Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

xwesx · October 2020

qbrozen said:
I celebrated the news by taking the Pac out for a ... spirited ... drive to the pharmacy. It definitely has decent power, has more gears, is quite a bit lighter than our van, and has a lower center of gravity, so it can translate it into forward momentum more effectively. That's about it for positives.

Hey, that's something! There was a time when such a loaner from "Chrysler" would net no positives at all! I believe @andres3 could attest to that!

tjc78 · October 2020

nyccarguy said:

tjc78 said:
I’ll hit them up tomorrow for details just to see what they did.

MF must be marked up big time as they show discounts and rebates.
53% isn’t a bad residual for a GM car. Who in their right mind would pay $850 a month for that car?

Certainly not me!

qbrozen · October 2020

xwesx said:

qbrozen said:
I celebrated the news by taking the Pac out for a ... spirited ... drive to the pharmacy. It definitely has decent power, has more gears, is quite a bit lighter than our van, and has a lower center of gravity, so it can translate it into forward momentum more effectively. That's about it for positives.
Hey, that's something! There was a time when such a loaner from "Chrysler" would net no positives at all! I believe @andres3 could attest to that!

I tried begging for a Challenger R/T they had but she said it was reserved.

In other news, today was our anniversary. I confessed that I had pondered a convertible for her. She said “oooo... i would have liked that.” :rolleyes:

Michaell · October 2020

This is the infamous "Scotty" I hear y'all talking about? I've never seen one of his videos.

My dad was ready to buy a 4-cyl Camry LE when he found the Sonata. He could get the V6 for the same price, and he also discovered the sheet metal on the Hyundai was thicker than on the Toyota.

My sisters mechanic was pretty impressed at the condition of ours - of course, being garage kept and only driven 2000-3000 miles a year on average will preserve a car well.

Same colors as the one I'm bringing back to Colorado, just cloth seats instead of leather.

xwesx · October 2020

corvette said:
I guess it's a moot point since they no longer offer the lifetime warranty as an option, but I wonder what they did if someone bought a car and the lifetime warranty and discovered they hated it a couple of months later--does the warranty and the money paid for it just vanish into thin air since it's not transferable?

Not sure... although, the warranty game is exactly that: The group that offers it prices it where they bet that the amount of use it receives is less, on average, than the revenue it provides. Not factoring the time-value of the transaction, the average length-of-ownership cycle is short enough that I'm sure they figured it was a reasonable gamble. They weren't planning on the qbrozens of the world being the majority. Even now, at about 6.5 years, I'm sure that Q is in "elite company" in terms of percent of original owners still out there.

oldfarmer50 · October 2020

nyccarguy said:
I've said before, as long as the bottom line is cheaper, I don't care what the doc fee is. I can't stand when a dealer makes it sound like they are charging it as a right of passage. "We have to charge it, it is pre printed on the bill of sale" I always politely say no, you don't HAVE to charge it, but if you choose to charge a doc fee, then you MUST charge it to everyone.

When I bought my Legacy, the dealer closer to my house in CT (which is a different distributor, Subaru of New England) had a $299 or $399 Conveyance Fee. The dealer 15 minutes down I-95 (in New York) only charged a $75 doc fee. The CT dealer had a lower selling price, but after I netted out everything the NY dealer came out to $100 cheaper (on the nose). I went back to the CT dealer and asked him to lower his selling price by $100. He asked why. I explained. His answer was: "Well I don't see the problem. We ARE selling you the car cheaper than the other dealer, but we HAVE to charge the Conveyance Fee." I thanked him for his time and went to NY to buy the car.

Can’t blame the dealer for trying, there are a lot of people who wouldn’t understand the BS the dealer was shoveling.

oldfarmer50 · October 2020

qbrozen said:

andres3 said:

qbrozen said:
service advisor called today. Apparently the van will be there for quite some time. Because it is a $4k job, FCA is sending an inspector. That will take a day or two, and then the inspector's report and decision is another 4-5 days. Lovely.

