Subaru Crew - Future Models II

kens · September 2003

Nice spy pics! I love the ones taken from the side view mirrors -- what stealth!

I wonder where in CA those photos are. It looks like SoCal to me.

The two Japanese-looking drivers in the red Legacy have this grin like they know they've been caught.

Ken

rsholland · September 2003

Victorville, I believe.

Bob

kens · September 2003

Yup, SoCal -- I found the answer to my question on the "other" forum.

One question I had: Were these first article USDM Legacys built here in Indiana or shipped from Gunma? I wonder when the first volume production run will be.

Ken

ateixeira · September 2003

They're supposed to start selling in spring, I kind of doubt they're making them in Indiana already on the assembly line. Maybe a one-off, though.

-juice

rsholland · September 2003

http://subdriven.com/features/04_iaa/legacy/04_iaa_legacy.html

kens · September 2003

Thanks for the link, Bob.

Ken

ateixeira · September 2003

The sedan's "boot hinges" (doesn't that sound so British?) are smaller and tuck under the trim, like the Camry I guess. I'd still prefer to see multilink hinges like VW, BMW, and even Hyundai uses on the Sonata.

-juice

kens · September 2003

So does anyone know if the USDM GT turbo will have the 5EAT? All the reviews and releases we've read indicate that the new 5EAT is for the 3.0R only.

I thought it would be a no-brainer to get the GT with 5MT, but the 3.0 with 5EAT is starting to tempt me. Plus, it'll be here sooner (right?)!

Ken

sube555lgt · September 2003

GT supposed to have 6MT and 5EAT from the reports I've seen and people I've talked to. 3.0R type of vehicle supposedly seeing 5EAT only but a few reports open the idea for a manual as a mere possibility, not fully ruling the idea out. At this point, it's a big waiting game.

rsholland · September 2003

READ ALL ABOUT IT! SUBARU SUV TO DEBUT IN TOKYO!

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?http

/www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/ae_news_story.php?id=40081

Must be referring to the upcoming Tokyo Motor Show. Hmmm... So maybe the world debut will not be at the Detroit Show?? Interesting to note that the European press keeps referring to it as an "SUV," whereas the American press refers to it as a "crossover."

Bet it comes with a B11S-like front end and an alphanumeric name.

Bob

kens · September 2003

A 3.6L flat 6. Hmmm...

Ken

locke2c · September 2003

tasty, stuff one in the Legacy with a six speed manual.

-Colin

sweet_subie · September 2003

click on boxer 6

http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/gt/h6/index_f.html

subewannabe · September 2003

The ivory leather contrasted with the black dash and door trim looks really good. like the alcantara in the Audi S4. I guess Subaru figures that Japanese kids wont spill juice boxes and smear melted chocolate and ketchup all over the leather, unlike American kids, who need the black leather for camoflage.

mark

locke2c · September 2003

if tidy is huge bits of useless plastic obscuring the engine and other items... yes it's tidy.

I prefer functional. I know what an engine looks like, and sometimes I even work on them. why put a huge piece of plastic over it that does nothing but get in the way?

-Colin

lucien2 · September 2003

That expose in Automobile said that new design chief Andreas Zapatinas came on board after the B11S, which was penned by Fuore Design. Now, the B11S is supposed to sport the nose of a new corporate look, but I think Mr. Z may want to exert some of his own influence on what that look will be, and may revise or replace the concept that Fuore came up with.

sweet_subie · September 2003

read motor trend.....claims Outback is not much differentitated from legacy(like no raised roofline, carrier etc.) is because bigger SUV is coming for Fall 2004, much in line to compete with MDX, RX......

ateixeira · September 2003

3.6l is more than necessary for the base model 7 seater. I just hope pricing is reasonable. They have to compete with the Pilot, not the MDX!

I really think a 247hp 3.0l H6 would be find in the base model. Offer the 3.6l in the Limited or whatever.

I can't afford a $35k anything! Make it $28k, at least for starters.

-juice

kens · September 2003

I agree -- I don't care much for that plastic shroud that's put on engines to make it "look" neater. It only makes it harder to access. The current H6 also uses a similar shroud.

Ken

rsholland · September 2003

http://www.autoweb.com.au/start_/showall_/id_SUB/doc_sub0309221/c- ms/news/newsarticle.html

http://www.fastfoursvip.com/newsandevents_article.aspx?cat=Car+la- unches&view=336

subewannabe · September 2003

Bob, thanks for the Oz links.

