Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy · March 2019

must be spring break time Mike.

I was passed by a gray S coupe like yours yesterday. Imposing big car.

frustrating of course, so hopefully they get it right this time. If not, you really probably only have 2 options. Never open the roof (not a good option to me!). Or lemon law that sucker. No clue how that would work on a lease where you put so much up front. Unless of course they just swap you into a direct replacement for the duration. That I would do!

abacomike · March 2019

stickguy said:

must be spring break time Mike. I was passed by a gray S coupe like yours yesterday. Imposing big car. frustrating of course, so hopefully they get it right this time. If not, you really probably only have 2 options. Never open the roof (not a good option to me!). Or lemon law that sucker. No clue how that would work on a lease where you put so much up front. Unless of course they just swap you into a direct replacement for the duration. That I would do!

It would have to be a 2019 - there are no 2018 S450’s left with the options I have on it.

They would have to do a “replacement of collateral” since it’s a lease. That is not considered a “lemon law” car. If I lemon law it, they replace the car but it would cost me $ per mile on the current odometer. There are no good options because of the large cap cost reduction.

Since I have owned or leased over 12 MB cars in the past 15 years, MBUSA probably would work out something amenable. Let’s hope they can fix the problem this time for good.

imidazol97 · March 2019

oldfarmer50 said:

Next time buy a Chevy.

I have never had a check engine light on my 2014 Malibu. Same for the 2008 Cobalt.
Just sayin'.

snakeweasel · March 2019

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:
OK boys and girls....todays newest topic is the Check Engine Light!

Yesterday I had to enter the highway and the cars on the highway were really moving, so I stomped it. The yellow check engine light came on. When I got home I tried turning the car off and then on...it was still on. I checked the manual and it said to unscrew the gas cap and put it on tight....which I did. When we went out this morning for groceries it was on, but just when we came out of the second store it was off, and didn't come on again when we went out.

So I checked up about this light, and I will pass this on in case you come across this;
What problems can trigger the Check Engine Light?
Ranging from minor to major, a slew of things can trigger the check engine light to come on in your Mercedes-Benz, including (but not limited to):

Loose gas cap
Faulty fuel injector
Blown gasket heads
Faulty oxygen sensors
Cracked and loose hoses
Faulty mass air flow sensor
Worn out spark plugs and wiring
Emission control system malfunction

I was going to call and make an appointment on Monday if it didn't clear up. From what I read on some cars it should be looked at as soon as possible, but urgent if flashing....also urgent if it is associated with low oil or radiator overheating.

I think in my case I stomped it and it overwhelmed the air flow sensor or the fuel injector but after driving for awhile it corrected itself. Usually, only the garage can read the code, and reset the light. That was a close one...glad I don't have to take it in.
I think I mentioned how the CEL came on just as I was selling my old Lincoln. Stomping on the gas cleared it up. The light on the PT was thought to be a gas cap but turned out to be a leaking gas tank.

My son triggered his check engine light by driving around all day with a blown water pump. Engine got so hot he burned a valve. His current inspection is good until October at which point the car will be sold for parts rather than pay $3000 for a valve job.

Fortunately, by then it will have well over 100k miles and he’ll have gotten his use out of it. Unfortunately, he’ll have to inherit the PT. That’ll learn him.

I don’t know about a MB but on run of the mill domestics a $20 code reader can not only scan for codes but erase them too. Next time buy a Chevy.

Erasing the code won't do you much good without the problem being corrected. The CEL will just come back on in short order and in the meantime it won't be able to pass any emission inspections as they system would note that not enough time has passed to get a reading.

driver100 · March 2019

abacomike said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:
OK boys and girls....todays newest topic is the Check Engine Light!

Yesterday I had to enter the highway and the cars on the highway were really moving, so I stomped it. The yellow check engine light came on. When I got home I tried turning the car off and then on...it was still on. I checked the manual and it said to unscrew the gas cap and put it on tight....which I did. When we went out this morning for groceries it was on, but just when we came out of the second store it was off, and didn't come on again when we went out.

So I checked up about this light, and I will pass this on in case you come across this;
What problems can trigger the Check Engine Light?
Ranging from minor to major, a slew of things can trigger the check engine light to come on in your Mercedes-Benz, including (but not limited to):

Loose gas cap
Faulty fuel injector
Blown gasket heads
Faulty oxygen sensors
Cracked and loose hoses
Faulty mass air flow sensor
Worn out spark plugs and wiring
Emission control system malfunction

I was going to call and make an appointment on Monday if it didn't clear up. From what I read on some cars it should be looked at as soon as possible, but urgent if flashing....also urgent if it is associated with low oil or radiator overheating.

I think in my case I stomped it and it overwhelmed the air flow sensor or the fuel injector but after driving for awhile it corrected itself. Usually, only the garage can read the code, and reset the light. That was a close one...glad I don't have to take it in.
I don’t know about a MB but on run of the mill domestics a $20 code reader can not only scan for codes but erase them too. Next time buy a Chevy.
Good point, a code reader in my hands could do more damage than good. People like me should go to the guy.

I second that - especially for me. “Take it to the guy” or “let the guy look at it” is my motto. That reminds me - my car goes back to the service department tomorrow for another try at getting my sunroof to work.