I celebrated the news by taking the Pac out for a ... spirited ... drive to the pharmacy. It definitely has decent power, has more gears, is quite a bit lighter than our van, and has a lower center of gravity, so it can translate it into forward momentum more effectively. That's about it for positives.
They gave you a free loaner???
It is actually a rental! They are paying for it. They have a deal with the local Enterprise. And my lifetime warranty includes a loaner, sooo...

I do have to pay $5/day, though, for taxes or some such fee.

We often deliver cars to dealerships and body shops for use as loaners. Frequently we have an office near the area where all the car lots are located. I’m sure the dealer is willing to drive a customer across the street if he has insurance that will cover a rental.

oldfarmer50 · October 2020

andres3 said:
https://carsandbids.com/auctions/304gVEYg/2012-volvo-s60-t6-awd-r-design

I like the color, and it's not far from me, but is it fast? Will it fall apart and need monthly care?

What about this as my FIRST BMW in life? https://carsandbids.com/auctions/9nqWpb8B/2000-bmw-m5

Any pitfalls? What should it sell at?

Aren’t BMW V8s to be feared? That vintage is my favorite style.

xwesx · October 2020

tifighter said:
Another strategy is to eliminate most of the maintenance altogether.

Hey, don't be coming in here just to stab us in the kidneys... You at least need to post for congenial purposes as well!

xwesx · October 2020

qbrozen said:

I tried begging for a Challenger R/T they had but she said it was reserved.

In other news, today was our anniversary. I confessed that I had pondered a convertible for her. She said “oooo... i would have liked that.” :rolleyes:

Ah, I bet the clerk was just messing with you...

Well, live and learn! Or, just live. I don't know about yours, but my wife will swear that I never learn (anything good, anyway).

corvette · October 2020

oldfarmer50 said:

Aren’t BMW V8s to be feared? That vintage is my favorite style.

Yes, and at that age, is not going to be cheap to maintain (the 540i I owned from that generation a few years back certainly was not).

stickguy · October 2020

the Jetta loaner my daughter had this week was from Enterprise (last time IIRC it was just from the dealer). no real difference to her, but it did smell a bit (like smoke I think, or maybe it was the cleaners they used)

oldfarmer50 · October 2020

stickguy said:
just had to post this for Michael.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK49fizlT4U

I thought Michael was getting an Elantra.

explorerx4 · October 2020

I assumed the caption in the video referred to the the person pictured.
More than I want to spend, but I'm keeping this in mind.
https://www.torringtonfordct.com/new-Torrington-2020-Ford-Expedition-Limited-1FMJU2ATXLEA52123

Michaell · October 2020

oldfarmer50 said:

stickguy said:
just had to post this for Michael.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK49fizlT4U
I thought Michael was getting an Elantra.

Nope. Moms car is a 2003 Hyundai Sonata GLS V6.

corvette · October 2020

explorerx4 said:
I assumed the caption in the video referred to the the person pictured.
More than I want to spend, but I'm keeping this in mind.
https://www.torringtonfordct.com/new-Torrington-2020-Ford-Expedition-Limited-1FMJU2ATXLEA52123

Very nice! The shorter wheelbase is one of the things I miss about my old Tahoe, compared to the Tundra.

28firefighter · October 2020

Of the most recent M5s, the E39 is probably the most highly regarded. But, you aren’t buying it because it’ll live on nothing but oil changes for 250k miles. You take care of it and it’ll take care of you.

tifighter · October 2020

xwesx said:

tifighter said:
Another strategy is to eliminate most of the maintenance altogether.
Hey, don't be coming in here just to stab us in the kidneys... You at least need to post for congenial purposes as well!

Hey, love hertz.

stickguy · October 2020

explorerx4 said:
I assumed the caption in the video referred to the the person pictured.
More than I want to spend, but I'm keeping this in mind.
https://www.torringtonfordct.com/new-Torrington-2020-Ford-Expedition-Limited-1FMJU2ATXLEA52123

I guess replacing an F150, the size of the barge doesn't bother you! Not bad looking, but $80K sticker, yowzers.

xwesx · October 2020

I love the look and layout of the new Expeditions. That price tag is a tough pill to swallow, though... for sure!

