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Comments
MNSteve - Sunny and 47 degrees today
Craig
MNSteve
I will definitely pass on the turbo if the gas mileage is not good, but would definitely get another H6 again. The one in my 02 LL Bean has been great.
By the way, the 05 H6 has 250HP. That's 38HP more than I'm used to!
Craig
So, what does it mean ?
On Saturday, our fun but troublesome Forester 2000 L went back to the dealer for the last time. We now have a "bill of sale" for an as yet unborn 2005 Forester XT. The deal is based on the 2004 model and price, but dealer will hold this price into the 2005 MY, and as we dont absolutely need a second car now, it can wait for a few months. I think I can use this deal against anything in the Subie range.
As we have a few months to figure out what next, thoughts have turned once again to the Outback XT and how it will stack up aginst the Forester XT. Just some idle questions and comments based, as we wait for final specs and prices (soon, soon...please Subaru!!)
- does the cloth model base XT really exist and will Canada get it? Some conflict on the "official" sube pages both in Canada and US (need-desire, subaru.ca, press releases)
- does the OBXT have WRX style seats. I read "sports seats with integrated headrests" somewhere (anyone who has actually seen the XT will be able to answer this)?
- how deep is the tint (saves me money against the FXT, which is not tinted as far as I know, or at least is very lightly tinted)
- what is "pre-wired for towing", and what is it worth (if I was to do likewise with the Forester)?
- will it be priced so as not to steal sales from the FXT? My guess is the base XT will be within cnd$1000 of the base FXT above or below (remember our FXT gets the moonroof, the base OBXT likely does not). A very close price would be good for me, though maybe bad for the FXT (not that it matters).
- how close to the N/A 4 cyl base model does the base 5MT XT have to be to provide logical jumps in the price range. I'd say no more than cnd$4000. Again sticking out my neck, here the OB base 4cyl N/A will be no more than 32995, i.e. $1000 over the current model.
- will the auto XT limited be priced to keep some daylight between it and the 3.0R.
- in general, how much are people willing to pay for an Outback, however good the new model turns out to be. Where does the range begin and end. Sorry for Canadian prices again, but if all but the N/A 4 cyl are above $40K (drive away price), then it will be nice try no cigar.
- I may be very wrong here, but I figure the OBXT will drive exactly like the FXT, given the same powertrain/tranny/ratios?? I'd guess the "210" hp Forester and the "250" hp Outback are just Subaru marketing speak for the same "235-ish" hp motor in the current FXT. There could be minor differences in programming, but I cant see what sense it makes to produce indiv model variants for the already wonderful 2.5T. Actually reminds me of the 1.8T VW motor that comes with slightly diff hp figures depending on the model.
That's enogh speculation for now.
JP
Cheers Pat.
I don't think the output of the FXT and OBXT will be the same. Even though the engine block is the same, the intercooler is different. I'm not sure about the turbo, but that can be different too. Also, the OBXT/Legacy GT uses a dual exahust. I'm sure the differences add up to a different output. Think about the case with the STi.
The seats on the OBXT will probably not be the WRX-style seats. The auto show models didn't have it, plus Subaru mentions an active head restraint system with the new model.
As for pricing, I have no clue where Subaru intends to place the OBXT yet.
Ken
Output is 250hp and 250 lb-ft, we already know that. Both stated figures are higher than the XT, and we know the intercooler is different, the intake plenum looks different, plus there's the dual exhaust. I doubt output is the same.
With more equipment (side curtains and projector beam lights) plus a bigger platform it should cost at least a grand more than the F-XT.
The tint didn't look dark in Chicago, but we don't know if that's how it'll look when it hits dealers. The Baja is darker, for instance.
Pre-wired for towing means the harness just plugs right in, no splicing wires. This means a handy person could install it without professional help.
A lot of the other stuff is not even determined yet. My guess is the turbos will cost at least $1-2 grand less than the H6 equivalent, and at least $1-2 grand more then the base H4 equivalent.
-juice
"Fuji pushes Subaru to go upscale
New wagon, higher prices are part of strategy
Subaru, once advertised as "inexpensive and built to stay that way," has considered drastic changes, including fattening its vehicles' prices substantially and even jettisoning its brand name, in an effort to move upscale. [IMAGE]
View story"
It might answer some of our questions....
Steve
-juice
Cheers Pat.
Steve
***Subaru won't reveal prices of its new wagon until closer to its 2005 introduction, but Doll says it will be between $30,000 and $37,000.
Subaru prices have been climbing steadily for years. Its six-cylinder L.L. Bean Outback wagon is priced in the low $30,000s. Optional turbo engines added last year pushed Subaru's top-of-the-line Forester wagon near $30,000. But its incentives also have been rising, albeit less aggressively than the competition's.****
In fact, Saab could function as that division!
30-37K, that's tough. On the other hand, I can't believe they'll price it so high and still expect to grow volume (as that LafayetteJC article said they did.)
They have not done this in other markets why would they do it here, Legacys and Outbacks in the high twentys and low thirties just are not going to fly, and I would think that that the marketers will know that.
As well Subaru used to have this market niche pretty well all to itself, it is now getting crowded with an alternative selection of AWD vehicles.
Cheers Pat.
Why? Because they will not sell for those prices. You are well, well beyond Acura TL/G35 and entry level BMW and Audi prices. These cars are the same size as the TSX, not the TL, they should not and cannot be priced in the TL/G35 range.