I don't look forward to spending time at the dealers waiting for my car...or even taking it in and back. It cuts a big hole into the day. Maybe you should ask them to have a courtesy car ready for you. We'd all be interested in your impressions of driving one of these;

driver100 · March 2019

abacomike said:
The Orlando area is crazy with more traffic than I have experienced since leaving NYC 55 years ago. The hotels and motels are jammed. Mostly college aged kids from my observations. Got home at 6:00 PM and I am exhausted.

We avoid Orlando if at all possible....the airport is a nightmare. This is the week the college students are around....especially Daytona Beach. Glad you survived...but, you will have some great memories. btw....I have a belief, often it is good if young players lose a few early games, I have seen some young successful players get too many wins early, they think they are invincible, and they blow themselves up.

Another thing in sports and in business, you can learn more from your mistakes than you do from your successes.

driver100 · March 2019

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Next time buy a Chevy.
I have never had a check engine light on my 2014 Malibu. Same for the 2008 Cobalt.
Just sayin'.

Refinement and precision engineering makes the engine more sensitive......just saying

I have never booted a car like I did this time. I was on a gravel parking lot, and I had to turn right onto a highway with a speed limit of 60mph....but most are driving 80, and they are coming around a bend. I get on when it is clear, but just at that moment a pack of cars are in view, about 1/2 to 3/4s of a football field away....I instantly floored it. Not only that, I had to move ahead and move over the left lane into the left turning lane which was about 200 more yards........the car behaved beautifully, but, it was just a little too much for the engine...maybe sucked in too much air.

I think the last time a check engine light came on was my 67 Ford.

imidazol97 · March 2019

driver100 said:

Like I say, it hasn't happened in way over 30 years....if the light stays on I would rather take it to the guy.

The guy at some of the box stores here connecting a code reader to the ALDC is doing the same thing as the "guy" at the dealership will do for a small fee of $100~.

If the light is off now and stays off, I'd let sleeping dogs lie.

The emissions codes for small leaks like gas cap seals and large leaks such as gas caps loose, do not necessarily reset the next time the car is started. The circumstances have to be correct for the computer to do a leak check.

If you think back, had you refilled the tank to full before this happened and the check engine light occurred after the tank had dropped fuel level to about 3/4. The DTC standards for emissions check on GM's is that the tank has to be between 3/4 and 1/4 or the pressure leak check doesn't run.

Also the engine temp has to be lukewarm. Not cold. Not hot. When the restart occurs. Or else the leak check doesn't run. So engine lights, if due to emissions leak, don't get rechecked and turn off the light until the proper parameters for restart are met.

Your engine light was odd that it came on related to full acceleration.

It's possible it was a loose cap or nonsealing cap, and now it has reset. The DTC code history would show a past code that has been reset.

imidazol97 · March 2019

@driver100

Do one of your acquaintances have a code reader. Just reading the codes, without erasing, is like taking your temperature with a thermometer. It's information but doesn't change anything going on in the body.

Maybe you just surprised the computer on the car when you stepped on it so hard. Maybe it was a transmission-related code.

If it doesn't return I guess just forgetaboutit. My 03 leSabre gave a code occasionally after 150K mi. that indicated a misfire #3 cylinder. I even switched fuel injectors with another cylinder to see if that was the problem. Naah. Just occasionally would give a short engine light and go off. Sometimes no code was set. f

That's Life with cars that are rolling computers.

imidazol97 · March 2019

Met the son and DIL for a Saturday night dinner. Had prime rib for first time in years. I'm still trying to diet to fit back into my polo shirts, the ones without stripes...

Expensive dinner since I hit a hidden pothole on an interstate ramp on the way home. It was hidden because of the rainwater. Cobalt goes in for alignment check Wednesday. I'll then check the alloy rim to see if I have to spend $130 to get a remanufactured one if it's been deformed by the impact.

But it was worth it to see the DIL and son's faces when we told them we wanted to pay for their upcoming trip to New Orleans. It's sort of a second honeymoon since the first one was short because of both their jobs after the wedding. They may as well enjoy some money now as they're paying off her vet school loans instead of years from now when we're both dead and gone.

imidazol97 · March 2019

Ohio legislature is voting to increase gas/diesel taxes to raise more money for the roads. The governor wanted 18 cents and legislature is starting at 6 and going up each of two years in steps to 10 at least for now.

The importance of this is that electric and hybrid vehicles will have to start paying their way with a specific tax on them. $200 EV, $100 Hybrids/annum, IIRC.

I got to send emails and got responses from my replacement legislator in the Ohio House. The old insurance guy is gone--good. Hope he enjoys the retirement he'll probably get from having served 6 years. NOT.

New Ohio legislature guy responded to input through executive aid who read emails, and he even responded personally to my last one. Brief but clearly representative government--exactly as intended since 1803.

dino001 · March 2019

Now Tesla decides to keep the stores open. It clearly looks like Musk is completely losing his marbles. The "genius strategy" is now whatever pops into his head.

stickguy · March 2019

It’s a strategy often employed by politicians and sports team GMs. Come up with a scheme (or trade idea), leak it to the press, and let public reaction “crowd source” viability. If the response is overwhelmingly negative, or “you list you mind”, pull the plug on it and move to Oman B.

dino001 · March 2019

stickguy said:
It’s a strategy often employed by politicians and sports team GMs. Come up with a scheme (or trade idea), leak it to the press, and let public reaction “crowd source” viability. If the response is overwhelmingly negative, or “you list you mind”, pull the plug on it and move to Oman B.

