I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

fintail · February 2021

June 1978, first this nova, with some options, MSRP $5100s (inflation!) What a color, but I guess it was 1978:

And something uncommon then and now, this Concord in a nice color, some options (slotted mags!). MSRP $4555, which also seems low, but I know these cars were sold as value propositions:

Been a while since I've seen one of those, the later ones with the rear quarter window will always be Gary's dad's (Al) car in 'Weird Science':

uplanderguy · February 2021

I have to say I like the thin whitewalls of that era, even on a 'Vette. I bet if that very car survives, it's wearing blackwalls or white letters now.

I remember the tires that came with the F-41 suspension on '77 full-size Chevys were a pinstripe whitewall. I like that. In fact, my new '93 Caprice Classic with F-41 had a pinstripe whitewall.

uplanderguy · February 2021

I always thought the '75 Nova (and its ilk) reskin was a smooth and fairly successful update of the old '68-74 which was looking grandfatherly to me by that time. At the time it irked me that they didn't spring to put pull-up exterior door handles, or an inside hood release, in them though.

My best high-school buddy got a '76 Nova strippo coupe while his car was being repaired in a body shop. The Nova was new or close to it. It had plaid cloth seating which looked horrible, but we both thought it was comfortable and the cloth actually felt like a blanket.

I know I like Studebakers, which were the kings of hanging onto a design, but I can't see one of those later AMC's without thinking "1970 Hornet".

ab348 · February 2021

uplanderguy said:
Didn't Engel do the '61 Continental? I think he was responsible for the conservative, elegant '65 Chryslers and I think the '64-66 Imperials, one of the only times I'd have had a hard time choosing between a Cadillac and an Imperial in that price class!

I'd love a '66 Imperial LeBaron--never seen in my town; only the Crown models.

Yes on all counts. Apparently the '61 Continental was an adaptation of a failed design he offered up for the '58 Thunderbird, and it was suggested he adapt it to the proposed Continental. I really like the '65 Chrysler in particular, a very handsome design. I actually prefer the '67 Imperial to the earlier ones, in part because the '66 and prior still used the '50s Forward Look windshield and A-pillars. It's a shame Chrysler never seemed sure what to do with the Imperial.

Engel was a protege of George Walker, the designer who became Ford's first styling VP in 1955. When he retired, Engel did not get the call to succeed him, that job going to Gene Bordinat. He was discontented and Walker apparently recommended him to Chrysler, who were looking to replace Virgil Exner.

In some profiles about stylists of that era I've seen references to Engel being gruff and crude, but in others I've read that he was a great boss, so who knows. I suspect most of the auto company design chiefs back then had pretty big egos. I thought this note he left behind on a design was pretty cool (though spelling apparently wasn't a strength):

uplanderguy · February 2021

That is a nice note.

You've heard me say many times that Bill Mitchell grew up in my little hometown and would return back. Supposedly he was a terrible boss and a big drinker. I always remember reading him saying that designing a small car "...was like tailoring a dwarf".

I believe the '75 Seville and '77 Caprice were two of his last designs. When we got our '77 Impala coupe in Nov. '76, I remember a bag boy at the A&P (remember when they'd actually carry your groceries out to your car?) said "That looks like a Seville!". I think mostly only in the large rounded wheel openings and otherwise simple proportions.

My favorite Chrysler, besides Imperial, is the '65 300-L. We talked about this before though, but I thought GM's interior studios had it all over everybody else in that time period. I think a lot of that though is whatever you were used to.

andre1969 · February 2021

I really liked the restyle of the Nova for '75, as well. I thought it was curious that it sold poorly at first. I remember one of my Consumer Guide history books put it as "sales withered on the vine". Sales fell from around 390K of the '74 models, to around 273K '75s.

However, one thing I never realized before...I always thought 1974 was a worse year than '75, when it came to auto sales. I'd always thought '73 was a record year, but then the oil embargo knocked the market down for '74, and then '75-76 were recovery years, with things really taking off again in '77. But, looking at sales figures, it looks like it got bad in '74, and then even worse in '75.

