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Comments
-mike
I think you're giving the black box a little too much credit. I don't see how it will lead to better driver training. That's wishful thinking.
For example, we all know driving in slippery conditions increases the chances of a collision, have for years, but they don't test those skills when you get a license. Bob Bondurant does have a wet skidpad, so it can be done.
The data itself could be useful - but again I'll argue that there are more cost effective ways to obtain that data. If black boxes were free and consumer protections were in place, fine, but neither is true.
I'll keep going back to that prime point, though, is it the most cost effective way to obtain accurate and useful collision data? No.
-juice
Some times I do think like a bean counter, in fact my Master's is in MIS but fell under the business school, so yes I took all the bean counting classes. Though in my defense I usually count the beans to ensure that the money is spent on the right things.
For example, when Bob asks for a bigger-than-Forester truck, he's dreaming about future models, while I'm thinking "OK, that's 2 billion or more of R&D funds taken away from powertrain development". So I look at what alternatives we could get with those same funds, and would prioritize a 2.5l turbo, the low range fitted to US-spec vehicles, etc. The amount of money is finite.
I respect your opinion (and Bob's), but I often find myself challenging people to come up with better and yes, more efficient, solutions than what they propose at first.
On the other hand, you may know a lot more about it than I do. I guessed a black box would cost $300, but I could be way off base. If so, please step in. If it were $30 per car, I'd say do it, just lobby to pass a little consumer protection legislation first.
-juice
-mike
Data can be, and often is, misinterpreted. Data is nothing without context, and often times someone who knows that and has their own agenda can make the data prove their point, in their context.
-Colin
-juice
I'm a dreamer, I'll admit. (RIGHT BRAIN RULES!) However, nothing ever gets done if you don't dream...
Bob
:')
So I requested brochures of all the various Subarus sold in the UK. They came in the mail today! I thought for sure that they wouldn't send them to someone from another country, half way around the globe, no less.
Anybody who visits London should visit this dealer. You'll enjoy the experience I'm sure.
Bob
* full size truck/pickup/SUV line
* Class IV towing
* H8, H8 turbo optional
* low range
* 8 seater
But then they told you they had a development budget of exactly $100 million. Would you still want it? That'd be cutting a lot of corners...
-juice
-mike
Patti
I'm just saying if you don't think outside the box, and challenge existing paradigms, you end up with boring stuff. At some point Subaru will have larger budgets, and will be able to afford to venture into "unthinkable" areas.
Remember, Honda and Toyota were once smaller than Subaru is today, and look at the markets their in today. Also, a lot of people think Porsche is nuts for building an SUV. They've committed a lot money to prove those naysayers wrong...
Bob
If you cut corners you'll have subpar quality, reliability issues, poor crash test results, and horrible NVH. In other words, it wouldn't be a Subie, even with the H8 and AWD.
By the way, I'm with the camp that says a Porsche SUV is sacreligious! The world may come to an end when the first one is sold! This is Armageddon, folks, and I'm not just talking about a bad movie! The fat lady will sing!
Hey, those guys with the white lab coats are back, what do they want this time? What's that stun-gun for? ZAP!
Ahm, dis is der Porsche bean counter, Mr. juice haz been sent bahk to graduate skool to re-do the chaptah on "corporate profits". Pleez, as you ver...
Ed
-mike
Ha Ha!