It wasn't a leak, it was an announcement. There is no forethought strategy there. If there was, it means it was a cruel game with hundreds of peoples' lives (employees), just pawning them back and forth. I doubt it, I think it was whatever pops to the genius's head is the strategy for today.

graphicguy · March 2019

WOW....I’m gone a week and you guys start posting like crazy. Not looking back, as you all have posted 100s of times, so can’t catch up.

Saw a Mercedes GLA at the airport parked at the passenger waiting area. Looked new. Liked the outside, but the inside had the OLD dash and interior, which was too bad. It was a GLA 250. The question for you Benz aficionados, is the power plant a 2.0 or a 2.5? Turbo, or not. If it’s a 2.5 and it’s a turbo, my guess is it has some pretty good spunk vs the 2.0. I found it mildly interesting, albeit a tad small.

stickguy · March 2019

It’s the 2.0t. Engine. The new A class is very nice. I assume a GLA version will arrive at some point.

graphicguy · March 2019

BTW....while I was in NYC I was able to take in this musical. It has a touring company, too. If you get the chance to see it, very highly recommended...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z8rlhu0dzgA

abacomike · March 2019

driver100 said:

driver100 said:

OK boys and girls....todays newest topic is the Check Engine Light! Yesterday I had to enter the highway and the cars on the highway were really moving, so I stomped it. The yellow check engine light came on. When I got home I tried turning the car off and then on...it was still on. I checked the manual and it said to unscrew the gas cap and put it on tight....which I did. When we went out this morning for groceries it was on, but just when we came out of the second store it was off, and didn't come on again when we went out. So I checked up about this light, and I will pass this on in case you come across this; What problems can trigger the Check Engine Light? Ranging from minor to major, a slew of things can trigger the check engine light to come on in your Mercedes-Benz, including (but not limited to): Loose gas cap Faulty fuel injector Blown gasket heads Faulty oxygen sensors Cracked and loose hoses Faulty mass air flow sensor Worn out spark plugs and wiring Emission control system malfunction I was going to call and make an appointment on Monday if it didn't clear up. From what I read on some cars it should be looked at as soon as possible, but urgent if flashing....also urgent if it is associated with low oil or radiator overheating. I think in my case I stomped it and it overwhelmed the air flow sensor or the fuel injector but after driving for awhile it corrected itself. Usually, only the garage can read the code, and reset the light. That was a close one...glad I don't have to take it in.
I don’t know about a MB but on run of the mill domestics a $20 code reader can not only scan for codes but erase them too. Next time buy a Chevy.
Good point, a code reader in my hands could do more damage than good. People like me should go to the guy.

I second that - especially for me. “Take it to the guy” or “let the guy look at it” is my motto. That reminds me - my car goes back to the service department tomorrow for another try at getting my sunroof to work.
I don't look forward to spending time at the dealers waiting for my car...or even taking it in and back. It cuts a big hole into the day. Maybe you should ask them to have a courtesy car ready for you. We'd all be interested in your impressions of driving one of these;

They gave me a GLC 300 SUV to drive while they are working on my car. Got to service at 8:50 AM this morning and was on my way up to Boca Raton by 9:10 AM. Easy in and easy out. Have no idea what is wrong with the sunroof mechanism or electronics. Just hoping they find the problem quickly and get it working.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2019

stickguy said:
It’s a strategy often employed by politicians and sports team GMs. Come up with a scheme (or trade idea), leak it to the press, and let public reaction “crowd source” viability. If the response is overwhelmingly negative, or “you list you mind”, pull the plug on it and move to Oman B.

That's right. It's like a free business plan analysis. Although in Musk's case, the premise behind the idea seemed so....so....knuckleheaded....that I'm surprised he had the nerve to float it. The idea that somehow having just online sales would generate more sales than online + storefronts are doing now, is just.....illogical. Added to that, you have a whole slew of new EVs coming out to challenge Tesla, and some of them are very VERY good.

[Deleted User] · March 2019

dino001 said:

stickguy said:
It’s a strategy often employed by politicians and sports team GMs. Come up with a scheme (or trade idea), leak it to the press, and let public reaction “crowd source” viability. If the response is overwhelmingly negative, or “you list you mind”, pull the plug on it and move to Oman B.
It wasn't a leak, it was an announcement. There is no forethought strategy there. If there was, it means it was a cruel game with hundreds of peoples' lives (employees), just pawning them back and forth. I doubt it, I think it was whatever pops to the genius's head is the strategy for today.

I agree, it was badly executed. In my engineering world we rapid prototype and test concepts before going for full release. They could have tried the concept with an anti-Tesla state before announcing the concept worldwide.

driver100 · March 2019

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

Like I say, it hasn't happened in way over 30 years....if the light stays on I would rather take it to the guy.
It's possible it was a loose cap or nonsealing cap, and now it has reset. The DTC code history would show a past code that has been reset.

Your posts on this subject were greatly appreciated and interesting to read. The more info the more I feel I have learned something.

Nice taking the kids out for dinner and paying for their trip....they sound like good hard working kids that you must be proud of. Whenever we spend money these days i tell Mrs D., it isn't coming out of my pocket, it is coming out of the kids inheritance anyway.

