I strongly believe SoA has big plans behind dropping legacy wagon
Don't delude yourself. It just a small company feeling a squeeze in the market and trying to survive after its well-below expectation results on their latest high-profile launch (Tribeca).
I don't necessarily agree with sweet_subie's statement that the demise of the Legacy wagon is an indication of some, but I don't think the Tribeca's failure to launch has anything to do with it, either.
The Legacy wagon shares 90+% percent of its parts with the Outback, so I'm assuming there is minimal opportunity cost to manufacture 10-15K Legacy wagons every year. I'm also assuming that the turbo wagons have a pretty good profit margin.
I don't see the causation, I guess. Can you elaborate? What would one have to do with the other?
Well, they have been scrambling to consolidate their Legacy/Outback lineup for quite a while already, especially in turbo trims. In '06 MY they dropped manuals on wagons and non-limited trims (cloth no sunroof) on GT/XT. In '07 they reduced number of colors available to both outback and legacies (no red, for example). They expanded lower trims somewhat by playing with Special Editions and now are introducing some new LL Bean trims. Obviously to capture higher end of low end of performance. Apparently having these trims costs high enough to have an incentive to shut lowest volumes that are also costly enough. I don't know rules about emission and crash-test certification - perhaps somebody could shed some light how "distinct" trims are identified for those.
It coincides with their failed "upmarket" project, which I think had merit, but was poorly executed - they aimed at wrong brands and did not provide "upmarket" featers quickly enough, or at all. Moreover, after initial excitement, they quickly abandoned marketing of the turbo trims - I have not seen a single commercial touting hoerpower, or other performance of Legacy since early '05 (and it was outback, by the way being compared to porche amongst others :sick: ). There is ZERO brand awareness for performance midsize car where I live (FL). Someone planning of buying Acura TSX, Volvo S40/V50, Saab 9-3 aero, or Audi A4 2.0 (not many people, but there are some) would probably have no clue that Subaru actually manufacturs midsize car with 240+ hp and charges 3-10 grand less than those guys. Similarly with Camcord V6 buyers. An then they're complaing that there is a cold weather perception. Of course there is, if you they don't support anything that has a fighting chance to combat it here.
Tribeca had highest cash incentive by far in '06, which of course indicates that they overshot the price and overanticipated the demand. They are selling rougly HALF of what they hoped for. In any measure I would call it a failure. And it was a costly project. When you miss numbers by this much on your newest project, at this size, it may threaten your livelyhood.
Their saving grace was Impreza, which I think took everybody by surprise. I think it's actually lower 2.5i that is doing very well. WRX has a steady following and isn't going anywhere, either. There is probably a lot of '08 anticipation, both curious and anxious, as many are almost afraid to find out what it will be.
I love my WRX wagon. Getting ready to replace it within 2 years, probably less. Want something larger, but equally spirited - same handling, similar performance, just a but more heardroom, legroom and longer hood in front of me - of course I want wagon, of course manual. There is NOTHING Subaru offered in '05, '06, now it looks they are quitting offering anything that would be just one compromise (transmission).
Unless the new WRX is something just like current Legacy, which it will probably be not, I feel I will have to leave the brand. Not many places to go, but there are just a few. All more expensive, both at face value and over time. I'm disappointed and almost depressed. All I ask myself - am I only WRX wagon owner who wanted to move to Legacy wthout losing a thing?
In that size and at the price that is acceptable in that market a usual Subaru AWD system is probably too costly. I wonder whether a part time engage-by-pull-handle system is feasible? Of course that usually presumes a fore and aft engine placement also.....almost never the case in the Justy class of car. The space efficiency of the subcompacts is only possible with transverse mounting.
Of course with a hybrid system and small electric traction motors at the rear, transverse would not matter. But how could Subaru finance such a project without substantial help from Toyota? And a hybrid price premium would be a major problem.
My wife and I picked up a Lexus IS 250 AWD this weekend. This is my wife's car and she loves it. With my daughter driving the Forester, me driving the 06 Tribeca, and 13 wks with no 07 Tribeca(the way we wanted it) in sight, my wife wanted to look for a car.
I wanted to stay with the brand but the dealer and SDC let us down and we decided to look elsewhere.
I test drove an RX 350. The lexus has Subaru beat on interior luxury but my Tribeca's handling was superior. I plan to stay with Subaru for my cars.
