Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100 · September 2019

stickguy said:
I gave them all the info about the car, and they gave me a number. No different than Carvana really, it is just contingent on it being like you told them it was.

I thought they would want to see the trade-in, so they can walk around it and try to find things that are wrong so they can knock the value down. I found they always took the key and someone took it for a spin.

Having been in sales I think I would feel uneasy about buying a new car online. For one thing, I am going to go and look at the car and test drive it before I buy...maybe even test drive a few cars. I build up a bit of a relationship with the salesman, and he can answer my questions...maybe give me valuable information that helps me make a choice. Then I go to buy and I dump him! And, I don't know about walking out too easily, next dealer is a lot further away and is probably not as good.

I would rather have a good knowledgeable salesperson, work with them on what I think is a fair price having done my homework, and then draw up the deal.

driver100 · September 2019

snakeweasel said:
well picked up the 428 today. Drove it home and became a disgrace to BMW drivers everywhere, I used my turn signals.

The one thing I really liked was the heads up display.

You will have to learn how to cut in and out of traffic, never let anyone in, always be the first away at a light.
Actually, I like to be extra courteous in the MB, I think people are happily surprised when I let them into traffic or I let someone cross the street. And, it makes me feel good too!

HUD is a nice feature. I use it a lot because I go through a lot of areas that are school zones (25 mph) and they have radar set up where the speed limit comes down quickly. So much easier to look at the HUD display....doesn't work as well with sunglasses on though.

graphicguy · September 2019

As most of us know here, the best negotiation tools are your feet.

imidazol97 · September 2019

My second time purchasing a car on my own, I went to the Chev dealer and test drove a Camaro. The salesman offered the list price of the car minus the lowest wholesale price for my Mustang trade. I left the showroom still laughing.

I was insulted that he thought I was that dumb.

imidazol97 · September 2019

Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).

imidazol97 · September 2019

On my Andoid phone I'm getting advertisements in the second spot on every page. It's a large ad double or triple the size of the normal ones. It's for a Chrysler. Then I realized the spread wing emblem was for the
Genesis and it's for the S70. It contains a video.

An intrusive ad because of it's size vertically.

Is anyone else getting this?

imidazol97 · September 2019

@abacomike
What's the status of your new eyes? Have you had the first one done?

tjc78 · September 2019

driver100 said:

stickguy said:
I gave them all the info about the car, and they gave me a number. No different than Carvana really, it is just contingent on it being like you told them it was.
I thought they would want to see the trade-in, so they can walk around it and try to find things that are wrong so they can knock the value down. I found they always took the key and someone took it for a spin.

Having been in sales I think I would feel uneasy about buying a new car online. For one thing, I am going to go and look at the car and test drive it before I buy...maybe even test drive a few cars. I build up a bit of a relationship with the salesman, and he can answer my questions...maybe give me valuable information that helps me make a choice. Then I go to buy and I dump him! And, I don't know about walking out too easily, next dealer is a lot further away and is probably not as good.

I would rather have a good knowledgeable salesperson, work with them on what I think is a fair price having done my homework, and then draw up the deal.

My last purchase I did my test drives and then went to work on negotiations. I gave the salesperson with whom I test drove the car first crack. When they wouldn’t play ball I cast a wider net.

I did the same thing with the park model trailer we just bought. We looked at it and left. The next day when we decided we wanted it I did deal over the phone / text. So much easier.

driver100 · September 2019

imidazol97 said:

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room..

Audi drivers rude! Hope our Audi poster doesn't see that

I saw that automatic lane change device in action, my salesman demonstrated it on the highway. I was surprised at the space it went into. You tell the car you want to change lanes and go left, if the car can fit in a parking space it moves over....I would never do that myself.

I am amazed at what some people consider to be an acceptable lane change. As a general rule - I think the car already in the new lane should not have to use his brakes, if I am changing lanes. There are exceptions, like a ramp coming up, or a string of cars in the left lane who won't let you in.

stickguy · September 2019

Even when I’m dealing with local guy, I prefer to use that approach. Less pressure when you are not in their lair!

snakeweasel · September 2019

imidazol97 said:
On my Andoid phone I'm getting advertisements in the second spot on every page. It's a large ad double or triple the size of the normal ones. It's for a Chrysler. Then I realized the spread wing emblem was for the
Genesis and it's for the S70. It contains a video.