Michaell · October 2020

xwesx said:
I love the look and layout of the new Expeditions. That price tag is a tough pill to swallow, though... for sure!

While I don't remember the sticker price on the '99 Expedition XLT 4x4 we leased, I remember the payment being $465/mo.

tjc78 · October 2020

Michaell said:

xwesx said:
I love the look and layout of the new Expeditions. That price tag is a tough pill to swallow, though... for sure!
While I don't remember the sticker price on the '99 Expedition XLT 4x4 we leased, I remember the payment being $465/mo.

That’s my Volvo payment! 50K MSRP.

oldfarmer50 · October 2020

explorerx4 said:
I assumed the caption in the video referred to the the person pictured.
More than I want to spend, but I'm keeping this in mind.
https://www.torringtonfordct.com/new-Torrington-2020-Ford-Expedition-Limited-1FMJU2ATXLEA52123

That’s a beautiful vehicle but that price! Yikes. That’s more than I paid for my house.

oldfarmer50 · October 2020

Michaell said:

oldfarmer50 said:

stickguy said:
just had to post this for Michael.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK49fizlT4U
I thought Michael was getting an Elantra.
Nope. Moms car is a 2003 Hyundai Sonata GLS V6.

My bad.

au1994 · October 2020

tjc78 said:

au1994 said:

tjc78 said:
So, I couldn't help myself....

I get a text from the dealer I bought the Enclave from. Typical type of solicitation. I'm eligible for pull ahead, incredible October incentives, etc, etc

So I said sure... quote me on a fully loaded Enclave @ 36/10. They only have four in stock, so I can only imagine how bad this quote will be.

No intention of buying until after we close on the house, but with everything going on I can use some entertainment right now.
When do you close? You’ve obviously got the upper hand in negotiation since you don’t have to do anything right now. Counter with something ridiculously low. It’s 2020, you never know what may be accepted.
So they quoted a 60K Enclave Avenir at $847 a month with zero DAS.

That’s seriously funny stuff right there. That must include a free Encore lease as well.

What a joke!

au1994 · October 2020

explorerx4 said:
I assumed the caption in the video referred to the the person pictured.
More than I want to spend, but I'm keeping this in mind.
https://www.torringtonfordct.com/new-Torrington-2020-Ford-Expedition-Limited-1FMJU2ATXLEA52123

Pretty but man, yeah. These and the Tahoe’s have gotten crazy price wise.

au1994 · October 2020

corvette said:
Pretty sure those lease numbers are worse than a Tahoe or Yukon. That was the dilemma when I leased the Tundra--either I could have leased a new Tahoe, *or* a new Tundra plus two Tacomas for the same vig.

I can’t quite figure out why the Tahoe/Yukon duo lease so poorly. Nobody expects numbers like some of y’all found on Tundras and Tacomas but still...

ab348 · October 2020

Michaell said:
This is the infamous "Scotty" I hear y'all talking about? I've never seen one of his videos.

Neither had I. That one lasted less than a minute because he sounded like he was drunk, stoned, or otherwise intoxicated. Pass.

corvette · October 2020

au1994 said:

corvette said:
Pretty sure those lease numbers are worse than a Tahoe or Yukon. That was the dilemma when I leased the Tundra--either I could have leased a new Tahoe, *or* a new Tundra plus two Tacomas for the same vig.
I can’t quite figure out why the Tahoe/Yukon duo lease so poorly. Nobody expects numbers like some of y’all found on Tundras and Tacomas but still...

The resale isn’t that great on them. You can generally pick up a 3 year old used one for substantially less than MSRP. Legitstreetcars got a screaming deal on an Escalade for his wife, although to be fair, it needed a little reconditioning and had a bad Carfax. 3 year old Tacomas and Tundras are like trying to score a bargain on a “demo model” Accord with 5,000 miles.

kyfdx · October 2020

nyccarguy said:

tjc78 said:
I’ll hit them up tomorrow for details just to see what they did.