So, what will happen? Same as what happened to the Chrysler Pacifica. $35k retail, $27k selling price. Massive rebates almost right away. Extremely poor resale, bad image, failed marketing, eroding profits. Anyone who pays close to MSRP for an early model will faint when they see resale values in a couple of years and they'll leave the Subaru brand in droves.
I'll also predict that sales will drop 5-10% rather than increasing, if those prices hold up.
Now, I think they're plain wrong, or maybe they're only looking at the H6 models. No way, no how, could an Outback 2.5i fetch $30 grand.
On the other hand, that would knock me right off the fence and I'd run, not walk, to my nearest dealer to buy a Forester XT before they move the next generation of that vehicle "upscale".
Sheesh.
-juice
Craig
-Brian
Mark
Cheers Pat.
I basically want a 7 seater "Sport", equipped like the Baja, moonroof but cloth. H6 with SportShift or manual, either way. Keep it at $30k or so, street prices will make that affordable to us.
-juice
The H6 Bean/VDC will continue to be a low volume niche player. Currently too expensive for a Subaru. Only those who really want it will drop that kind of cash. Plus it will be outgunned by the Turbo. I wonder if they considered dropping it altogether?
The volume seller and highest profile model will be the OB XT - provided they get the pricing right. Which means MSRP here just has to start in the 36-38K range for the XT base (or significantly under 30K in the US??) with the usual subaru increments for auto and PP/leather.
One more thought - the 2.5i with VVT @ 190hp or an H6 option with either MT or auto in a value priced base model OB would have both been very attractive to me. As I contemplate my third 2.5l subie, I just cant get my head around another go around with the same old N/A 2.5. Part of the fun of getting a new car is to get something that feels/drives "different". If subaru had offered this in an affordable N/A engine I could have passed on the turbo (prem gas, poor mpg, etc)
Craig
Head gasket and clutch issues with this engine's predecessor also put me off.
But will give it a go when there's one to test. The lower weight will help.
James
-juice
Based on what we know, how much more over the current Forester XT price would anyone be willing to give Subaru today to own the new Outback XT? I'm cross shopping but going no more than about US$1000 over to even consider the OB.
JP
MNSteve
Thanks
- spinaker
The Outback 3.0R VDC
-Brian
That Mitsu Grandis looks like the son of a Quest and a Matrix. )
-juice
Mark
If all the automakers had of gotten their fingers out years ago when the Arabs started putting the sqeeze on us with oil, hybrids and fuel cells would have been old hat now and gas would be about 50 cents a gallon. Instead like always, instead of leading the pack they are desperately playing catch up.
Cheers Pat.
I can't really see that anything but even further supply constraint would push us towards them faster than we are going now. It sure isn't performance that is leading us there today!
And gas prices are heavily based on taxes, even in the US and Canada. everywhere else, even moreso.
~c
Claims total custody of the B9 ....
Lets face it, it is only in the last couple of years that a serious concerted effort has been made to really get alternative methods of propulsion.
50 cents a gallon was more a metaphor than reality, but the point is taxes aside, when the middle east no longer has us by the short and curlies will oil be more realistically priced.
Cheers Pat.
..bah, that's a Cafe topic.
I'm glad to see Subaru working on hybrids, they'll be important someday. could we please get variable valve timing on ALL gasoline engines right now though? thank you.
~c
BTW, can't recall when the vehicle is expected in the US, but an article from my local dealership's website suggests "the 2005 Subaru Outback is expected to go on sale in Canada in early June, 2004."
http://www.westboro.subarudealer.ca/interface/Subaru02/NewsDetail- 02.asp?WebPageID=4749&WebSiteID=215&ArticleID=851
I find it strange as we usually get vehicles at least a few months after they are avail in the USA. Hmmmm.....
Can't wait though!! My 00 Outback is looking for a new home!
Hope to see something from Subaru on a 7-seater soon, because my wife is beginning to push me towards serious consideration of the new Ford Freestyle....a new 7-seater due to be available in the Fall, 04. Ford is hardly my top choice, but the 7-seater option, without going to full blown SUV or...dare I say.....a MINI-VAN... is attractive to her because of its practicality. My in-laws don't drive anymore, which means we have to juggle our driving to get the entire family somewhere.
My roommate in college had a CRX HF, those were cool but not very popular. The Si was a lot quicker and cost only slightly more.
I'm with Colin, think hybrid for MY2007. How about AVCS now, for 2005? Then double AVCS for 2006 with Direct Injection to boot.
Even hybrids will still have gas engines, they may as well have these efficiencies ready by then.
-juice
PS C&D's Chevy Aveo was quicker than the Prius and the new Jetta TDI 0-60
As for hybrids, I agree with Pat in the sense that manufacturers should have been working on this years ago. However, since they did not publicly acknowledge this sevelopment until now, I think Subaru has no choice but to get in the game reasonalby soon. With Lexus, Toyota, and Honda already out there on mainstream vehicles, Subaru has to get involved to stay in the game. They could even use it to offset some of the bad press thye received from the environmental groups regarding the OB.
Mark
As for pricing they have been told that the base price will stay approx. the same, at worst there will be a minimal increase, the turbo will be about the same premium as the XT is over the regular Forester.
Thats a difference of $1900CDN on the base XT to $3400CDN on the premium XT, you can verify this pricing at www.subaru.ca.
He said that Subaru is accutely aware of the danger of pricing themselves out of the market.
Cheers Pat.
-juice
Love the interior!
Bob
Do I hear chantings "Me Wants!", "Me Wants!"? ;-)
-Dave