We now have the next-gen released in Japan, NZ, UK, and "Oz" , with the 2.0 Turbo engine in the GT models, and, so far,no tranny options for the GT except the new 5 speed Sport Shift auto and no MT options for the 3.0 H6 Frankfurt autoshow Legacy or Outback. So, once again we wonder: will the USDM release GT or 3.0 be offerred with a MT? Will it be the same 5MT currently paired with the 2.5L turbo in the Forester XT? a new 6MT? Will the Premium Package be available with a MT?
I was caught a little off guard by the MSRP spread on the Oz release..from under $22 USD to over $37USD! Im starting to think I may be driving a Forester XT after all!
Mark

kens · September 2003

Mark,

The GT turbo does come with a 5MT. Where did you see that it didn't?

The 3.0R is the powerplant that is still mated just to an auto tranny.

Ken

rsholland · September 2003

The Oz-spec GT turbo only comes with a 5EAT sportshift, which seems strange.

Bob

sweet_subie · September 2003

that's apples to organges. see that current legacy in aus costs significantly higher that what it costs in u.s

rsholland · September 2003

The last 3 North American Subie intros were knockouts (WRX, STi, XT) each in their own way. I suspect the new North American-spec Legacy/Outback will follow the same pattern.

Having said that, and from what I've read so far (or what's been released), I don't get that same feeling with the new Legacy/Outback. Yeah, the 2.5 turbo is certainly a "wowzer," but I'm less impressed with the rest of the range. I really think that when SOA announces the new Legacy and Outback, there will be some (good) surprises that many here were not expecting.

For one, I think SOA will have an "STi-like" surprise, in that the H-6 will be larger than what's been introduced in other markets. There's been mention of a 3.6L H-6 for the crossover. I would not be at all surprised if that engine finds its way into the North American Legacy and Outback. That engine becomes the base engine for the crossover, with a lite-boost turbo 3.6 being offered on a "Premium Package" version.

I really think the crossover will be much like the Volvo XC90 in content and approach. I know that scares some people here, because that sounds "expensive," but I think that's what's going to occur. Even if it is XC-90-like, I do think it will be less expensive than the XC-90.

Bob

subewannabe · September 2003

kens,have you seen any info where the next Gen Legacy GT is being offerred anywhere except Japan with MT? The JDM GT Spec B is tuned up to 280 horses from 2.0 L...somehow I doubt that set up will pass US emissions testing! The OZ release with the MT is approx 260 horses, same as the Japan-release with the AT.I think the 2.5 turbo is a great choice for the Legacy. The NZ site lists the final drive ratio as 4.41,same as in the current Forester XT, and thats just too much low end /low mpg for a Legacy. I bet thats whats behind the 5 speed SportShift AT....longer top end legs.

Sweet subie,apples to oranges? the price range from lowest to highest is huge, whether you are in Oz or US. We are presumably getting 3 engine choices in US release ,and multiple trim levels with each engine, so wouldnt we expect a similar range here, even if the US pricing is lower across the board than current Oz and NZ pricing ( after currency exchange factored in)?

Mark

rsholland · September 2003

Assuming the 3.6 H-6 follows the 3.0 H-6 formula, it really shouldn't be much more costly to build than the 3.0 engine. Having 1 H-6 (of the same displacement) for both the North America Legacy/Outback and crossover streamlines production considerably, therefore I would think be more cost effective.

It also doesn't hurt to have a 3.6 H-6 up against a 3.5 V6 Maxima, for those on the fence deciding between those two cars.

Bob (dreaming as usual...)

kens · September 2003

My bad. I checked only the SOJ website (it's easy for me since I read Japanese). I didn't realize that the GT was not offered with a 5MT anywhere else.

Bob, you've been right with other predictions so I'm not going to doubt you any more. ;-) Perhaps it is a 3.0 turbo and not a 3.6?

I personally wouldn't be bummed if the GT only came with 5EAT for the US. Just reading all the press releases on the new Legacy, it's clear that Subaru has put in a lot of work in the 5EAT and is using it as competitive feature. The write up on the 5MT is pretty sparse to say the least. Also, the 5EAT for the GT will probably be coupled with VTD and not a VC.

Ken

subewannabe · September 2003

Bob,
A 3. 0 turbo, much less a 3.6, would blast Subaru into a whole different market ( folks with more $$ than sense?)Given the hp/displacement STi has gotten out of the 2.0L boxer, imagine what the after market upgrades would create with a 3 litre?
Serious tuners would need 'chutes on their rear bumpers! I like the idea of superior engineering getting more zoom out of a small dispacement 4 cylinder engine than the Big 3 get from 8. The better mpg when your cruising is a great bonus.