An intrusive ad because of it's size vertically.

Is anyone else getting this?

Not sure, I have been accessing this via my phone of late and I have noticed a large blank space between the last read post and the first unread one. Well more like a big blank space between the posters name and the text. I wonder if the two are related.

driver100 · September 2019

tjc78 said:

driver100 said:

stickguy said:
I gave them all the info about the car, and they gave me a number. No different than Carvana really, it is just contingent on it being like you told them it was.
I thought they would want to see the trade-in, so they can walk around it and try to find things that are wrong so they can knock the value down. I found they always took the key and someone took it for a spin.

Having been in sales I think I would feel uneasy about buying a new car online. For one thing, I am going to go and look at the car and test drive it before I buy...maybe even test drive a few cars. I build up a bit of a relationship with the salesman, and he can answer my questions...maybe give me valuable information that helps me make a choice. Then I go to buy and I dump him! And, I don't know about walking out too easily, next dealer is a lot further away and is probably not as good.

I would rather have a good knowledgeable salesperson, work with them on what I think is a fair price having done my homework, and then draw up the deal.
My last purchase I did my test drives and then went to work on negotiations. I gave the salesperson with whom I test drove the car first crack. When they wouldn’t play ball I cast a wider net.

I did the same thing with the park model trailer we just bought. We looked at it and left. The next day when we decided we wanted it I did deal over the phone / text. So much easier.

I think it would be fair to find out what your salesman comes up with. Search for a better deal on the internet if you want to. If you get a better deal give him a chance to match it. That I can live with.

Or, as you did, get a price, go home, think it over, do any negotiating via internet rather than face to face if you prefer.

driver100 · September 2019

stickguy said:
Even when I’m dealing with local guy, I prefer to use that approach. Less pressure when you are not in their lair!

I get that completely and probably feel the same way. OTOH I don't like to feel intimidated by anyone so I am OK with facing them......if I don't like their attitude or methods I will leave.
One thing I like about doing it from home, less emotion, you can think more, easier to negotiate more or walk away, do it on your terms when you want to.

I think I would start and try with a salesperson, a good salesperson could be an ally. If there is friction go to PLAN B.

abacomike · September 2019

imidazol97 said:
@abacomike
What's the status of your new eyes? Have you had the first one done?

Not until Nov or Dec. Originally scheduled for Thanksgiving week, but trying to get that changed - having difficulty getting someone to drive me there and back and then 2 appointments for post op that same week.

imidazol97 · September 2019

This is what we might hope happens to some of the rude drivers on the road.
I hope this shows up for folks to play. I can' t figure out how to get it out of the clutches of facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/wotdahelldat/videos/292565604695796/?t=10

snakeweasel · September 2019

driver100 said:

imidazol97 said:

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room..
Audi drivers rude! Hope our Audi poster doesn't see that

I saw that automatic lane change device in action, my salesman demonstrated it on the highway. I was surprised at the space it went into. You tell the car you want to change lanes and go left, if the car can fit in a parking space it moves over....I would never do that myself.

I am amazed at what some people consider to be an acceptable lane change. As a general rule - I think the car already in the new lane should not have to use his brakes, if I am changing lanes. There are exceptions, like a ramp coming up, or a string of cars in the left lane who won't let you in.

I agree with the lane change rule, generally I change lanes at such a distance that the car I am moving in front of isn't automatically tailgating me. Sometimes doing that I get someone cutting in around me often almost hitting me and/or the car we are passing. All to get where they are going 5 seconds sooner.

abacomike · September 2019

imidazol97 said:
Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).

When I use my automatic lane changer, the car must be in dynamic cruise control (self steering and all monitors on). I lightly lift or push down on the directional stalk (I do not lock it in place - I have to hold it) and the car will move left or right into the selected lane only if there are 3 car lengths of room in the lane behind and in front of the car. It won't change lanes otherwise.

snakeweasel · September 2019

graphicguy said:
As most of us know here, the best negotiation tools are your feet.