[Deleted User] · March 2019

Mr_Shiftright said:

stickguy said:
It’s a strategy often employed by politicians and sports team GMs. Come up with a scheme (or trade idea), leak it to the press, and let public reaction “crowd source” viability. If the response is overwhelmingly negative, or “you list you mind”, pull the plug on it and move to Oman B.
That's right. It's like a free business plan analysis. Although in Musk's case, the premise behind the idea seemed so....so....knuckleheaded....that I'm surprised he had the nerve to float it. The idea that somehow having just online sales would generate more sales than online + storefronts are doing now, is just.....illogical. Added to that, you have a whole slew of new EVs coming out to challenge Tesla, and some of them are very VERY good.

Fantasic. Which EVs are you thinking are VERY good? I still haven't seen one I'd buy but with my heavy work travel lately I'm pretty disconnected right now. The Audi and MB I saw had ridiculously bad efficiency. Any 300ism-mile SUVs announced yet? That's what I'll be looking for in a few years.

dino001 · March 2019

tyguy said:

dino001 said:

stickguy said:
It’s a strategy often employed by politicians and sports team GMs. Come up with a scheme (or trade idea), leak it to the press, and let public reaction “crowd source” viability. If the response is overwhelmingly negative, or “you list you mind”, pull the plug on it and move to Oman B.
It wasn't a leak, it was an announcement. There is no forethought strategy there. If there was, it means it was a cruel game with hundreds of peoples' lives (employees), just pawning them back and forth. I doubt it, I think it was whatever pops to the genius's head is the strategy for today.
I agree, it was badly executed. In my engineering world we rapid prototype and test concepts before going for full release. They could have tried the concept with an anti-Tesla state before announcing the concept worldwide.

BTW, the hits just keep on coming. German regulators (you know government there takes itself much more seriously than here) just forced Tesla to stop spewing that whole BS about "price" of the vehicle based on "fuel savings". They say price is the price, not some ephemeral number you arrive by subtracting five other things from "savings" that are based on assumption for fuel at 50% higher than it is today. What a concept - price is the price??? Complete outrage. These Germans... they must hate electric and love global warming, I guess.

dino001 · March 2019

tyguy said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

stickguy said:
It’s a strategy often employed by politicians and sports team GMs. Come up with a scheme (or trade idea), leak it to the press, and let public reaction “crowd source” viability. If the response is overwhelmingly negative, or “you list you mind”, pull the plug on it and move to Oman B.
That's right. It's like a free business plan analysis. Although in Musk's case, the premise behind the idea seemed so....so....knuckleheaded....that I'm surprised he had the nerve to float it. The idea that somehow having just online sales would generate more sales than online + storefronts are doing now, is just.....illogical. Added to that, you have a whole slew of new EVs coming out to challenge Tesla, and some of them are very VERY good.
Fantasic. Which EVs are you thinking are VERY good? I still haven't seen one I'd buy but with my heavy work travel lately I'm pretty disconnected right now. The Audi and MB I saw had ridiculously bad efficiency. Any 300ism-mile SUVs announced yet? That's what I'll be looking for in a few years.

I think all press on both sides of the Ocean say Jaguar I-Pace is the winner. Admittedly 240 mile range, but that's in comparison to Tesla X's 295 miles and I don't have particular faith in truthfulness of Tesla's marketing. It also looks like Tesla Y was a pure knee-jerk reaction to keep believers from looking at some of those mainstream manufacturer's announcements. It looks for now as real as the 5-second 0-60 semi-truck (like somebody actually needed one).

Tesla's problem is clearly all of their "faithful" already got one. Now it will be actually selling to people not massive prayers lead by Elon The Great.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2019

tyguy said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

stickguy said:
It’s a strategy often employed by politicians and sports team GMs. Come up with a scheme (or trade idea), leak it to the press, and let public reaction “crowd source” viability. If the response is overwhelmingly negative, or “you list you mind”, pull the plug on it and move to Oman B.
That's right. It's like a free business plan analysis. Although in Musk's case, the premise behind the idea seemed so....so....knuckleheaded....that I'm surprised he had the nerve to float it. The idea that somehow having just online sales would generate more sales than online + storefronts are doing now, is just.....illogical. Added to that, you have a whole slew of new EVs coming out to challenge Tesla, and some of them are very VERY good.
Fantasic. Which EVs are you thinking are VERY good? I still haven't seen one I'd buy but with my heavy work travel lately I'm pretty disconnected right now. The Audi and MB I saw had ridiculously bad efficiency. Any 300ism-mile SUVs announced yet? That's what I'll be looking for in a few years.

VW MEB
Byton M-Byte
Polestar 2
BMW iVision

The Chevy Bolt will go 300 miles already. I have a screenshot here, and this was not done "hypermiling". It's a mixed city/hwy result in fair weather and level ground at normal speeds.

Also, keep in mind that "competitor" isn't all about range--it's about price, and about service and about reliability, none of which Tesla excels at, at the moment.

You know how it is--the buying public willl desert one product for another in a red hot minute if it perceives a better value.

[Deleted User] · March 2019

Germans are pushing hard for EV and I love to see it. Personally I think the Chinese will become the leaders and will use this opportunity to penetrate new markets with their vehicles, but the Germans will be close behind. America will be the laggard of the developed world.