MF must be marked up big time as they show discounts and rebates.
53% isn’t a bad residual for a GM car. Who in their right mind would pay $850 a month for that car?

People are leasing $36K Tellurides for $500/mo.

au1994 · October 2020

Just checked a local Chevy dealer out of curiosity. ‘21 Tahoe LT 4WD, 0 down, 36/10, $850/mo Tier 1 credit. $58k MSRP.

stickguy · October 2020

I haven’t been shopping, but it seems that recently lease prices overall are up quite a bit. And the killer bargain $200 deals are not really out there any more.

This jive with what the experts are seeing every day?

Not sure if I’ll lease again next year or not. If I do, hopefully the market stabilizes by then!

qbrozen · October 2020

"clean title" and "nice original paint"
Anyone else looking at these pics find those statements suspect?
C70 in FL

stickguy · October 2020

I’m real interested in seeing this. I always liked mini trucks.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m8hrNrkkUbM

au1994 · October 2020

stickguy said:
I’m real interested in seeing this. I always liked mini trucks.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m8hrNrkkUbM

Yeah, thats pretty cool!

explorerx4 · October 2020

@qbrozen,
Maybe they meant original paint color. :@

tjc78 · October 2020

Supply is down so I think that has something to do with it.

If you are a willing buyer ready to sign, deals can be struck. I'm sure if I was ready to pull the trigger I could get that 60K Enclave down to $600 with zero DAS.

Not even sure we really want one, I was just intrigued with "incentives are off the charts"

Michaell said:

tjc78 said:

au1994 said:

tjc78 said:
So, I couldn't help myself....

I get a text from the dealer I bought the Enclave from. Typical type of solicitation. I'm eligible for pull ahead, incredible October incentives, etc, etc

So I said sure... quote me on a fully loaded Enclave @ 36/10. They only have four in stock, so I can only imagine how bad this quote will be.

No intention of buying until after we close on the house, but with everything going on I can use some entertainment right now.
When do you close? You’ve obviously got the upper hand in negotiation since you don’t have to do anything right now. Counter with something ridiculously low. It’s 2020, you never know what may be accepted.
So they quoted a 60K Enclave Avenir at $847 a month with zero DAS.

That’s seriously funny stuff right there. That must include a free Encore lease as well.
36/12 numbers are .00007 and 53%, which means the adjusted cap is right around $62,100.

Not much of a discount from MSRP, me thinks; or, there is a big discount, but they've marked up the MF to compensate.

Either way, a hard pass.

Backing into their numbers:

MSRP - $59860
Discount - $1653
SP - $58207
Rebate - 2500

In order to get their payment I need to raise the MF to .0011

So all in all they pretty much tried to hit a grand slam with this one.

explorerx4 · October 2020

Most of the large SUV's I see are rentals.

Michaell · October 2020

stickguy said:
I haven’t been shopping, but it seems that recently lease prices overall are up quite a bit. And the killer bargain $200 deals are not really out there any more.

This jive with what the experts are seeing every day?

Not sure if I’ll lease again next year or not. If I do, hopefully the market stabilizes by then!

Seems like about half the folks who are looking to lease are appalled at how expensive it's gotten. "But, I leased my 2017 Grand Cherokee for under $400/mo. Now the dealer wants $550/mo for essentially the same car!".

Yep, leasing has gotten more expensive, in general. Harder to find the 1% deals, like @tjc78 did on his Volvo.

There have been some reports of sub-$200/mo deals, however. Just not on something most of us would want to drive for the next three years.

sda · October 2020

It appears my Accord sold in two days. It is no longer listed. Someone got a very nice car. I hope they take good care of it! Feels odd to have a 'new' car and just have it sit in the garage as I work from home. I'll find a excuse to drive it this evening, even if it means going to Walmart!

stickguy · October 2020

that is what I was doing with my TLX, just going out to drive it to give it exercise and keep the battery charged. And why I cut it loose early instead of paying a lot of $ per month to have it sit there. Especially when we were also paying for another nice car that doesn't get enough use either.