As a whole, Chevy fell from 2.334M to 1.756M, from '74-75. In '73 they were around 2.580M. So, the market tightening up in general was probably responsible for part of that drop. If Chevy hadn't redesigned the Nova, it might have fell even worse!

It also looks like 1974 was the Nova's best sales year, ever, despite the oil embargo. So, maybe between the high prices, fuel shortages, and all this "end of the world" scaremongering that was going on back then, a lot of people rushed out and bought them? That might have pulled a lot of sales forward...people who would have otherwise waited a year or two to buy a car, suddenly decided it was time for something more economical, and ASAP. Another factor was probably the Ford Granada. It was a pretty hot item when it hit the market for '75.

Here's where I'm getting some of these stats from:
Annual auto production: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures
Nova production: https://www.novaresource.org/production.htm

Some of those Wikipedia numbers appear off, though. I don't know about 73/74/75, specifically, but for as long as I can remember, the accepted figures for '57 DeSotos was around 117,500, and around 124,000 for Chrysler. But this site lists around 126K for DeSoto and 122K for Chrysler. But then, I see a lot of numbers that are correct, so who knows? But, it probably still serves well as a rough guide.

kyfdx · February 2021

Saw a mid-70's Hornet on Friday evening on the I-71. That's pretty rare.

uplanderguy · February 2021

We bought our '73 Nova six with 3-speed floor shift on 10/6/72. When it was hit hard in August '74, we got $2,700 for it in trade, including the insurance check--it cost $2,625. All of a sudden, our hometown dealer in spring '73 and all through even '75's model year, had Nova stick shifts in inventory. They were a rare sight there earlier than that. Ours was like the first one they'd had in six months before that. So at least where I lived, they were considered more appealing or attractive as late-model used cars than they normally would have been.

uplanderguy · February 2021

I'm amazed the '74 Nova sold that well. The four-door was particularly unattractive IMHO.

The smallest V8? A 350, which was called out on the front fenders.

Probably not great in '74, or so it would seem.

ab348 · February 2021

Remember in '74 and '75 the economy was reeling due to "stagflation" driven in part by much higher oil prices. I'll always remember President Ford's "WIN" (Whip Inflation Now) campaign as a prime example of why governments should be wary of trying to do marketing/PR. Car prices were increasing along with everything else and I'm sure that and the economic conditions in general led to the malaise.

andre1969 · February 2021

uplanderguy said:
I'm amazed the '74 Nova sold that well. The four-door was particularly unattractive IMHO.

The smallest V8? A 350, which was called out on the front fenders.

Probably not great in '74, or so it would seem.

The market agreed with you, although in those days 2-doors tended to outsell 4-doors, and often by a wide margin.

For example, with the Nova in '74, the breakdown was:
80,633 hatchbacks
210,984 coupes
98,920 4-door sedans.

But, with, say, the Valiant, the breakdown was:
277,409 Dusters (includes the 360)
127,430 4-door sedans
54,244 hardtop coupes

The disparity wasn't as bad with the Maverick:
139,818 2-doors
137,728 4-doors
23,502 Grabbers

I wonder, with the Maverick, if people got turned off by the 2-door being so much smaller than the 4-door, that many of them just went with the 4-door, perceiving it to be a better value? The 2-door was $2790 and the 4-door was $2824.

sda · February 2021

There was a knee jerk reaction to the gas shortage of 73 that sent many to find better gas mileage and dumped their full size cars. The Novas of the world really didn’t offer much improvement if they had a V8. The 6 cylinders did ok but were weak and often were not available with a/c which then forced some to buy the V8. I imagine there were a lot of disappointed owners to find they didn’t gain much for giving up their larger and more comfortable car. Buyer’s remorse??

andre1969 · February 2021

It's amazing how much fuel economy in general, started tanking around that timeframe. Once they started choking those cars down, even the smaller engines suffered. I remember one time, probably in the '90's, when gas prices were spiking a bit, pulling into the gas station, in my '68 Dart, which had a rebuilt 318 in it. Next pump over, was a guy with a '74 or '75 Valiant 4-door sedan. We struck up a conversation about our cars. He said that he just had a slant six in his. I mentioned that with the way gas prices were getting, I kinda wish I had a slant six, that I was only getting around 13 mpg. He said hell, that's about all he was getting!