John
Ken
Justy - "MotorWeek" TV-Driver's Choice Award, "Best Bargain Car"
Legacy - Federation International de l'Automobile World Land Speed Endurance Record
1989
Legacy sets two world and 13 international endurance and speed records
1990
Legacy - Home Mechanix "Easy Maintenance Car of the Year"
1991
Subaru SVX - Popular Science "Best of What's New"
Subaru SVX - Automotive Industries "Car of the Year: Annual Engineering Award"
1992
Subaru SVX - Automobile Magazine "1992 All Stars"
1995
Outback - Popular Science Magazine "Best of What's New"
1996
Impreza - J. D. Powers & Associates "Best Compact Car"
Outback - MotorWeek TV "Driver's Choice Award"
1997
Forester - Consumers Digest Magazine "Best Buy"
Forester - AAA 1998 Top Car Awards Outback - Motorweek TV "Driver's Choice Award"
1998
Forester - New England Motor Press Assn. "Best in Class"
Legacy - Kiplinger's Magazine "Best New Car"
Forester - Consumers Digest "Best Buy"
2000
Legacy top performer in IIHS crash tests
Outback takes First Place, Seat of the Pants Class, 2000 Alcan Rally
Outback - Northwest Automotive Press Assn. "Best in Class"
Forester - Consumers Digest "Best Buy" third consecutive year
2001
The 2002 Impreza WRX voted “Most Fun to Drive” by Auto Week Magazine.
Sport Compact Car Magazine names the Impreza WRX one of the Eight Great Rides of 2001.
Subaru of America, Inc. receives the “Consumers Voice Award” from Planetfeeback.com.
-Dave
you know what's odd?
in 2000 a Subaru Impreza 2.5RS WON the Alcon 5000 outright! Paul Eklund of www.getprimitive.com was one of the drivers.
But since they beat the factory Outback H6 effort, of course the Outback gets the footnote in (subaru's own) history.
-Colin
On October 30, 1996, the Forester won the renowned Hulman Trophy* for setting a new world record with an average speed of 180.082 km/h in the 24-hour challenge at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
http://www.fhi.co.jp/subaru/bode27.htm
As to whether the Porsche SUV will be a success; I wouldn't bet against it... Their product planners know what they're doing. And, judging by their teaser ads, I suspect it will be more than capable off-road. In fact, I'm sure Porsche will off-road race it, just to prove its capabilities.
Bob
-mike
• Outback H-6 has the same wood/leather steering wheel as ours, but with the MOMO logo in the center, like the WRX.
• Outback H-6 has a thin chrome ring around the instruments. It looks real classy.
• Outback H-6 has a different front bumper from ours.
• Outback H-6 still has the old pop-out-of-the-dash cupholder.
• Outback H-6 has blackwall tires. Why can't we get those here?
• Outback H-6 has a self-leveling rear suspension.
• Outback H-6 has 215/60x16 tires.
• Outback H-6 has a full-size spare tire.
• Legacy 2.5 GX has 205/50x16 tires (not 55 section).
• Legacy 2.5 GX has wheels that look like the ones found on our Outback Sport. They look great!
• Forester has headlight washers.
• Forester turbo has a blacked out mesh grille, and it looks great!
• Forester (not turbo) has a dual-range 5-speed tranny (we already knew that).
• Forester turbo has chrome rims around the instruments, like the H-6 Outback.
• Forester has two fold-down, seat-mounted, front armrests.
• Forester has self-leveling rear suspension.
• Forester, Impreza (except WRX), and Legacy have hill-holder clutches.
• WRX has 17" tires
Marketing decision I bet. But what's so bad with "1st place goes to the RS and Outback takes second"?
I thought the H6 debut in 2001?
Oh wait, we get MY2001 in 2000...[brain fart]
-Dave
The arguments have been thought provoking and compelling. And just maybe I am softening my stand against the 'box' a bit, but not yet ready to give in. It is fundamentally a decent idea, but I cannot help but see the 'dark side' of potential abuse. One mile over the limit is breaking the law, and that could be the 'wiggle room' for your insurance company to invalidate your coverage.
A couple of thoughts on some constitutional issues raised during the weekend. Forgive me if I don't have this exact, for it has been a long time since school. Where is a copy of that old parchment when you need it???
Our forefathers were very insightful about the need for governmental expansion, and included something known as the 'elastic clause'. Championed by the Federalists, it allows the offices of government to expand to accommodate technological advances and other challenges. Without it, constitutional amendments would be needed to create departments like NTSB, NHTSC, EPA, DOT, etc. State constitutions have similar provisions. And hence, driving became a privilege granted by our government. Essentially an usurpation of power(?). After all, before 1905 (or so), you didn't need govt approval to pilot your horse & buggy, or that early motorized beast?
