Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

grahampeters · January 2001

G'day

I would express extreme caution over fitting a bull bar to a vehicle, particularly when used in an urban environment.

Bull bars were invented in Australia to protect vehicles from impact damage by animals, especially kangaroos which have a habit of leaping up unexpectedly in front of you when driving at night. In rural areas where there are multitudes of kangaroos (and sheep), there is some sense to protecting yourself against them.

The general design intent of a bull bar is to kill the animal rather than allow it to smash against the wind screen.

Kangaroos are about the same height and weight as a grown human and it probably should come as no surprise that bull bars are also extremely effective at killing humans, particularly children.

Car design is partially directed at protecting the occupants of the vehicle and partially protecting other road users. Bonnet and front bumper design is directed at both providing a progressively deformable barrier and directing any soft thrown object in a controlled fashion, typically allowing a hit body to roll up and over the bonnet area.

Fitting a bull bar prevents the car's designed protection from operating correctly to protect pedestrians. The consequence of this is that in a collision with a pedestrian (particularly children) the chances of death or maiming are dramatically increased.

I would ask that you think hard about the load on your conscience when you hit a child before fitting a bull bar. I know that I would find it unconscionable.

Not so Cheers

Graham

grahampeters · January 2001

G,day

I am also fairly sure that we have a hydraulic clutch on Australian spec cars. If my son ever climbs down from my lap (we are playing Putt-Putt Goes to the Circus) I will go and check.

Cheers

Graham

rsholland · January 2001

Excellent point! I hadn't thought about that aspect, but you're absolutely right.

Bob

rsholland · January 2001

My guess is that they disappeared from the North American market because of costs, and thatto most Americansit probably seemed like a rather strange feature. Personally, I think it's a terrific feature that should never have been deleted from our market.

Bob

ateixeira · January 2001

Maybe I'm just a great driver, but I haven't hit a whole lot of pedestrians lately. I try, but they're too quick!

)

Just kidding, and point well taken.

-juice

kens · January 2001

The Hillholder clutch has been one mystery to me. I remember reading a response from SOA that the Hillholder was removed because of the hydraulic clutches needed to support the 2.5L engines. Does this make sense to anyone?

Ken

ateixeira · January 2001

Well, sort of. The 2.5l engine has more torque, so it requires a beefier clutch. Let's say that's why they moved to a hydraulic one.

But doesn't the Outback in other markets have that 2.5l? What clutch do they use?

-juice

paisan · January 2001

Well 90% of the suv's in the US have some kind of bars on the front, and where I live in NYC, people who parallel park, tend to bump and grind themselves into the parking spots. Now must cars nowadays with painted front bumpers cost close to $700 to get repainted. That is the main reason I got mine, and sure enough the first time I parked in Manhattan, someone backed right into my bull bar! I also drive in the country often and i'd rather a deer hit that than my front end. As juice said, I haven't hit any pedestrians lately!

The reason I had to go to Australia to get the bull bar was because it was a simple bar that came up from the frame to protect the bumper. All the other bars I could find stateside were these monster contraptions that were right against the body of the car (so if they get hit, they will immediately do damage to the car)

Good points though!

-mike

rsholland · January 2001

Just checked the Subaru New Zealand site, and the 2.5 Outback uses a hill-holder-clutch. So, it's not the engine size/power that's in question.

Bob

lucien2 · January 2001

the biggest news between your car and the upcoming, all new OBS is that the new car will get the 2.5 liter (litre? leader!) engine. Well, and the buggy new lights, 'natch.

But the 2.5 will definitely give the car more squirt than you are enjoying now.

grahampeters · January 2001

G'day
I just peered carefully under the bonnet and the clutch on my Australian spec 99 OB is definitely hydraulic and the engine is definitely 2.5litre. Guess we just put it down to saving money in the US. Now as to how the thing works, I have not a clue! However it is extremly effective and it is most disconcerting when you go to a more conventional vehicle.

By the way, in Australia most learners learn in a manual. If you learn in an auto your license is endorsed so you can not drive a manual. Autos are still far more popular but most people can drive either.

Cheers

Graham

subaru_team · January 2001

Good Morning. We've been talking to FHI about bringing the Hill Holder back in our vehicles. I think (my opinion) is that they saw low value in it because the feeling, at the time, was that a manual tranny wasn't as attractive in the U. S. Market. From what I hear, FHI is very receptive to our comments requesting that they bring it back. Stay tuned!