My first Dart, a '69 with a 225 slant six, usually got around 15-18 mpg in local driving, and could get 22-23 out on the highway without too much trouble. But, I guess a few years of emissions strangulation, and increased weight from those crash bumpers and such, took their toll.

explorerx4 · February 2021

Interesting car detailing method. Have not heard of this before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYGI0jerISk

fintail · February 2021

The dry ice thing is a new one on me, too. I think that red 210 wagon might have been on BaT or something, car is familiar to me. Somehow I have a feeling the fintail wouldn't take well to that cleaning, as the shock might hurt it, and some of the patina might be keeping things in line.

Speaking of Novas, remember Mama Harper's car:

It was a lemon in the show, and I remember the engine sounded clattery. Fred Willard was excellent as the sleazy used car salesman.

uplanderguy · February 2021

Looks like a '73--no bowtie in the center of the grille as the '74 had (although that could've been removed for the show).

Funny, I will say that in the 22 mos. we owned ours, it was the worst-assembled new Chevy we ever owned. People were often surprised at the low sticker price ($2,625 at the bottom, with optional floor shift, AM radio, Rally Wheels, whitewalls, Exterior Decor Group (body side moldings and bright metal trim around the side windows)). One of the car mags had a Nova review in '72, which our Chevy dealer handed us, about how the Nova's workmanship was better than other compacts and that the Nova "...came across as honest as Iowa on Sunday morning".

Ours made a grinding noise between 2nd and 3rd every so often--Dad could anticipate when it would happen--some ring was missing in the trans. Visible fit and finish was not good. It had a dent in the left side roof gutter which was painted over--no way to fix. (We saw that before Dad bought it). It chirped like a bird when cold and the fix was some GM oil additive. It leaked water in the trunk around the new-for-'73 taillights, and also leaked on the driver's floor and inside the roll-down rear quarter windows (dealer could adjust those).

It was built in Ypsilanti, MI.

andre1969 · February 2021

"I'm gonna name her Blue Thunder!!" One thing that always struck me about that episode, was how Mama insisted she wanted a blue car, and Willie the Weasel said that if she saw any car on the lot that she liked that wasn't painted blue, he would have it painted blue. She responded "No, it's gotta be born blue!"

But, that Nova looked like a repaint to me. I guess it could still have been "born blue", and just been repainted its original color?

Another thing that I thought was amusing about that episode, was that they actually did manage to squeeze six people into that Nova! Mama, Aunt Fran, Vint, Naomi, and Buzz and Sonya. So, I guess if nothing else, that was a testament to the Nova's seating capability. I'm sure the actors would not have been comfortable squeezed in there for any long period of time, though.

sda · February 2021

I liked the 71/72 much better than the 73/74, though I liked the idea of the hatchback. Of the 73/74 I would prefer the Olds Omega, Pontiac Ventura or Buick Apollo in hatchback. The 75 update looked much better and contemporary across all Nova mates.

andre1969 · February 2021

When I was younger, I didn't care for the '68-72 Nova at all, but did like the '73-74, and especially the '75-79. Stylewise, the '75-79 is still my favorite, but now that I look back on all of them, through modern eyes, my opinion has softened on the '68-72, but then I also question why I liked the '73-74 so much more.