Subaru needs to catch up with respect to standard features and options - but they're not that far behind - and hopefully 08 will be a good year for Tribeca. I plan to get an 08 when my lease comes due in December.
The problem is that I have tasted the forbidden fruit.
I have always liked the look of the RX-330/350, and finally test drove one last year. It was extremely comfortable, and I like the interior room and decent gas mileage. But the handling was not great (think Buick) and the interior styling did not agree with me -- a general problem I have with Toyotas. The metallic finishes and sans serif lettering make me feel like I have descended into a HI-FI receiver from the 80s. Just not my cup of tea.
I do hope Subaru gets the 08 Tribeca right. It has a lot of potential, and they have had a couple years to re-learn the vehicle strategy. With any luck, they might have a home run this time around.
Exactly - yet I see you need to be foreign born to actually grasp the concept All I hear at my work is people giving me grief about my "grocery getter" and not lauging when I say that it handles better than most "sports coupes" or roadsters.
I ask because a friend of mine can get me VIP invites to the MotorWeek awards and breakfast, plus free passes and stuff. He's John Davis' boss, LOL. Our daughters go to school together, and he said if I pay the plane ticket, I can crash in his room.
So if Subaru is gonna show something, I may be up for it. Plus I could meet the Chicago-area Crew.
Listen, Subaru has always been a follower in my opinion. Traditionally, Honda has been as well, though both brands have taken more risks in recent years (Baja, Ridgeline, Tribeca styling).
Think about all the Subaru features that come to market 1-3 model years after they are "new" on another make. They rarely lead in anything. Their AWD systems are second to none, but that is tried and true technology that is evolutionary, not revolutionary. Styling is one area where Subaru is very conservative, except for the Tribeca -- but I don't consider that daring (more on that below).
I guess I have yet to see a real whiz-bang slam-dunk Subaru first in recent years, that would make me think they are an independent leader on the edge of technology or styling. They seem to be more of a predictable, deliberate company.
As far as styling, I have a hard time classifying the Tribeca at all. Some may say they took a risk on the styling, but I never saw a cohesive radical theme in the vehicle that would make me think they went in a new direction. All they did, in my opinion, is craft questionable and polarizing styling onto a typical SUV/CUV shape. Not a whole lot of innovation there. Whether you liked the look or not, it just wasn't a radical departure. It was different to be sure, but not radical.
Well, to be fair, Zapatinas was hired when the hard points of the model were already set in stone. So it wasn't a ground-up design. We'll never even get a chance to see the cohesive theme you mention.
Also, looking back, the XT and the SVX were very radical designs. Subaru may not be a technological leader, but quirkiness has always been part of their DNA.
Are perfect examples of why Subaru doesn't take risks anymore. As much as *I* loved those cars (owned 2 XT6s, 1 SVX) they were shuned by everyone as "out there" and didn't sell well. As a manufacturer, if your "out there" designs sell, great, if they don't you have to drop back 10 yards and punt the ball, give it a more conservative shot the next time around.
I like it so far, looking forward to the NY show when they unveil them.
"That would be a disaster. No Legacy wagon and no Impreza wagon??? I'm done with Subaru then."
Don't get too worked up... all I'm trying to say is that we don't know what the model mix will be, and we don't know if the spyshot is of a US model or for some other market. I'd like to see a turbo 5-dr hatch Impreza here, and I think we will. We've had very few leads, other than North America will get a sedan, probably exclusive to our shores.
One of the true newshounds (Jon_in_CT) over in another forum posted this patent application. FHI applied for a US patent in Sept. '05, published about 10 months ago, for a sliding door with a special safety feature. Note that the picture is for illustration to show how the door works, not to show what vehicle it will appear on. (That's a Subaru Sambar drawing, BTW.) Also note the word "Suzuki" that appears is the inventor's name, not the automaker applying for the patent.
I kinda feel like Subaru's gonna have something exciting for us by the '09 model year, and apparently with a continued emphasis on safety, which I think is a good thing. I'd definitely buy a nice AWD Subie van... just hope it comes to market before I'm in the market.
I just got back from it, and yes, they have an '08 Outback 2.5i on a display turntable, so you couldn't sit in it.
It was painted a beautiful dark bronze (a new color) with light tan lower cladding. The overall impact was very good.