I believe it was Scotty in Star Trek who said that the best negotiation tool was a fully charged phaser bank.

fintail · September 2019

The idea of Audi drivers taking over for BMW drivers in terms of bad behavior has been out there for awhile, I think TopGear (UK) brought it up maybe 10 years ago. It might be true, as Audi could be seen as a more youthful brand, and new flamboyant drivers head to it. Still plenty of BMW stereotypes out there though. It's kind of a cultural universal too, in Germany, there have even been comics on the subject:

fintail · September 2019

You mean the passing lane?

I pass on the right more than I'd like, but that comes with the territory around here.

imidazol97 said:
Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).

tjc78 · September 2019

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:

driver100 said:

stickguy said:
I gave them all the info about the car, and they gave me a number. No different than Carvana really, it is just contingent on it being like you told them it was.
I thought they would want to see the trade-in, so they can walk around it and try to find things that are wrong so they can knock the value down. I found they always took the key and someone took it for a spin.

Having been in sales I think I would feel uneasy about buying a new car online. For one thing, I am going to go and look at the car and test drive it before I buy...maybe even test drive a few cars. I build up a bit of a relationship with the salesman, and he can answer my questions...maybe give me valuable information that helps me make a choice. Then I go to buy and I dump him! And, I don't know about walking out too easily, next dealer is a lot further away and is probably not as good.

I would rather have a good knowledgeable salesperson, work with them on what I think is a fair price having done my homework, and then draw up the deal.
My last purchase I did my test drives and then went to work on negotiations. I gave the salesperson with whom I test drove the car first crack. When they wouldn’t play ball I cast a wider net.

I did the same thing with the park model trailer we just bought. We looked at it and left. The next day when we decided we wanted it I did deal over the phone / text. So much easier.
I think it would be fair to find out what your salesman comes up with. Search for a better deal on the internet if you want to. If you get a better deal give him a chance to match it. That I can live with.

Or, as you did, get a price, go home, think it over, do any negotiating via internet rather than face to face if you prefer.

I negotiate everything I buy for work via email as well. It's just how I feel most comfortable... plus everything is in writing.

abacomike · September 2019

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:

driver100 said:

stickguy said:
I gave them all the info about the car, and they gave me a number. No different than Carvana really, it is just contingent on it being like you told them it was.
I thought they would want to see the trade-in, so they can walk around it and try to find things that are wrong so they can knock the value down. I found they always took the key and someone took it for a spin.

Having been in sales I think I would feel uneasy about buying a new car online. For one thing, I am going to go and look at the car and test drive it before I buy...maybe even test drive a few cars. I build up a bit of a relationship with the salesman, and he can answer my questions...maybe give me valuable information that helps me make a choice. Then I go to buy and I dump him! And, I don't know about walking out too easily, next dealer is a lot further away and is probably not as good.

I would rather have a good knowledgeable salesperson, work with them on what I think is a fair price having done my homework, and then draw up the deal.
My last purchase I did my test drives and then went to work on negotiations. I gave the salesperson with whom I test drove the car first crack. When they wouldn’t play ball I cast a wider net.

I did the same thing with the park model trailer we just bought. We looked at it and left. The next day when we decided we wanted it I did deal over the phone / text. So much easier.
I think it would be fair to find out what your salesman comes up with. Search for a better deal on the internet if you want to. If you get a better deal give him a chance to match it. That I can live with.

Or, as you did, get a price, go home, think it over, do any negotiating via internet rather than face to face if you prefer.

I have never bought a car online - I like to be face-to-face with the manager. I always have my checkbook in my hand and my registration papers when I am ready to buy a car so they know I am not "just looking"! I know within $250 what I am willing to buy the car for because I do the research. I only offer OUT THE DOOR pricing so I eliminate the argument I would have over dealer fees, I refuse to pay them - so the dealer has to play around with the figures to eliminate their fees. The buyers order will show the fees pre-printed on the form which is required by FL law, but the bottom line number is the agreed OTD price.

