.4 with 50k miles for $15.9k:

https://www.acuraatoxmoor.com/used/Acura/2015-Acura-TLX-fcaa14f30a0e0a6b0a96f79e5affff39.htm

Strange but true, this is c.$2000 less than a 2015 Accord EXL with about the same miles at another local dealer:

https://www.louisvillehondaworld.com/used-Jefferson+County-2015-Honda-Accord-EX+L-1HGCR2F83FA029458

Having owned four Accords, I can say that in almost every way a TLX is significantly better than an Accord. The rear seat is a little less roomy in the TLX, but otherwise....

stickguy · September 2018

nice color combo on the TLX. But I really don't like these without the tech package. At least the 2018s base have a lot more stuff on them.

benjaminhf · September 2018

Yeah, the Tech package for the TLX is expensive (c.$3700 iirc), but it does add some nice stuff—blind spot monitors, cross traffic alert, ELS sound system, Milano leather seats (which even smell nice imho), rain-sensing wipers, built-in navi (which I have used a few times), and AcuraLink concierge (which I've not yet used at all). Plus, as you say, the 2018s and later get CarPlay/AndroidAuto as well as Acurawatch.

But for about the price of a new base Elantra, I'd say that I'd take the TLX for 15.9k any day. Still has that nice engine and transmission combo, 4-wheel steering, etc., etc.

benjaminhf · October 2018

Thinking about the idea @stickguy had of keeping an Acura for ten years, I came across videos by a guy named Tyson Hugie who has over 200,000 miles on his Acura ILX, and over half a million miles on his Legend. This is making me think that if I take care of it, drive carefully, and have some luck, that keeping my 2018 TLX past 100k might be possible. I already have over 5000 miles on it, even though I've only leased it for a little over 3 months. (My wife's 2018 CR-V already has about 6k miles on it.) Anyway, here's the video about his ILX. His 25 year old Legend has made it past 500k with its original engine and transmission.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67pKJVUWCpI&t=3s

benjaminhf · October 2018

Entry level luxury sedan sales for last month. Lexus seems to be doing well....

CLA 2,377 +16.9%
A3 1,759 -9%
ILX 930 -20.9%
2series 630 -32.8%

ES 5,206 +28%
Cclass 4,682 -24.4%
3series 3,615 -40.2%
A4 3,185 +11%
Q60 2,075 -37.8%
TLX 2,064 -15.6%
MKZ 1,886 -7.7%
IS 1,798 -9.2%
Giulia 756 -17%
S60 582 -46.7%
G70 1

stickguy · October 2018

Ouch

benjaminhf · October 2018

But falling sales for ELL cars probably helps to make for the possibility of good deals....

Perhaps I'm the only one to regret it, but it looks like starting next year that lower-powered ELLs won't really be available. Currently the 320i has a 0-60 time, according to BMW, of 7.1 seconds. The Acura TLX 2.4 I have has been timed at 6.9 seconds, which is fast enough for me (and about half a second faster than my 2016 Accord CVT). But for the new generation of 3-series coming up it looks like they've not only eliminated the manual transmission but also taken out the less powerful version. So the lowest level of 2019 330i will have a 0-60 time of less than 6 seconds—but it will also cost c.$6k more than the current bottom-of-the-line 320i. Rumors are that the all-new 2020 Acura TLX will also have an standard 2-liter turbo engine with similar power and acceleration.

That's probably what almost all ELL buyers want in terms of power and acceleration, but once the least expensive 3-series starts at c.$42k msrp before options it might be out of reach for some who might otherwise buy it.

And I'm enjoying that on highway drives without ac I can get as much as 40 mpg with my 2018 TLX with the naturally aspirated 2.4 with the 8-speed transmission. I don't think a 2020 TLX with the 2.0 turbo will be able to get more than maybe 35 on the same drive, but obviously I don't know for sure. I assume that as with the 330i there will be a big price jump for the 2020 TLX. I could afford the current TLX, but the next one might be too rich for my blood....

Finally, if you really are trying to keep a car past 10 years and 100k miles, then perhaps a naturally aspirated engine might be more reliable in the long run?

stickguy · October 2018

But, will be nice if they keep the pricing like the 4, but it has performance of the V6 which I assume is going away.

benjaminhf · October 2018

stickguy said:
But, will be nice if they keep the pricing like the 4, but it has performance of the V6 which I assume is going away.

Yeah, given falling sales for almost all entry-level cars, Acura might not have much room to raise prices.

Here's my guess....the msrp for the base model 2020 TLX might only go up by c.$2k or so, but at the same time (as with the Accord) they will really cut back on lease incentives. In other words, my guess is that the "real" price increase might be more like $5k—almost the same price increase as for the BMW 330i—although like today a TLX will still undercut a comparable 330i by thousands of collars. My lease deal was almost too good, in that I could lease a TLX 2.4 Tech for less than an Accord EXL 2.4. I think that will almost certainly not be possible for the 2020 TLX.

stickguy · October 2018

Most of the time, when I have checked, the Acura lease offers were not particularly good. I think you were right place, right time!