But arguing the other side was Jefferson and the Republican-Democrats. In the name of non-intrusive govt, they inserted a clause saying (paraphrased) that any power not specifically granted to the govt remained the province of the populace. That provides the protection of day-to-day personal mobility. So while the govt regulates the equipment on your automobile and 'how' you drive, 'where' you go should remain personal and private. I would think then that using your car to track your whereabouts without a court order should be a protected right of privacy.
But I am also willing to bet that I am a far better engineer than a constitutional lawyer!! Go ahead - throw some stones thru this argument... ;-)
Steve
Patti
I think Subaru needs to counter that with 4 kids getting into the WRX with Auto-x Helmets and asking "where are we going?" with an answer of "the track or racing school" or something along those lines!
-mike
Patti
Patti
-mike
The camera comes in on what is obviously a lawyer's office. The lawyer is in his chair, looking over the desk at a divorcing couple in the process of dividing the family goods. The male of the couple says, "I'd want you to have the oriental rug, sweetheart. It always meant so much to you." She sniffs with appreciation and tells him to be sure to take the LazyBoy, the TV and its remote.
They go on tenderly splitting up their possessions until one of them mentions the Outback. "You'll get the Outback over my dead body," she says through gritted teeth. He challenges her, she retorts and as the camera pulls back the lawyer's office erupts in a screaming fight as both of them insist that all they want from the marriage is custody of the Outback.
2nd, I spent 2 and a half hours last night as part of an automobile focus group. I've spent my entire morning web allocation sifting through the posts all you jobless slackers cranked out yesterday (j/k :-)) ) so I don't have time to go into the details right now, but hear this and hear it well: the SUV is dead. Detroit will try and push the niche as hard as possible to squeeze as much profit out of it as possible, especially since GM has spent no money on cars now for a while; but everyone else is grabbing thier hats and heading for the door. I don't know which manufacturer this firm was working for, but the purpose of the group was to help plan a new model. The message they got was loud and clear from our group- crossover, baby. Afterward, the moderator (a career car-market researcher) told me, "SUVs are done."
To that end, I think the Cayenne is more in the sportwagon vein than the truck vein.
The ad reminded me of a story that goes something like, "a friend bought a new Norton bike with all the money he had. He pushed it back home, pushed it around the neighborhood,... did that till the next paycheck came around"
So when the commercial when "Where are we going?!? Duh!" I went, hehehe they got no money for gas
-Dave
-mike
As to it's of road capability, my understanding is that it "will" have a low range, so that suggests more than meager off-road capability to me.
Loosh, the people in the market study you attended will most likely never consider a Porsche (of any kind), so yes, for the "mainstream," crossovers appear to be the future. Porsche, like Land Rover, has never been a mainstream brand. There will always be a market for a true off-roader, small though it may be. Despite what everyone says here, I'm sure Porsche will sell every Cayenne they make.
Bob
-------
3 kids in a Civic, the fourth jumps in and asks "Where are we going?".
"Anywhere! Lets go!" and the kids are ready to pull out of their parking spot when the driver looks into his side mirror and sees the distinctive WRX headlights coming down the road. With turbo at full boost, the WRX whizzes by! All four kids stare in silence at the tailights of the WRX with their mouths hanging open.
"Where are we going? Duh!" The kids somberly go back to their hanging out in the Civic.
Zoom up to the WRX. See four kids with huge grins on their faces inside.
Pan out. Ending shot with the WRX going down twisites with the captions "The Beauty of AWD".
------
So, Patti, when do I start my job as Marcom director for SOA?
Ken
Bob, take a look at the Imprezas in your UK brochure. Even the base Impreza wagons (1.6 & 2.0) have a lo-range. :-D
-Dennis
-Colin
-mike
I checked the SOJ website and the models with lo-range have the same AWD system as those without.
Ken