Dealing online for a new car takes the fun out of buying a new car - I enjoy the process because I control the process. But if you don't enjoy the process, you can buy online. Remember I was a new cat salesman and manager.

abacomike · September 2019

Just moved the eye surgery to December 9th. That way I have a friend who can drive me.

tjc78 · September 2019

You can certainly control the process via email/phone

I also deal like you OTD pricing or in case of a lease all in numbers with set OOP at signing

When I did the deal on the trailer they started talking about setup fees, etc. I said let’s simplify this .. I’ll pay X all in delivered and setup.

Went quickly after that.

abacomike · September 2019

snakeweasel said:

graphicguy said:
As most of us know here, the best negotiation tools are your feet.
I believe it was Scotty in Star Trek who said that the best negotiation tool was a fully charged phaser bank.

No question about it, snake. If you purchase/lease a car like I do - face-to-face - you must enter the dealership "loaded" with lots of research and information about money factors, invoices, incentives, trade-in values, etc. Today, there is absolutely no reason a buyer should enter a showroom at a dealership without first-hand knowledge of pricing and values. With online sites like Edmunds, TruCar, etc., you can acquire all the information you need.

Just talking about this stuff is getting me all excited again. I haven't earnetly been in negotiations for a car for myself in almost 2 years. Buying that car for my friend (the E450) got me so excited - and it's tough to get all exceited and everything at 75 years of age (birthday coming up in 2 weeks). Love the stimulation!!!!

fintail · September 2019

From what I hear, new cats are a lot easier to sell than old ones.

I got ghosted twice emailing about cars on my last deal, so I did most of it in person.

abacomike said:

Dealing online for a new car takes the fun out of buying a new car - I enjoy the process because I control the process. But if you don't enjoy the process, you can buy online. Remember I was a new cat salesman and manager.

andres3 · September 2019

sda said:
When I thought I had finalized the purchase of the Q5 I discovered it only had one key. Knowing getting another key could be expensive I made getting a second key part of the deal. They declined and I walked. As I was driving home, about 15 minutes later I get a call they will replace the key. The key would have cost $500 had I been forced to get it retail.

You should have made them sweat for 48 hours after they wasted 15 minutes of your time (at least).

Easier said then done though, as you want the Q5!

jmonroe1 · September 2019

driver100 said:

stickguy said:
You the man Mike!
+1 I am impressed. When I am ready buy come up and go with me Mike.

Anyone who plays tennis and pickle ball as much as you do should have at least better than average speed and shouldn't need someone else to help him get out of the showroom. In fact, from what @Mike has said about some of his ailments, he'd probably just slow you down.

jmonroe

driver100 · September 2019

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

stickguy said:
You the man Mike!
+1 I am impressed. When I am ready buy come up and go with me Mike.
Anyone who plays tennis and pickle ball as much as you do should have at least better than average speed and shouldn't need someone else to help him get out of the showroom. In fact, from what @Mike has said about some of his ailments, he'd probably just slow you down.

jmonroe

I am a good runner....I never used to be. I guess I saved myself by not doing it during my early years. In fact, in high school we had to run a huge figure 8 across the football field......on foggy days I got to the middle and waited then went back after 10 laps as if I was running the whole time.

Not an avid athlete, but good management material!

No, I need Mikes help negotiating....the running away I am good at.

jmonroe1 · September 2019

snakeweasel said:

ab348 said:

snakeweasel said:
well picked up the 428 today. Drove it home and became a disgrace to BMW drivers everywhere, I used my turn signals.

Delivery went well, in and out maybe 90 minutes. Given a quick rundown on basic stuff on the car. Signed some paperwork with the finance dude and off we went. Just got to go back in a few weeks to meet with someone to give us more detailed instructions on operations.
Did they make you watch the instructional video that is mandatory for new BMW owners?

:laughing:

(Image edited slightly to satisfy community guidelines)
I was going to post that saying it was a picture of me taking delivery.

Please don't tell us you wore a green shirt with blue pants when you took delivery! A real BMW owner wears a red shirt and it's registered. Get with it man. :@

jmonroe

andres3 · September 2019

abacomike said:

imidazol97 said:
Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).
When I use my automatic lane changer, the car must be in dynamic cruise control (self steering and all monitors on). I lightly lift or push down on the directional stalk (I do not lock it in place - I have to hold it) and the car will move left or right into the selected lane only if there are 3 car lengths of room in the lane behind and in front of the car. It won't change lanes otherwise.