Mark

rsholland · September 2003

and not a 3.0 turbo, mainly because a 3.6 non-turbo would be cheaper to build/sell than a 3.0 turbo.

Again my gut tells me the crossover will get a larger than 3.0 engine, and to make this engine more cost effective, it would make sense to "spread it around," so to speak, hence also putting it in the Legacy and Outback too.

Now whether it's a 3.6 or some other size, that's a different matter. 3.6 has been mentioned by several sources, so there's probably some truth to that rumor.

Bob

rsholland · September 2003

that a larger H-6 for the Legacy/Outback is definitely going to happen, but it certainly could. There are other ways to make the North American models special. If you recall, that guy from the "other site" posted pictures and specs from a focus group that he went to showing an Outback GT and Legacy GT with a 6-speed. Maybe that's enough?

Just remember, by the time the North American versions debut, the car will be pretty much old news to Subie nuts like us. So I'm pretty sure SOA will want to offer some sort of pleasant surprise(s) for the faithful.

Lastly, if the crossover debuts the rumored 3.6 H-6, you can rest assured that engine will sooner or later find its way into other future Subies. Which models? Anything from a special Legacy (turbo STi?) to some as of yet unannounced model(s).

Bob

subewannabe · September 2003

given that the 2.5l Turbo is almost certain to be the engine in the new Legacy GT , rather than the 2.0l in current Pacific Rim releases, and they've already developed a 6MT for the 2.5 L in the WRX STi, theres no reason not to offer that same MT in the Legacy GT .That begs the question of why that 6MT wasnt offered in the Forester XT, but maybe it will be in next MY Premium Package given the very strong sales of that trim level.
Is the 3.0 in the new Euro release Legacy/ Outback a new engine? The press releases from Frankfurt sure make it sound that way. With an NA 3.0 designed from the start to emphasize low end grunt, that 3.0 in a 05 Outback would definitely be worth a hard look. I tend to use my roof rack a lot.The tradeoff: Legacy GT performance on Monday through Friday business driving versus weekend utility in an 3.0 Outback or Forester XT.

Like Bob points out, we will have so thoroughly analysed the cars by the time they get here, the only thing left to do will be to test drive them.I dont think anybody anticipated the XT performance, and I hope we get the same grins from the Legacy GT.

Mark

rsholland · September 2003

Not only did the XT surprise us, but the 2.5 STi too. Very few expected that.

So I do expect "our" Legacy/Outback to have some surprises.

Bob

kens · September 2003

Part of the low-end improvement with the new 3.0L engine is due to the closer gear ratios made possible by the 5EAT.

I'm sure SOA is reserving the 6MT for high-end perfomance models (STi) for now. I seriously doubt we'll see it move into the Forester XT next year. If anything, I'd see getting the premium package with 5MT more likely.

Ken

rsholland · September 2003

rsholland · September 2003

Go to the folowing thread on the "other site" in "News & Rumors."

Internet Survey, a sign of things to come?

Pixs and specs from a Subie focus group.

Bob

paisan · September 2003

Yum Yum. Turbo that bad-boy and I'll be in heaven!

-mike

jimmyp1 · September 2003

I can't find what you're talking about...

Jim

rsholland · September 2003

It's there. I'd post the link here, but Edmunds would likely delete it, and I would get another note from a some host saying I violated the member's agreement. I've had my share of those, thank you...

You may have to go back 45 days or so on that "other site" to find the link I mentioned.

Bob

sweet_subie · September 2003

someimtes i wonder we are obessed with subaru. I have an 2002 MPV & 01 OB. I have had a mitsu gallant before. I also owned a leg 95 (awesone one !).

I think clearly subaru quality stands out. Esp OB's suspension/shocks.

rsholland · September 2003

http://www.subaru.com.au/

subewannabe · September 2003

listed in the specs on the OZ site for the 2.0L turbo Legacy GT with the Sportshift 5EAT is 3.27, contrasted to the 4.44 for the Forester XT. That would explain estimated 0 to 60 times of approx. 7+ seconds, but should get significantly better gas milage than the XT and a screaming top speed (limited to approx 140 mph?). Definitely a different emphasis. Since the promotional info describes the new Liberty as being specially set up for driving on Aussie roads, I may try to locate the NZ and Japan sites and see if they report the same final reduction ratio.