Patti

ateixeira · January 2001

Graham - that's the way licensing should be.

It's way, way too easy to get a license in MD. Just drive like you're driving Miss Daisy and you'll pass.

-juice

hondafriek · January 2001

Same thing in Ireland and the UK. If you take a test in an automatic thats all you are licenced to drive. The test here in Canada is also a joke, and I think Ottawa drivers are about the second worst drivers I have encountered, Quebec drivers being the absolute worst.

Cheers Pat.

Karen_S · January 2001

p0926 Jan 24, 2001 10:43am

I know...this was a very nice feature on the old boards. The simple fact is that it put an incredible strain on the servers when several hundred people were simultaneously clicking on see all throughout the old TH. That was the reason why hosts had to continuously create Part 2-3-4-5-6 etc., for popular discussions in an attempt to avoid server chaos.

If you would like to offer more comments about this, please do so in New Software! Your Questions Answered....

Thanks!

KarenS
Owner's Club host

kens · January 2001

Aha! So the hydraulic clutch explanation isn't right after all. I thought it didn't make sense when other markets had the Hill Holder while using a hydraulic clutch.

Patti -- I think the Hill Holder would be a great differentiating feature for Subaru. As I understand, Subaru was only making 10% of their vehicles in manuals. Is this still true? What about the near future?

Ken

peterson10 · January 2001

Patti,
Bring it back! Yeah, the clutch in my 2000 OB is smoother than the one in my 92L, but something is definitely missing, and we both know what it is! Whether or not I NEED it is beyond the point (having been a loyal MT owner since 19'75 I instinctively use the handbrake method for starting on hills) there is just something about having that hill-holder (the spirit of Studebacker?) which transcends mere practicality. Cup-holders are a dime a dozen, but the hill-holder is a rare gem.

williams23 · January 2001

Hi - new Subaru owner - LL Bean Outback - absolutely love it so far.

Quick question(s) - scrolled through tons of posts but didn't see anything on this - hope it's the right place to post.

The LL Bean comes w/ the security system standard. I already misplaced the little brochure on the remote entry. I have two questions:

1) How do you make the horn armed/disarmed signal silent? It seems far too loud.

2) Is there any (easy) way to disarm the security system so that you can use the remote entry as, well, just that?

Thanks - appreciate the help.

bat1161 · January 2001

Forgive my ignorance, but after all this talk of hill-holders I am curious as to what it is,and what does it do. I have only heard it mentioned on these boards, and with Patty saying there is talk of bringing it back I am hoping someone can enlighten me.
Thanks,
Mark

p0926 · January 2001

Chris- Congratulations on your new LL Bean Outback!

Regarding your first question: If your remote is the same as mine, to disable the horn, simply depress both buttons simultaneously for approx 2 seconds. Repeating the procedure enables the horn again.

Not sure what you mean with your 2nd question. The keyless remote entry is just that. Do you mean that you want to lock your vehicle and not set the alarm?

FYI: If you use either the remote or the front passenger door switches to lock the vehicle, unlocking with the key will set off the alarm. You can cancel the alarm with either the remote or by rapidly turning the key in the ignition 3(?) times.

-Frank P.

p0926 · January 2001

Karen S- Thanks for the response (even though it's not what I wanted to hear). I just wanted to add my .02 regarding what a blow it is to lose the search capability. However, I understand Edmunds can't be everything to everybody and we get what we pay for. It's still a great site and we really do appreciate the efforts you are making to improve it.

-Frank P.

williams23 · January 2001

Frank - thanks for answer to 1st question.

As far as second question goes - yes, that's it. What if I want to lock my car (either by key alone, or preferably with remote) and NOT set the alarm?

- Chris

ateixeira · January 2001

Mark: the hill-holder clutch basically prevented the car from moving backwards when you engaged the clutch at a stop.

Novice clutch users especially have trouble with the vehicle rolling backwards (on an uphill, hence the name) before they were able to do the gas/brakes/clutch shuffle. If you're not quick, the car could stall or even hit the car behind you.

The alternative is to use the handbrake, and gently release it as you hit the gas. But the hill holder is just easier.

-juice

miksmi · January 2001

The History of Subaru by Adrian Kirk-Burnnand on subaru.rivals.net. A re-hash from FHI but might be of interest to our new members.