That"s a terrible design. Depending on the speed deltas, 3 car lengths may be inadequate, and if I was on Patrol for the State, I'd issue an "unsafe lane change" violation. These nannies need to take better account of speed differentials. Based on the "blind spot monitors" from Audi, I would say they are not taking into account speeds.

Lastly, I hated... i mean HATED the lane guidance overtake on the steering wheel of the A7. SCARY! It works, sort of, but I don't like how much horsepower it had on the steering wheel. I thought it would be light inputs, but it felt like someone strong was fighting me on the steering.

abacomike · September 2019

andres3 said:

abacomike said:

imidazol97 said:
Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).
When I use my automatic lane changer, the car must be in dynamic cruise control (self steering and all monitors on). I lightly lift or push down on the directional stalk (I do not lock it in place - I have to hold it) and the car will move left or right into the selected lane only if there are 3 car lengths of room in the lane behind and in front of the car. It won't change lanes otherwise.
That"s a terrible design. Depending on the speed deltas, 3 car lengths may be inadequate, and if I was on Patrol for the State, I'd issue an "unsafe lane change" violation. These nannies need to take better account of speed differentials. Based on the "blind spot monitors" from Audi, I would say they are not taking into account speeds.

Lastly, I hated... i mean HATED the lane guidance overtake on the steering wheel of the A7. SCARY! It works, sort of, but I don't like how much horsepower it had on the steering wheel. I thought it would be light inputs, but it felt like someone strong was fighting me on the steering.

Thank God you ARE NOT on patrol for the State! Look, Andres, you are entitled to an opinion about anything your heart desires to "opine" on, but until you have firsthand knowledge and experience driving my car using my car's technology, I'll stick with my opinion regarding my car and you can stick with you opinion about your car and experiences.

Enough said? Thanks for your opinion about my car and its technology!

stickguy · September 2019

Funny video. Dart guy should have invested in better bolts to hold the rear end together.

stickguy · September 2019

Driver, all salesmen are your enemy, with the goal of separating you from as much money as possible and getting biggest commission.

The good ones just make you think they are your friend!

andres3 · September 2019

abacomike said:

andres3 said:

abacomike said:

imidazol97 said:
Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).
When I use my automatic lane changer, the car must be in dynamic cruise control (self steering and all monitors on). I lightly lift or push down on the directional stalk (I do not lock it in place - I have to hold it) and the car will move left or right into the selected lane only if there are 3 car lengths of room in the lane behind and in front of the car. It won't change lanes otherwise.
That"s a terrible design. Depending on the speed deltas, 3 car lengths may be inadequate, and if I was on Patrol for the State, I'd issue an "unsafe lane change" violation. These nannies need to take better account of speed differentials. Based on the "blind spot monitors" from Audi, I would say they are not taking into account speeds.

Lastly, I hated... i mean HATED the lane guidance overtake on the steering wheel of the A7. SCARY! It works, sort of, but I don't like how much horsepower it had on the steering wheel. I thought it would be light inputs, but it felt like someone strong was fighting me on the steering.
Thank God you ARE NOT on patrol for the State! Look, Andres, you are entitled to an opinion about anything your heart desires to "opine" on, but until you have firsthand knowledge and experience driving my car using my car's technology, I'll stick with my opinion regarding my car and you can stick with you opinion about your car and experiences.

Enough said? Thanks for your opinion about my car and its technology!

You didn't really offer an opinion about your car and its technology regarding lane change "assistance" features. I'd say you offered a "statement" on how it works. I merely meant, if that's how it works, that's not good.

You may have not encountered a problem with it yet, but problems take time and opportunity. People should be wary of these nannies increasing accidents is what I'm saying.

I also want to point out that it wasn't just an attack on MB. I was fair and balanced in giving a scathing review of lane-assist on the Audi A7 loaner I had recently. However, in the Audi, it was an assist to keep you within the lane lines, not for changing lanes.

andres3 · September 2019

fintail said:
You mean the passing lane?