Oh, the new grille in person is okay, but nothing to write home about. Is it better or worse than the '07 grille? In my opinion worse. I would have much preferred the the grille shown on JDM models, but I guess this is the "new-and-improved aero look" we can expect from now on in. So far I'm not that impressed.
Mini-van, is generally for hauling around kids. Mom or Dad needs to be reaching back administering dicipline, a bottle, a drink, a burger, etc while driving, you can't really be driving a stick at the same time.
My dad could combine food, drinks, discipline, and MT gear shifts into the routine, no problem. In fact, anything could be combined with discipline when appropriate! The 4th-5th upshift easily blends into a smack upside the head...
Comments
• The Outback and Legacy only come in automatics.
• The only Outback sold is the XT.
• The only Impreza sold is the WRX-STI.
• No turbo Foresters are sold, although they offer 3 trim levels—but all are automatics.
• Only a 5+2 Tribeca is sold.
http://www.subaru.com.mx/modellneup.html
Bob
Don't delude yourself. It just a small company feeling a squeeze in the market and trying to survive after its well-below expectation results on their latest high-profile launch (Tribeca).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The Legacy wagon shares 90+% percent of its parts with the Outback, so I'm assuming there is minimal opportunity cost to manufacture 10-15K Legacy wagons every year. I'm also assuming that the turbo wagons have a pretty good profit margin.
I don't see the causation, I guess. Can you elaborate? What would one have to do with the other?
It coincides with their failed "upmarket" project, which I think had merit, but was poorly executed - they aimed at wrong brands and did not provide "upmarket" featers quickly enough, or at all. Moreover, after initial excitement, they quickly abandoned marketing of the turbo trims - I have not seen a single commercial touting hoerpower, or other performance of Legacy since early '05 (and it was outback, by the way being compared to porche amongst others :sick: ). There is ZERO brand awareness for performance midsize car where I live (FL). Someone planning of buying Acura TSX, Volvo S40/V50, Saab 9-3 aero, or Audi A4 2.0 (not many people, but there are some) would probably have no clue that Subaru actually manufacturs midsize car with 240+ hp and charges 3-10 grand less than those guys. Similarly with Camcord V6 buyers. An then they're complaing that there is a cold weather perception. Of course there is, if you they don't support anything that has a fighting chance to combat it here.
Tribeca had highest cash incentive by far in '06, which of course indicates that they overshot the price and overanticipated the demand. They are selling rougly HALF of what they hoped for. In any measure I would call it a failure. And it was a costly project. When you miss numbers by this much on your newest project, at this size, it may threaten your livelyhood.
Their saving grace was Impreza, which I think took everybody by surprise. I think it's actually lower 2.5i that is doing very well. WRX has a steady following and isn't going anywhere, either. There is probably a lot of '08 anticipation, both curious and anxious, as many are almost afraid to find out what it will be.
I love my WRX wagon. Getting ready to replace it within 2 years, probably less. Want something larger, but equally spirited - same handling, similar performance, just a but more heardroom, legroom and longer hood in front of me - of course I want wagon, of course manual. There is NOTHING Subaru offered in '05, '06, now it looks they are quitting offering anything that would be just one compromise (transmission).
Unless the new WRX is something just like current Legacy, which it will probably be not, I feel I will have to leave the brand. Not many places to go, but there are just a few. All more expensive, both at face value and over time. I'm disappointed and almost depressed. All I ask myself - am I only WRX wagon owner who wanted to move to Legacy wthout losing a thing?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Of course with a hybrid system and small electric traction motors at the rear, transverse would not matter. But how could Subaru finance such a project without substantial help from Toyota? And a hybrid price premium would be a major problem.
Think back a bit, and the Outback was pitched as an alternative to the Explorer. So the SUVs it was meant to replace have grown, and it hasn't.
They could put the OB on the Tribeca chassis, and keep the Legacy the current size, to distinguish them more.
-juice
2018 430i Gran Coupe
No, you're not alone - my husband was thinking to upgrade to Legacy GT wagon from WRX wagon in a couple of years.
All cars in our family have always been wagons (and 1 hatchback in early years). We just find sedans not practical enough for our lifestyle.
-mike
I wanted to stay with the brand but the dealer and SDC let us down and we decided to look elsewhere.