Having spent the last few weeks traveling in Europe I was surprised to see how much respect day-to-day citizens had for Tesla. Each and every person who learned I drove a Tesla wanted to learn all about it and mentioned wanting one. Pricing was pretty crazy at the time but that was before the big cuts were announced. Now with the increases I have no idea how much pricing will be.

There are plenty of Tesla haters out there, but generally people respect what they're trying to accomplish. This may be a big statement that some will disagree with, but when EV really takes off beyond the early adopters, it'll be because of Tesla. It might have happened eventually without them, but Tesla is responsible for all the R&D being spent on it right now. Elon owns plenty of negativity, but also the accomplishments that have come along.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2019

It's not "haters"--it's called "critics" and they have a good basis to criticize Tesla with what seems to be some solid data. There's a difference I think between stating Tesla to be as good as it is, rather than trying to make it better than it is.

It's like what they say about Hollywood: "You're only as good as your next movie".

Tesla had better not spend a minute resting on past laurels.

[Deleted User] · March 2019

Mr_Shiftright said:

tyguy said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

stickguy said:
It’s a strategy often employed by politicians and sports team GMs. Come up with a scheme (or trade idea), leak it to the press, and let public reaction “crowd source” viability. If the response is overwhelmingly negative, or “you list you mind”, pull the plug on it and move to Oman B.
That's right. It's like a free business plan analysis. Although in Musk's case, the premise behind the idea seemed so....so....knuckleheaded....that I'm surprised he had the nerve to float it. The idea that somehow having just online sales would generate more sales than online + storefronts are doing now, is just.....illogical. Added to that, you have a whole slew of new EVs coming out to challenge Tesla, and some of them are very VERY good.
Fantasic. Which EVs are you thinking are VERY good? I still haven't seen one I'd buy but with my heavy work travel lately I'm pretty disconnected right now. The Audi and MB I saw had ridiculously bad efficiency. Any 300ism-mile SUVs announced yet? That's what I'll be looking for in a few years.
VW MEB
Byton M-Byte
Polestar 2
BMW iVision

The Chevy Bolt will go 300 miles already. I have a screenshot to prove it!

I wouldn't consider the Bolt a VERY good car, but people have different expectations. The energy used indicates they hypermiled the Bolt to get to 300 miles, and a long range Model 3 hit over 600 miles in hypermiling. Are any of those other vehicles in metal yet and available for real-world testing, and are any SUVish? EV seems to be one of these areas long on promises and short on delivery, so I'm always skeptical. I'm genuinely interested, though. We WILL replace our last gasser in 3 years and I'd like to see more options available.

dino001 · March 2019

tyguy said:

There are plenty of Tesla haters out there, but generally people respect what they're trying to accomplish. This may be a big statement that some will disagree with, but when EV really takes off beyond the early adopters, it'll be because of Tesla. It might have happened eventually without them, but Tesla is responsible for all the R&D being spent on it right now. Elon owns plenty of negativity, but also the accomplishments that have come along.

I don't hate Tesla. I strongly dislike Musk, because I think he is a pathological liar with IQ of 180, making him a particularly dangerous person. He is also petty, thin-skinned, but mostly he lies. Constantly. Then he doesn't take responsibility for his words and lashes out on everybody who calls him on it. Wait, there is one more guy he reminds me... Just lower IQ.

When it comes to the cars themselves, I'm actually happy they pushed as far as they got, but I'm a skeptic. I think it will be DeLorean, after it's all done. Cool car, icon, bankrupt company. But I can be wrong, of course.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2019

No, as I stated, they did not hypermile. This is based on normal driving, under very good conditions for an EV.

The Kias are certainly CUV-ish, and besides, the Tesla Model X is not a very good product, turns out.

[Deleted User] · March 2019

dino001 said:

tyguy said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

stickguy said:
It’s a strategy often employed by politicians and sports team GMs. Come up with a scheme (or trade idea), leak it to the press, and let public reaction “crowd source” viability. If the response is overwhelmingly negative, or “you list you mind”, pull the plug on it and move to Oman B.
That's right. It's like a free business plan analysis. Although in Musk's case, the premise behind the idea seemed so....so....knuckleheaded....that I'm surprised he had the nerve to float it. The idea that somehow having just online sales would generate more sales than online + storefronts are doing now, is just.....illogical. Added to that, you have a whole slew of new EVs coming out to challenge Tesla, and some of them are very VERY good.
Fantasic. Which EVs are you thinking are VERY good? I still haven't seen one I'd buy but with my heavy work travel lately I'm pretty disconnected right now. The Audi and MB I saw had ridiculously bad efficiency. Any 300ism-mile SUVs announced yet? That's what I'll be looking for in a few years.
I think all press on both sides of the Ocean say Jaguar I-Pace is the winner. Admittedly 240 mile range, but that's in comparison to Tesla X's 295 miles and I don't have particular faith in truthfulness of Tesla's marketing. It also looks like Tesla Y was a pure knee-jerk reaction to keep believers from looking at some of those mainstream manufacturer's announcements. It looks for now as real as the 5-second 0-60 semi-truck (like somebody actually needed one).