I pass on the right more than I'd like, but that comes with the territory around here.

imidazol97 said:
Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).

That is the problem in a nutshell isn't it? Those that define the passing lane as some arbitrary and subjective "fast/high" speed lane, rather than what it is, which is a passing lane, a lane where you are supposed to be passing people. DUH! DOH!

While "fast/slow/high" speeds are subjective and arbitrary, slower and faster is not. It is relative and absolute. That's why the signage generally says either "Keep Right EXCEPT to Pass!" or "Slower Traffic Keep Right."

You don't get to redefine "slower." If someone else is faster, you are slower. If someone else is slower, you are faster. I love it.

snakeweasel · September 2019

andres3 said:

sda said:
When I thought I had finalized the purchase of the Q5 I discovered it only had one key. Knowing getting another key could be expensive I made getting a second key part of the deal. They declined and I walked. As I was driving home, about 15 minutes later I get a call they will replace the key. The key would have cost $500 had I been forced to get it retail.
You should have made them sweat for 48 hours after they wasted 15 minutes of your time (at least).

Easier said then done though, as you want the Q5!

The problem with letting them sweat is that as soon as he walked they were under no obligation to hold the car for him. In 48 hours it could be sold.

snakeweasel · September 2019

andres3 said:

fintail said:
You mean the passing lane?

I pass on the right more than I'd like, but that comes with the territory around here.

imidazol97 said:
Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).

That is the problem in a nutshell isn't it? Those that define the passing lane as some arbitrary and subjective "fast/high" speed lane, rather than what it is, which is a passing lane, a lane where you are supposed to be passing people. DUH! DOH!

While "fast/slow/high" speeds are subjective and arbitrary, slower and faster is not. It is relative and absolute. That's why the signage generally says either "Keep Right EXCEPT to Pass!" or "Slower Traffic Keep Right."

You don't get to redefine "slower." If someone else is faster, you are slower. If someone else is slower, you are faster. I love it.

If someone else is faster than it does not mean that I am slower. The law defines "slower" as under the normal flow of traffic. If the normal flow of traffic is 70 and I am doing 75 and you are doing 80 I may be slower than you but I am not defined by the law so "slower" as in "slower traffic keep right".

andres3 · September 2019

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

fintail said:
You mean the passing lane?

I pass on the right more than I'd like, but that comes with the territory around here.

imidazol97 said:
Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).

That is the problem in a nutshell isn't it? Those that define the passing lane as some arbitrary and subjective "fast/high" speed lane, rather than what it is, which is a passing lane, a lane where you are supposed to be passing people. DUH! DOH!

While "fast/slow/high" speeds are subjective and arbitrary, slower and faster is not. It is relative and absolute. That's why the signage generally says either "Keep Right EXCEPT to Pass!" or "Slower Traffic Keep Right."

You don't get to redefine "slower." If someone else is faster, you are slower. If someone else is slower, you are faster. I love it.
If someone else is faster than it does not mean that I am slower. The law defines "slower" as under the normal flow of traffic. If the normal flow of traffic is 70 and I am doing 75 and you are doing 80 I may be slower than you but I am not defined by the law so "slower" as in "slower traffic keep right".

100% INCORRECT as usual.

You have to assume, in your scenario that the flow of traffic is 70 MPH. What if there are only 2 cars involved? The slowest, and the faster. The law becomes crystal clear then. The law doesn't want people doing complex calculations that you wish to put into the law, to be performed by a driver going down the road.

Do you honestly expect a driver to do this kind of complex math to figure out the normal flow ? A+B+C+D+E+F+G+H+I+J = 10(X) X being the "normal" flow of traffic? It's much simpler, easier, and sensible to just go by the honest interpretation of what the signage says, in plain English, rather than interject silly definitions. Estimations of speed would be inaccurate by the average person, but anyone that isn't blind knows what faster/slower is at a glance in a split second.

snakeweasel · September 2019

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

fintail said:
You mean the passing lane?

I pass on the right more than I'd like, but that comes with the territory around here.

imidazol97 said:
Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).