I could see the redesign base model being priced like the current tech car, but with some of those features standard.

stickguy · October 2018

was not actually expecting one, but looks like Acura spent some money on updating the ILX. will be interested in seeing it in person. already had the TLX drivetrain, now seems to have the interior. Hopefully they did some updates to the driving dynamics too.

https://www.acura.com/future-vehicles/acura-ilx/?SP_RID=MjEyOTg4Mzk2NTM4S0&SP_MID=22319340&PROGRAMID=RHYNWSLT&CAMPAIGNCODE=AT9366&OFFERCODE=AT9366&CELLCODE=G1&PID=100286379&LINKNAME=www_acura_com_future_vehicles_acura_2&spMailingID=22319340&spUserID=MjEyOTg4Mzk2NTM4S0&spJobID=1323231396&spReportId=MTMyMzIzMTM5NgS2

carnaught · October 2018

Like that new ILX. Some may critcize it as overstyled but I tend to like a little over styled.

benjaminhf · October 2018

AcuraWatch is now standard on the base 2019 ILX, instead of being a $1300 option. On top of that they've cut the base price by $2300. And so really it's a price cut of about $3500, which shows how much Acura hopes to get some sales. The ILX is now seemingly a good deal for the money, esp compared to say an Audi A3, which comparably equipped costs almost $10k more. The base msrp of the ILX is now $25,900. Unfortunately Acura didn't put CarPlay/AndroidAuto into the base model. But for $27,650 you can get the ILX Premium which adds CarPlay/AA, leather seats, upgraded stereo, power passenger seat, BLIS, built-in garage door opener, etc.

http://hondanews.com/acura-automobiles/releases/2019-acura-ilx-arrives-with-dynamic-new-styling-major-technology-upgrades-and-new-a-spec-treatment

Since the ILX weighs almost 500 pounds less than the TLX, but has almost the same engine and transmission, it is faster. I guess it's kind of a luxury Civic Si with an 8-speed dual clutch transmission....

Nothing that I see in the press release says anything about enhanced driving dynamics, so that's probably very close to the way it was before.

stickguy · October 2018

that is a pretty steep price cut. Wonder if they will eventually have big lease incentives on them!

benjaminhf · October 2018

stickguy said:
that is a pretty steep price cut. Wonder if they will eventually have big lease incentives on them!

My guess is that they are hoping to cut the lease incentive. But that means the monthly payments will probably be about the same as with the 2018s—c. $200 a month+ taxes and so on with c.$2500 das. In other words, only c.$30 a month and c.$500 more das than a lease on a Civic LX. But that's the best case scenario for the base model. The ILX Premium would obviously be a bit more....

stickguy · October 2018

probably going to be some good deals on the handful of leftover 2018s soon. Though at least near me, not all that many to pick from and mostly base models.

benjaminhf · October 2018

Currently there seems to be a $5000+ lease incentive on the last of the 2018 ILXs. But if you wait just a few months you can probably get almost as good a deal on one of the 2019s. Sedans just aren't selling, as you know, and so it's a buyer's market. I bet your local Acura dealer would give you top dollar for your Elantra Sport if you're willing to walk away. But imho the TLX is really the better car. I'd take a base TLX with the 4-wheel steering, slightly more room, etc., etc. over a loaded ILX. If you are considering the ILX, the new style will almost certainly have better resale value.

stickguy · October 2018

I would have to drive them back to back. I do find the ILX to be a better size for normal driving, though the extra room is nice when travelling, and the wife prefers a bigger car. So a TLX would be OK. no bigger than the Sonata I had was.

but I am not giving up goodies to get the bigger model. so would be comparing an ILX premium vs. a TLX tech.

benjaminhf · October 2018

By the end of December I bet they will already be dealing on the 2019 ILXs. The ILX premium with the restyle and the $3.5k price cut is a good msrp. If you can get a good lease incentive of c.3k or so on top of that it should be a nice price/payment overall. The trick is the resale on your Elantra Sport. As you know, once I said I couldn't afford the TLX and it was clear I was willing to walk away, the trade-in offer on my 2016 Accord suddenly increased by quite a bit. I think you might get more from an Acura dealer for the Elantra Sport than from Carvana, esp. if you go in at the end of the sales period (end of Dec.?). They mentioned to me a few times that mine was one of the sales that put them over the top for their sales goal which helped them get a bit of a bonus from corporate.

andres3 · October 2018

roadburner said:
Again, the local dealer are hopeless at best(What can I do to put ya in a car today, pal?)- and with the well know Hyundai proclivity to void warranties at the drop of a hat I could see problems with using it as my instructor car.