The '68-72 had sort of a cheap look to me, while the '73-74 seemed a bit more upscale looking. Or, more realistically, pretentious I guess. But, to be fair, the Maverick was cheap as well, and so was the Dart and Valiant. I think part of it might just be that if you get used to one company's version of "cheap", you simply prefer it to the competition.

uplanderguy · February 2021

I liked the Nova best of the copies in those '71-74 years. To my eyes, the others were 'puffed up' in trim only to differentiate the more-'prestigious' nameplates.

Those, really, were the start of 'badge engineering' at GM, although Ford was doing it at the same time (Maverick/Comet, for example). Same at Mopar with Duster/Demon.

I could handle the 2.5 mph rear bumper on the '73 Nova, but that 5 mph rear bumper on the '74 just burned my eyes.

Today, I could handle a '73 Nova Custom coupe with the Exterior Decor Group, Rally Wheels, whitewalls, and V8, but I never see them as-built.

I rather got tired of seeing the '68-72 Nova, as it seemed they were everywhere for a long time, but now, I like the '68 best of those years as it's the last year that said "Chevy II" on them, LOL.

My favorite Nova ever would be the '75 LN, with 350 ("5.7 Liter"), optional wheel opening moldings, and Turbine wheels.

kyfdx · February 2021

When I was in high school, the '68-'72 Nova was the budget muscle car. You could do just about anything to it that you'd do to a Camaro or Chevelle, but your entry cost was a lot lower.

Less money upfront, and more money for power. I've ridden in some crazy Novas. It's a wonder I lived through it.

andre1969 · February 2021

One area that GM might have gotten lucky, was that they went for such a long time in keeping the compact cars only in the Chevy lineup. They did have the Tempest/F-85/Special from '61-63, but those were upscale, not shared with Chevy, and morphed into true intermediates for '64, when Chevy did finally get a version.

I can't remember Pontiac's rationale for getting the Ventura II, except that they were trying to expand and become all things to all buyers, rather than focusing on being a sporty car a step up from Chevy. But with the Omega and the Apollo, I think the rationale was that the 6-cyl engines were dropped from the Cutlass and Century, leaving a 350 as the smallest engine, so their dealers wanted a car that could still capture some of the low-end market that wanted a Buick or Olds, but only wanted a 6-cyl. So, those cars were sort of thrown together on the quick.

uplanderguy · February 2021

I regretted that the Pontiac, Olds, and Buick compacts were so obviously the Nova....not unlike the Cimarron being a Cavalier, although that of course was taking things to a whole new level, LOL.

fintail · February 2021

TPiR, January 1978. First car was a surprise, something maybe uncommon then and rare now, a Riviera. Maybe nicely optioned, great color combo, MSRP $9028. Bob called it "a lot of automobile":

And something more typically 1978, also nicely optioned (even mentioned AC), MSRP $5156:

For the pre-75 Novas etc, I always preferred the 68-72 as well, for the muscle car image. A good friend in high school had a green on green 69 Nova sedan, originally bought by his great grandfather and used as a hand me down car by his family for years. It was a 307/2 speed, I recall it would hold 1st gear until what seemed like 55 mph under hard acceleration, which alarmed me. Those cars seem to be bigger than a Maverick or Dart/Valiant to my eyes, which makes them seem more upmarket.

uplanderguy · February 2021

I always thought that era Nova was bigger than a Maverick or Hornet, but felt similar in size to me to the Mopar compacts--which were the best-sellers in the early seventies--one of the few times a Mopar led in sales in a size class. They were good cars for the money.

I like the '77-78 Riviera, but I don't love it. It's a very nice LeSabre but not a Riv, LOL. You could hardly go wrong with one at the time.

sda · February 2021

I remember reading about a 72 Ventura II SJ model. It was on the cover of Motor Trend. They even did a road test of it. I thought it was handsome, 4dr, rallye wheels, fabric rollback sunroof, bucket seats. I don't think they went far enough in making the changes but it was promising. I never saw one in the wild and wonder if they ever produced more than the one shown in the magazine. It had the 350.

uplanderguy · February 2021

I specifically remember exactly one Nova with the folding cloth top at our local dealer...a '72 coupe, loaded up, in that dark bronze that was nearly black, with chamois vinyl top and interior. Golde did those tops--same top as what was in my '63 Studebaker.