That is the problem in a nutshell isn't it? Those that define the passing lane as some arbitrary and subjective "fast/high" speed lane, rather than what it is, which is a passing lane, a lane where you are supposed to be passing people. DUH! DOH!

While "fast/slow/high" speeds are subjective and arbitrary, slower and faster is not. It is relative and absolute. That's why the signage generally says either "Keep Right EXCEPT to Pass!" or "Slower Traffic Keep Right."

You don't get to redefine "slower." If someone else is faster, you are slower. If someone else is slower, you are faster. I love it.
If someone else is faster than it does not mean that I am slower. The law defines "slower" as under the normal flow of traffic. If the normal flow of traffic is 70 and I am doing 75 and you are doing 80 I may be slower than you but I am not defined by the law so "slower" as in "slower traffic keep right".
100% INCORRECT as usual.

You have to assume, in your scenario that the flow of traffic is 70 MPH. What if there are only 2 cars involved? The slowest, and the faster. The law becomes crystal clear then. The law doesn't want people doing complex calculations that you wish to put into the law, to be performed by a driver going down the road.

Do you honestly expect a driver to do this kind of complex math to figure out the normal flow ? A+B+C+D+E+F+G+H+I+J = 10(X) X being the "normal" flow of traffic? It's much simpler, easier, and sensible to just go by the honest interpretation of what the signage says, in plain English, rather than interject silly definitions. Estimations of speed would be inaccurate by the average person, but anyone that isn't blind knows what faster/slower is at a glance in a split second.

Actually I am correct in this manner as there is rarely just two cars on multi lane roads. But it's pretty simple, if more cars pass you than you're passing you are slower traffic. The law defines slower traffic as that which is going slower than the normal flow of traffic. Simple isn't it.

Again just because someone is going slower than you doesnt mean they are the slower traffic that needs to stay right.

Now if you live in a state that has a keep right except to pass (you don't BTW) then it's a different story.

andres3 · September 2019

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

fintail said:
You mean the passing lane?

I pass on the right more than I'd like, but that comes with the territory around here.

imidazol97 said:
Fifteen years ago the BMW drivers were obnoxious in their driving attitudes in this area. That was a driver's car and was quick. A lot of newbies were buying them and impressing themselves with their purchase. They tailgated, they cut in, they zoomed.

But the purchasers changed over the years and they are more typical drivers for this area.

And the Audi drivers took over the rude, inconsiderate spot--at least some of them did.

Mercedes drivers have generally been more courteous. I did have an S500 driver cut over between me and a car in front in a rather short spot on the interstate. I think from what Mike has said the car probably had nannies that told him he had room OR it was being self driven at the time and the car decided there was room. But typically MB drivers don't tailgate if you're going slower than they want in the traffic. They will take the opportunity to pass or change lanes and get around to go on their way instead of trying to force the driver ahead to change lanes (be aware I'm always going 5 over the limit if traffic allows and I'm in a high speed lane.).

That is the problem in a nutshell isn't it? Those that define the passing lane as some arbitrary and subjective "fast/high" speed lane, rather than what it is, which is a passing lane, a lane where you are supposed to be passing people. DUH! DOH!

While "fast/slow/high" speeds are subjective and arbitrary, slower and faster is not. It is relative and absolute. That's why the signage generally says either "Keep Right EXCEPT to Pass!" or "Slower Traffic Keep Right."

You don't get to redefine "slower." If someone else is faster, you are slower. If someone else is slower, you are faster. I love it.
If someone else is faster than it does not mean that I am slower. The law defines "slower" as under the normal flow of traffic. If the normal flow of traffic is 70 and I am doing 75 and you are doing 80 I may be slower than you but I am not defined by the law so "slower" as in "slower traffic keep right".
100% INCORRECT as usual.

You have to assume, in your scenario that the flow of traffic is 70 MPH. What if there are only 2 cars involved? The slowest, and the faster. The law becomes crystal clear then. The law doesn't want people doing complex calculations that you wish to put into the law, to be performed by a driver going down the road.