I just had a former Ford service advisor come to work for me in another industry. The subject of warranties came up, and he mentioned how Ford Focus RS owner's would come to him after obviously "abusing" their launch control button. IT was funny because his attitude wasn't like mine, which is "why put a button or feature if the car can't handle it?" His attitude was more like, the launch control is just for marketing, and you really shouldn't be using it if you wanted warranty covered.

I simply mentioned how Audi didn't really care, at least at the dealers I'd been too, and he admitted he's heard Ford is more "stuck up" than others, and heard/noticed that Honda will cover just about anything. He's a young guy so I'm sure he was just taking orders and instruction/training from more Senior Ford officials.

This confirms the stories you've heard about Ford voiding any reasonable honor of warranty.

andres3 · October 2018

I like wagons. I liked the Acura TSX wagon they used to make. Any chance they'll make a TLX wagon?

benjaminhf · October 2018

andres3 said:
I like wagons. I liked the Acura TSX wagon they used to make. Any chance they'll make a TLX wagon?

No chance. Wagons are dead. Maybe sedans will be dead next? I wonder if in another couple of years even the ILX will be gone, replaced by an entry-level SUV about the size of the HRV.

stickguy · October 2018

Acura has room for both. I am surprised they have not come out yet with a CUV below the RDX in size. Could be a serious hit. that market is hot right now, and should work well with the Acura customer base (and younger people outgrowing (financially) the Honda brand, but wanting something smaller.

benjaminhf · October 2018

stickguy said:
Acura has room for both. I am surprised they have not come out yet with a CUV below the RDX in size. Could be a serious hit. that market is hot right now, and should work well with the Acura customer base (and younger people outgrowing (financially) the Honda brand, but wanting something smaller.

With sales of the ILX last month down to 930 cars, I'd say the writing is probably on the wall. Acura saved at least a billion dollars by keeping the 2019 ILX on the 2012 Civic platform rather than making an all-new car with the 2016 Civic platform—and they've passed that savings on to the customer. But unless sales somehow explode my guess is that we're only a few years away from the end of the ILX. We'll see.

One weird little factoid is that when the ILX was first introduced for model year 2013 the list price for the base model was $25,900. And now six years later the base price of the ILX is again exactly the same—$25,900. But the 2013 ILX had the comparatively underpowered 2.0 engine as well as a lackluster 5-speed automatic transmission. The 2019 ILX has the TLX's 2.4 plus the TLX's 8-speed dual clutch transmission with torque converter. Plus the 2019 ILX has a better interior than the 2013, a quieter ride, AcuraWatch, etc. When you account for inflation 25,900 in today's dollars would be about 29k. In other words, the 2019 ILX is a much better car with a huge price cut from 2013. But it's still difficult to get around the fact that it's a massively updated and improved 6-year old car—even if the price is now pretty compelling. Perhaps another upside is that it should be completely debugged. That seems to be the case with my 2018 TLX too.

stickguy · October 2018

I saw yesterday there is supposed to be an all new (I assume accord, or RDX platform, based) 2020 TLX. Would not surprise me if they consolidated the current T and I into one sedan model, with trim levels, but added a compact CUV to replace the entry level ILX

benjaminhf · October 2018

It might help ILX sales if Acura got together a group of real people for an online ad to compare a totally loaded ILX A-spec with the Technology Package, including red leather seats, the ELS sound system, etc., which lists for $31,550 and compare it with a base BMW 320i that lists for $34,900. The ILX is almost exactly the same size as a 320i, but gets from 0-60 in c.6.6 seconds compared to 7.1 for the 320i. Get real people to beat a 320i in a drag race to 60 with an ILX. Then compare the red leather in the ILX vs. vinyl in the 320i, as well as all the things the 320i lacks without options—no moonroof, no adaptive cruise control, no CarPlay/AA, $550 extra for any color beyond white, etc. In fact if you skip the A-spec, which is mostly an appearance package, the ILX Tech now lists for $29,550—$5k less than a stripper 320i.

stickguy · October 2018

Well, the new design 3 series coming out did away with the 320. So the strippo model is going to be in the mid-40s. Not even comparable.

Probably need to compare an ILX to a base FWD A3. Or a MB CLA FWD.

ab348 · October 2018

Up until now the ILX has been a car without a market. I think it would require a sea change in buyer perceptions and attitudes to make the new one any different in that respect.

stickguy · October 2018

Ab, that’s why I think it morphs into a CUV, to compete for the younger, entry level luxury buyers. And old people that want something smaller. Think X1, Volvo XC40, mini Infiniti, etc.

sda · October 2018

I thought I had read that the 2018 ILX would be the last, so pleasantly surprised to see it will be around a bit longer and also like the updates. I wonder if they finally added adjustable lumbar support for the driver's seat, and a/c vents for the back seat. A friend's son recently purchased a black '16 ILX base with the 2.4 and loves it. He says it really scoots.

stickguy · October 2018

don't know about the rear seat vents, but it does now come standard with power lumbar.

benjaminhf · October 2018

ab348 said:
Up until now the ILX has been a car without a market. I think it would require a sea change in buyer perceptions and attitudes to make the new one any different in that respect.