Just passed 7 month anniversary and I think just ticked over 2,600 miles. 1,400+ of which was put on in 2 weekends going up to NY/VT. So outside of that, probably not putting 200 miles/month on it (the TLX wasn't doing much more than that either)

andres3 · October 2020

stickguy said:
the weird dynamics of monthly payment is what I love about leasing. The thrill of finding out what nice cars can be had for less money than boring ones!

MEH! For me, leasing is the equivalent of the TIMESHARE industry. Too many reoccurring access points for scammers to scam and swindle you for more money, and you have no leverage to stop it. I prefer AirBNB, owning, selling, and hotels/motels.

andres3 · October 2020

sda said:
It appears my Accord sold in two days. It is no longer listed. Someone got a very nice car. I hope they take good care of it! Feels odd to have a 'new' car and just have it sit in the garage as I work from home. I'll find a excuse to drive it this evening, even if it means going to Walmart!

You know, Chrysler's were never all that bad in whole if you ignore durability and reliability as factors.

For instance, I'm fairly certain my Neon could beat any "same model-year" Civic short of an SI in a drag race. That's pretty impressive considering the Honda sounds 100 times more efficient and better doing it (and is more efficient fuel economy wise). The problem was in order to win the race the Neon needed to not snap a belt or blow head gaskets or the transmission on the way to winning. Even if you did blow a head gasket the leak is probably slow enough you'll win the race, you'll just have expensive repair bills later; ditto the transmission; it won't strand you, but you'll start to notice drivability issues such as slipping. Meanwhile, you could drag race the Civic for 300,000 miles without a single oil change

OK, maybe that's a SLIGHT exaggeration on the Civic.

stickguy · October 2020

andres3 said:

stickguy said:
the weird dynamics of monthly payment is what I love about leasing. The thrill of finding out what nice cars can be had for less money than boring ones!
MEH! For me, leasing is the equivalent of the TIMESHARE industry. Too many reoccurring access points for scammers to scam and swindle you for more money, and you have no leverage to stop it. I prefer AirBNB, owning, selling, and hotels/motels.

leasing is just an alternative method of financing a car.

nyccarguy · October 2020

To be fair, the big GM trucks are nice vehicles. My Dad has a 2018 Yukon SLT that he factory ordered with no sunroof or DVD player. It currently has over 62,000 miles. It has been flawless. Maintenance costs are minimal. It drives beautifully, the V8 sounds fantastic and puts down ample power. This is his 4th (he had a 2009, 2010, & 2015 previously). None of them have held their value very well. The 2010 was "underwater" when he traded it in on the 2011 (in 2012). The 2011 was underwater when he traded it in and leased the 2015. When the 39 month lease was up on the 2015, he bought the 2018, and he took a 5 year 0% loan instead of the 6 years they offered. He'll probably get a new one in 2021 or 2022.

andres3 · October 2020

sda said:
It appears my Accord sold in two days. It is no longer listed. Someone got a very nice car. I hope they take good care of it! Feels odd to have a 'new' car and just have it sit in the garage as I work from home. I'll find a excuse to drive it this evening, even if it means going to Walmart!

Time to update your signature line, and mine too!

andres3 · October 2020

stickguy said:

andres3 said:

stickguy said:
the weird dynamics of monthly payment is what I love about leasing. The thrill of finding out what nice cars can be had for less money than boring ones!
MEH! For me, leasing is the equivalent of the TIMESHARE industry. Too many reoccurring access points for scammers to scam and swindle you for more money, and you have no leverage to stop it. I prefer AirBNB, owning, selling, and hotels/motels.
leasing is just an alternative method of financing a car.