Tesla's problem is clearly all of their "faithful" already got one. Now it will be actually selling to people not massive prayers lead by Elon The Great.

You do realize the 5-second semi-trucks exist today in testing, right? And there are orders for them? And that the Y prototype is going through testing and will be available for normal drivers to test out next week? What's not real about these?

The iPace is a bit ugly in my personal opinion and the range is a non-starter for me, but I hope they sell the crap out of them to show the market there's good reason to keep investing in more R&D. I think they'll be able to squeeze out a lot more mileage from that big battery in the future.

[Deleted User] · March 2019

Mr_Shiftright said:
It's not "haters"--it's called "critics" and they have a good basis to criticize Tesla with what seems to be some solid data. There's a difference I think between stating Tesla to be as good as it is, rather than trying to make it better than it is.

It's like what they say about Hollywood: "You're only as good as your next movie".

Tesla had better not spend a minute resting on past laurels.

There are critics, people who criticize on facts, and haters who distort the facts. Different tactics and people.

And NO auto company can rest on it's past laurels, and that includes the current crop of established players.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2019

I seriously have doubts about Tesla even surviving, looking at the numbers, but the company does seem pretty good at living on the edge, so I may be wrong.

What I really wonder about is why Musk ever got into the car business at all--of all things that he could have done.

[Deleted User] · March 2019

Mr_Shiftright said:
No, as I stated, they did not hypermile. This is based on normal driving, under very good conditions for an EV.

The Kias are certainly CUV-ish, and besides, the Tesla Model X is not a very good product, turns out.

What I need is storage, not CUV styling. Around 35 cu ft in the back with the back seats up. I'm not a fan of the X, either. I hate the rear doors and the overall styling.

Sorry, but the Bolt just can't hit 300 miles without non-typical driving conditions. Not because it's a bad car or anything, but because the battery is too small. Do they have an energy graph and average speed? It's like someone with a Ford Explorer getting 40 MPG, and then you find out the drove it the entire way downhill with wind at their back and turned off the motor during the straightaway sections.

[Deleted User] · March 2019

Mr_Shiftright said:
I seriously have doubts about Tesla even surviving, looking at the numbers, but the company does seem pretty good at living on the edge, so I may be wrong.

What I really wonder about is why Musk ever got into the car business at all--of all things that he could have done.

Musk has been very public about why he built Tesla: no one else would. He wants to see EV succeed and no one was investing, so he did. Tesla was built for the sole purpose of showing the public that EV can be sexy and practical. That's why I think he'll sell at some point so he can devote more time to his next passion, putting humans on Mars.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2019

tyguy said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
No, as I stated, they did not hypermile. This is based on normal driving, under very good conditions for an EV.

The Kias are certainly CUV-ish, and besides, the Tesla Model X is not a very good product, turns out.
What I need is storage, not CUV styling. Around 35 cu ft in the back with the back seats up. I'm not a fan of the X, either. I hate the rear doors and the overall styling.

Sorry, but the Bolt just can't hit 300 miles without non-typical driving conditions. Not because it's a bad car or anything, but because the battery is too small. Do they have an energy graph and average speed? It's like someone with a Ford Explorer getting 40 MPG, and then you find out the drove it the entire way downhill with wind at their back and turned off the motor during the straightaway sections.

I can assure you once again that the Bolt was not driven under hypermiling. This is an actual real world result.

Conditions were close to ideal with temperature reading from 50 to 60-ish degrees. 100 or so of the miles were on the highway @ 50-60 mph, with the remaining 200 miles being in city driving. Battery was fully depleted at the end of the test.

Here is a video report if you're interested:

https://insideevs.com/driving-300-miles-single-charge-chevrolet-bolt-video/

[Deleted User] · March 2019

Unfortunately the video just shows the aftermath and doesn't document the drive. Wind, elevation change, number of stops, etc...? When I turn off heating and AC systems on the 3, and keep the speed below 55ish mph, it'll average about 175 watts/mile across relatively flat grounds with no wind, and with a 75 kwh battery, that equates to about 425 miles of range. It has everything to do with battery size and efficiency per mile, just like an ICE gas tank size and mpg. The 3 can get even better than that but it's just not real for daily driving. With heaters running, higher freeway speeds, and using the Tesla fun pedal, 300 miles is much more realistic in my personal driving, just like 240 miles is for a Bolt because of it's smaller battery (60 kwH vs 75 kwH). The worst I've seen so far, when the wind was blowing perpendicular to forward direction, traveling at 75 mph, and negative temps, I averaged about 325 watts/mile over 130 miles out and back, which means my range would have been down to 230 miles. Canada-like temps or traveling uphill would make it even worse.

It is nice to see the Bolt getting decent efficiency per mile. My uncle loves his.

Edit: used the wrong designation for watts/mile and corrected; sorry about that.

dino001 · March 2019

tyguy said:

You do realize the 5-second semi-trucks exist today in testing, right? And there are orders for them? And that the Y prototype is going through testing and will be available for normal drivers to test out next week? What's not real about these?

You really believe in it, all the way, don't you? "Available to normal drivers" - you mean, same way Tesla 3 was "available" three years ago? And who needs or wants 5-second semi-truck? Seriously, that's really as stupid as it gets. BTW, "in testing" can also mean a lot of things. It can mean fully assembled vehicle going through paces in a facility near the North Pole, death Valley, or it could also mean tire small-scale tests on the battery, wheels, or frame. I have no idea what and no faith in any of Musk's claims, because HE LIES ALL THE TIME! Oh, no, I forgot, another genius called (that was was self-proclaimed, though, not real) it "truthful exaggeration".