Do you honestly expect a driver to do this kind of complex math to figure out the normal flow ? A+B+C+D+E+F+G+H+I+J = 10(X) X being the "normal" flow of traffic? It's much simpler, easier, and sensible to just go by the honest interpretation of what the signage says, in plain English, rather than interject silly definitions. Estimations of speed would be inaccurate by the average person, but anyone that isn't blind knows what faster/slower is at a glance in a split second.
Actually I am correct in this manner as there is rarely just two cars on multi lane roads. But it's pretty simple, if more cars pass you than you're passing you are slower traffic. The law defines slower traffic as that which is going slower than the normal flow of traffic. Simple isn't it.

Again just because someone is going slower than you doesnt mean they are the slower traffic that needs to stay right.

Now if you live in a state that has a keep right except to pass (you don't BTW) then it's a different story.

In your ridiculous scenario, in CA, you might have to count 50 cars, and determine if your in the bottom 26 or top 24. Absurd, LOL.

The average USA driver can't even be relied upon to count their fingers.

tjc78 · September 2019

cdnpinhead · September 2019

The only thing better would be if Driver got involved.

ab348 · September 2019

And once again the lack of a "Mute User" function becomes more acute.

driver100 · September 2019

cdnpinhead said:
The only thing better would be if Driver got involved.

No, not even I am going to attempt that one!

driver100 · September 2019

stickguy said:
Driver, all salesmen are your enemy, with the goal of separating you from as much money as possible and getting biggest commission.

The good ones just make you think they are your friend!

That is the case with most salespeople. I think a really good professional sales person will know most people are pretty much informed these days....if you get a salesperson who seems pretty trustworthy I think they can be more of a help than a hindrance. They may help you get options or programs you didn't know about, may have a solution to a problem you are having. My guy was very trustworthy, offered to come to the house to set up Homelink and update the GPS.

When we got the 2013 A4, the salesman came in at a higher amount than I wanted. I told him what I expected to pay.......and he gave in right away, said they were in a higher income area, dealing with business people who were pretty savvy, and don't mess around. Maybe a KIA dealership would be different. Come to think of it, the dealer where we took my brothers Hyundai back to I wouldn't trust one bit........nothing they said was credible.

Long and short, if the salesman seems good and honest...I prefer dealing with a real person.

stickguy · September 2019

Could be. But I think you over estimate how informed most buyers are.

driver100 · September 2019

But, if the buyer isn't informed, can they do better on the internet?

stickguy · September 2019

On some sites, probably.

28firefighter · September 2019

The salesperson's job is to (1) sell a car, and (2) for as much money as their manager tells them to try to sell it for. Traditionally the hope was that if they did their job matching you with a car and building value in the product, it was fairly easy to do that in a way that made sure the customer felt like they "won" even when the house won, too. The savvy buyer had access to dealer information like invoice pricing and such, which meant every so often a dealer was letting a car go for cost but probably made most of it up elsewhere. It used to be that an amazing deal was a car that you bought for dealer invoice.

Today, the internet as an educational resource has leveled the playing field somewhat. It is not difficult on new cars to see what MSRP, Invoice, and incentives are available on a particular car and it is easy to get pre-approved for financing outside the dealer. Now the race isn't to move a car for as close to MSRP as possible, it is a race to keep it at or above invoice and hope to make your money profit based on financing, F&I products, and volume, along with the oblivious buyer who knows nothing and walks in off the lot. Savvy buyers today also understand that it is possible to go back of invoice before incentives and in some cases, considerably, based upon how a dealer's incentive structure is setup and how to capitalize on it. The information isn't public, it is hard to fully grasp, and thanks to the manufacturers is an ever moving target. Today, an amazing deal is like what you see in leasehackr - cars selling well back of invoice before incentives in many cases.

I respect every single sales person I encounter - they are trying to eek out a living and I am not making them or their bosses anything more than a "mini" - usually $150. At this point most of their deal's are minis. I minimize the amount of their time I take up, I only reach out if I'm ready to buy, and I do test drives in the middle of the week when things are quiet. My experience is most are pretty honest, younger folks, who are finding their way - very few are the sleazy ones you read about everywhere - that is unless you walk into a CJDR or Kia dealer...

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