..Mike

miksmi · January 2001

lucien2 Jan 24, 2001 7:09pm

>But the 2.5 will definitely give the car more squirt than you are enjoying now.

ba-da-bing! hehe Loosh, you checked "Caroline"'s profile. I read a few entries; they tickled my funny bone.

Didn't think I was paying attention, did ya Loosh?

..Mike

yellowbikedon · January 2001

Chris,

As an LL Bean owner, welcome to the fold! With a bit more than 1,200 miles on the odometer to date, I've had no problems whatsoever and, compared to my former '96 Outback, I'm very excited with the improvements which have taken place. Gas mileage continues to move higher and I've recorded 21.4 mpg on the last tank full.

As far as the missing information on the security system remote, ask your selling dealer to obtain another brochure for you! It shouldn't be too difficult!

Keep posting your results and impressions!

Don

sibbald · January 2001

Chris, if you do not want to set your car alarm, just lock your car by using the manual inside door lock (not the power door lock), or use your key to lock the car from the outside.
Tom

rsholland · January 2001

with Graham, Ken and David: The Hill Holder clutch is a gem, and is just one of those neat features that helps separate Subarus from from the masses.

Bob

kens · January 2001

Don,

What are some of the improvements that you find significant? How's the power increase? Love to hear your feedback.

Ken

drew_ · January 2001

I read in the Vancover Sun Wheels section that the Hill Holder feature basically worked by (progressively) applied or released the front brakes while the clutch pedal was being pushed.

Drew
Host
Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

lark6 · January 2001

One has to wonder. Of course there were no boxer-engined AWD Studes, nor to my knowledge did Studebaker sponsor a rally team. (Note to Aussies out there: I do believe Larks road raced and possibly rallied in Oz?) They did build 4WD trucks, and they did have 2 prototypes built for them by Porsche which did have V6s. Further, they had moderate racing success in the 1930s and a high-performance image in the early 1960s just before their demise. No, what I see most of all is that both marques inspire a cult like devotion in their owners.

Not feeling so cult like about my Stude tonight as I wrestle with a broken reclining seat back mechanism.

Ed

ateixeira · January 2001

Hill holder = cool and unique. Just what Subaru is overall.

I've heard Subaru called the Japanese Saab. Porsche, too, with the boxers.

You know, BMW uses a BOXER twin in its motorcycles. Hilarious, no? The brochure raves about how great the design is, the low center of gravity, balance, etc.

Thanks, BMW!

BTW, cool chat was had tonight. Don't forget, every Thursday.

-juice

williams23 · January 2001

Thanks to everyone w/ the quick responses on the security system. Y'all are very welcoming.

I gotta say that one of the main reasons i bought a subaru was the fanatically loyal owners I talked to. If my first 250 miles are any indication I'll be one too :-)

Chris

miksmi · January 2001

Wow, great chat! Thanks paisan, Ross, Bob/rsholland, yellowbikedon, Ken, juice. Big news was Ken's scoop on today's announcement of the GT-Limited announcement at the Subaru of Japan (SoJ) site: Legacy Touring Wagon GT.Limited. Very exciting but Japan Domestic Market only, unless we start campaigning SoA.

I would rather see the GT-B E-tune reach North America, as I prefer 5MT over an auto.

..Mike

yellowbikedon · January 2001

Ken,

Major differences-'01 LL Bean vs. '96 Outback:
1. Quiet, quiet, quiet! What a difference.
2. Doors "thunk" when closed. Vault-like.
3. More power, especially beginning at 3k rpm.
4. Great automatic climate control system. Simple.
5. 8 way power seat is fabulous!
6. Sound system (stock) far superior.
7. Interior more "plush." An ego item.
8. White Frost Pearl paint is most attractive.
9. Rigidity of body is noticeable.
10.Position of window switches more ergonomic.

These are the thoughts that come to mind quickly. By the way, the gas mileage during the winter weather, in city driving, has been the SAME as it was with the 2.5 engine. Amazing.

Hope this helps.