Mark

subewannabe · September 2003

subaru new zealand specs are 4.44 final reduction and the 18" wheels and hi performance tires. then I recalled the apexjapan review, specifically
"Naturally we tried the GT as well, and while it was a little softer set up than the GT spec B, it was still very competent on the track. We think that for most people, the GT will provide the best balance of performance and comfort with its slightly softer suspension set-up and taller gearing. The 17 inch tyre and rim package would also be cheaper in terms of running costs in the long term, too - while still offering solid performance and handling."
http://www.apexjapan.com/

I guess Subaru must have developed , two different transmissions,two differentials, two different twin scroll turbos and two different suspension set-ups. NZ got B spec and Oz regular, while home "JDM" got both. Thats a lot of R & D $$!

US release next summer? will get ...drink cooler in the glove box? I need to get over this obsession !

Mark

rsholland · September 2003

If you recall, some guy from the "other site" recently went to a focus group to test possible names for future Subaru cars. One of the names mentioned, besides the alphanumeric ones, was "Surveyor" for the upcoming crossover.

In doing a little detective work, and thanks to Google, I did a search for "Subaru Surveyor" and ended up with a bunch of links pertaining to a Subaru telescope and the the Mars Surveyor!

http://www.subarutelescope.org/

So, maybe this could be the name of the new Subie crossover? There's obviously a very strong link here from a conceptual standpoint, so it would be perfect from a a marketing perspective.

With that in mind, and the great debate over whether to go alphanumeric or not, I'm betting we see a combination of both formats. I bet the "sporting" cars (Impreza & Legacy) will go alphanumeric, while the "outdoorsy" cars/SUVs (Forester, Baja, Outback and crossover) keep their adventurous names.

Craig, you're our resident rocket scientist here, do you know anything about this Subie telescope?

Bob

rsholland · September 2003

Picked up an '04 Outback brochure the other day, and noticed the new silver monotone Outback is not quite "monotone." It has a narrow black border that runs all along the bottom edge of the vehicle (front side & rear), just like the upcoming '05 Outbacks! It even wraps under the front fog lamp like the '05 model. Obviously Subaru preparing the public ready for the '05 model...

This is the only monotone color that does this. Also, there are more monotone colors available on the new Outback, including Seamist green.

Bob

sweet_subie · September 2003

http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=16923&amp- ;pg=1

ateixeira · September 2003

Only Bob would notice something so subtle. ;-)

Nice catch.

And BTW, you did scare me with the mention of the XC90. $40 grand is way more than I intend to spend.

Target the Pilot, high 20s to low 30s prices. Or the new Highlander, now that it also offers 3 rows (and it leads the import segment).

-juice

dcm61 · September 2003

I saw the Subaru telescope when I drove up to the summit of Mauna Kea on the Big Island of Hawaii. The Subaru telescope was closed to the public but I did tour one of the others. Saw some patches of snow too! Cold and windy at the summit; sunny and 85 degrees at the beach!

DaveM

dcm61 · September 2003

I picked up an '04 Outback brochure yesterday and also noticed the unpainted (black) lower bumpers and unpainted (black) side skirts on the monotone silver base OBW.

Bob - As I reported a month or so ago, I saw a Champagne Opal monotone L.L. Bean with unpainted lower bumpers and side skirts (in my '04 OB wheels post). Edit: here's the post dcm61 "Subaru Legacy/Outback" Aug 28, 2003 7:12pm

I also noticed, like Bob, that the monotone '04's have the similar bumper / side cladding treatment as the pictures of '05's that we've seen. It seems that Subaru has a tendency to incorporate subtle details of the new model in the last year of the current model. The '99 OBW Limited was unique in that it had Titanium bumpers and cladding. The '00 (start of new model) was introduced with Titanium cladding.

Speaking of wheels, I've seen all models of the OBW except the VDC on the dealer lot.

Base = '00 to '04 base OB wheels
Limited = '03 H6 wheels without gold accents
35th anniv (cloth H6) = Projected '04 Baja Turbo wheels
L.L. Bean = '03 Baja wheels
VDC = supposedly the same wheels as 35th anniv.

DaveM

ateixeira · September 2003

I won't challenge our Encyclopedia's data. ;-)

Unpainted? Really? Don't tease me now...

That would be excellent. Gimme an '05 H6 5 speed Sportshift with unpainted bumpers!

-juice

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