I don't remember GM ever putting buckets in a four-door until the 1973 Cutlass Salon and Grand Am. I wonder if that test car was a one-off or something.

I had thought the Sky Roof was offered only on coupes but I found a brochure for the '72 Nova Sky Top online and it mentions nothing about being available only on the coupe.

ab348 · February 2021

andre1969 said:
One area that GM might have gotten lucky, was that they went for such a long time in keeping the compact cars only in the Chevy lineup. They did have the Tempest/F-85/Special from '61-63, but those were upscale, not shared with Chevy, and morphed into true intermediates for '64, when Chevy did finally get a version.

I can't remember Pontiac's rationale for getting the Ventura II, except that they were trying to expand and become all things to all buyers, rather than focusing on being a sporty car a step up from Chevy. But with the Omega and the Apollo, I think the rationale was that the 6-cyl engines were dropped from the Cutlass and Century, leaving a 350 as the smallest engine, so their dealers wanted a car that could still capture some of the low-end market that wanted a Buick or Olds, but only wanted a 6-cyl. So, those cars were sort of thrown together on the quick.

Of course, up in here in Canada, it was always the case that Pontiac dealers had a badge engineered Chevy II to sell, called the Acadian. That was due to Pontiac up here being far more popular than in the US and offering a lineup that was Pontiac bodies on Chevy chassis. With the Acadian and later on in the '60s, the Beaumont, they moved away from that and used Chevy bodies with different trim parts to make them look slightly different from the Chevy versions.

kyfdx · February 2021

I always felt like the Nova was bigger than the Hornet or Maverick, as well. It certainly seemed wider.

texases · February 2021

A friend had and AMC Eagle (AWD Hornet), it felt very cramped inside.

andre1969 · February 2021

I can still remember being shocked the first time I looked up the length of a Maverick. I forget the early models, but by the time they were outfitted with crash bumpers both front and rear, they were around 187" for the 2-door, and 194" for the 4-door.

To me, they look a lot smaller than those dimensions suggest. But, those protruding 5 mph bumpers were often good at really inflating the length, but without making the car really look any bigger.

imidazol97 · February 2021

explorerx4 said:
Interesting car detailing method. Have not heard of this before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYGI0jerISk

I hope all of the green folks realize all that dry ice is actually CO2 being liberated into the atmosphere.
Terrible. Sarcasm off.

roadburner · February 2021

I always thought a 1973 SS Nova Hatch would make a nice restomod- 400 hp crate motor, TH-400, 3:42 gears.
Either that or the 1974 GTO...

andre1969 · February 2021

The Nova its siblings were usually considered the best handling of the compacts back then, so they'd definitely be a good basis to start. While Chrysler products tend to be praised for their handling prowess, I think the Nova won out over the Dart/Valiant in this case, because it has a lot of Camaro in its DNA.

uplanderguy · February 2021

My Dad always said our '73 had a great heater, LOL.

In '73 at least, the Nova was priced low IMHO. I routinely saw new Vegas that didn't look too loaded to me with stickers higher than our Nova's was.

sda · February 2021

andre1969 said:
The Nova its siblings were usually considered the best handling of the compacts back then, so they'd definitely be a good basis to start. While Chrysler products tend to be praised for their handling prowess, I think the Nova won out over the Dart/Valiant in this case, because it has a lot of Camaro in its DNA.

IIRC the Dart/Valiant were roomier and rode better than the Nova(s) but the Nova was quieter. If powered by the 6, I believe the slant six was a better engine than the Chevy 6.

uplanderguy · February 2021

I feel almost certain the Nova coupe rear-seat was slightly more accomodating in leg room than even the Chevelle or Monte Carlo coupes! Trunk room was also bigger than the '72 Chevelle, but not the '73.