I test drove an RX 350. The lexus has Subaru beat on interior luxury but my Tribeca's handling was superior. I plan to stay with Subaru for my cars.
Subaru needs to catch up with respect to standard features and options - but they're not that far behind - and hopefully 08 will be a good year for Tribeca. I plan to get an 08 when my lease comes due in December.
The problem is that I have tasted the forbidden fruit.
Charlie
I do hope Subaru gets the 08 Tribeca right. It has a lot of potential, and they have had a couple years to re-learn the vehicle strategy. With any luck, they might have a home run this time around.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
I wonder if they will bring one here.
I ask because a friend of mine can get me VIP invites to the MotorWeek awards and breakfast, plus free passes and stuff. He's John Davis' boss, LOL. Our daughters go to school together, and he said if I pay the plane ticket, I can crash in his room.
So if Subaru is gonna show something, I may be up for it. Plus I could meet the Chicago-area Crew.
-juice
-Brian
http://cata.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=19
Bob
Hey Bob, you goin' to the DC Auto Show? We might go up on Sunday. You said it was pretty good last year, right?
-juice
Think about all the Subaru features that come to market 1-3 model years after they are "new" on another make. They rarely lead in anything. Their AWD systems are second to none, but that is tried and true technology that is evolutionary, not revolutionary. Styling is one area where Subaru is very conservative, except for the Tribeca -- but I don't consider that daring (more on that below).
I guess I have yet to see a real whiz-bang slam-dunk Subaru first in recent years, that would make me think they are an independent leader on the edge of technology or styling. They seem to be more of a predictable, deliberate company.
As far as styling, I have a hard time classifying the Tribeca at all. Some may say they took a risk on the styling, but I never saw a cohesive radical theme in the vehicle that would make me think they went in a new direction. All they did, in my opinion, is craft questionable and polarizing styling onto a typical SUV/CUV shape. Not a whole lot of innovation there. Whether you liked the look or not, it just wasn't a radical departure. It was different to be sure, but not radical.
Also, looking back, the XT and the SVX were very radical designs. Subaru may not be a technological leader, but quirkiness has always been part of their DNA.
-juice
I like it so far, looking forward to the NY show when they unveil them.
-mike
Which rarely happens to me as I prefer conservative styling overall, and usually need some time to let the styling to grow on me.
That new Impreza is soooo bland... I'm disappointed. And frameless windows are gone
Although I suspect it's close.
Bob
Dual is my Vote.
-mike
That would be a disaster. No Legacy wagon and no Impreza wagon??? I'm done with Subaru then.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Don't get too worked up... all I'm trying to say is that we don't know what the model mix will be, and we don't know if the spyshot is of a US model or for some other market. I'd like to see a turbo 5-dr hatch Impreza here, and I think we will. We've had very few leads, other than North America will get a sedan, probably exclusive to our shores.
I kinda feel like Subaru's gonna have something exciting for us by the '09 model year, and apparently with a continued emphasis on safety, which I think is a good thing. I'd definitely buy a nice AWD Subie van... just hope it comes to market before I'm in the market.
It was painted a beautiful dark bronze (a new color) with light tan lower cladding. The overall impact was very good.
Oh, the new grille in person is okay, but nothing to write home about. Is it better or worse than the '07 grille? In my opinion worse. I would have much preferred the the grille shown on JDM models, but I guess this is the "new-and-improved aero look" we can expect from now on in. So far I'm not that impressed.
Bob
-mike
Bob - cool, the 08 is there, then. No access? Bummer. Did you ask?
Impreza looks too plain, that could be a Suzuki Reno.
-juice
Bob
Perhaps they are applying for a US patent because the laws here are stronger. We never see whatever this is on a US product.
I will be ready for a new mini-van by 2009.
John
-juice
-mike
You are right, sales would be low. But probably no different than Forester and Outbacks.
FWIW, the Mazda 5 MT is virtually unavailable because the demand/supply is out of wack.
John
Mini-van, is generally for hauling around kids. Mom or Dad needs to be reaching back administering dicipline, a bottle, a drink, a burger, etc while driving, you can't really be driving a stick at the same time.
-mike
I drive a stick all the time and dole out juice boxes, tisses and occasionally the "You better not make me come back there!" threats.
-mike
-juice
Lol, pretty soon that will be big time illegal.
John
2018 430i Gran Coupe