I could agree with that if there wasn't disposition fees, subjective "excess wear and tear" type fees, and essentially what amounts to prepayment penalties. Also, financing isn't "guaranteed" at the end of the lease. With a "balloon" payment mortgage, for example, what I recall is that all the financing was guaranteed and defined at the end of "balloon popping" period. I might be wrong on that.

au1994 · October 2020

nyccarguy said:
To be fair, the big GM trucks are nice vehicles. My Dad has a 2018 Yukon SLT that he factory ordered with no sunroof or DVD player. It currently has over 62,000 miles. It has been flawless. Maintenance costs are minimal. It drives beautifully, the V8 sounds fantastic and puts down ample power. This is his 4th (he had a 2009, 2010, & 2015 previously). None of them have held their value very well. The 2010 was "underwater" when he traded it in on the 2011 (in 2012). The 2011 was underwater when he traded it in and leased the 2015. When the 39 month lease was up on the 2015, he bought the 2018, and he took a 5 year 0% loan instead of the 6 years they offered. He'll probably get a new one in 2021 or 2022.

I think they are very attractive, especially the Yukon. I like that front end a little better, speaking of the previous gen. I drove a neighbors Yukon XL Denali and was duly impressed. Interior was nice and comfortable and the materials were a cut above standard Tahoe or Yukon interiors. GM still does big V-8 trucks and SUV’s well.

stickguy · October 2020

andres3 said:

stickguy said:

andres3 said:

stickguy said:
the weird dynamics of monthly payment is what I love about leasing. The thrill of finding out what nice cars can be had for less money than boring ones!
MEH! For me, leasing is the equivalent of the TIMESHARE industry. Too many reoccurring access points for scammers to scam and swindle you for more money, and you have no leverage to stop it. I prefer AirBNB, owning, selling, and hotels/motels.
leasing is just an alternative method of financing a car.
I could agree with that if there wasn't disposition fees, subjective "excess wear and tear" type fees, and essentially what amounts to prepayment penalties. Also, financing isn't "guaranteed" at the end of the lease. With a "balloon" payment mortgage, for example, what I recall is that all the financing was guaranteed and defined at the end of "balloon popping" period. I might be wrong on that.

All the fees are just rolled into the price. And if you buy a car, there are also wear and tear penalties if you go to sell it (that is, you get less for it). Especially if it has a wreck with major repairs needed.

If you Buy a car with a loan and after 3 years sell it, your cost is basically payments and depreciation. No different than on a lease. The biggest difference being, on a lease, you are guaranteed a residual. On your purchase, it’s worth what someone decides to offer you.

And very often, there are significant lease incentives which offset the up front and disposition costs. But still, the bottom line is comparing your total cost to own to determine which method is more cost effective.

nyccarguy · October 2020

stickguy said:

andres3 said:

stickguy said:

andres3 said:

stickguy said:
the weird dynamics of monthly payment is what I love about leasing. The thrill of finding out what nice cars can be had for less money than boring ones!
MEH! For me, leasing is the equivalent of the TIMESHARE industry. Too many reoccurring access points for scammers to scam and swindle you for more money, and you have no leverage to stop it. I prefer AirBNB, owning, selling, and hotels/motels.
leasing is just an alternative method of financing a car.
I could agree with that if there wasn't disposition fees, subjective "excess wear and tear" type fees, and essentially what amounts to prepayment penalties. Also, financing isn't "guaranteed" at the end of the lease. With a "balloon" payment mortgage, for example, what I recall is that all the financing was guaranteed and defined at the end of "balloon popping" period. I might be wrong on that.
All the fees are just rolled into the price. And if you buy a car, there are also wear and tear penalties if you go to sell it (that is, you get less for it). Especially if it has a wreck with major repairs needed.

If you Buy a car with a loan and after 3 years sell it, your cost is basically payments and depreciation. No different than on a lease. The biggest difference being, on a lease, you are guaranteed a residual. On your purchase, it’s worth what someone decides to offer you.

And very often, there are significant lease incentives which offset the up front and disposition costs. But still, the bottom line is comparing your total cost to own to determine which method is more cost effective.

Amen!

Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

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