Don

vanbojp · January 2001

I am about to purchase the Outback Wagon... I have a 15-month old daughter, and another on the way. I want to know if anyone has any experience with the child seat that is built-in the Outback... can you still fit another car seat next to it? Is it safe? Does it compromise the comfort of the middle seating position when folded up? Any insight would be much appreciated; I'm looking at ordering the Outback within the next week. thx!

c_hunter · January 2001

Chris: I didn't see anyone give the correct answer yet, so here goes, straight from the insert in this month's Subaru Drive magazine. To engage "valet mode" (this disables security while still allowing keyless entry):

1. open driver's door

2. Depress and hold Unlock/Disarm for more than 2 seconds.

3. Close driver's door

The system is now in valet mode (regular keyless entry), which allows you to lock/unlock the doors without activating the alarm. It will stay this way until you disable valet mode (by the same procedure).

Craig

subaru_team · January 2001

Hi Mark! The hill holder is actually a "pressure holding valve" in the braking system of the vehicle. By taping the brake with the car in gear, you prevent roll-back when going from a stop. Hope this helps!

Patti

subaru_team · January 2001

Hi Jim! FYI - we have had no complaints, that I'm aware of, with the integrated seat. It is in the place where some of our vehicles have a center arm rest that pulls down. You pull it down when you are using it, and push it up when you are not. Other seats can be placed on the outboard sides. It meets all Federal Safety Standards.

Give us a call if you need more help at 1-800-SUBARU3.

Welcome to Subaru!

Patti

francophile · January 2001

Mikesmi, your Subie history link provided me with the information that the turbo Legacy wagon holds the world speed record for factory-stock station wagons, 270+kmh. Wow! That's 168mph. No wonder my GT sedan felt completely at ease at a mere 120+ (according to its speedo).

BTW, information on that GT-B you (and I!) like so much is available in English:

http://www.subaru.co.nz/range_models/range_model_legacy_2001new.html

Cheers,

-wdb

miksmi · January 2001

subaru_team Jan 26, 2001 3:31am

Patti, you ROCK!

woops, old line.

Thanks for getting the correct answer.

Accurate technical details from Subaru of America.. schweet.

..Mike

miksmi · January 2001

HYeah bud-dee! Thanks bro, you da man! *big ol' grin*

Ash, does WDB's link do anything for you? Not an RS-4 but it's an (affordable) start.

GT-B E-tune... come on down!

Patti? Oh, Paaa-teeee??

..Mike

brekke · January 2001

miksmi Jan 25, 2001 12:46pm

Doh! Apparently I wasn't paying attention because I completely missed the squirt reference. But I am glad you liked some of my writing, Mike.

...In addition to the 2.5L, all the new imprezas are stiffer and stronger than the last gen, not just the WRXes?

kens · January 2001

Cool chat last night, guys. I think it's great that Edmund's hosts events like that. I only wish the chat interface was as sophisticated as some of the major ones like AOL, ICQ or Yahoo IM.

Mike -- glad to know the links made it through at the last minute! That was close!

Don -- Thanks for the feedback. Those are major improvements. I think I noticed 1,2,9&10 just between the regular Y2K OB and the previous generation. The door 'thud' is a nice sound. Wish my Forester had it on it's front doors.

juice -- Actually, Subaru openly compares themselves to Porsche in Japan and the US. Interestingly, Subaru does get input from Porsche on their vehicles (ie. Blitzen).

Ken

ramon · January 2001

noticed that we just got a heck of alot more clubs forming here?! =(

hondafriek · January 2001

Hi ken any movement at the dealer level yet regarding your transmission problem was just wondering if you had any satisfaction yet.
Cheers Pat.

bat1161 · January 2001

Thanks to one and all for the education on the hill-holder function. I have to agree that this is one of the reasons that I chose my OB, due to all the expert advice out there. It's great to have an area where I can turn to owners and manufacture Reps with questions that I would feel funny asking the dealership, without feeling that foolish.

Thanks again.
Mark

kens · January 2001

Pat,

I'm currently working with a senior rep at SOA thanks to help from Patti. The rep has calls out to some tech people to see what the best way to approach the problem is. I'll keep you posted on any developments.

Ken

yellowbikedon · January 2001

Ken,

With your reference to Porsche, make sure you scan the March copy of Automobile magazine, page 110, and see their words re: Porsche and WRX.

Don

lucien2 · January 2001

Mike Smith-

you sly dog, it got by Caroline, but not YOU. Naw, can't get a thing past you....

Juice-
When I was a kid I actually thought Subaru WAS a Swedish company. Go fig.

Caroline-

"take that industrial design degree, build yourself a bridge, and get over it!"
bwa ha ha ha! Yes quite funny. You're not nearly as cheeky here.

Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

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