[Deleted User] · March 2019

dino001 said:

tyguy said:

You do realize the 5-second semi-trucks exist today in testing, right? And there are orders for them? And that the Y prototype is going through testing and will be available for normal drivers to test out next week? What's not real about these?
You really believe in it, all the way, don't you? "Available to normal drivers" - you mean, same way Tesla 3 was "available" three years ago? And who needs or wants 5-second semi-truck? Seriously, that's really as stupid as it gets. BTW, "in testing" can also mean a lot of things. It can mean fully assembled vehicle going through paces in a facility near the North Pole, death Valley, or it could also mean tire small-scale tests on the battery, wheels, or frame. I have no idea what and no faith in any of Musk's claims, because HE LIES ALL THE TIME!

Sorry to trigger your anger. It wasn't intentional.

Since you're so hostile with me, then I recommend google searching for images of the truck in testing. I'll just leave it at that.

Have a nice day.

dino001 · March 2019

tyguy said:

dino001 said:

tyguy said:

You do realize the 5-second semi-trucks exist today in testing, right? And there are orders for them? And that the Y prototype is going through testing and will be available for normal drivers to test out next week? What's not real about these?
You really believe in it, all the way, don't you? "Available to normal drivers" - you mean, same way Tesla 3 was "available" three years ago? And who needs or wants 5-second semi-truck? Seriously, that's really as stupid as it gets. BTW, "in testing" can also mean a lot of things. It can mean fully assembled vehicle going through paces in a facility near the North Pole, death Valley, or it could also mean tire small-scale tests on the battery, wheels, or frame. I have no idea what and no faith in any of Musk's claims, because HE LIES ALL THE TIME!
Sorry to trigger your anger. It wasn't intentional.

Since you're so hostile with me, then I recommend google searching for images of the truck in testing. I'll just leave it at that.

Have a nice day.

OK, no problem. I'm not angry at you, that exclamation was an emphasis. But I am angry at Musk, of course not for his trying, or even arrogance (there plenty of arrogant people, those amuse me more than anger), but for that deception he does and lack of responsibility for his words. My pet peeve has always been overpromise and underdeliver. I just can't stand it in any form. He took that to completely new level that I haven't seen before, other than in con artists and cult leaders, and people give him a pass, just because what he "wants" to achieve all those proclaimed noble things. All would be OK (great even), if not the fact that he is playing with other peoples' money (not mine) and he was truthful about the expectations.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2019

tyguy said:
Unfortunately the video just shows the aftermath and doesn't document the drive. Wind, elevation change, number of stops, etc...? When I turn off heating and AC systems on the 3, and keep the speed below 55ish mph, it'll average about 175 watts/mile across relatively flat grounds with no wind, and with a 75 kwh battery, that equates to about 425 miles of range. It has everything to do with battery size and efficiency per mile, just like an ICE gas tank size and mpg. The 3 can get even better than that but it's just not real for daily driving. With heaters running, higher freeway speeds, and using the Tesla fun pedal, 300 miles is much more realistic in my personal driving, just like 240 miles is for a Bolt because of it's smaller battery (60 kwH vs 75 kwH). The worst I've seen so far, when the wind was blowing perpendicular to forward direction, traveling at 75 mph, and negative temps, I averaged about 325 watts/mile over 130 miles out and back, which means my range would have been down to 230 miles. Canada-like temps or traveling uphill would make it even worse.

It is nice to see the Bolt getting decent efficiency per mile. My uncle loves his.

Edit: used the wrong designation for watts/mile and corrected; sorry about that.

Well look. The car went 300 miles in the real world. Like an arrow hitting its target, the wind, elevation and number of feathers doesn't really matter---it hit the target. At least that's how I view it. This isn't GM with "real people, not actors". This video was done by....just a GUY...and he got in is Bolt and squeezed 300 miles out of it. I don't think he was paying attention to minute details of physics. He earned his bragging rights fair and square.

stickguy · March 2019

the Kona has gotten very positive reviews I think. With respectable range.

Musk? I can see dropping stores, if, as I have wondered, he really does plan to sell off the car making to some other company that already makes cars, and keep the battery/infrastructure stuff to make money off of.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2019

Might be a good move. Car manufacturing is a massively capital-hungry enterprise. It is never satisfied, either. Tesla's early edge (first out of the gate) is diminishing. I think the company is just spread too thin, from all the data I have researched. It all reminds me of what happened to Kaiser in the post WW II era. This company also had an early lead, and a very good product, but the competition caught up with them and Kaiser-Frazer simply did not have the financial horsepower to keeping slugging it out with GM and Ford and Chrysler.

qbrozen · March 2019

tyguy said:

I recommend google searching for images of the truck in testing. I'll just leave it at that.

I'm finding it hard to swallow, to be honest. I'll reserve judgement until I see it functioning with a fully-loaded trailer.

driver100 · March 2019

Mr_Shiftright said:

tyguy said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
No, as I stated, they did not hypermile. This is based on normal driving, under very good conditions for an EV.