Perhaps. In any case, it seems like the ILX might eventually suffer the same fate as the Cadillac ATS.

benjaminhf · October 2018

stickguy said:
Well, the new design 3 series coming out did away with the 320. So the strippo model is going to be in the mid-40s. Not even comparable.

Probably need to compare an ILX to a base FWD A3. Or a MB CLA FWD.

I think the 320 is still available for the next 6 months or so, which makes it still a fair comparison for right now. In any case, the A3 is faster than the ILX, although a lot more expensive.

benjaminhf · October 2018

stickguy said:
Ab, that’s why I think it morphs into a CUV, to compete for the younger, entry level luxury buyers. And old people that want something smaller. Think X1, Volvo XC40, mini Infiniti, etc.

Yes. I think this is almost certain to happen. There have been rumors for a couple of years about it.

benjaminhf · October 2018

@stickguy imho the ILX you might consider is the step above the Premium, which is the Tech. The most important addition at that level is the ELS sound system. It lists for c. $29.5k. But wait for several months, or even the end of the model year, and there are likely to be big discounts and incentives.

Of course, you could also consider waiting for the new, smaller than RDX SUV. My guess is that it'll be introduced for model year 2020, perhaps with a starting msrp of about $31k for the 2-wheel drive version. Of course if you need BLIS and other goodies it'll probably be more like 34K. Still, it's probably going to be a good value for the money—and it will almost certainly have much better resale value than the ILX. The related flip side of that, of course, is that huge discounts on the ILX are sometimes possible, but no such thing is likely for this new SUV.

sda · October 2018

I like the ILX, especially the current and newly updated '19. It isn't too small, and with the Tech model, has most of the features I'd want including the ELS. My main concern from the majority of the reviews I've read is that it has a harsh ride and is noisy, primarily road noise. Not having driven one it maybe fine as a lot of the reviews are overly critical and the reviewers bang the same drum!

benjaminhf · October 2018

sda said:
I like the ILX, especially the current and newly updated '19. It isn't too small, and with the Tech model, has most of the features I'd want including the ELS. My main concern from the majority of the reviews I've read is that it has a harsh ride and is noisy, primarily road noise. Not having driven one it maybe fine as a lot of the reviews are overly critical and the reviewers bang the same drum!

From 2013 to 2015 the ILX did have a lot of road noise, but with the 2016 refresh they added about 100 pounds of insulating material and now it's fairly quiet. Check out this KBB review of the 2017 ILX at c. 2:30 where he says the ILX now has a quiet ride....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovEp5na3Inw&t=150s

qbrozen · October 2018

benjaminhf said:

Up until now the ILX has been a car without a market. I think it would require a sea change in buyer perceptions and attitudes to make the new one any different in that respect.
Perhaps. In any case, it seems like the ILX might eventually suffer the same fate as the Cadillac ATS.

? What fate would that be? I believe the ATS is scheduled to soldier on, although the name is going to change, I believe.

benjaminhf · October 2018

qbrozen said:

benjaminhf said:

ab348 said:
Up until now the ILX has been a car without a market. I think it would require a sea change in buyer perceptions and attitudes to make the new one any different in that respect.
Perhaps. In any case, it seems like the ILX might eventually suffer the same fate as the Cadillac ATS.

? What fate would that be? I believe the ATS is scheduled to soldier on, although the name is going to change, I believe.

I thought the ATS was being phased out over the next few years. But maybe I'm mistaken about that? My local Cadillac dealer has a grand total of 1 2018 ATS in stock.

qbrozen · October 2018

benjaminhf said:

benjaminhf said:

Up until now the ILX has been a car without a market. I think it would require a sea change in buyer perceptions and attitudes to make the new one any different in that respect.
Perhaps. In any case, it seems like the ILX might eventually suffer the same fate as the Cadillac ATS.

? What fate would that be? I believe the ATS is scheduled to soldier on, although the name is going to change, I believe.
I thought the ATS was being phased out over the next few years. But maybe I'm mistaken about that? My local Cadillac dealer has a grand total of 1 2018 ATS in stock.

Wow. Good for them. That is impressive.

The ATS will be named something like CT4 in the near future.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/2020-cadillac-ct5-and-2021-ct3ct4-the-ats-and-cts-renamed-and-repositioned

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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