Yeah, the 250 six was nothing to write home about.

uplanderguy · February 2021

RE.: That yellow Monza from TPIR:

We talked about this a few months back, but at the time the '75 Monza 2+2 came out, I was infatuated. And it was months before our dealer got their first one. I still like the '75 styling in and out the best, although a couple or three years of mechanical improvements made those later cars better, particularly with the V8.

I gotta say though, when I look at that pic, there's definitely a 'football' quality to the shape and that isn't real beautiful now, LOL.

sda · February 2021

I like the original Monza hatchback best. It would have been really interesting had GM been able to use the wankel (rotary) engine as they had originally planned. Too bad the 262 V8 wasn't more powerful as it wasn't very economical either. Had a nice sound to it, thou.

uplanderguy · February 2021

Mopar used to talk up their "Torsion Bar" suspension then, I remember.

A boyhood friend of mine drove a medium green metallic '70 Dart Swinger, vinyl top, slant six, automatic. It was a nice car and he beat on it. His last name was "Barr" and he used to say it had "Torture Barr" suspension, LOL.

fintail · February 2021

I always saw the "football" in the Citation 3-door as well.

Let's jump ahead to December 1986, as I am too young to remember 1978. First, a new style Mazda 323, no MSRP but I suspect it was maybe in the 7-8K range:

Then the progenitor of the Geo Metro, a 3cyl Sprint, had several options. MSRP $6601:

And in the showcase, a fairly loaded Sunbird GT convertible, again no stated MSRP, but maybe around 15K then:

uplanderguy · February 2021

I always use the excuse that about then, as I was working in my first real job, I started 'checking out' of being interested in cars, and this is a function of my age as well no doubt, but those pics remind me why I lost interest, LOL. By then I was really only interested in GM's oldest RWD designs.

uplanderguy · February 2021

The 262 in the first Monza did have a nice sound. So used to hearing four-cylinder noises out of cars that size, it was a bit refreshing. I actually had two high school friends who got new '75 Monza 2+2 V8's.

uplanderguy · February 2021

Yeah, the Citation hatch, especially the two-door, definitely had the 'football' look.

fintail · February 2021

I was 9 in 1986. In terms of cars, it wasn't like being a kid in the 60s

I liked those 323s as they were used as rally cars, and the Sunbird has pop up headlights and a very period paint scheme, so it is cool. The Sprint, well, it is blue. Those were a common sight in high school parking lots when I was a student, now virtually extinct even here (but I still see first gen Geo Metros around, I think they have a cult behind them).

uplanderguy said:
I always use the excuse that about then, as I was working in my first real job, I started 'checking out' of being interested in cars, and this is a function of my age as well no doubt, but those pics remind me why I lost interest, LOL. By then I was really only interested in GM's oldest RWD designs.

stickguy · February 2021

same color and MY as the 323 I had. But ours was a 4 door. Loved that car.

texases · February 2021

The Monza fastback (when's the last time you saw a notch back?) had all the styling elements I liked when it came out, but I didn't like its looks, can't say why, exactly.

stickguy · February 2021

I looked at a used one either late HS or early college. Bright silver. Looked like a spaceship back then. 4 speed, small V8. Too pricey I think. Our mechanic looked it over. I think had a clean report, but he said don’t bring it back for plugs (maybe some other stuff too). That was the model where you had to jack the engine up to get to the rear plugs.

sda · February 2021

I was mistaken, the Ventura was to be an SD edition not SJ. I found this in the May 72 edition of MT. I think if Pontiac had the funding they could have made more of this. They just used existing parts, Not sure if the SD edition was ever produced. Interesting to see the performance comparison to the MB and also how contemporary vehicles just crush older cars in performance and fuel economy.

fintail · February 2021

Wow, that's a new one for me, I wonder if any survived. I suspect those wanting to cross shop it, as cool as it might be, with a MB W108 (which was then 7 years old and soon to be replaced) was a very small list indeed.

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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