The Kias are certainly CUV-ish, and besides, the Tesla Model X is not a very good product, turns out.
What I need is storage, not CUV styling. Around 35 cu ft in the back with the back seats up. I'm not a fan of the X, either. I hate the rear doors and the overall styling.

Sorry, but the Bolt just can't hit 300 miles without non-typical driving conditions. Not because it's a bad car or anything, but because the battery is too small. Do they have an energy graph and average speed? It's like someone with a Ford Explorer getting 40 MPG, and then you find out the drove it the entire way downhill with wind at their back and turned off the motor during the straightaway sections.
I can assure you once again that the Bolt was not driven under hypermiling. This is an actual real world result.

Conditions were close to ideal with temperature reading from 50 to 60-ish degrees. 100 or so of the miles were on the highway @ 50-60 mph, with the remaining 200 miles being in city driving. Battery was fully depleted at the end of the test.

Here is a video report if you're interested:

https://insideevs.com/driving-300-miles-single-charge-chevrolet-bolt-video/

Between 50 and 60 degrees.....so real world conditions if you don't need air conditioning or heat...or get stuck in a traffic jam. Where can I be sure to find those conditions 24/7?

suydam · March 2019

I’m kinda interested in the Kona actually. I am a little leery of the tiny plasticky buttons. I do prefer a nicer interior, which the Volt has. But the Kona’s seats are generally praised whereas everyone complains about the Bolts. I look forward to driving one. I’d love a Tesla myself but it’s not in my price range.

28firefighter · March 2019

I admire what Tesla has done and is aiming to do. However I find Elon Musk's penchant for lying (or exaggerating or bending the truth) leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. I'll believe all of the things in the pipeline with Tesla when I see them going to market.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2019

driver100 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

tyguy said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
No, as I stated, they did not hypermile. This is based on normal driving, under very good conditions for an EV.

The Kias are certainly CUV-ish, and besides, the Tesla Model X is not a very good product, turns out.
What I need is storage, not CUV styling. Around 35 cu ft in the back with the back seats up. I'm not a fan of the X, either. I hate the rear doors and the overall styling.

Sorry, but the Bolt just can't hit 300 miles without non-typical driving conditions. Not because it's a bad car or anything, but because the battery is too small. Do they have an energy graph and average speed? It's like someone with a Ford Explorer getting 40 MPG, and then you find out the drove it the entire way downhill with wind at their back and turned off the motor during the straightaway sections.
I can assure you once again that the Bolt was not driven under hypermiling. This is an actual real world result.

Conditions were close to ideal with temperature reading from 50 to 60-ish degrees. 100 or so of the miles were on the highway @ 50-60 mph, with the remaining 200 miles being in city driving. Battery was fully depleted at the end of the test.

Here is a video report if you're interested:

https://insideevs.com/driving-300-miles-single-charge-chevrolet-bolt-video/

Between 50 and 60 degrees.....so real world conditions if you don't need air conditioning or heat...or get stuck in a traffic jam. Where can I be sure to find those conditions 24/7?

The same holds true for a Tesla if you try to go 300 miles in severe weather--you aren't going to. A battery is a battery is a battery, whether it's a Model S or your flashlight.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2019

28firefighter said:
I admire what Tesla has done and is aiming to do. However I find Elon Musk's penchant for lying (or exaggerating or bending the truth) leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. I'll believe all of the things in the pipeline with Tesla when I see them going to market.

Elon is a super-salesman. So it's wise to believe as much as what any super salesman will tell you---there will be an artful blend of fact and fiction.

driver100 · March 2019

Mr_Shiftright said:

driver100 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

tyguy said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
No, as I stated, they did not hypermile. This is based on normal driving, under very good conditions for an EV.

The Kias are certainly CUV-ish, and besides, the Tesla Model X is not a very good product, turns out.
What I need is storage, not CUV styling. Around 35 cu ft in the back with the back seats up. I'm not a fan of the X, either. I hate the rear doors and the overall styling.

Sorry, but the Bolt just can't hit 300 miles without non-typical driving conditions. Not because it's a bad car or anything, but because the battery is too small. Do they have an energy graph and average speed? It's like someone with a Ford Explorer getting 40 MPG, and then you find out the drove it the entire way downhill with wind at their back and turned off the motor during the straightaway sections.
I can assure you once again that the Bolt was not driven under hypermiling. This is an actual real world result.

Conditions were close to ideal with temperature reading from 50 to 60-ish degrees. 100 or so of the miles were on the highway @ 50-60 mph, with the remaining 200 miles being in city driving. Battery was fully depleted at the end of the test.

Here is a video report if you're interested:

https://insideevs.com/driving-300-miles-single-charge-chevrolet-bolt-video/

Between 50 and 60 degrees.....so real world conditions if you don't need air conditioning or heat...or get stuck in a traffic jam. Where can I be sure to find those conditions 24/7?
The same holds true for a Tesla if you try to go 300 miles in severe weather--you aren't going to. A battery is a battery is a battery, whether it's a Model S or your flashlight.

Not even comparing to a Tesla, I would want a minimum of 300 miles under normal conditions, and ideally 500 miles. 300 miles could mean about a 100 mile trip one way, with a bit of leeway just in case. Either that or instant super fast recharging. Nah, on second thought, I like my gas eater!

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